Jalen
Smash Cadet
Very good match-up thread.
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Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread
- Thread starter stealth3654
- Start date
stealth3654
Smash Lord
Thanks, I try 
.
BTW, I'm going out of town until late this Saturday. So we will move on to: Fox!
We all know about the forward tilt to up smash on Fox. So let's try and discuss how to play the match-up without the ftilt, what Fox can do to avoid the ftilt, pros/cons, stage CP/ban, ect. Let's keep this discussion going until I get back.
Discuss!!!
.BTW, I'm going out of town until late this Saturday. So we will move on to: Fox!
We all know about the forward tilt to up smash on Fox. So let's try and discuss how to play the match-up without the ftilt, what Fox can do to avoid the ftilt, pros/cons, stage CP/ban, ect. Let's keep this discussion going until I get back.
Discuss!!!
clowsui
Smash Legend
Why would you ever play this without the ftilt? >__>;
Watch out for his dair, nair, and utilt.
I'll talk more later.
I'll talk more later.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Avoid his u-tilt lock. It can combo Sheik until 52% with no DI.
That said, if you can DI be prepared to eat 30% at low percents.
A good way to avoid this is to not get above him.
That said, if you can DI be prepared to eat 30% at low percents.
A good way to avoid this is to not get above him.
Tristan_win
Not dead.
The only piece advise I can give about fox really is that after 100% or so he has a true combo from dair into usmash or dsmash so watch out for that
Actually dair starts to combo into dsmash/usmash much earlier than that......around the 70% range. It also combos into his utilt at mid percentages so it sets him up nicely for juggling opportunities against Sheik. Dair is really overused by Fox players though, the more knowledgeable players will only use dair as a punisher.
Fox is fast as f***. He has an AC bair, fair, and uair........and nair and dair aren't even noticeably laggy. He has a frame 2 jab, frame 3 utilt, and frame 4 dsmash.
You do have to be rather cautious in the matchup because Fox can get you into usmash range pretty quick so make sure you take care of him effeciently and effortlessly.
It's really too bad we **** him so much with ftilt.......otherwise this would be one of the most enjoyable matches in Brawl. It's still a hard counter matchup though.
What I want to discuss is if it's closer to 70-30, or if we all still feel that it's more around 80-20.
Fox is fast as f***. He has an AC bair, fair, and uair........and nair and dair aren't even noticeably laggy. He has a frame 2 jab, frame 3 utilt, and frame 4 dsmash.
You do have to be rather cautious in the matchup because Fox can get you into usmash range pretty quick so make sure you take care of him effeciently and effortlessly.
It's really too bad we **** him so much with ftilt.......otherwise this would be one of the most enjoyable matches in Brawl. It's still a hard counter matchup though.
What I want to discuss is if it's closer to 70-30, or if we all still feel that it's more around 80-20.
I'm really bad with matchup numbers.
Sheik ***** Fox because of her ftilt. Without it, Fox might actually have an advantage. But with it, it's not a matchup worth playing for Fox.
Sheik ***** Fox because of her ftilt. Without it, Fox might actually have an advantage. But with it, it's not a matchup worth playing for Fox.
iLight
Smash Lord
I say 80-20 sheik's favor
on fox, i discovered an easy way to make sure you don't mess up at the start of the f-tilt combo. In this case you can very easily do f-tilt -> jab twice, and from there easily just continue on with the regular f-tilt's following his DI till about 100 then with the u-smash to finish. That's about all that is needed to defeat a fox.
on fox, i discovered an easy way to make sure you don't mess up at the start of the f-tilt combo. In this case you can very easily do f-tilt -> jab twice, and from there easily just continue on with the regular f-tilt's following his DI till about 100 then with the u-smash to finish. That's about all that is needed to defeat a fox.
#HBC | Scary
Hype Incarnate
I recently played Fenrir's Fox and he ran circles around me once you can't rely on the Ftilt lock. On a stage like Yoshi's, or a stage with a decently to really high ceiling, he does pretty well against Sheik just because he can kill about as early as we can kill him, plus he can kill better horizontally
As previously mentioned, yes, FOX IS HILARIOUSLY FAST, and the moves that don't AC aren't exactly slow, so he'll build damage quick, and he can pester with lasers. I think we can crouch it, I'm not sure lol. Edgeguarding Fox can be a little tricky because he's far more versitile than Falco thanks to DJ Fair, Shine, and varying use of Firefox and Illusion. If he gets into a predictable pattern, Fox is as goo as dead
Another thing to look out for would be the JJ-cancel. Its their jab-jab cancel that can lead into so many things. I'm not sure what Sheik's options are since they aren't done testing but if Sheik gets knocked off the ground as it's being done, Fox has followups like grabs, tilts, and even Usmash. I think we can beat it with our own quick jab, but it needs testing.
Overall, I think it's 70-30 Sheik's favor with Ftilt lock since it's so devastating to Fox. But Fox can kill just as well as us if he can get by the lock.
Without Ftilt lock, I'd probably say either even or 55-45 Sheik since she has followups after Ftilt and can gimp a little better than Fox; although is doesn't need to be said how scary shine is offstage.
Also, beawre of FLAMEDASHING! This hurts Sheik, enough said.
As previously mentioned, yes, FOX IS HILARIOUSLY FAST, and the moves that don't AC aren't exactly slow, so he'll build damage quick, and he can pester with lasers. I think we can crouch it, I'm not sure lol. Edgeguarding Fox can be a little tricky because he's far more versitile than Falco thanks to DJ Fair, Shine, and varying use of Firefox and Illusion. If he gets into a predictable pattern, Fox is as goo as dead
Another thing to look out for would be the JJ-cancel. Its their jab-jab cancel that can lead into so many things. I'm not sure what Sheik's options are since they aren't done testing but if Sheik gets knocked off the ground as it's being done, Fox has followups like grabs, tilts, and even Usmash. I think we can beat it with our own quick jab, but it needs testing.
Overall, I think it's 70-30 Sheik's favor with Ftilt lock since it's so devastating to Fox. But Fox can kill just as well as us if he can get by the lock.
Without Ftilt lock, I'd probably say either even or 55-45 Sheik since she has followups after Ftilt and can gimp a little better than Fox; although is doesn't need to be said how scary shine is offstage.
Also, beawre of FLAMEDASHING! This hurts Sheik, enough said.
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
Without the FTilt lock: 50:50 (though why you wouldn't use it is beyond me)
With the FTilt lock: 75:25
With the FTilt lock: 75:25
stealth3654
Smash Lord
Hey, I managed to find a computer I can check smash boards on .
It's nice that we are acutally discussing the Fox match-up. Don't forget to talk about stage CP/bans, though.
.It's nice that we are acutally discussing the Fox match-up. Don't forget to talk about stage CP/bans, though.
Fox gets ***** by Ftilt; this is worse than Fox v Pika.
Without Ftilt, Fox has a slight advantage (nothing huge). Just smack him with Ftilt once he's at 25%. I don't know. What else is there to discuss?
Really, there are two things Sheik needs to do.
1) Get Fox to 25%
2) Ftilt x n -> Usmash
If you don't Ftilt lock, this is a really fun matchup. Either way, Fox will just run and laser and run and laser and pester and get in tiny hits that lead to 20-40% combos or DI chases. It adds up if you're not careful; so it's not unwinnable for Fox.
A few moves you need to watch out for:
1) Dair: Fox mains are actually getting good with this move, so don't get hit by it - you'll eat Utilt, jabs, grabs, Dsmash, Usmash at various percents, and then you'll get chased and punished if your DI/tech gets read.
2) Nair: This move stuffs so many things it's ridiculous. I don't play Fox v Sheik, but this is a staple in many matchups that lets Fox beat out otherwise tough defenses should he be forced to approach.
3) Utilt: This clanks with the best of smashes and beats out a bunch of other moves. Just be careful if Fox is facing away from you; he's not that vulnerable at all.
4) Usmash: Duh.
5) Lasers: Don't let the laser camping get to you. Fox has a "deadspot" in mid range where it's unsafe to laser camp, and he can't get in close enough to box. Abuse this (with Ftilt) whenever possible.
Anything else?
Without Ftilt, Fox has a slight advantage (nothing huge). Just smack him with Ftilt once he's at 25%. I don't know. What else is there to discuss?
Really, there are two things Sheik needs to do.
1) Get Fox to 25%
2) Ftilt x n -> Usmash
If you don't Ftilt lock, this is a really fun matchup. Either way, Fox will just run and laser and run and laser and pester and get in tiny hits that lead to 20-40% combos or DI chases. It adds up if you're not careful; so it's not unwinnable for Fox.
A few moves you need to watch out for:
1) Dair: Fox mains are actually getting good with this move, so don't get hit by it - you'll eat Utilt, jabs, grabs, Dsmash, Usmash at various percents, and then you'll get chased and punished if your DI/tech gets read.
2) Nair: This move stuffs so many things it's ridiculous. I don't play Fox v Sheik, but this is a staple in many matchups that lets Fox beat out otherwise tough defenses should he be forced to approach.
3) Utilt: This clanks with the best of smashes and beats out a bunch of other moves. Just be careful if Fox is facing away from you; he's not that vulnerable at all.
4) Usmash: Duh.
5) Lasers: Don't let the laser camping get to you. Fox has a "deadspot" in mid range where it's unsafe to laser camp, and he can't get in close enough to box. Abuse this (with Ftilt) whenever possible.
Anything else?
Code:
[9:35pm] Ankoku: Which color of Fox has the least chance of getting ftilt locked
[9:35pm] Ankoku: discussmountain_tiger
Smash Champion
That's a tad extreme. Yes, it's very clearly in Sheik's advantage (landing a move that comes out in fou frames and has long range isn't really hard), but it's definitely not as bad as Fox vs Pikachu. Without the FTilt, the matchup is even, maybe a minor advantage on one side. With Pikachu, Fox has more to worry about than just the chaingrab itself. It can be followed up with a USmash, which due to Fox's weight can kill if not correctly DI'd. Not to mention that Pikachu's aerials out-prioritise all of Fox's, he has a better projectile and... yeah, Pikachu was basically designed to **** Fox.
/rolleyes
play good foxes. ftilt is hard to land if they don't want to get hit by it and lazer is an awesome tool to force you not to sit and wait for that perfect ftilt opertunity. If you start after 50% they can DI out of it.
I'm not saying it isn't in sheiks favor by a large margin, but 80:20? no....
play good foxes. ftilt is hard to land if they don't want to get hit by it and lazer is an awesome tool to force you not to sit and wait for that perfect ftilt opertunity. If you start after 50% they can DI out of it.
I'm not saying it isn't in sheiks favor by a large margin, but 80:20? no....
You can avoid inevitability all you want, but it's gonna get you eventually. Even if you're being retardedly obvious about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUIGg8AdRQc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUIGg8AdRQc
And all the good Foxes say don't play this matchup against good Sheiks. It's possible to DI out, yes, but then Sheik just need to pause and re-start. The Ftilt will get you, and when it does, Fox loses. Just out of curiosity, who are these good Foxes you're playing?
Also, don't start the Ftilt lock below 25%, since Fox can DI down, powershield, Upsmash out of it.
All true, but we've found ways to get around most of the annoying stuff. (Read: WE'VE FOUND HOW TO BE EVEN GAYER WITH FOX). I mean, they're both terrible matchups, but I'd put Pikachu at a 70:30 now (hey, Anther says it's a possible matchup) and Sheik at 75:25, maybe 80:20. I don't know, maybe Fox needs to just play even gayer.
fenrir, virgman.
clowsui
Smash Legend
<3 in the vids vs. the fox you played you didn't start at 26% + you didn't follow their di changes
fenrir thinks virg is good which must mean fenrir is actually bad... which would make sense if I'm bad and I play with him. You see I don't ftilt fox or follow DI.
Seriously though a fox that isn't jumping into your attacks is difficult to beat, fox doesn't need to approach ever. What sheik's do you play zhamy?
Seriously though a fox that isn't jumping into your attacks is difficult to beat, fox doesn't need to approach ever. What sheik's do you play zhamy?
SinkingHigher
Smash Lord
"fox doesn't need to approach"
What about ducking?
Imo, crawling+ftilt>fox.
I'm not saying that's all you need to beat fox, but it certainly helps.
What about ducking?
Imo, crawling+ftilt>fox.
I'm not saying that's all you need to beat fox, but it certainly helps.
shield grab > ftilt, moving past sheik, jumping on a plat, there are countless options to aviod a crouching approach. it is essentially walking up to someone and ftilting them, but slower. Fox can be very mobile with his lazer which is something he has over needles, and while yes fox isn't going to reflect needles back at you every time reflector is going to make trying to camp out fox difficult.
Like I said before I'm not saying this sin't in foxes favor I'm just saying stop under estimating him. a good fox experinced in the match up would probablly wreck a lot of you just because of how little effort you are going to put into actually understanding the match up and how little you actually know about fox.
ftilt is not the only aspect of this match.
Like I said before I'm not saying this sin't in foxes favor I'm just saying stop under estimating him. a good fox experinced in the match up would probablly wreck a lot of you just because of how little effort you are going to put into actually understanding the match up and how little you actually know about fox.
ftilt is not the only aspect of this match.
heh, Thanks.
I don't think I've ever had any credibility on sheik boards, lol. Wait a second... sarcasm?! Where have I seen that before...
Cool.
EDIT:
Dub post.
clowsui
Smash Legend
his dash is faster than yours but not by that much...i'd imagine that his evasive nature makes getting ftilt hard
do a lot of shield cancelled dashes and stuff, powershielding lasers is helpful
any lag that he has, punish with dash attack if it's on reaction
if you're close enough use ftilt or jab etc.
in terms of his aerial stuff always chase him with bairs, preferably with his back to you so that he is forced to airdodge or try and trade w/ your bair, if in the front it's still possible to get him it's just that fair might trade
please don't be afraid to challenge the initial firefox period...if he's recovering to the ledge you should usually be fast enough to quickhog/chain it. if he's recovering and comes down towards the stage after firefox just bair him away or fair him onto the stage depending on his position
fox's dair is good but has no range...he also has a blind spot that can be challenged by jumping to the southeast of fox, with the tip of the foot of bair touching in between his butt and his feet, lol
phantasm recovery is punished by throwing needles before the phantasm ends or following the ending of phantasm. you should always be able to powershield it if it's on stage. if not, don't bother and just charge needles
try to play equally evasive and space at the range where lasers are ineffective...don't be too flashy because if you make any mistakes fox will start ****** you for 30+% damage punishments
also <3, are you poking fun at me or are you trying to insult me? XD;
do a lot of shield cancelled dashes and stuff, powershielding lasers is helpful
any lag that he has, punish with dash attack if it's on reaction
if you're close enough use ftilt or jab etc.
in terms of his aerial stuff always chase him with bairs, preferably with his back to you so that he is forced to airdodge or try and trade w/ your bair, if in the front it's still possible to get him it's just that fair might trade
please don't be afraid to challenge the initial firefox period...if he's recovering to the ledge you should usually be fast enough to quickhog/chain it. if he's recovering and comes down towards the stage after firefox just bair him away or fair him onto the stage depending on his position
fox's dair is good but has no range...he also has a blind spot that can be challenged by jumping to the southeast of fox, with the tip of the foot of bair touching in between his butt and his feet, lol
phantasm recovery is punished by throwing needles before the phantasm ends or following the ending of phantasm. you should always be able to powershield it if it's on stage. if not, don't bother and just charge needles
try to play equally evasive and space at the range where lasers are ineffective...don't be too flashy because if you make any mistakes fox will start ****** you for 30+% damage punishments
also <3, are you poking fun at me or are you trying to insult me? XD;
I just read the thread I was just being a jerk without reason.
People actually posted useful stuff rather than only mention ftilt. I'm satisfied.
People actually posted useful stuff rather than only mention ftilt. I'm satisfied.
stealth3654
Smash Lord
Hey, I'm back home. So we will be moving on to Sheik's counter-part: Zelda.
Discuss!!!
Discuss!!!
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
I'm not convinced that this is an even match-up like I've been seeing everywhere. It feels more as if Sheik has a solid advantage against Zelda. I don't even think Zelda's Fsmash is safe on block against Sheik.
Use fully charged needles to punish her whenever she wants to attack, and use any other needle when you're outside of her range. Even if she Nayru's it, Sheik should be able to punish her. After all, it's a move that lasts 52 frames. Ftilt -> utilt religiously. I don't like when I see Sheiks get hit by Nayru's or something from an ftilt at a good %. Zelda is likely easier to gimp than to ftilt -> Usmash, but she's not hard to kill.
Get her in the air. Don't be stupidly obvious with your aerials because Zelda can beat them out... or rather, don't get directly in her range. You can be obvious at an angle while you fair her. Edgeguard her very aggressively.
Use fully charged needles to punish her whenever she wants to attack, and use any other needle when you're outside of her range. Even if she Nayru's it, Sheik should be able to punish her. After all, it's a move that lasts 52 frames. Ftilt -> utilt religiously. I don't like when I see Sheiks get hit by Nayru's or something from an ftilt at a good %. Zelda is likely easier to gimp than to ftilt -> Usmash, but she's not hard to kill.
Get her in the air. Don't be stupidly obvious with your aerials because Zelda can beat them out... or rather, don't get directly in her range. You can be obvious at an angle while you fair her. Edgeguard her very aggressively.
Tristan_win
Not dead.
Meh, zelda gives me too much trouble and for being as bad as she is I would think she would indeed counter sheik...but not by much like 55:45 here.
and that's the only ratio you will ever get from me.
unproven, and close. :3
and that's the only ratio you will ever get from me.
unproven, and close. :3
hit her off stage and keep her off.
Needle spam. Don't feel like you have to approach. dash attack can punish anything that hits sheild. Zelda only looks good if you are approaching agressively stay out of her attack range but keep pressure on her and you'll be fine.
zelda has one of the worst recoveries in the game. (and by that I mean she has a hard time getting onstage and not being punished for it after faroe's wind) Once you hit her off stage you should be taking a stock. Hit her off stage and force her to recover with wind again and again until you get a solid kill option.
Needle spam. Don't feel like you have to approach. dash attack can punish anything that hits sheild. Zelda only looks good if you are approaching agressively stay out of her attack range but keep pressure on her and you'll be fine.
zelda has one of the worst recoveries in the game. (and by that I mean she has a hard time getting onstage and not being punished for it after faroe's wind) Once you hit her off stage you should be taking a stock. Hit her off stage and force her to recover with wind again and again until you get a solid kill option.
I think Zelda has a solid on-stage game against Sheik. Slight advantage to her.
zelda has no approach options against anyone yet alone sheik, and she(sheik) is faster and a much better camper nayru's is horrible. Zelda can't put sheik in options where she has to do something bad. stage selection could change that a bit but over all sheik has a big advantage in the match up.
Slight Sheik advantage. Sheiks pressure game is too much for Zelda to really handle all that well. In theory, it seems like Zelda would have the superior moveset due to range and priority but then you realize that Sheik can just play hit and run and there's not much Zelda can do about it........Sheiks baiting game actually is really good in this matchup.
Zelda keeps this close because of her KO ability and still having a range/priority advantage......but really Sheik can avoid her a ton.
I still want to find out if Naryu's is legit for getting out of the tilt lock. I mash b all of the time and get out but I dunno.
Zelda keeps this close because of her KO ability and still having a range/priority advantage......but really Sheik can avoid her a ton.
I still want to find out if Naryu's is legit for getting out of the tilt lock. I mash b all of the time and get out but I dunno.
ftilt->ftilt is a true combo. mashing b and getting out is the fault of the sheik. A lot of sheiks abuse the crap out of ftilt and mistime the lock or make it too decayed to give proper hit stun. I wait till 40-50% and up until I try to lock with even a slightly decayed ftilt because I don't ftilt perfectly, lol. Room for error is awesome.
On paper zelda is beast but against someone who actually would like to win by any means her weaknesses are just too easy to exploit. sheik can out camp snake. zelda is a joke if you aren't trying to beat out her attacks with your own.
On paper zelda is beast but against someone who actually would like to win by any means her weaknesses are just too easy to exploit. sheik can out camp snake. zelda is a joke if you aren't trying to beat out her attacks with your own.
The only reason I brought it up is because of Naryu's invincibility frames. Similar to Marth's DS except a lot slower, coupled with the fact that Zelda is really floaty I think she may be able to get Naryu's out before you can ftilt.
Let's not go too far here, it's not like needle camping is shutting down Zelda or anything lol. The reason it's a SLIGHT Sheik advantage is because of the fact that Zelda has to approach the whole match.
zelda is one the the slowest characters in the game, sheik one of the fastest. You can bet if money is on the line zelda would never hit me espeacially on a large stage. conversely we can punish every attack she has spare jab and maybe dtilt out off sheild or just whiffed with dash attack which get zelda in the air which automatically puts her in a bad spot. space ftilt well in behind her and she has no strong answer out of shield, including bair.
love is invincible like frame 3 or 4? marth is invincible frame 1.
I don't know in my head it's just if zelda has to approach and she has horrible approaches all of witch sheik can easily punished and big advantages gained from then sheik has a big advantage in the match up as a whole.
obviously if you are trying to space bair and fair and tilts on zelda you are going to lose big to usmash and forward smash, so don't! play zelda weaknesses and punish her.
love is invincible like frame 3 or 4? marth is invincible frame 1.
I don't know in my head it's just if zelda has to approach and she has horrible approaches all of witch sheik can easily punished and big advantages gained from then sheik has a big advantage in the match up as a whole.
obviously if you are trying to space bair and fair and tilts on zelda you are going to lose big to usmash and forward smash, so don't! play zelda weaknesses and punish her.