stealth3654
Smash Lord
We are now moving on to ZZS.
Discuss!!!
Discuss!!!
-
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Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread
- Thread starter stealth3654
- Start date
I always found it odd that Sheik could tilt lock Zero Suit Samus.
Anyway, just make sure not to fall for her frametraps. Most of ZSS's good moves have either punishable startup or punishable cooldown, but never both.
Anyway, just make sure not to fall for her frametraps. Most of ZSS's good moves have either punishable startup or punishable cooldown, but never both.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
IMO this matchup is terrible for ZSS, but people always make fun of me for it... =/
ZSS and Sheik are very similar characters that share a lot of properties. Sheik is a very popular secondary choice for ZSS mains as a result of this so many of us know Sheik and the match-up pretty well. We should really try to get Snakeee here...
While your aerial game isn't as good, the moves come out a bit faster and tend to poke us in spots that make us uncomfortable (such as your uair, which while not a great move, leaves us without an answer to it). The ftilt lock is easily broken with down-b, but down-b is really predictable in terms of trajectory and it is very easy for you guys to follow up with something else due to your speed and agility.
I think perhaps the most irritating parts of the match-up for me are the shield pressure you guys are capable of putting onto ZSS, which is unique for Sheik because shield pressure isn't exactly a specialty of her's, but it is a reality. Because of the nature of your jab combo and your needles, and because of ZSS' weakness to characters with a combination of long-range hit-stun inducing projectiles and close range shield pressure, your shield pressure game, which is usually not great, suddenly becomes very good and very annoying to us.
With that said, ZSS will kill you pretty early because you're light, and because ZSS has really good movement-cancelling with her uair and because of Sheik's "problems" killing (I realize you guys have found pretty reliable kills nowadays, but many of them are still pretty hard to hit ZSS with if she's expecting them), ZSS won't die for a while despite her weight. Still, Sheik has an easier time than most of the cast gimping her off-stage and even those of us who don't think this match-up is that bad are afraid of Sheik's fair when recovering.
When fighting ZSS you will find that she will try very hard to stay at mid-range where she will be most comfortable. Paralyzer will be easily punished so she probably won't use it. She will punish your rolls easily with dsmash, so avoid using those when possible. She will also punish your up+b recovery when coming back on stage with dsmash, so try to aim for ledges when recoverying and quickly come back up so you don't get stage spiked. The only time we will use Paralyzer Shot is when you try to approach from far away with a DACUS. Believe it or not, those things are telegraphed, and Paralyzer is the perfect move to deal with them. So don't abuse DACUS. You'll get wrecked.
Up close, you'll find that ZSS' tilts have very high priority, good range and disjointed hitboxes, which can be a huge pain for Sheik if you make a mistake. ZSS' utilt is very good as a punishing blow and out of shield, so of course you'll want to look out for that.
In the air, ZSS wins when she is below you, so you really want to avoid this situation. You have the same "stall and fall" dair that she does, just without the insane priority and damage... so you'll get wrecked if you jump to avoid side-b; she will uair and bair you to hell. Instead, powershield it and walk forward or just camp with needles. Don't try to approach her from the air. It is what she wants and you will get punished, and besides, the needles are ridiculously annoying to her, so there's no reason to be aggressive here. If you must approach in the air, fast-falling a nair or uair is the best choice. DO NOT FAIR as an approach. You will get powershielded and the first side-b hitbox will come out before you land.
As for stages, you are going to want to ban Rainbow Cruise in my opinion. This is one of ZSS' strongest stages if not her best. Lylat is also a candidate for banning if you guys are comfortable on RC. Lylat is one of ZSS' strongest stages and makes it easier for us to mess with your recovery. It also has very little effect on ZSS' recovery, which makes our off-stage game better here.
With CPs, the usual rules with ZSS apply. She's not really wrecked by any stages except for Japes, which will probably get banned. If they don't ban Japes, pick it. If they ban Japes, CP, uh, Frigate Orpheon, which might be her second worst stage, even though it isn't really that bad.
All in all a pretty safe match-up for Sheik IMO. Anywhere from 55:45 to 60:40 for you guys. This is one of ZSS' few truly disadvantageous match-ups, though, so don't get too comfortable, we all know it pretty well.
Also don't switch to Zelda for kills, you won't get them, usually, and you'll just get wrecked, lol.
ZSS and Sheik are very similar characters that share a lot of properties. Sheik is a very popular secondary choice for ZSS mains as a result of this so many of us know Sheik and the match-up pretty well. We should really try to get Snakeee here...
While your aerial game isn't as good, the moves come out a bit faster and tend to poke us in spots that make us uncomfortable (such as your uair, which while not a great move, leaves us without an answer to it). The ftilt lock is easily broken with down-b, but down-b is really predictable in terms of trajectory and it is very easy for you guys to follow up with something else due to your speed and agility.
I think perhaps the most irritating parts of the match-up for me are the shield pressure you guys are capable of putting onto ZSS, which is unique for Sheik because shield pressure isn't exactly a specialty of her's, but it is a reality. Because of the nature of your jab combo and your needles, and because of ZSS' weakness to characters with a combination of long-range hit-stun inducing projectiles and close range shield pressure, your shield pressure game, which is usually not great, suddenly becomes very good and very annoying to us.
With that said, ZSS will kill you pretty early because you're light, and because ZSS has really good movement-cancelling with her uair and because of Sheik's "problems" killing (I realize you guys have found pretty reliable kills nowadays, but many of them are still pretty hard to hit ZSS with if she's expecting them), ZSS won't die for a while despite her weight. Still, Sheik has an easier time than most of the cast gimping her off-stage and even those of us who don't think this match-up is that bad are afraid of Sheik's fair when recovering.
When fighting ZSS you will find that she will try very hard to stay at mid-range where she will be most comfortable. Paralyzer will be easily punished so she probably won't use it. She will punish your rolls easily with dsmash, so avoid using those when possible. She will also punish your up+b recovery when coming back on stage with dsmash, so try to aim for ledges when recoverying and quickly come back up so you don't get stage spiked. The only time we will use Paralyzer Shot is when you try to approach from far away with a DACUS. Believe it or not, those things are telegraphed, and Paralyzer is the perfect move to deal with them. So don't abuse DACUS. You'll get wrecked.
Up close, you'll find that ZSS' tilts have very high priority, good range and disjointed hitboxes, which can be a huge pain for Sheik if you make a mistake. ZSS' utilt is very good as a punishing blow and out of shield, so of course you'll want to look out for that.
In the air, ZSS wins when she is below you, so you really want to avoid this situation. You have the same "stall and fall" dair that she does, just without the insane priority and damage... so you'll get wrecked if you jump to avoid side-b; she will uair and bair you to hell. Instead, powershield it and walk forward or just camp with needles. Don't try to approach her from the air. It is what she wants and you will get punished, and besides, the needles are ridiculously annoying to her, so there's no reason to be aggressive here. If you must approach in the air, fast-falling a nair or uair is the best choice. DO NOT FAIR as an approach. You will get powershielded and the first side-b hitbox will come out before you land.
As for stages, you are going to want to ban Rainbow Cruise in my opinion. This is one of ZSS' strongest stages if not her best. Lylat is also a candidate for banning if you guys are comfortable on RC. Lylat is one of ZSS' strongest stages and makes it easier for us to mess with your recovery. It also has very little effect on ZSS' recovery, which makes our off-stage game better here.
With CPs, the usual rules with ZSS apply. She's not really wrecked by any stages except for Japes, which will probably get banned. If they don't ban Japes, pick it. If they ban Japes, CP, uh, Frigate Orpheon, which might be her second worst stage, even though it isn't really that bad.
All in all a pretty safe match-up for Sheik IMO. Anywhere from 55:45 to 60:40 for you guys. This is one of ZSS' few truly disadvantageous match-ups, though, so don't get too comfortable, we all know it pretty well.
Also don't switch to Zelda for kills, you won't get them, usually, and you'll just get wrecked, lol.
Sheiks shield pressure game is one of her best assets......don't know where you're getting your info from on that one.
Why the hell would I approach with an uair? That's stupid.
You do realize that fair has next to no landing lag and can go straight into a frame 2 jab or a frame 4 ftilt correct? You can't really punish it with her side b lol.......you would have to use ZSS' jab. I can also fair onto your shield and then double jump before landing. I found it rather comical that you mentioned uair as an approach(which is an awful idea) but cautioned us against fair.
This is a pretty even matchup though. I can't really say for sure which character has the advantage but it's certainly not as much in Sheiks favor as your claiming it is.
Why the hell would I approach with an uair? That's stupid.
You do realize that fair has next to no landing lag and can go straight into a frame 2 jab or a frame 4 ftilt correct? You can't really punish it with her side b lol.......you would have to use ZSS' jab. I can also fair onto your shield and then double jump before landing. I found it rather comical that you mentioned uair as an approach(which is an awful idea) but cautioned us against fair.
This is a pretty even matchup though. I can't really say for sure which character has the advantage but it's certainly not as much in Sheiks favor as your claiming it is.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I agree. I was told by Tristanwin that Sheik's shield pressure was not as good as I thought it was and was only good vs ZSS though. Whoops.
I was under the impression that it autocancelled/was safe on block. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, you don't need to be so aggressive.
Yeah, you're right. Guess I got mixed up. Sorry, I'm not perfect. Still, our jab is 1 frame and it will beat any followups after fair if we powershield. With that said, you guys can powershied the third frame of the jab combo, so be prepared to follow us when we jab once and run away.
Actually I disagree, Sheik's shield pressure on ZSS combined with her bad shield defense makes this not good for her, and that's just the biggest problem. There are loads of little problems other than that, that make this match-up terrible.
On my side I see a character in ZSS with a ton of disjointed and ranged attacks. Better aerials, combos, and a moveset almost equal to mine in speed.
Sure Sheik can put pressure on ZSS when she's in her shield but ZSS has the advantage in the mid range area and her spacing options are great against Sheik.
Needles have far too much cooldown time for them to be used in that mid-range area.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
That's totally fair. I get a lot of flack for saying this match-up is bad, heh. ZSS and Sheik are pretty similar characters, so it may be that it is even. I don't think numerical ratios are all that important anyway, at least in match-up discussions. ZSS mains recently moved to a system where we just call it "advantaged" or "disadvantaged" and leave it at that, and we're a lot happier.
Even with the errors and match-up ratio aside, I think there's some good info in my write-up and I hope you guys get something good out of it.
Anyway, the needles might be bunk at mid-range but they are really, really good at long range. Even if she powershields them while approaching, you are limiting her options and maybe even dealing some psychological damage, depending on the player. Abuse them at long range, seriously. ZSS has no long-range projectile options. As a matter of fact, I don't think it is fair to say she has "ranged attacks." She's kind of a hybrid, with mid-ranged attacks and close range attacks with good range, but at the expense of a long-range attack.
I still think Sheik is advantaged, even if just slightly. The shield pressure is a big deal, I'm not overhyping it.
Even with the errors and match-up ratio aside, I think there's some good info in my write-up and I hope you guys get something good out of it.
Anyway, the needles might be bunk at mid-range but they are really, really good at long range. Even if she powershields them while approaching, you are limiting her options and maybe even dealing some psychological damage, depending on the player. Abuse them at long range, seriously. ZSS has no long-range projectile options. As a matter of fact, I don't think it is fair to say she has "ranged attacks." She's kind of a hybrid, with mid-ranged attacks and close range attacks with good range, but at the expense of a long-range attack.
I still think Sheik is advantaged, even if just slightly. The shield pressure is a big deal, I'm not overhyping it.
no SFP you are right. I've always though sheik would have an advantage in this match up. I've played a small handful of Zsams and it seems that way.
Needles are ****. Zsam can't punish them well even at close ranges. sheik can jump in out of Zsams effective range very easily and there isn't much she can do about it because her ground attacks don't have strong answers to sheiks aerial and ground pokes. and once you get below zsam whelp that a lot of free damage and an edge gaurd in the right situation.
Oh and off stage sheil generaly is going to win with edge gaurds. low angle knock off are normally a stock against tetherers. Zsam is not an exception.
Needles are ****. Zsam can't punish them well even at close ranges. sheik can jump in out of Zsams effective range very easily and there isn't much she can do about it because her ground attacks don't have strong answers to sheiks aerial and ground pokes. and once you get below zsam whelp that a lot of free damage and an edge gaurd in the right situation.
Oh and off stage sheil generaly is going to win with edge gaurds. low angle knock off are normally a stock against tetherers. Zsam is not an exception.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
gm jack
Smash Lord
In addition to that, chain is very nice way to edge hog. It stops the side-B being used, and timing the pull up to stop getting spiked by the up-B should result in an easy kill at any distance a ZSS is force to use a tether.
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
To be honest, half the cast gets screwed by semi-spikes if they're powerful enough.
But yeah, I'm going for 45:55 Sheik's favour (those needles of hers really hurt us).
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I believe the chain refreshes her down-b. What should happen is, she side-bs, gets hit with the chain before sweetspotting the ledge and tries to down b, bu tthe chain will keep hitting her. Eventually she'll get into Smash range while attempting to come back... I think, OR she'll abuse the ending lag on the chain and come back. The sheiks I've played have not really attempted to edgeguard me this way.
If you pull it back, even if you don't get spiked she'll flipstool you.
gm jack
Smash Lord
I was talking about when ZSS is forced to use a tether (i.e. when a down-B and a boost jump is not enough). Admittedly, that is normally rare, when you combine her floatiness and her surprisingly good recovery, but this is Sheik, who has her Fair and needle edge guards. Forcing a ZSS at a low angle forces the use of the tethers, and having a chain to retract stops the initial side B (Sheik's chain holds the edge, so it just attacks) and pulling up at the right time stops the up-B grabbing the ledge or spiking.
The up B does have a pretty wide angle of ledge grabbing, but when Sheik hangs from the chain, ZSS's only chance is to get below Sheik and up B to spike her while grabbing the edge. From that, it gets a lot more predictable for the Sheik to retract the chain.
On the ground, I suspect the match could be pretty even (I main Sheik, secondary ZSS, but never seem to meet any decent players for either of them). As said, Sheik can shield pressure ZSS very well. However, ZSS has a good midrange game that could cause problems if ZSS can keep Sheik at midrange. ZSS also has the advantage that her down and up tilts will put Sheik exactly where ZSS wants her - above.
Both characters have a weak point beneath them in the air. However, ZSS has her sweet-*** Uair, that is likely to cause serious problems until the Sheik can time a FFAD though the floaty ZSS.
Off stage, I think Sheik will have an advantage, but will still have to be very cautious, as ZSS has a strong air game, and a ZSS downB to flipstool or spike will probably mean death for Sheik.
Not an expert, but I suspect that Sheik does have a slight advantage in it, but if the ZSS can control the momentum and not get caught in shield too much, it could easily go to ZSS.
The up B does have a pretty wide angle of ledge grabbing, but when Sheik hangs from the chain, ZSS's only chance is to get below Sheik and up B to spike her while grabbing the edge. From that, it gets a lot more predictable for the Sheik to retract the chain.
On the ground, I suspect the match could be pretty even (I main Sheik, secondary ZSS, but never seem to meet any decent players for either of them). As said, Sheik can shield pressure ZSS very well. However, ZSS has a good midrange game that could cause problems if ZSS can keep Sheik at midrange. ZSS also has the advantage that her down and up tilts will put Sheik exactly where ZSS wants her - above.
Both characters have a weak point beneath them in the air. However, ZSS has her sweet-*** Uair, that is likely to cause serious problems until the Sheik can time a FFAD though the floaty ZSS.
Off stage, I think Sheik will have an advantage, but will still have to be very cautious, as ZSS has a strong air game, and a ZSS downB to flipstool or spike will probably mean death for Sheik.
Not an expert, but I suspect that Sheik does have a slight advantage in it, but if the ZSS can control the momentum and not get caught in shield too much, it could easily go to ZSS.
Zsams side be is too slow to be very effective against sheik. I can consistently power shield that silly move or run away from it... or under it and punish it very easily.
gm jack
Smash Lord
It isn't a move to be spammed, it's for punishment and spacing. Doesn't even need to hit to give an advantage if used right.
#HBC | Scary
Hype Incarnate
This matchup is really fun! On a side note, DACUS goes through ZSS's SideB, as long as your in between the main hitbox and her. I just found that yesterday. The one big thing I think to me is that ZSS's killing issues are non-existent since Sheik is so light. I wanna say its 55-45 for sure us, just avoid the armor pieces at the beginning....they hurt..... A LOT!
I always felt like Sheik did well in this match because she can just dash under most of our mid-range spacing game, which forces us to fight long range or in close quarters, neither of which are ZSS's most consistent areas, and both of which Sheik has the advantage in. Needles force us to approach. We can't pressure from mid-range or we get punished, and at close range, we're more likely to lose out because Sheik has better options.
Who knows, maybe dtilt is a good move for us. It's overall our best tilt, IMO, and I think it out-ranges Sheik's tilts. Not that it would beat everything Sheik has, but it would help ZSS' spacing game a lot.
I'm not very good at the match-up. But I've played a decent amount of Sheiks, and they all did much better against me than they did with other character. So I know what Sheik can do to ZSS. I'm just no expert on what ZSS does to Sheik. I'm fairly sure it comes down to who can win out at close range most often.
Who knows, maybe dtilt is a good move for us. It's overall our best tilt, IMO, and I think it out-ranges Sheik's tilts. Not that it would beat everything Sheik has, but it would help ZSS' spacing game a lot.
I'm not very good at the match-up. But I've played a decent amount of Sheiks, and they all did much better against me than they did with other character. So I know what Sheik can do to ZSS. I'm just no expert on what ZSS does to Sheik. I'm fairly sure it comes down to who can win out at close range most often.
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
ZSS doesn't really have killing issues. Bair and side B kill at around 110-120%, down B can kill at around 120% on the ground, and at basically any percent if you're edgeguarding with it. Fair also works if you can connect with both kicks. Add in the fact that they all have decent range, and that DSmash leads into them, and you have a decent arsenal of kill moves overall.
Though the armor pieces are painful, if Sheik can get hold of one of them, it helps her out a lot. (Though good ZSS players will make sure that you don't get it, most likely)
Though the armor pieces are painful, if Sheik can get hold of one of them, it helps her out a lot. (Though good ZSS players will make sure that you don't get it, most likely)
Sheikah's strengths:
Forces ZSS to approach.
F-Tilt Lock.
Edgeguards ZSS extremely well when predicting a Flip Jump or Boost Jump.
Amazing shield pressure against a character with poor OOS options.
Interrupts Plasma Whip with Needles.
Outranges ZSS' jab with her own.
Charged U-Smash breaks a predicted ZSS Flip Jump from the ledge.
55:45 Sheik, 60:40 at the worst. I'll edit this post later with more in-depth information because I'm going to be studying the matchup today.
Forces ZSS to approach.
F-Tilt Lock.
Edgeguards ZSS extremely well when predicting a Flip Jump or Boost Jump.
Amazing shield pressure against a character with poor OOS options.
Interrupts Plasma Whip with Needles.
Outranges ZSS' jab with her own.
Charged U-Smash breaks a predicted ZSS Flip Jump from the ledge.
55:45 Sheik, 60:40 at the worst. I'll edit this post later with more in-depth information because I'm going to be studying the matchup today.
Snakeee
Smash Master
No, ZSS can down B out of it, but if you anticipate this you can easily follow up after her with an aerial or even upsmash.
Anyway, I think this is actually one of ZSS' worst match ups (which isn't really saying all that much). I give it a 6/4 Sheik's favor. I don't feel like going into detail just yet, but it looks like SFP gave some good info on it. I'd much rather do a silly Sheik ditto then go with ZSS though.
stealth3654
Smash Lord
Well, I feel we covered ZSS pretty well. So unless Snakeee wants to add more to the discussion, we will move on to: Bowser!
Discuss!!!
Discuss!!!
East
Crappy Imitation
F-tilt the crap out of him to well... anything. We **** Bowser.
Zero Zuit Zamuz.
stealth3654
Smash Lord
gm jack
Smash Lord
Watch out for his crazy OoS and grab release game. Also, his upB has invincibility from the first frame, so when you are locking him, be careful of the percents, as he has lower than average hitstun, so will be able to upB into your face if you try too early. For the same reason, never hit his shield. You will either get up B again, or grabbed, and he has a lot of options from grab releases.
Not sure what he has on Sheik though, so you'd have to ask a Bowser main.
Not sure what he has on Sheik though, so you'd have to ask a Bowser main.
If you aren't being silly and overly agressive you an beat boswer. don't forget ge has some of the best defensive options in the game.
Riddle
Smash Lord
This matchup is probably 50-50ish (thats what we have). Your shield pressure will not work against Bowser, our OOS game is just to good. Bowser outranges shieks ground game a lot, so you are going to want to needle camp, and get bowser into the air whenever you can. DO NOT approach Bowser. Bowser has a lot of grab release tricksies on sheik so try to avoid getting grabbed. If you play both Zelda and Sheik then use Zelda. She has a pretty significant against Bowser.
Bowser is much cooler than Sheik lol.
Bowser is much cooler than Sheik lol.
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
I'm hoping this is a joke or you obviousily don't know anything about bowser, or your ftilt for that matter.
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
I'm going to go with 50:50 overall.
stealth3654
Smash Lord
I"m guessing that Bowser can up B out of the ftilt lock?
Edit: Here is a quote from the Bowser boards of grab releases on Sheik and Zelda.
Edit: Here is a quote from the Bowser boards of grab releases on Sheik and Zelda.
East
Crappy Imitation
No, but now I'm wiser for it. A buddy of mine plays Bowser, but from what you guys have said here, It's apparently not a very good one.I'm hoping this is a joke or you obviousily don't know anything about bowser, or your ftilt for that matter.
>
50:50?!
learn to not approach like an idiot guys! No wonder zelda beats your sheiks.
EDIT:
I'll talk some.
Yeah bowser is a beast out of shield and defensively in general. UpB and his amazing grab game easily put him up there as one of the best but what he lack is speed and mobility. I don't care how much claw hopping your opponent is doing as a competent sheik you are supposed to be controlling where he is and is not. You don't need to pllay pressure directly to him to do this.
Needles are a key tool in this match up... oh wait, they are in every match up. AGAIN you havethe better projectile and that means you do not have to approach the defensive master. And that fact alone completely destroys his defensive game entirely. Agianst shiek bowser has a few approach/poke options. Ftilt which can be punished and easily read, fair which again can be punished and easily read and avoided and claw which you should never be in range for in the first place.
Bowser is horrible in the air when compared to shiek. he has more range yes, but you out speed him with all of your attacks and hit places where he can't really defend.
With needles your edge guard game is monstrous against bowser, espeacially when combined with your fair which hit bowser out at a very low angles, his bane.
UpB which is normally safe against a lot of the cast can always be punished on sheild or whiffed with needles and dacus(lol, that rare of me to say)
Sheiks biggest plus is how well she can adapt to any situation you can be very very agressive with her when you need to be like agianst Zsam for example or you can pull off and play the defensive waiting camp game for characters who excel defensively like the worst character in the game zelda, or bowser. If you aren't adapting to each new situation and just sticking to one of these two play styles then you aren't using sheik to her full potential.
50:50?!
learn to not approach like an idiot guys! No wonder zelda beats your sheiks.
EDIT:
I'll talk some.
Yeah bowser is a beast out of shield and defensively in general. UpB and his amazing grab game easily put him up there as one of the best but what he lack is speed and mobility. I don't care how much claw hopping your opponent is doing as a competent sheik you are supposed to be controlling where he is and is not. You don't need to pllay pressure directly to him to do this.
Needles are a key tool in this match up... oh wait, they are in every match up. AGAIN you havethe better projectile and that means you do not have to approach the defensive master. And that fact alone completely destroys his defensive game entirely. Agianst shiek bowser has a few approach/poke options. Ftilt which can be punished and easily read, fair which again can be punished and easily read and avoided and claw which you should never be in range for in the first place.
Bowser is horrible in the air when compared to shiek. he has more range yes, but you out speed him with all of your attacks and hit places where he can't really defend.
With needles your edge guard game is monstrous against bowser, espeacially when combined with your fair which hit bowser out at a very low angles, his bane.
UpB which is normally safe against a lot of the cast can always be punished on sheild or whiffed with needles and dacus(lol, that rare of me to say)
Sheiks biggest plus is how well she can adapt to any situation you can be very very agressive with her when you need to be like agianst Zsam for example or you can pull off and play the defensive waiting camp game for characters who excel defensively like the worst character in the game zelda, or bowser. If you aren't adapting to each new situation and just sticking to one of these two play styles then you aren't using sheik to her full potential.
Riddle
Smash Lord
Sheik can't win if he approaches. You have the tools to force Bowser to approach, so use them.
stealth3654
Smash Lord
What are everyone's thoughts on CP and bans?
Ixisnaugus
Smash Journeyman
It is difficult for Sheik to defeat Bowser on the ground. Relying on FTilt for everything will not work, though if the opportunity arises Sheik's should take full advantage. Surprise single needles (and the move in general) works moderately well against Bowser, but good Bowser players know how to use the shield to its fullest and will just powershield their way through the onslaught, so camping wont last long. The chain works well at times from a distance (no seriously) so you should pull it out from time to time. If you insist on trying your luck with ground combo's, try and get in a grab as quick as possible otherwise you will get fortressed... in fact regardless of anything you'll end up getting fortressed, also don't think you can keep sponging that move, it is very capable of killing. Bowser's far easier to deal with in the air, and a few of Sheik's aerials are pretty quick, good for keeping the pressure on; though Bowser isn't as much of a slouch in the air as some like to believe, watch out for his surprisingly long lasting Nair and Dair. I have no clue how Sheik is supposed to KO Bowser, i suggest switching to Zelda but for pure Sheik's i can only suggest using whatever your desired KO move is. Off edge, try and keep Bowser off, recovering is more or less all he can concentrate on, i say try and bully him off with Bair's, do not boldly jump out and try to fair like you're at 0 risk of anything, because a good Bowser will time a lovely SideB which will eat through your attack and possibly cause a Bowsercide, something you do not want happening, remember that you have slight control over the moves trajectory, so if you do get grabbed, DI toward the stage to avoid the inconvenient cide.
Take Bowser to compact stages, Smashville is probably a good one. Keep away from FD at all costs, you may want to stay away from Battlefield and YI too.
As for defending against Bowser, watch out for... well, everything really. Bowser's first jab is a god send, most Bowser's don't do it but he can cancel that first jab into almost any other move, FTilt, DTilt, UpB, SideB, grab, just don't let Bowser hit you, only come in close when the opportunity is visible, otherwise like i said earlier, you'll just get fortressed or shield grabbed. Oh and speaking of grabs, Bowser has a grab release chain grab on Sheik, it's far more dangerous than you might expect, Bowser racks up damage like a god **** express train. You don't have the range to take on cautious Bowser's who know how to space, in this situation resort to more needling to force approaches or your chain. I'm dead serious, don't think you can trade blows with Bowser and come out on top, and Bowser has quite a few methods of killing, he is not relegated to forward smashes like some idiots believe, and on the note of smash attacks, watch out for Bowser's USmash as it's surprisingly quick, and his FSmash has disjointed hitboxes that can catch you on the ledge, also keep in mind that you can DI out of his DSmash (and flame breath), don't sit there getting skewered by the move, smack those control sticks and get out of there.
Not sure what else i can add to help you Sheikah right now. To be forward, Sheik is not at the advantage here... far from it infact. I'd say 40:60 Bowser... 45:55 best. I may come back and explain myself further...
Take Bowser to compact stages, Smashville is probably a good one. Keep away from FD at all costs, you may want to stay away from Battlefield and YI too.
As for defending against Bowser, watch out for... well, everything really. Bowser's first jab is a god send, most Bowser's don't do it but he can cancel that first jab into almost any other move, FTilt, DTilt, UpB, SideB, grab, just don't let Bowser hit you, only come in close when the opportunity is visible, otherwise like i said earlier, you'll just get fortressed or shield grabbed. Oh and speaking of grabs, Bowser has a grab release chain grab on Sheik, it's far more dangerous than you might expect, Bowser racks up damage like a god **** express train. You don't have the range to take on cautious Bowser's who know how to space, in this situation resort to more needling to force approaches or your chain. I'm dead serious, don't think you can trade blows with Bowser and come out on top, and Bowser has quite a few methods of killing, he is not relegated to forward smashes like some idiots believe, and on the note of smash attacks, watch out for Bowser's USmash as it's surprisingly quick, and his FSmash has disjointed hitboxes that can catch you on the ledge, also keep in mind that you can DI out of his DSmash (and flame breath), don't sit there getting skewered by the move, smack those control sticks and get out of there.
Not sure what else i can add to help you Sheikah right now. To be forward, Sheik is not at the advantage here... far from it infact. I'd say 40:60 Bowser... 45:55 best. I may come back and explain myself further...
please come back and explain further.
Ixisnaugus
Smash Journeyman
Ok well, I'm back and ready to explain further
I hope nobody got a bad impression from my previous post, but i do feel that Bowser is at the overall advantage against Sheik, even if it isn't a huge advantage. You see, Bowser has an amazing ground game, good Bowser's with great shielding abilities coupled with nice jab canceling skills, good spacing and the Fortress makes for a surprisingly tough fight for Sheik's. Her moves are fast and FTilt is pretty deadly, but it's not as easy to pull off as one might assume, especially since Bowser can Fortress at almost any time when things get a little too heated. Flame Breath also has a lot of range and throws people off their game a bit, although it does have a bad amount of startup and ending lag which can both be punished.
Before i continue i think it's best i say now that it has been a month or two since i last played a very good Sheik player, so i'm not too familiar with any newer techs Sheikah's may have picked up.
Anyway... Bowser's options on the ground all have a good amount of range and the speedy first Jab is more or less the ultimate setup. The options Bowser has after that first jab is incredible, but usually attempting a grab is the most common option when Sheik is at low percentages, usually to attempt the chaingrab to rack up a fair bit of damage; there's little need to fear jab cancel to forward tilt at lower percentages but it'll become a pain later on, also watch out for canceled DTilt's, it's slower than FTilt but hits twice and deals more damage. I'll also mention the Klaw here (SideB), it can be used after the first jab and is dishes out a lot of damage, the knockback can be DI'd and it shouldn't be KO-ing you before 150%ish, it's deceptive range and grab armor allow it to eat through all of Sheiks attacks.
As i said earlier though, it's mostly a range problem vs Bowser. Sheiks ground moves are fast but they lack the range to catch cautious Bowser's trying to get that swipe (or maybe Fair), and getting in too close may not always be the wisest choice as their is the risk of getting Fortressed. On that note I'll explain a little bit more about the Fortress; you're probably aware of the move as it pretty much defines this character, I'll go a bit deeper on how its utilized though. It's an almost universal move that can be the answer in almost any situation, this is because it does decent knockback, nice amount of damage, comes out in the blink of an eye and has gargantuan amounts of priority; Bowser's will use this to get you out of their face, and it will work. I could be wrong but i'm going to assume that it out prioritizes or clanks with every move Sheik has, don't do a clank battle with the Fortress because you wont win, after a clank Bowser will mostly likely spin again, so shield (and grab). Once Sheik can get a combo going on Bowser, if She does not get him in the air as soon as possible, it is only a matter of time before the Fortress reveals itself, and it is pretty frustrating when it does.
Then there's the KO thing. Correct me if i'm wrong but i don't believe any of Sheik's throws have good KO potential. As I've mentioned many times, good Bowser's know how to use their shield, so grabbing a KO wont be as simple as you might think. I'm not saying Sheik can't KO, just that it's a little more difficult to take down Bowser, although gimping is still a viable option.
Once again, i have ran out of time to explain. I shall return at a later date to provide more of an explanation.
Dcold
Smash Lord
For the bowser matchup, sheik has to rely on her f-tilt to keep bowser in check. Due to sheik's light weight bowser can kill her with any tilt moderately low percentages (D-tilt kills at 83% if at the edge of the stage, F-tilt kills her at 104% at the edge of the stage, and U-tilt kills her at 90% all with bad/no DI) And with his even stronger smashes his attacks kill even earlier near 70%. A way to beat this would be to needle camp on the other side of the stage. Bowser's U-tilt can kill you early if you are above him so stages like YI brawl and SV would not be good to camp up there. Or, you could just f-tilt lock him from 0 to 50% or so and upsmash him to get him to 80% (roughly) which will help the killing process.
The only way bowser can actually be KOed by sheik besides a DACUS is by gimping him after his 2nd jump. That is the easiest way to kill bowser. He is easily gimped due to his size. So i see this matchup as a 60:40 or 55:45 matchup. Just stay away from his strong attacks and sheild out of dash to approch him.
And to me at best for bowser, a 50:50 matchup. But i wouldnt say bowser is an overally counter to sheik since his size can be used against him for some of sheiks moves, notably the lock from 0.
The only way bowser can actually be KOed by sheik besides a DACUS is by gimping him after his 2nd jump. That is the easiest way to kill bowser. He is easily gimped due to his size. So i see this matchup as a 60:40 or 55:45 matchup. Just stay away from his strong attacks and sheild out of dash to approch him.
And to me at best for bowser, a 50:50 matchup. But i wouldnt say bowser is an overally counter to sheik since his size can be used against him for some of sheiks moves, notably the lock from 0.