Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

[Kataefi]

Hi guys I'm thinking to do separate matchup threads over at the Zelda boards that discuss characters vs Sheik/Zelda and solely the duo, never just one (i.e. the general Sheik to Zelda combination, but of course there may be others). If it's concluded that one is better going solo we can point that out in summaries.

I'm intending this to go indepth and treat the duo as one character entirely. Can I get feedback on this? I hope this isn't a pretentious idea.

 

[gm jack]

Hi guys I'm thinking to do separate matchup threads over at the Zelda boards that discuss characters vs Sheik/Zelda and solely the duo, never just one (i.e. the general Sheik to Zelda combination, but of course there may be others). If it's concluded that one is better going solo we can point that out in summaries.

I'm intending this to go indepth and treat the duo as one character entirely. Can I get feedback on this? I hope this isn't a pretentious idea.

Do it.

In this game, they seem set to be played as a pair, which far more potential than either individually. It is only right that they are discussed as such.

 

[stealth3654]

Hi guys I'm thinking to do separate matchup threads over at the Zelda boards that discuss characters vs Sheik/Zelda and solely the duo, never just one (i.e. the general Sheik to Zelda combination, but of course there may be others). If it's concluded that one is better going solo we can point that out in summaries.

I'm intending this to go indepth and treat the duo as one character entirely. Can I get feedback on this? I hope this isn't a pretentious idea.

What gm jack said: Do it.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Luigi vs Sheik

If sheik gets too close, luigi's combos will hit...heavily

the main problem is sheik's needles, as said. Sheik should concentrate on stages that allow sheik to camp as hard as possible, as in FD or smashville for neutrals. Both of us are mostly vertical killers so outsise od length of the stage ,stage choice is pretty even. Luigi is probably better on Battlefield and yoshi's, even on Lylat, and slightly worse on Smashville and MUCH worse on FD.

i ban FD in this matchup. Luigi has multiple stages to play on...anything with small boundaries is good. Anything flat is bad. I personally am a big fan of Frigate due to the flipping of the stage and Brinstar due to back air gimps and the lava prevents at least some of the camping.

55-45 Luigi.

 

[<π]

I'd give it to uigi if we couldn't pivot grab and pivot needle his approaches so easily. that shuts down a lot of his approach options...

OH wait... if I disagree...

 

[iLight]

sheik's jabs win vs luigi, and in the second you get luigi to the air if you buffer right, you can approach with nair quite easily. I'll play you sometime and show you if you wish =p I live in tx so come on down

 

[stealth3654]

So are we all agreed on 55/45 Luigi's advantage?

Alright, since no one is giving any more input, we will move on to Peach.

Discuss!!!

 

[<π]

So are we all agreed on 55/45 Luigi's advantage?

Alright, since no one is giving any more input, we will move on to Peach.

Discuss!!!

But... I don't agree...

 

[stealth3654]

But... I don't agree...

Well, no one said anything, so I just moved on to Peach. What do you think the ratio for Luigi should be?

 

[Crossjeremiah]

bait the dairs. shielding them is useless. but dash shielding works and dash grabs work well in this match up. jab combo works too.

 

[East]

Ok, I know it was one of you guys who played Peach too. Whoever it was, start yappin. We need to get through this.

I played a Peach at HERB 2. Play patiently. Running in guns-a-blazing is not a good idea. Needles spam is pretty useless, cause of the float. It's best to save up 1 storm and just hol dit for when you know it will hit. As for killing, Peach has the same problem Sheik does. Stay away from fresh Nairs, Fairs [though it is doubtful this won't be used a lot], Forward Smashes [This one really shouldn't be a threat. It's got a good amount of start-up], and Up-Smashes [The Pirouette vs. The Gynecologist]. Watch out for dash-attack. It's got disjointed hit boxes, but has more than enough ending lag for punishment. F-tilt, though seldom used has deceptive range, and at higher percents can kill.

 

[stealth3654]

I think it was Villi who played Peach.

Peach's main approach will be float > aerial. If you get hit with her dair while she is floating, she will follow up with two up airs at low %'s. Peach's main kill move will probably be her fair. So if you see her floating, watch out. Also, i believe all of Peach's aerials auto cancel, so she will most likely follow up her aerials with a jab or a grab.

 

[Zankoku]

Playing against Peach as Sheik really is a test of patience.

 

[stealth3654]

Some thing from the Peach boards:

Did you know?
-Shiek cannot F Tilt lock Peach. If Shiek tries to do this, Peach can Nair out of it
-Peach has a chaingrab on Shiek using her Down Throw up to about 26% which can be finished off with an F Tilt

 

[<π]

learn to ftilt lock shieks, please. Ftilt->ftilt is percent dependant.

needles aren't useless but they are significantly less effective but still peach like everyone, or even more so because of her useless second jump, is very vulnerable when she lands to the projectile. aerials OOS are a great counter to a lot of her stuff, like dair and junk. bair and uair are your best friends in the match up but for the most part you don't want to challenge peach.

also because of her very horrizontal predictable recover she is prettty easy to edge gaurd. definitely one of shieks harder match ups though.

 

[choknater]

*** this matchup lol

i am really good at it, but edrees still owned me in the friendliez

just counter pick peach!

haha jk

it is totally possible for sheik to win

but u have to play gay, which i dont like

so i use mk gw is really good too kthx. LOL WOW i didnt contribute at all

basically, if she dairs u from on top of ur shield, u can nair her. its good.
use timing fairs when u know shes not gonna do something in her float.
autocancel uairs beneath her are too good
go for vanish ko's, its safe usually against peach, cuz when she tries to run and grab u after u vanish u can usually roll away

use zelda to ko her

dont spam dins fire, its useless, whole duration of peach's nair beats it
just do ur basic usmash/fsmash correctly, but dont be hasty

 

[Charoo]

*** this matchup lol

i am really good at it, but edrees still owned me in the friendliez

just counter pick peach!

haha jk

it is totally possible for sheik to win

but u have to play gay, which i dont like

so i use mk gw is really good too kthx. LOL WOW i didnt contribute at all

basically, if she dairs u from on top of ur shield, u can nair her. its good.
use timing fairs when u know shes not gonna do something in her float.
autocancel uairs beneath her are too good
go for vanish ko's, its safe usually against peach, cuz when she tries to run and grab u after u vanish u can usually roll away

use zelda to ko her

dont spam dins fire, its useless, whole duration of peach's nair beats it
just do ur basic usmash/fsmash correctly, but dont be hasty

ur sheik is garbage son. Step it up

I rather use Sheik over Fox vs Peach anyday. Unless it's on halberd then fox all da way

 

[Snakeee]

This is the match up that is ever so slightly in the opponent's favor, but it doesn't deserve to be!

I remember when I first played it, I almost laughed bc I thought it'd be cake....then that quickly turned to frustration.
Heh, I can handle it fine now though.

I say 55/45 Peach

You have to space yourself carefully, and not get overly aggressive with the pressure game. Peach can punish you if you try to follow up most of your attacks. Usually what I do is go for one attack, then approach cautiously and wait to see what she will do before I follow up.

EDIT: Yeah, I'm going to start posting here lol

 

[iLight]

I have played this match up vs Edrees, Kosmos, Gea and some other not as well known peach players. I actually believe it to be the opposite of what snakee said, that it is slightly in sheiks favor. I remember particularly vs gea i was losing because i was playing too aggressive, then i just started circle camping, aka jumping in circles throw needles and spacing with fairs/bairs, then all of a sudden the match up was 10 times easier.

Peach's ledge guard doesn't own sheik as badly as many other characters do. Peach on the other hand while recovering can be gimped by sheik.

most peach's hover at perfect height to be u-smashed/dacus. they have almost no answer to needles other than change heights aka float and then sheik's aerials can win the camp game.

things to watch out for that peach does have, her jabs come out very fast especially when following an aerial, and also she can do the low percentage down throw chain grab i believe, unless i just suck at DI.

But the second you read the peaches game and know what to look for you can just do the proper spacing to avoid jabs out of her aerials and not get baited in to her fairs, there is very little the peach can do.


Also on one final note i've started to adopt this style where, in between throwing out attacks i will crawl across the ground either forward or backward then quickly jump aerial, this gives you the advantage in this match up as well, because it is very difficult for peach to hit you when you are at this angle unless she is point blank on you, and you have the advantage at this point. This strategy also works really well vs marth, because only a perfectly spaced fair aimed at getting you off the ground (or nair) will hit you while your down there, otherwise they have to approach from the ground giving you the heads up as to what they are about to do.

I'd say the match up is 55/45 sheik, 60/40 at best. Almost a toss up, but slightly in sheiks favor.

Stages I'd take a peach to
Battlefield, Halberd, Lylat

Stages I would avoid
Final D, Yoshi's, Jungle Japes(unless your good at this map, i personally dislike it), Pictochat

 

[Meru.]

also because of her very horrizontal predictable recover she is prettty easy to edge gaurd. definitely one of shieks harder match ups though.

Peach isn't easy to edgeguard. If the Peach is stupid or makes a mistake and floats all the way back, quickly attack her out of it. But most Peaches don't float all the way back. Most of them recover from below, because her UpB is a pain in the @$$ to edgehog (though still possible). Sometimes Peach Bomber and second jump are used. Point being, she isn't easy to edgeguard.

Also, watch out for the combos. Floating Dair isn't her only combo move. SH Dair, Dthrow (especially with the changrab) and Ftilt are also good combo moves.

Oh, and I hate Dacus.

 

[iLight]

I would not say that she's easy to edge guard, but its very possible to prevent her from recovering in a way that she would like to from below. I usually throw needles or drop real low first and come up with a bair, this may not kill peach but it puts her at an easier position to guard, also if their reflexes are not fast enough sheik can very quickly fast fall fair off the side pushing peach away, then grab the ledge with the chain as they try to upB back

also I <3 Dacus

 

[EdreesesPieces]

LOL @ Choknater =P

Sheik cannot edgeguard Peach at all, really. If peach just saves her float for the end, Peach can take a needle hit, then float after it. I always take the needle hit (without letting you control where I recover from) then float right after and make it back pretty safely. I think the matchup is 55-45 or 60-40 in peach's favor though. Sheik can definitely win with patience but she's gotta outsmart the peach significantly.

Also, Peach can buffer the chaingrab to last to 40% to filt if you get a grab on sheik at 0% because then it stales the down throw. If you get a grab past 20% you can't chaingrab sheik.

DACUS is good against Peach's float though.

True story: In a sheik ditto i managed to take a stock off champ. oh yeah baby

 

[iLight]

i apologize, its almost pointless to discuss the mind games required to ledge guard against either character. cool stats on the chain grab though edrees =]

@sheik ditto story lol taking a stock off in a sheik ditto, sheik can tilt lock herself to ***********

i <3 edrees and he likes my dacus =]

 

[<π]

needles, don't forget, can go at an angle to hit people below the stage.

Light is right though... too complex to really debate. there is an answer to every action on paper; in theory.

 

[choknater]

this matchup has never changed ever since brawl came out lol

 

[SinkingHigher]

Just a couple notes here that some people might find useful in certain situation.

If you can bait a toad with needles or after catching her turnips or something, DACUS goes straight through toad even while he's shooting spores and hits peach in the back of the head with the side hit, potentially KOing her.

Another thing I find useful is that if you do happen to edgeguard her UpB from below the stage using your tether and invincibility frames, stay on the edge until she hits oyu with her umbrella. At this point shes too low to grab the ledge, and you can footstool jump off her umbrella to get back to the stage.

 

[East]

Another thing I find useful is that if you do happen to edgeguard her UpB from below the stage using your tether and invincibility frames, stay on the edge until she hits oyu with her umbrella. At this point shes too low to grab the ledge, and you can footstool jump off her umbrella to get back to the stage.

You can footstool off of the umbrella? Every time I've tried this, I've always been hit. Am I doing it wrong?

 

[SinkingHigher]

It works for me. You take a couple % damage from the umbrella though.

Hm, now that I think about it, it's possible that you get hit by the umbrella and then footstool off of peach's head.

However you do it, the result is that you twitch and take a little damage and then jump.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Peach has the advantage 55:45

You can not play gay on Peach. I'm not to sure where you are getting this from. If you wanna camp with needs, the only thing that goes is we can't camp you, which Peach really does not need to. I can just float to a certain distance towards you to get you to knock off the needles or it is a free hit for me. And shooting needles in the air does down, so you are not stopping me from getting close.

Spacing and her pressure game mess up shiek so bad. She can't really get inside well and will be hard to break free. The only way to do that is a well timed ducas. but i usually expect that when a shiek is at distance so I am usually aware of it and be careful when in the air. Peach is not beating that move in the air. So just incase I see it coming, I would just ground Float to a timed Fair, Nair, Bair. or just jab it.

Peach can be a real ***** to sheik off stage. Played correct, I can force shiek where to go on the stage. The stage or ledge. I can also take a turnip, Go out, hit you and grab the edge. Which would mostly likely force you to get on the stage. So I just let go of the ledge, jump on and finish you off or gab you and send you back out. Or jump from the ledge and Fair you back out. if not the stage, you next option would be the ledge. Which you won't have enough distance to grab it. or I ledge hop and grab it again to gain invisibility frames. And then you die. I should rate the match 60:40 Peach cause of this.

Peach main approach won't be floating air attacks. Wait, this depends on who you are playing. I don't float alot on Shiek. She is quick and has that ducas. So I mostly short hop space moves to jab combos to w/e And glide toss when I can. Peach can beat sheik without needing to float much.

Edgeguaring her, no that is not easy for you. I'm not too sure where people are getting this from. The only move Sheik has with Range is her Bair, and that moves stays out for a while and it is not angled straight. Which is good or Peach if you are a thinker and have smart recovery, I can recover high enough where shiek can't touch me.

I can get into so much more detail on this match up and write a book report about it. But I wanna see what others have to say before I do that. I say Peach has the match 55:45

East- No you can't footstool an umbrella. The only way you are doing that is if you get hit onceand Peach does not reopen it. Then the top part will lose it hit box. it once lasts once. Peach has to reopen it to restart the hit box. That is right, we restart hit boxes out here. Peach is so smex lol.

 

[choknater]

yup

most ppl here know whats up

light reminds me of meepxzero in that he is sometimes biased toward sheik in the matchup analysis haha. but its good that ur optimistic

the matchup has been 55:45 since the very first time we did this matchup

they have similar speed and range. VERY similar. and similar KO %'s, just coming from different angles and options.

but overall, peach has a better recovery and a little bit more priority. that gives her the slight edge.

 

[iLight]

its all good, i was just putting my perspective out there and saying what generally works for me, because no 1 strategy works vs all people, unless your playing mk

 

[Dark.Pch]

yup

most ppl here know whats up



they have similar speed and range. VERY similar. and similar KO %'s, just coming from different angles and options.

but overall, peach has a better recovery and a little bit more priority. that gives her the slight edge.

Similar speed? Shiek is fatster. Combat speed Peach is faster since all her moves auto cancel and her spacing is also quick with good range. The priority is a plus.

 

[-Mars-]

Pretty much all of Sheiks aerials auto-cancel and the frames on her moveset are faster than Peach's.......just saying.

Peach does have more range obviously and I feel that this is a slight peach advantage.

 

[Zankoku]

Besides fair, aerial startup is comparable for both characters, and Peach's have better range/disjoint. Frankly I hate going air-to-air against Peach because if I go for it too late then my aerial pretty much auto-loses. If you absolutely have to play this way, react quickly, and if you don't catch Peach quickly enough then get the hell away until you can try again.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Give me the frames on shieks air attacks.

 

[Zankoku]

Give me the frames on shieks air attacks.

Nair: 3 (technically equal with Peach)
Fair: 5 (11 frames faster)
Bair: 4 (2 frames faster)
Uair: 4 (4 frames faster)
Dair: 15 (3 frames slower)

So besides fair, which Sheik has a clear advantage in terms of speed, the difference really isn't that great. 4 frames is under a 10th of a second.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Is that so? Well this does answer alot of questions and problems with shiek I had before. Now I know why. Screw that then. Spacing all day on shiek now, ahaha!

 

[Tristan_win]

I miss playing you Dark.Pch.

We have to do it again sometime again down the road now that I have a car.

edit: oh and against peach I've played around with the jump into chain a bit and as a mix up it seems to work well against her even with her counter. Since peach counter takes more then a couple frames to come out you can effectively catch peach off guard and do a decent some of damage before peach will jump out of the onslaught.

I agree with Dark. Pch though the match up is in peach favor but it's fairly close.

edit2: like I could try to say more but everyone seems to know more about the peach match up then myself.

 

[-Mars-]

I wasn't advocating aerial combat with Peach....i was just pointing something out to Dark Peach.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I miss playing you Dark.Pch.

We have to do it again sometime again down the road now that I have a car.

Oh?

Well, sure we can play again next tournament we meet up.