Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

[-Mars-]

zelda is one the the slowest characters in the game, sheik one of the fastest. You can bet if money is on the line zelda would never hit me espeacially on a large stage. conversely we can punish every attack she has spare jab and maybe dtilt out off sheild or just whiffed with dash attack which get zelda in the air which automatically puts her in a bad spot. space ftilt well in behind her and she has no strong answer out of shield, including bair.

love is invincible like frame 3 or 4? marth is invincible frame 1.

I don't know in my head it's just if zelda has to approach and she has horrible approaches all of witch sheik can easily punished and big advantages gained from then sheik has a big advantage in the match up as a whole.

obviously if you are trying to space bair and fair and tilts on zelda you are going to lose big to usmash and forward smash, so don't! play zelda weaknesses and punish her.

Yea here is how I would play Sheik if I was going straight Zelda.

I strike FD. This forces the neutral to be on a small stage with platforms which Zelda ***** on. For Counterpicks I ban Halberd. What large stage are you going to be playing Zelda on?

Sure Sheik can punish most of Zelda's moveset. Not all of her moveset however and Sheik won't be kiling Zelda save a gimp until well after 100%. You always have to be aware as well that once your in that 70% range your in Zelda's KO range. Just one quick uair or bair and all of a sudden the match just got a lot more interesting.

 

[<π]

*shrug*
Maybe I need more experience in the match up? I really only see zelda as Gannondorf with longer lasting hit boxes. gannondorf has a stronger air game than zelda IMO and we wreck him in the air and get him there even easier.

zelda is just too slow to really be a big threat to sheik. yeah small mistakes can lead to huge misfurtune, but as sheik you really should be giving zelda those opportunities Unfortunately there are no strong zeldas in my area so I can't run out and play the match up, but if meta has that huge advantage on zelda without a strong projectile how is sheik's advantage slight?

Lol, I compared sheik to meta.
Here I'll elaborate: Sheik can punish and bait just as well as meta. any mistakes you make sheik can punish well out side of your range with boost grabs and dash attack, just like meta force you into the air and take advantage. but sheik can force you to move and change without being anywhere near you, meta can't. While obviously not on meta level shiek edge gaurds quite well. she can get zelda below the stage and that really hurts her recovery a lot forces her to go for the edge which sheik will always get to first or force her to teleport high which sheik will always be able to punish.

I really can't see this as slight no mater how I look at it. sheik should be destroying this match as long as she isn't being very aggresive with her approaches.

 

[-Mars-]

*shrug*
Maybe I need more experience in the match up? I really only see zelda as Gannondorf with longer lasting hit boxes. gannondorf has a stronger air game than zelda IMO and we wreck him in the air and get him there even easier.

zelda is just too slow to really be a big threat to sheik. yeah small mistakes can lead to huge misfurtune, but as sheik you really should be giving zelda those opportunities Unfortunately there are no strong zeldas in my area so I can't run out and play the match up, but if meta has that huge advantage on zelda without a strong projectile how is sheik's advantage slight?

Lol, I compared sheik to meta.
Here I'll elaborate: Sheik can punish and bait just as well as meta. any mistakes you make sheik can punish well out side of your range with boost grabs and dash attack, just like meta force you into the air and take advantage. but sheik can force you to move and change without being anywhere near you, meta can't. While obviously not on meta level shiek edge gaurds quite well. she can get zelda below the stage and that really hurts her recovery a lot forces her to go for the edge which sheik will always get to first or force her to teleport high which sheik will always be able to punish.

I really can't see this as slight no mater how I look at it. sheik should be destroying this match as long as she isn't being very aggresive with her approaches.

Zelda:

Jab: frame 11
Dash Attack: 6
Ftilt: 12
Dtilt: 5
Utilt: 10
Fsmash: 16
Dsmash: 4
Usmash: 6
Fair: 8
Bair: 5
Uair: 14
Dair: 15
Nair: 6

Sheik:

Jab:2
Dash Attack: 5
Ftilt: 4
Dtilt: 5
Utilt: 5
Fsmash: 12
Dsmash: 4
Usmash: 11
Fair: 5
Bair: 3
Uair: 4
Dair: 14
Nair: 3

Please don't compare Zelda to Ganon....that's just silly. Zelda actually has the ability to punish OoS......as you can see by the frames. Keep in mind that jab and fsmash have next to no cooldown. Oh and yes Ganon does have a better air game than Zelda......but what does she need an air game for? Oh also:

Character - Horizontal Air Speed

"S Class"
Yoshi - 4.04
Jigglypuff - 3.87
Wario - 3.71
Wolf - 3.63
Captain Falcon - 3.63

"A Class"
Sonic - 3.36
Donkey Kong - 3.36
Lucas - 3.30
Bowser - 3.30
Squirtle - 3.27
Mr. Game & Watch - 3.24
Marth - 3.24

"B Class"
Zero Suit Samus - 3.13
Charizard - 3.07
Zelda - 3.02
Samus - 2.97
Lucario - 2.95
Ness - 2.92
Mario - 2.92

"C Class"
Snake - 2.88
Toon Link - 2.83
Ike - 2.83
Pikachu - 2.74
Peach - 2.74
R.O.B. - 2.70
Pit - 2.70
Fox - 2.70
Falco - 2.70

"D Class"
Ganondorf - 2.62
Kirby - 2.59
Sheik - 2.57
Olimar - 2.55
Diddy Kong - 2.50
Link - 2.45

"F Class"
Meta Knight - 2.35
Ivysaur - 2.32
Ice Climbers - 2.32
Luigi - 2.29
King Dedede - 2.10

Sheik is quicker on the ground, but Zelda can outmanuever her in the air. Zelda isn't a behemoth and when you say something along those lines it makes you seem like you don't know much about the character.

 

[goodkid]

This match isn't too bad for Zelda. Sheik does have the advantage, but Zelda can KO sheik much earlier than Sheik can. Short-hop Nayru's seems to always crack Sheik's shield. I'm not sure if it does this everytime, but it usually works for me. Zelda can escape Sheik's aerial barrage. If Zelda doesn't leave herself open and once she gets around Sheik's tilts, needles, and aerial brick-walls, this match becomes easier.

 

[<π]

zelda has a horrible air game though it'd be different if she had good aerials to she could use that speed. she is faster in the air but sheik generally run or walk to move. If zelda get sheik above her she can follow her better but me, personally, I always go for the edge since sheik has such a rough time above everyone anyway.

Despite good aerial movement speed zelda can't force sheik into bad position as easily as she can zelda.

gannon can punish out of shield, instant aerial down b, upB OOS. <.<

 

[-Mars-]

Her nair is actually quite good and is actually decent for crossups and baiting and such because it auto cancels. She can do two aerials in a SH and her fair/bair have pretty good range. Her air game isn't horrible.

If Sheik is needle camping, then i'm either playing extremely patient, or i'm going to the air. Zelda can outmanuever Sheik in the air(yes, I said it everyone go ahead and flame me).

 

[Zankoku]

Sheik can typically win in air-to-ground against Zelda, and ground-to-air. She's in trouble ground-to-ground and air-to-air, though.

 

[choknater]

needle camping zelda FTWWWWWWWWW

if u camp zelda u give her THE BUSINESS

zelda has BAD approaches from the air

so if u needle spam, she has to block or jump

if she jumps use ur 3~5 frame aerials to penetrate her from beneath her dress

i am biased toward sheik in this matchup

if zelda can use her magical priority against sheik, she can do okay

but good luck catching up to needle camping <3

 

[Brinzy]

I'm not sure how hard needle camping really hampers Zelda. They are effective, no doubt, but I've never been stuck against Falco's lasers, let alone Sheik's needles. You hop towards Sheik to avoid needles for the most part. Obviously don't hop when you're close to Sheik.

As for grounded Zelda vs. aerial Sheik, I don't see how Sheik fares so well there, unless you're talking rising SHs. If I see a Sheik jumping at me and if I can help it, I'll jab. The start-up on it is the only thing that's really poor about it, but the very low cooldown, priority, and height of the hitboxes make it a great choice for people trying to approach Zelda from the air without a sword. Forgive me for not knowing everything about Sheik, but I'm not sure what Sheik is supposed to be doing in the air against a grounded Zelda.

 

[Zankoku]

I'd be willing to trade a hit of Zelda's jab for Sheik's fair. Which happens quite often, by the way.

 

[Brinzy]

I guess it will in practice. I'm shocked to hear that it has enough range to consistently trade with jab.

 

[Zankoku]

Well, there's the problem of Zelda's jab being relatively slow on startup, and the only way you'd land something like that against a SH-fairing Sheik is if you're actually not shielding when she jumps in at you. If you shield, it'll be too slow to unshield-jab. If you shield the fair, Zelda's relatively slow shieldgrab can't come out before Sheik's jab after landing. Your best options is to probably avoid the encounter in general, which isn't too difficult considering Sheik's aerial mobility is rather below average.

 

[GodAtHand]

Would a Sheik transform into Zelda to get the KO? Living to the mid to high hundreds against Sheik isn't uncommon which gives Zelda a good chance to catch up. I think this would be in Sheiks favor if she could kill at a decent %, but since I don't believe she can I would say this is probably a 50-50, of course the Sheik could switch to Zelda around 100% and go for the easy kill and have the advantage.

 

[Zankoku]

Invoking Zelda dittos against a Zelda main is not recommended unless you actually know what you're doing.

 

[SinkingHigher]

I kinda feel like the matchup here is about even, maybe 55:45 in favour of Zelda.

Needle camping, meh. Zelda's reflector keeps her stationary, true, but so does Sheik's needles. When you try to camp, all she has to do is refect. There's no way you can make it in time to punish her if you shoot even a single needle. I guess it depends on the players' abilities to predict their opponent, though.

The reason I give the slight advantage to Zelda is because of her multi-hit attacks that will punish many of Sheiks aerial approaches. She can quite easily bait Sheik with Din, though she cannot camp. A well controlled projectile means it can be quite hard for Sheik to recover without being punished, and Zelda's punishing moves are very apt for KOs.

Sheik can't f-tilt lock zelda so well, and getting a tipper on her isn't simple. Zelda can d-tilt lock Sheik though for long enough to possibly get a KO or gimp if she has an unstaled Dsmash or Fsmash.

Again, im not saying Sheik has no hope here. Infact, I think it's mostly a matter of player skill in this matchup, however, Zelda has a lot of defensive options that work well on Sheik, while many of Sheik's fall-back setups don't work especially well on Zelda.

 

[gm jack]

Plus, Zelda is light and comparitively easily gimped/punished for recovering. If she has to go for ledge due to the distance you hit her, just hang on your chain. If you see her recovering to stage, get up of the ledge and punish her when she returns.

While Zelda mains are going to be better as Zelda, she will die to a fresh Usmash pretty easy, and it could just take a single mistake to kill her. Considering how few options she has in most situations, just bait her with empty short hops on Fsmashes that will miss until they do something stupid and eat a smash.

 

[Zankoku]

If your entire Zelda game is reliance on the opponent "doing something stupid" then I recommend you don't transform.

 

[ddonaldo]

as said before, you have to get zelda into the air. unfortunately this is easier said than done since zelda is one of those characters who will rarely use their aerials except for KOing.
but once you get zelda in the air, the rest is cake since zelda cannot do anything if sheik is underneath her. u-air is a great as it puts you in the safest position as you wont have to worry about KO aerials or n-air.

chase zelda off the edge, there isnt anything she can do, her recovery is laggy and hitting her offstage can really hurt her chances of recovery

 

[gm jack]

If your entire Zelda game is reliance on the opponent "doing something stupid" then I recommend you don't transform.

I used to main Zelda, and swapped to Sheik purely because she can never force anything ever. Zelda has to let things happen. Sure there are Dtilt setups, but Zelda's recovery isn't hampered too much by the trajectory, and they can do it back to you.

I say doing something stupid as an exaggeration. Baiting would be the classier way to put it, but in the end, whenever you are trying to land a kill move, you are relying on them making a mistake. Zelda cannot approach most characters, let alone one with a good defensive game, such as herself. She also cannot camp the vast majority of people, and I suspect two people trying to Din's each other would be pretty pathetic and unlikely to achieve much.

For a Zelda to land one of her more powerful moves on another Zelda, you either rely on them running into it or otherwise setting themselves up for it, or putting themselves in a lot of lag whiffing an attack. She does not have any guaranteed set ups for kill moves at killing percentages. Hence, you rely on them making a mistake, which when you are at kill percentages, is pretty stupid, especially as you know the raised risk.

 

[-Mars-]

She does not have any guaranteed set ups for kill moves at killing percentages. Hence, you rely on them making a mistake, which when you are at kill percentages, is pretty stupid, especially as you know the raised risk.

Yes she does.

 

[Zankoku]

down+a, the combination of champions.

 

[stealth3654]

I think we should take Zelda to Delfino or Halberd since it would be a lot harder for her to sweet spot the ledge than on a stage like battle field. Yoshi's Island can also screw up her recovery if she tries to recover vertically from under the ledge. I would recommend banning a small stage like battle field since it's harder to space and needle spam against Zelda.

 

[Steel]

down+a, the combination of champions.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170945

 

[gm jack]

At higher percentages, Dtilt pops them up into the air. Especially as it will be unstaled, and Zelda is light, it will not be possible for any follow ups, as you can just air dodge as soon as you are put in the air. If you do it lower, Zelda has a recovery which can handle being sent at awkward angles.

As it is unstaled, at kill percentages, it will hit them up into the air, so no tripping frame advantages, so you lose all the follow ups. Normally, a Zelda player can use it liberally, and keep it stale enough to set up for either a Dtilt, or something else with a trip at kill percentages. Unstaled, you get none of that.

 

[-Mars-]

At higher percentages, Dtilt pops them up into the air. Especially as it will be unstaled, and Zelda is light, it will not be possible for any follow ups, as you can just air dodge as soon as you are put in the air. If you do it lower, Zelda has a recovery which can handle being sent at awkward angles.

As it is unstaled, at kill percentages, it will hit them up into the air, so no tripping frame advantages, so you lose all the follow ups. Normally, a Zelda player can use it liberally, and keep it stale enough to set up for either a Dtilt, or something else with a trip at kill percentages. Unstaled, you get none of that.

Your wrong my friend. I can give you a whole thread with data compiled on Zelda's kill setups and such.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218082

 

[zeldspazz]

If the dtilt pops the person in the air they have a chance of getting caught in a usmash, and if they're at that high of damage to being popped into the air, usmash will probably kill you. If you trip expect to grabbed, d-smashed, f-smashed, or u-smashed. D-tilt is the only thing keeping me playing Zelda, dont ruin it for me >

anyway, as raphael said, jab has huge range and i dont think shieks aerials have enough range to trade hits with it. I'm not sure how usmash does against shieks aerials, but that could be another option. We also always have Dins from a distance too, it can force shiek to approach if his needles aren't ready. Just my 2cents.

 

[<π]

why is sheik getting hit at kill percent by dtilt again? I don't understand why anyone approaches zelda at all yet alone when they are at kill percent.

 

[gm jack]

Your wrong my friend. I can give you a whole thread with data compiled on Zelda's kill setups and such.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218082

We are assuming a Sheik turning into Zelda for the kill will have a fresh Dtilt. Zelda is of a similar weight to Pit (I think she is lighter) so the data is comparable).

At 80%, Pit is popped in the air by a Dtilt (as in that link I used for making my statements). At that point, you can just DI away and air dodge to avoid anything, unless they have baited the dodge and punish.

Therefore, Zelda's most reliable setup will not work as you have to use Dtilt throughout the stale it enough to be able to actually keep them on the ground, and hence possibly get a trip.

Hence, it is a bad idea to try and use Zelda against Zelda to score a kill as it relies on them making a mistake in order to get the killing move in. Zelda should not be forcing you to approach, and her own approaches suck so much, you should just be able to keep piling on the damage until something like a Dsmash allows you to gimp Zelda.

 

[SinkingHigher]

jack, d-tilt doesn't need the trip to KO. At lower percentages, it can lock > Dsmash, but at higher percentages, it can guarantee a lightning kick on certain characters, and (I believe) also guarantee a KO via Usmash or u-tilt.

 

[gm jack]

I'm talking about the Sheik turning into Zelda to get the kill on the other Zelda. As you can't guarantee anything on kill percentages on another Zelda. The Utilt and Usmash set ups assume they don't DI and air dodge/you see the air dodge and punish it.

I'm am just trying to say that you can't use Zelda as a KO tool on a Zelda main, as they are likely to know all the tricks to forcing a mistake you know.

 

[stealth3654]

I think that Sheik shouldn't have to switch to Zelda to KO her. Zelda's recovery is very straight forward and predictable, so Sheik should have an easy time gimping Zelda.

 

[gm jack]

I suspect that standing near the edge as to go for an edge hog will force them to recover high, which should set them up for a tipper Usmash. Only pulled it off in matches once of twice, and it may just be bad choices on the opponents behalf.

 

[Zankoku]

Wait, airdodging when Zelda is holding an usmash hitbox RIGHT ON YOU saves you from it? This is news to me.

 

[gm jack]

Zelda herself has high enough airspeed to move out of the way while air dodging.

The point is, Zelda is not a tool Sheik should use against a Zelda main. Zelda is predictable and easy to read, and I don't think anyone will know that better than Zelda mains. Add in that her most reliable option is no longer reliable as she herself is good at escaping it means that you are going to be on the lower hand, unless your Zelda is better than theirs.

Sheik has much lower air speed, so could be vulnerable to that as a kill option. However, Zelda should not be forcing you to approach ever.

 

[Zankoku]

I've never encountered a Yoshi or Marth who's maneuvered out of range of Zelda's usmash from dtilt, let alone a Zelda. Either people over there are SDIing dtilt on reaction or you're lying.

 

[gm jack]

I'm not sure I'm being clear.

I was trying to talk about the Sheik turning into Zelda for the kill, and the fresh Dtilt prevents setups as once they get in the air, the Zelda who does the Dtilt is at a 6 frame DISadvantage. Usmash is much harder to airdodge, but I can normally air dodge as soon as the Usmash animation starts and drift away from them to avoid the Usmash.

Saying that, none have done a running Usmash, which I doubt is escapable, or maybe the Zelda's I was dittoing were just really slow on the Usmash.

Trying to get back to the matchup, I'm not sure Zelda has much on Sheik. If Sheik approaches, she is likely to get destroyed. However, the Zelda can't make this happen. Zelda approaches are pretty poor, so shield grabbing to put her in the air and abusing her blind spot underneath her should allow you to juggle her for ages. Just watch out for the FF Nayru's Love tricks.

 

[legion598]

I despise zelda so I use my anger and rage to fuel my shieks murderous intent in this match up. But seriously this match up is pretty stupid u cant really approach with anything u will mostly have to rely on punishing zeldas spacing. juggle traps are good here and Bair angles upwards so u can use that in ur juggles. Needles might be pretty good considering u cant approach and their fast so dins stupid fire wont hit u before u throw them. Another important thing in the is match up is to stay away from Zelda when ur hit into the air to avoid her Usmash and her Uair. ID say this is somewhere around 55/45 and 60/40 in zeldas favor because she out ranges and out prioritizes u and the only thing u have on her is speed.

 

[<π]

why are you guys letting zelda get any stage control when she has no approach options? lock her down don't let her move. ftilt out ranges all of her fast attacks and you can punish everything she doesn't out of sheild... come on, lol.

 

[stealth3654]

What are everyone's thoughts on CP's and bans for this match-up?

 

[choknater]

CP FD or anything big haha, or norfair so u can ****

i would ban small stuff, maybe battlefield or yoshi's or whatever

haha im usually very closed minded about stages