Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

[<π]

total attack is 48
second hit is frame 24
shield stun is 15

48 - (24+15) also assuming pit experiences no extra lag on hit connect
48 - 39
Leaves you with 9 frames to respond? For sheik that plenty of time for a dash attack to connect even after a long slide. a lot of the time you are going to be able to walk in and ftilt.

 

[Zankoku]

Closer to 120:-20.

<3: The 15 is hitstun hitlag, not shieldstun. Shieldstun is incredibly low.

 

[<π]

I'd go ahead and say it's heavily in Pit's favor. There's no way we can beat a character that has an attack that hits on frames 6 and 24 and ends on frame 15. It's not even possible.

lol, cut it out dude. Just correct him when he is wrong.


And speaking of wrong... I don't knwo about that frame data... there are so many holes in it. they don't have sheild stun times at all so yeah... I don't know how they caculated some magical all percent hit stun for it.

 

[Zankoku]

Actually they don't have hitstun values recorded. What you're reading is HIT LAG, the freeze-frames of lag on hit when you're able to SDI.

Yeah, that thread is a total mess.

 

[<π]

I awaken... I can type again. almost.

I don't know I'm pretty sure pit isn't that bad as long as you aren't giving him easy damage. he dies really light and if you force him to recover low. (A lot of pits go this route habitually) you net a kill just about every time. recovering high for pit espeacially versus sheik is risky.

I go wolf versus pit.

 

[Zankoku]

I forgot to point out that Sheik's ftilt actually clashes with Pit's fsmash first hit. Whatever.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I'd go ahead and say it's heavily in Pit's favor.

si

So...30:70?

60/40

total attack is 48
second hit is frame 24
shield stun is 15

48 - (24+15) also assuming pit experiences no extra lag on hit connect
48 - 39
Leaves you with 9 frames to respond? For sheik that plenty of time for a dash attack to connect even after a long slide. a lot of the time you are going to be able to walk in and ftilt.

Dash Attack yes... I just don't see us doing a f-tilt after we take two hits on our shield, take shield stun and slide back.

I awaken... I can type again. almost.

I don't know I'm pretty sure pit isn't that bad as long as you aren't giving him easy damage. he dies really light and if you force him to recover low. (A lot of pits go this route habitually) you net a kill just about every time. recovering high for pit espeacially versus sheik is risky.

I go wolf versus pit.

<3 is correct... Like every other match up "you play it right and use the right options you will win".



Last time I help on a match up. <,< Besides, Koky knows everything and he can take care of it.

I forgot to point out that Sheik's ftilt actually clashes with Pit's fsmash first hit. Whatever.

out prioritized?

 

[Steel]

Also watch out for his fsmash locking on your shield

 

[saviorslegacy]

Also watch out for his fsmash locking on your shield

Oh isn't that funny.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Thank you.

Thank you so much for once again make me so happy about my choice to stop being a major part of this community.

Sometimes I wonder, hmmm, did I make the right choice?

Then I see nonsense about Pit's f-smash being so amazing and I know in my heart that I made the right choice.

For the record I think Pit wins this, but not for the garbage that you posted about his f-smash among other things.

 

[Steel]

looooooooooooooooooooool

 

[saviorslegacy]

i Forgot To Point Out That Sheik's Ftilt Actually Clashes With Pit's Fsmash First Hit. Whatever.

Is it Out Prioritized!??!?!?!!?!?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Anything can clank with anything with the right timing aside from aerials.

 

[<π]

that isn't true at all. try beating pound or bowser's fsmash a falcon punch. there are a punch of moves that can't be out prioritized really.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Anything can clank with anything with the right timing aside from aerials.

This is true.

This means that my guess work was pretty **** close.

 

[East]

This is true.

This means that my guess work was pretty **** close.

I don't believe this until I see you clank a falcon punch with jab.

From what I've heard, any moves within 10% [damage-wise] of each other will clank. For example, our F-Tilt will clank with the F-Smash.

 

[saviorslegacy]

kk... then I can just say this since it is clanking.
jab> FSmash

 

[Zankoku]

Anything can clank with anything with the right timing aside from aerials.

that isn't true at all. try beating pound or bowser's fsmash a falcon punch. there are a punch of moves that can't be out prioritized really.

Okay, just to clarify.

There are two major kinds of hitboxes:
the ones that CAN clash (most attacks)
and the ones that CAN'T (e.g. Meta Knight's aerial normals, Sheik's needles)

regardless of what kind of an attack it is, the hitboxes that CAN'T clash will not clash even if the following rules state that it should.

Ground normals can clash with other ground normals and specials.
Aerial normals can clash with specials.
Specials can clash with ground normal, aerial normals, and specials.
Glide attacks are classified as specials.

With the exception of clashing with specials, which can clash regardless of damage difference, attacks will only clash if they are within 10% damage of each other.

If a ground normal clashes, its animation is immediately canceled. The exception to this is clashing with a special, in which case the animation will continue, and the attack's hitbox is "nullified" unless the difference between the attack and the special it clashed with is greater than 10%.

If an aerial normal clashes, its animation continues but the attack's hitbox is "nullified."

If a ground special clashes, its animation is immediately canceled. If an aerial special clashes, the animation continues but that hitbox is "nullified."

 

[<π]

oh. Thanks Ankoku.

 

[choknater]

**** ankoku, how do u figure out all this stuff

 

[Zankoku]

I wanted to stop getting randomly gayed by things I don't understand and go "****, how/why the hell did that happen?"

Now I get randomly gayed by things and go "****, I know exactly why/how the hell that happened!"

 

[choknater]

rofl, too good ankoku

so can i stop mario's fireball with sheik's bair, for example?

 

[-Mars-]

rofl, too good ankoku

so can i stop mario's fireball with sheik's bair, for example?

Sheiks nair, ftilt, and jabs clank with fireballs.......i'm pretty sure bair does too.

 

[stealth3654]

Since no one is talking about how to play the Pit match-up, we will move on to: Wolf.

Discuss!!!

 

[Flamingo]

When clashing happens.. there is a certain amount of force that takes place. I mean no one asked, but if you use multi-hit attacks such as a Luigi Down Special vs. a Watergun or FLUDD for instance, you get pressed upward very far for some reason, excluding the amount of push from the attack itself..

Also, if two damaging attacks that give the characters invincibilty frames hit the other character that still has invincibility frames, a similar "force" takes place and can push a character where he should otherwise not be moved. If that makes any sense.

example: in tourney I was playing MK against a Pikachu and used a grounded shuttle loop (has invinci frames) at the exact same time Pika was hit and granted invinci frames by hitting himself with Thunder, I was rocketed to the top of the screen without being damaged, maintaining my glide. I was forced to immediately cancel shuttle loop to keep from gliding off the screen, and I died being hit while in freefall. it was the most bogus thing ever. But now I know "How the **** these things happen" lol.

Question: Have any of you noticed anything like that happen with Vanish? It has a TON of invinci frames.

 

[choknater]

just ftilt wolf

u actually have to play kinda defensive since he moves pretty fast, he can space autocancel fairs and bairs easily

and then forward smash and ftilt set up a really good zone in front of him which makes it hard to get in to ftilt and stuff... well, kinda

the best way to approach him is just from the air, with fairs and nairs and stuff, just dont do it blindly into a shield or u will get grabbed

other than that, just ftilt-> usmash him all dai son

edge guarding is easy too.. just like edge guarding falco except not as reliable

u guys got this matchup (harder than fox IMO but easier than falco)

 

[stealth3654]

Lol, Chok pretty much summed it up. Anyone know what stage to CP/ban?

 

[East]

CP's: I'm going to go with Norfair and Lylat. Norfair because sheik generally does well there. I don't see Wolf doing the same. Lylat, because Lylat usually wrecks the spacies. I don't think he can, but can anyone confirm if he can or can't scar on this level?

 

[-Mars-]

Norfair would eliminate a ton of Wolfs recovery problems. I think in all actuality Japes would be a really good stage to CP Wolf on......even though his dsmash would kill really early there.

 

[iLight]

i would say lylat, pokemon stadium 1, wolf has serious recovery problems on both of those stages

stages to ban would be yoshis, and castle siege because wolf is amazing on both of those stages. Also because on yoshis the platform could potentially mess up your approaches, and on castle siege, the same thing + tilted ground + stage changes + wolf can kill easily off the sides and on top of that on the second stage change you don't even have to recover....

this match up isn't that hard, just like chok said except that i approach on the ground using shield dashes and try to bait his smash attacks, which all wolves love to spam for some reason. As long as you hold shield through them, you win. Just watch out for the grab and be ready to f-tilt away

 

[<π]

The only wolf I've played is CO18's... was not hard. but he was far from experinced with him.

Tilt lock actually works on a larger range than fox. you have a better ground game he has a slightly better air game unless you can get below him. Watch hasty approaches. don't let him space bair. punish his mistakes

Also he can out camp you.

Wolf isn't going to be easy to gimp not as easy as fox and falco.

I can't really see this match up in my head but I can see it going either way if you are fast to underestimate wolf. Like most of you are with fox. <.<

just sayin'

 

[iLight]

i always over estimate everyone because i'm not actually good at the game, that's why people in turn underestimate me and I can win sometimes

 

[-Mars-]

The only wolf I've played is CO18's... was not hard. but he was far from experinced with him.

Tilt lock actually works on a larger range than fox. you have a better ground game he has a slightly better air game unless you can get below him. Watch hasty approaches. don't let him space bair. punish his mistakes

Also he can out camp you.

Wolf isn't going to be easy to gimp not as easy as fox and falco.

I can't really see this match up in my head but I can see it going either way if you are fast to underestimate wolf. Like most of you are with fox. <.<

just sayin'

Your post is really filled with a lot of errors on this one <3. Sheik doesn't have a better ground game than Wolf......I don't know why you said tilt lock works better on him than Fox......it doesn't. Wolfs ground game is actually really good and he has one of the better punishers in the game in his fsmash. His jab is also really good and of course everyone hates dsmash.

Wolfs laser isn't really much of a problem for Sheik imo......and he has a reflector but that doesn't completely nullify needles or anything.

Wolf is way easier to gimp than Fox. Fox has an rising fair, shinestallling, firefox covers a lot of distance, and of course he has illusion. A lot of times with Fox you don't even need to use a recovery move because of his rising fair.

All Wolf pretty much has is side B because if he ever is forced use his up b beneath the stage.......you should be taking his stock.

 

[<π]

upB above the stage is pretty beast.
shine stalling off stage is overrated.

Wolf on the other hand can go further than foxes fire fox, is much heavier than fox whic greatly increase his survivability off stage even when hit. Over B can be used to land on or off stage from below needle level.

wolf has fsmash which is a great punisher. sheik shouldn't be getting punished by it though since you should be using laggy easily punished stuff. jab is wolf's fastest attack coming out at 3 or 4 or something? we out range him with jab and are faster at 2. after that ftilt comes out at five tieing or beating everything wolf can do while still out ranging him all the while. that said wolf has tons of lag time on all of his ground stuff making him very very easy to punish if he does decide to try and go against you on the ground. chances are he won't though

I didn't mean wolf is eaier to lock than fox I mean he is succeptable to it during a longer window. fox falls heavy but he is light you can hit him out of it if you start fresh around like 40-45%. wolf doesn't get hit as far. and in my experince he will catch more damage at higher percents even if the move is fresh.

maybe blaster isn't a huge issue for you. but it move at a decent speed and really cuts off spacing and approach options it is one of the few projectiles in the game sheik can't duck under and thats a huge minus for her approach and spacing game. you have to shield dodge or jump over it. all of which put you in a bad spot verus wolf.

needles aren't as effective because of lagless aerials and teh properties of wolf's shine. either he is reflecting or he isn't getting hit you don't have the window of opertunity you get with other reflecting characters.


I'm not trying to dress him up and make him sound unbeatable. but everyone has a tendency to look just at a characters flaws instead of look at them as a whole. thats how you loose matches really quick.

 

[-Mars-]

upB above the stage is pretty beast.
shine stalling off stage is overrated.

Wolf on the other hand can go further than foxes fire fox, is much heavier than fox whic greatly increase his survivability off stage even when hit. Over B can be used to land on or off stage from below needle level.

wolf has fsmash which is a great punisher. sheik shouldn't be getting punished by it though since you should be using laggy easily punished stuff. jab is wolf's fastest attack coming out at 3 or 4 or something? we out range him with jab and are faster at 2. after that ftilt comes out at five tieing or beating everything wolf can do while still out ranging him all the while. that said wolf has tons of lag time on all of his ground stuff making him very very easy to punish if he does decide to try and go against you on the ground. chances are he won't though

I didn't mean wolf is eaier to lock than fox I mean he is succeptable to it during a longer window. fox falls heavy but he is light you can hit him out of it if you start fresh around like 40-45%. wolf doesn't get hit as far. and in my experince he will catch more damage at higher percents even if the move is fresh.

maybe blaster isn't a huge issue for you. but it move at a decent speed and really cuts off spacing and approach options it is one of the few projectiles in the game sheik can't duck under and thats a huge minus for her approach and spacing game. you have to shield dodge or jump over it. all of which put you in a bad spot verus wolf.

needles aren't as effective because of lagless aerials and teh properties of wolf's shine. either he is reflecting or he isn't getting hit you don't have the window of opertunity you get with other reflecting characters.


I'm not trying to dress him up and make him sound unbeatable. but everyone has a tendency to look just at a characters flaws instead of look at them as a whole. thats how you loose matches really quick.

So what if shine stalling is overrated? It's still another option for Fox that Wolf doesn't have. I personally love punishing Wolfs landing on the stage with their up bs.......oh and Fox can do that too if that's what you were implying. Fire Fox has about the same distance as Wolfs up b.......don't know why you wanted to post that.

Oh and Wolf doesn't really have much lag on his ground moveset sans fsmash. His dsmash is actually incredibly low on the lag side and it comes out on frame 6. There are a lot of characters in the game that have a slower moveset than Sheik, but in reality we're only beating him by one or two frames so if you think that a couple frames is that big of a deal then so be it.........but it's not unless you play perfect. I know Sheik isn't going to be lagging that much but if you ever make a mistake Wolf has his frame 5 fsmash waiting for you.

His blaster isn't really a huge problem and it's rather slow so a lot of times you can hit him with a full needle storm as he's using his blaster as long as you're not too far away..........and i'll trade 18% for 6% anyday.

 

[stealth3654]

Alright, there wasn't really much to say about the Wolf match-up so we will move on to: Toon Link!

Discuss!!!

 

[Zankoku]

I think Toon Link is a character with a very annoying projectile game, especially when used in tandem with his bair and zair. However, everything he does has a gap of varying size, being largest with his projectiles and smash attacks, and smallest with his zair. Those small openings are probably what you'll want to go for, as well as edgeguarding, since Toon Link's recovery is decidedly linear. Watch out for bombs, since those can combo into things like dairs.

I don't remember if Toon Link could be ftilt locked or not, but my feeling's telling me no, so you should instead just run standard ftiltx2-ender combos, if you plan on taking the ftilt-usmash path to the KO.

 

[East]

Don't play his ranged game, it is not fun. From my experience getting inside him hurts him a lot. Sheik's speed is probably your best friend in this match-up. Keep pressure on him, cause giving Toon Link time to get adjusted doesn't end well for you. Like Ankoku said, gimp him. Foward Tilt can help, but he's no fox. Your safe with 2-3. Beware the gimmicks and tricks. From what I've seen from Santi and my buddy who plays Toon-Link, they've gotten pretty sneaky with tricks.

 

[<π]

I did this backwards I have work so I gtg... I'll edit this line or soem such bye!


for you being sheik every thing he does spare jab on the ground has more than enough lag to punish. dsmash can be punished with dash attack. his fsmash with ftilt he can't say that for your ground game and your ground based presure tools.

you are sheik and he is wolf you should just give up damagae. far away you are going to be trading 6-10 for 6-3.

 

[choknater]

pressure toon link HARD

imo this is one of the funnest matchups in the game

he can do a lot of stuff and if he gets good spamming momentum, the damage can be racked really high... and then when u think u have a chance just cuz u got in... he'll start using zairs and usmashes and tilts and stuff. it's so fun though because you can actually gimp him with chain hogs and bairs. sheik heavily outspeeds him in very close range with jabs and ftilt, but he has ways to deal with you. the matchup is 55-45 or 60-40 sheik's advantage IMO but the really great tlinks will use spamming, zairs, and priority so well sometimes that it can really go either way.

sheiks, this is the funnest matchup. this and peach. u guys got this