Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

[GoadMoose]

My friend alts IC's (which aren't tourney-ready), but so far it seems needles are good against them since they like to stay back and bait grabs. You can Stilt lock about 5 times i think, but if both aren't locked (more often than not) you will probly get hit. Their side-b is what racks up the most damage on me most of the time... Also: gimping Nana is very easy to do, keep Popo away with STilt -> DSmash and gimp Nana with needles/Fair/Bair. You can also ledge-hog with tether since Nana's Up-B alone doesn't do any damage. I can usually seperate them with a Dsmash and then chase whichever one is better to chase/try to kill at the time. Pretty much don't get grabbed, and don't do risky things like needling while in the air because of the long lag once you hit the ground. I'm comfortable with SV, BF, and Yoshi's against them, don't go FD or any walk-off stages (obviously). The CG to Meteor can be canceled, or if you DI to the side (away from stage) their Dair will be sourspotted and won't hit you downwards.

 

[Zankoku]

I think you're doing a lot of things that would get you grabbed against any high-level Ice Climbers.

 

[GoadMoose]

Yea.. the only high-level IC player I've played is Lain, and he ***** me. Just thought I'd share my experiences against a low-level IC =/

 

[momochuu]

I think what makes this matchup so ridiculous is that Shiek can't do...Shiek stuff against ICs. Most of her tools are completely taken away:

Needles: Not going to work. Ice Blocks stop most projectiles until they start to melt. They can be desynched as well so that a constant barrage of Ice Blocks stop any needles she can throw.

Forward Tilt: Not gonna work either. Well, most of the time. If Shiek screws up, she will be getting grabbed or come out extremely hurt though. I really don't think the risk is worth it though and would not use this move. :x

A single Ice Climber can chaingrab Shiek to about 40+% with Down Throw. That's defenitely something to think about. Most of her reliable kill setups become useless because the other Ice Climber is there. =/ I think the most she can do is BAir gimp Nana, and that's easier said than done.

Edit: I'm not trying to trash Sheik, it's just how it is. Lol. x.x

 

[GoadMoose]

Edit: I'm not trying to trash Sheik, it's just how it is. Lol. x.x[/COLOR]

Word, it felt like I couldn't do anything against Lain.

Edit: Which probly makes sense because there's a huge difference in skill between us

 

[stealth3654]

Sheik won't be able to do much in this match-up until Sheik somehow separates Nana and Popo. Nana's AI is kinda crappy, so after separating them, chasing Nana and gimping her should not be that difficult unless Popo comes and saves Nana with up B. If you somehow manage to separate and kill Nana, Popo shouldn't pose too much of a threat. Just watch out for the down throw chain grab. Also, if Popo is alone, Sheik can grab release to tipper DACUS.

I think the best stage to CP is RC because it is always moving, so IC can't pull their CG for too long. Also, it should be easier to gimp Nana on this stage.

Make sure to ban FD for this match-up. Having a flat neutral stage makes it hard for Sheik to approach the IC. Someone needs to check if needles can go through IC's ice blocks. If they can't, the more the reason to ban this stage.

 

[momochuu]

All of the needles stop when they hit an Ice Block IIRC.

 

[East]

This is probably the one match-up where Zelda is worth learning. Apparently she has a favorable match-up against IC's.

 

[Tristan_win]

This is probably the one match-up where Zelda is worth learning. Apparently she has a favorable match-up against IC's.

Even if it's not favorable it is at least more favorable then sheik since the heart of her game isn't ripe away like it is for sheik. Something good to note though if you manage to kill nanna then you should switch back to sheik since she has a grab release into dacus on IC's. Ice climbers are not hard to grab...at all.

Thinking of grabbing wouldn't a grab into immediate(buffer if possible) fthrow be fairly safe since you would be able to hit both ice climbers? One with the throw the second with the punch, although it's pretty high risk I can see it being a option especially with grabs super amour.

 

[East]

Even if it's not favorable it is at least more favorable then sheik since the heart of her game isn't ripe away like it is for sheik. Something good to note though if you manage to kill nanna then you should switch back to sheik since she has a grab release into dacus on IC's. Ice climbers are not hard to grab...at all.

Thinking of grabbing wouldn't a grab into immediate(buffer if possible) fthrow be fairly safe since you would be able to hit both ice climbers? One with the throw the second with the punch, although it's pretty high risk I can see it being a option especially with grabs super amour.

lol, but sheik can still be chain grabbed by just one ice climber. I mean if it came right down to it, I'd much rather just gimp Popo. It's way easier.

 

[KRDsonic]

Sheik vs. Ice Climbers is just... sad. They're both my two main characters, and I can say that I'd rather be on the Ice Climber side of it any day.

Sheik is extremely easy to chain grab, and 1 climber can chain grab her and end with an Fsmash at the end of the stage, then grab the edge and attempt an edgeguard.

Sheik's Ftilt is annoying to Ice Climbers, and for some reason Nana doesn't tend to DI the same way as Popo from it, so that's a possibility of splitting them up.

Needles stop Ice Blocks, Ice Blocks are less effective because of Needles, I personally would rather have the needles in this matchup since they can stop desynced approaches. Too bad Ice Climbers don't have to approach Sheik.

Blizzard actually doesn't seem as helpful against Sheik as it is against most characters, to me. Mostly that's because they don't need it.


In the end, I'd say just switch to Zelda. Even if you don't know how to use Zelda, use her. Her hitboxes and din's fire screw the Ice Climbers over.

If you choose to use Sheik though, counterpick Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, or Norfair.

 

[stealth3654]

In addition to FD, you should not go to walk off stages like Delfino and Castle Siege because the IC can chain grab you to the edge and kill you. Also, Popo can do his down throw CG to the edge, finish with a fthrow or fsmash, and kill you.

 

[Zankoku]

If you're serious about making the most out of playing against IC's, you should be sensible and not pick Sheik at all in the matchup.

 

[stealth3654]

How well does IC get past the chain?

 

[Zankoku]

They outrange it with Blizzard.

 

[<π]

I'd say stuff like learn to space but I won't.
I'd say needles destroy all IC ground approach options but... who'd believe me?

the match up isn't in her favor but if you don't mind camping it's an easy win. They can't approach you and you have a better projectile camp game.


I'll clearify. Ice shot does spot needles. thats true, but ice blocks have crazy lag and start up time. Needles are an excellent tool to punish any wiffed IC move very very safely. Ice shot is purely a defensive attack.

Zelda isn't special against the ICs she still has the same issue. I don't believe she is any better in the match up. Din's is actually useful here but spare that all ICs have to do in not blindly approach and like with every character in the game zelda's big hit boxes and bigger knock back mean very little.

I obviously don't know abything about the game though, lol. I have a different opinion.

 

[stealth3654]

Since we covered the IC match-up nice and quick, we will move on to our next match-up: Kirby!

Discuss!!!

 

[Zankoku]

Important Note: Don't listen to me.

Spoiler

Stay the hell away if he's jumping with his back to you. He's lighter than Wario and leaves larger gaps, but in return you don't have a grab release KO on him and his fsmash is absurdly powerful.

Discourage any excessive camping with needles, but otherwise play a normal cautious game. You can't really ftilt lock Kirby, so it's down to ftilt x2 into ender. Go with either utilt or fair, depending on which seems to lead to better setups for you. The ftilt nair combo deals decent damage but seeing as how Kirby's not gonna let you land random smashes on him I'm rather loathe to decay Sheik's strongest aerial.

Chain works great if he starts getting a little too close with his aerial camping, but Final Cutter gets right past it, so don't hold it out for any longer than you have to. Kirby can duck under single needles, so most of the time it isn't worth it to throw any less than a full charge. Being light, a Vanish KO isn't too unreasonable. Try to time it to take out his recovery, since his Up+B doesn't auto-grab the ledge from below.

It's not a terrible idea to go Zelda in this matchup either. His aerial camping is much more dangerous when it can be met with lightning kicks, and you'll no longer have a priority problem. On the other hand, your recovery will be much more vulnerable.

 

[stealth3654]

How well does Kirby CG Sheik and Zelda?

 

[Tristan_win]

How well does Kirby CG Sheik and Zelda?

Badly, if they guess right then can sometimes instantly bring you up to 50%. Before the ftilt into usmash I had more or less decided the match up being too difficult to effectively use sheik for....However with the ftilt to usmash mix with his light weight it's very possible to do it on him and in a very low %.

Like ankoku said the chain does work but I suggest only doing it under a platform because even if you manage to get kirby in a volley in chain hits he can just DI up into stone which can kill... The platform also makes the final cutter less effective especially on stages like Yoshi story.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Badly, if they guess right then can sometimes instantly bring you up to 50%. Before the ftilt into usmash I had more or less decided the match up being too difficult to effectively use sheik for....However with the ftilt to usmash mix with his light weight it's very possible to do it on him and in a very low %.

Like ankoku said the chain does work but I suggest only doing it under a platform because even if you manage to get kirby in a volley in chain hits he can just DI up into stone which can kill... The platform also makes the final cutter less effective especially on stages like Yoshi story.

*Nair gets out of it

 

[noradseven]

Ehhh I have never really had too bad of a problem with kirby in this match, like said above n-air gets out of his cheesy chain grab thingy, and if you start sniping angles on kirby with your aireals, you can really rule this match, plus if he is forced to do his up B, for a recovery, if you time it right you can up B reset him, doesn't work as well on kirby as it does on DDD though, also depending on the stage and how he did his up B he can DI out of it, but still you get a free up B hit so its not so bad.

 

[Tristan_win]

*Nair gets out of it

No it doesn't, it can beat one of the various options kirby has in the higher percents but if kirby follows up with a fsmash it will beat the nair.

 

[fromundaman]

Ummm no... if we even start our Fthrowyou can Nair us before we even get the first Uair in. Our Fthrow combos don't work on shiek.

That being said, Dthrow combos do!

Also, while Shiek is harder to combo than some, she's definitely not too tough. Also, she'll have a tough time killing us (Unless you've mastered chain jacketing and jacket a Usmash), whereas she dies pretty easily if we land a KO move on her, as well as being fairly gimpable (though if we aren't careful in our gimpings, we're going to eat vanish, and it will hurt.).

Not really sure how well the chain works in this matchup, but I kind of doubt we can SDI up and rock... That thing takes forever to work, and I don't think we can really get high enough above you to hit, and if we can, it's not the first thing a Kirby player will think of.

I believe you are at a disadvantage if you are above us, as Shiek doesn't really have a reliable way of striking below her, since her Dair seems pretty bad from an outsiders point of View, so you want to watch out for Uair chains.

Our Bair is disjoincted and strong, so be careful. I think your Bair and Nair outrange it though, but I could be wrong.

If we do Final Cutter, powershield/jump over it and punish it. We have so much lag on that thing it's not even funny.

On the ground, your tilts outrange us, and your Dsmash is faster than anything we have I believe.

And now, the biggest thing that tips this in our favor IMO:
We can inhale you, wait for you to break out, then get a guaranteed footstool.
Now we can do this on other characters too, but here's the thing: Very few of your moves outrange inhale, and your recovery is pretty linear. This all sets up for this scenario.
Granted, I haven't played any top level Shieks, but the last decent Shiek I played lost 2 stocks in less than a minute due to this and then switched to Zelda.

 

[Zankoku]

Also, she'll have a tough time killing us (Unless you've mastered chain jacketing and jacket a Usmash)

This is the one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

Nobody regularly goes for a chain jacket, and nobody who knows how to would jacket an usmash with the intent of outright killing with it.

The rest of your post is fine.

 

[A1lion835]

Because of sheik's strange hurtbox, she can escape the gonzo combo (kirby has to wait a second before he can uair, which lets sheik jump and/or airdodge away). Also, something strange happens with kirby and needles: if he gets needles, charges them (I only know that it works for full charged, but probably works on other charges too), loses his power in any way (taunting, getting hit, dying) and then gets needles back, he'll have whatever charge of needles he had before AND he doesn't glow/sparkle/potato if he had full charge the first time.

Edit: Yea, fromundaman knows his stuff.

 

[fromundaman]

This is the one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

Nobody regularly goes for a chain jacket, and nobody who knows how to would jacket an usmash with the intent of outright killing with it.

The rest of your post is fine.

Meh, I dunno. Last time I visited your boards was quite a while back, and you guys were discussing chain jacketing a bit still. I figured you guys may have found an easy way/taken the time to learn to consistently chain jackets, since it would essentially solve your KO troubles.

Since you guys didn't, then as the statement you quoted says, you're going to have a tough time getting KOs as long as we watch out for the Usmash.
Though if I remember correctly, your Bair kills fairly well if sweetspotted and fresh, right?

 

[Zankoku]

ftilt usmash is much more reliable anyway, and how the hell would we have an easy time KOing with chain jacket when Sheik is stationary when her chain is out? Not only that, but Kirby can easily just Final Cutter to interrupt it. There is no possible way any intelligent player will be outright KO'd by a chain jacket. Edgeguarding, MAYBE. But on-stage? It won't happen.

 

[fromundaman]

Hmmm... gotcha.

I thought if you used the chain in the air it still worked, but nevermind. I don't know nearly as much as you guys about Shiek, so there's no point in discussing this. If you tell me it won't work, I'll take your word for it.

Also, how reliable is Ftilt>Usmash at higher percents? Can we DI out of it? Is it only at certain percents?

 

[Zankoku]

It works at many, many percents, including the fatal ones, but relies entirely on having the ftilt decayed properly. If you make it impossible for Sheik to land ftilts on you regularly (you know, like ftilt ftilt nair, ftilt utilt, etc.) then Sheik can't really maintain proper decay for it at the KO %.

 

[fromundaman]

Gotcha. Thanks for the info.

 

[stealth3654]

And now, the biggest thing that tips this in our favor IMO:
We can inhale you, wait for you to break out, then get a guaranteed footstool.
Now we can do this on other characters too, but here's the thing: Very few of your moves outrange inhale, and your recovery is pretty linear. This all sets up for this scenario.
Granted, I haven't played any top level Shieks, but the last decent Shiek I played lost 2 stocks in less than a minute due to this and then switched to Zelda.

I haven't heard about this before. What can Kirby do out of the footstool?

 

[Kewkky]

I haven't heard about this before. What can Kirby do out of the footstool?

Inhale you, jump offstage, and kirbycide. If you try to break out, we footstool you and survive while you die. If for some reason you don't go low enough, then we can dair spike you and come back onstage.

Incredible gimp setup, don't you think?

 

[Asdioh]

I haven't really played any good Sheiks (yes, I spelled it right, unlike the vast majority of people) offline, but hopefully that will change at the Ohio tourney this coming Saturday. I'm pretty sure a good Sheik main or two will be there.

Anyway, I'm going to guess that it's a relatively even matchup, slightly in Kirby's favor. Sheik does have faster speed though, both on the ground, and in the air. I'm not sure exactly what her airspeed is, and I'm too lazy to look right now, but I feel like it's far faster than Kirby's, especially since he's pretty freaking slow.

By the way, we can crouch under fully charged Needles, except I think when Kirby does his "crouch idle" animation, which slightly raises him up so he gets hit by the needles.

Kirby with Needle power is too good.

 

[Zankoku]

Sorry, I'm not going to the champs, and since clowsui's more of a Falco/Marth main, I can't even really give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't know of any other Sheik players worth mentioning in the Midwest. Let me know if you meet any.

 

[Asdioh]

*points at GoadMoose*

*doesn't know anything about him*

 

[fromundaman]

I haven't heard about this before. What can Kirby do out of the footstool?

Watch you die, or, alternatively, FF Dair into another footstool. Repeat until death.

 

[GoadMoose]

*points at GoadMoose*

*doesn't know anything about him*

Shhhh... I'm not presentable to the Sheiks yet
We need to play at the Champs this Saturday, even though I don't think I've met you yet :O

 

[clowsui]

tony i'm not going to be there this saturday =P sheik's my secondary though so it's not really that big of a deal.
crossjeremiah will be there if he can get a ride from EC, he's supposed to be pretty good. uhhhhhhhhhhh who else is good (not moose...not gay enough) that's it. yeah, cross is our only good/decent sheik going to MWC (not saviors...has no experience)
asdioh go to crunchatize me capem so that i can play you..

 

[<π]

um........... hard match up bair is too hard to beat, needles are hard to hit with.
kirby has a really strong air game, his range makes it hard to land hits. his light weight makes combos and follow up difficult. Chain is stupid.

All that said no sheik should be getting swallowed unless they already couldn't recover. Just sayin'