saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Yes it was. It was also a joke.
(it will probally end up being like the DLX combo and rhe DACUS combo)
Falco's and Links still call it DLX. lol
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Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread
- Thread starter stealth3654
- Start date
(it will probally end up being like the DLX combo and rhe DACUS combo)
Falco's and Links still call it DLX. lol
I thought they call it the gatling combo. I think the sheik boards may go out of their way to not call it swan as we tend to not name combos anyway.
on topic: Neither sheik nor zelda do well in this matchup =(, but together I think they can bring it closer to even maybe an advantage. I have no idea why zelda is at a disdvantage (i'm guessing it has to do with getting outspaced and getting killed earlier than luc, because of weight, and getting outcamped too), but I can't imagine its so bad the switching isn't viable.
Only other way I can think of is to gimp consistently or land ftilt->usmash consistently, but you have to do something because leaving lucario at ~120 is insanely dangerous and just makes an already bad match much worse.
on topic: Neither sheik nor zelda do well in this matchup =(, but together I think they can bring it closer to even maybe an advantage. I have no idea why zelda is at a disdvantage (i'm guessing it has to do with getting outspaced and getting killed earlier than luc, because of weight, and getting outcamped too), but I can't imagine its so bad the switching isn't viable.
Only other way I can think of is to gimp consistently or land ftilt->usmash consistently, but you have to do something because leaving lucario at ~120 is insanely dangerous and just makes an already bad match much worse.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
No
The Gatling Combo is used by Falco. It is: Dash Attack> USmash
It is kinda like the DACUS but without sliding and both attacks hit.
"DLX Hit-Cancel" was a joke name, termed by DarkLinkX, given to canceling the dash attack animation on hit-confirm into the usmash. It's possible with Falco, Wario, and Snake. Some people suggested calling it the Gatling Combo, as a nod to Guilty Gear's terming for hit-confirm attack cancels.
stealth3654
Smash Lord
Okay, lets try not to stray too far off topic guys. If you have any info about the Lucario match-up, please post them.
I think you should ban Frigate Orpheon in this match-up. On the first part of the stage, there is no ledge on the right, so you can't tether grab or sweet spot the ledge. Lucario, on the other hand, can up B > wall cling > jump on stage. He can do this on the left ledge too, as well as both ledges on the second part of the stage. This makes gimping very hard for you, but easier for Lucario. Take him to FD were you can needle camp him the easiest, but watch out for his up B to wall cling recovery in the lip of the ledges.
I think you should ban Frigate Orpheon in this match-up. On the first part of the stage, there is no ledge on the right, so you can't tether grab or sweet spot the ledge. Lucario, on the other hand, can up B > wall cling > jump on stage. He can do this on the left ledge too, as well as both ledges on the second part of the stage. This makes gimping very hard for you, but easier for Lucario. Take him to FD were you can needle camp him the easiest, but watch out for his up B to wall cling recovery in the lip of the ledges.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
fair is pretty nice for taking care of that weakspot, but I think it is still somewhat penetrable because of sheik's aerial speed (I hate bair's range+speed). It has a pretty decent arc, so I wouldn't say it's entirely a "blind spot". However, I do see some vulnerability in the arc behind him.
legion598
Smash Ace
needles go through lucarios stupid ball
his recovery is severely gimpable by shiek <ish
Fsmash is ********> u basically have to shield it and punish
alot of shieks attacks are safe if lucario counters them and u can punish his counter attack
dont use tether recovery because of lucarios Dair
be sure to air dodge if lucario starts Fairing u off stage
good luck killing lucario he survives alot of crap :/
^this will make him absurdly powerful while ur trying to kill him fervently
his recovery is severely gimpable by shiek <ish
Fsmash is ********> u basically have to shield it and punish
alot of shieks attacks are safe if lucario counters them and u can punish his counter attack
dont use tether recovery because of lucarios Dair
be sure to air dodge if lucario starts Fairing u off stage
good luck killing lucario he survives alot of crap :/
^this will make him absurdly powerful while ur trying to kill him fervently
Hello Sheik Boarders.
You are currently being discussed at the Falco boards.
Your input in the matchup thread would be greatly appreciated.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233858
Thanks
~The Only Decent Space Animal~
You are currently being discussed at the Falco boards.
Your input in the matchup thread would be greatly appreciated.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233858
Thanks
~The Only Decent Space Animal~
stealth3654
Smash Lord
Hey guys, what stages do you think should be CP/banned against Lucario and what do you think the match-up ratio is?
In the interest of letting someone who actually cares about numbers doing it, I'll only go as far as to say that Lucario has a definite but not heavy advantage.
As for CP's, I'd consider Smashville to remove walls and make it easier to edgeguard Lucario's relatively vulnerable recovery. Alternatively you can try Halberd to limit both players' life expectancies.
As for CP's, I'd consider Smashville to remove walls and make it easier to edgeguard Lucario's relatively vulnerable recovery. Alternatively you can try Halberd to limit both players' life expectancies.
stealth3654
Smash Lord
Okay, moving on to the next character: Donkey Kong.
Discuss!!!
Discuss!!!
Leafplayer452
Smash Journeyman
Best way to beat a DK is to keep it in the air, and try to predict the bairs and ALSO TRY TO TECH THE CARGO SPIKE. And DACUS
stealth3654
Smash Lord
You are able to hold up when DK cargos you and it acts just like pressing all the buttons really fast. So you break out fast.
DK does really good in the match up. His ground game is way better than yours, you beat him easy in the air though.
You needles to force sloppy approaches wait for grab ops to get him in the air. dash attack OOS on like ftilt and smashes and junk to get him in the air.
You needles to force sloppy approaches wait for grab ops to get him in the air. dash attack OOS on like ftilt and smashes and junk to get him in the air.
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
6-4 dk just due to stock length and range, sheik is one of the easier people to punch/gimp too so that factors in, expect a stock or two to go in the 80s
jmex and <3 said everything else I was going to say (except dk's bair keeps him alive in the air, but facing forward yeah he's kinda ****ed)
jmex and <3 said everything else I was going to say (except dk's bair keeps him alive in the air, but facing forward yeah he's kinda ****ed)
choknater
Smash Obsessed
what about if u use zelda for KO's?
stealth3654
Smash Lord
What stages do you guys think we should CP/ban against DK?
I'm thinking RC should be a CP because gimping is easier there, and IDK what to ban against DK.
I'll be gone until late on Friday, so this thread won't be updated until I come back.
I'm thinking RC should be a CP because gimping is easier there, and IDK what to ban against DK.
I'll be gone until late on Friday, so this thread won't be updated until I come back.
Tristan_win
Not dead.
6-4 against sheik eh?
I've never had any problems fighting dks before expect for Hulk's on allisbrawl. I mean we got mutiple combos starters from like 10% and we can gimp his recovery with the fair, bair, vanish and if he hits are shield with a smash attack we got a guaranteed dacus even tipper on him for at least the fsmash if not the down as well. Just **** him with what makes sheik **** before can he **** you with what makes dk ****.
I've never had any problems fighting dks before expect for Hulk's on allisbrawl. I mean we got mutiple combos starters from like 10% and we can gimp his recovery with the fair, bair, vanish and if he hits are shield with a smash attack we got a guaranteed dacus even tipper on him for at least the fsmash if not the down as well. Just **** him with what makes sheik **** before can he **** you with what makes dk ****.
Dk can rack damage fast his big hit boxes make approaches hard and spacing well more difficult as well. between DKs quick tilts and bair it can become hard to sheik him before you are DKed.
Zelda would probably work to kill us although just make sure were not near you when you change. Trust us, we will kill you in the 70's if you do.
Rainbow cruise should work, although it depends on the players thats using DK tbh.
Rainbow cruise should work, although it depends on the players thats using DK tbh.
lol DK can kill in the 30s
Fsmash? That is like the strongest move in the game right?
Fsmash? That is like the strongest move in the game right?
stealth3654
Smash Lord
I think it's DDD's fsmash, then Ike's fsmash. But anyways....
Moving on to the next character: Diddy Kong!
Discuss!!!
Moving on to the next character: Diddy Kong!
Discuss!!!
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
hmmm.. Diddy eh?
Well for starters I would like to say that this match up is over rated.
People are to afraid of Banana's. The key to fighting Diddy is to control the Banana's.
If you do that you pretty much put a wound in his side.
Secondly it is probably a good idea to take Diddy to Battle Field. There he will have a harder time controlling you with Banana's.
When Diddy doesn't have Banana's he has attacks that are slower than yours and for the most part less ranged.
Here is a list of Banana combo's/tricks that you can use on him:
If you air dodge into a Banana you can pick it up and throw it the instant you grab it.
You can Wave Dash and hit A to pick up Banana and hit it again to throw it. An unexpected trick most of the time.
You can Nair/Fair/Bair to pick up Banana's.
You can Dash Attack to pick up Banana's.
Grab Banana> SH throw Banana up> f-tilt lock> let Banana hit him if you are lucky (combo continues below)
Banana hits> space for a Swan/FSmash/USmash
Banana miss's (each color is another option)> u-tilt> grab Banana> jump> throw Banana> Dash Attack/DACUS
grab Banana> throw Banana> Needle's
grab if they slip onto the Banana upon release> almost whatever you want
Banana> DACUS/Dash Attack
jump over his head> drop (not throw) Banana> Chain (rare but you can do it)
I have been throwing Needles near the ledge with a Banana in my hand and a Diddy will try to Banana glide toss and follow up with a Dash attack. What I do is shield, jump, drop Banana and deploy the chain. Some times he will slip behind you and he will get reverse chain locked... until you reach his Banana though. <,< Then you slip and get punished, but who cares you already destroyed the little guy.
Banana> Needle's (does 22%)
Dash Throw> Grab
back flip> drop (not throw) Banana> Nair to pick it up> throw Banana> Dash Attack/Needles
back flip> drop Banana> Bair them into Banana (weak hit)> almost whatever you want
When controlling items you have to keep a jugglers mind set. Toss things straight up and have a set time for when they come back down. When you know they are going to come back down use them to aid in comboing.
Here is how long each Banana is in the air when using different toss's:
Banana toss up while on the ground is airborne for 2.5 seconds.
Banana toss up in the air is airborne for 2 seconds.
Banana dropped from a short hop takes 1 second to reach the ground.
Banana dropped from a full hop takes 1.5 second to reach the ground.
Banana thrown down from a full hop takes 1 second to reach the ground.
Banana thrown down from a short hop takes .5 second to reach the ground.
Jumping and throwing to the side barely influence's the distance. Stick to throwing them on the ground.
Now here is a useful trick to keep a Banana with you while you space with Airials.
(stolen from Link)
Jump> drop (not throw)> airial
The airial will make you grab the Banana again but you will also be performing an attack.
That said you can do these combo's:
jump> Banana drop> Bair/Nair/Fair (regrabs Banana)> throw Banana> almost whatever you want
On a side note.
f-tilt decay> USmash works at 81%.
See, I told you it was over rated. Sheik can use Banana better than he can. Well.. maybe. The only thing that might make him better is the fact that Diddy can Glide Toss.
I think I covered most of the Banana tricks. <,< (That took a while to type.)
I thought I should learn this match up a long time ago, and Banana control is a big part of it.
opinion?
Well for starters I would like to say that this match up is over rated.
People are to afraid of Banana's. The key to fighting Diddy is to control the Banana's.
If you do that you pretty much put a wound in his side.
Secondly it is probably a good idea to take Diddy to Battle Field. There he will have a harder time controlling you with Banana's.
When Diddy doesn't have Banana's he has attacks that are slower than yours and for the most part less ranged.
Here is a list of Banana combo's/tricks that you can use on him:
If you air dodge into a Banana you can pick it up and throw it the instant you grab it.
You can Wave Dash and hit A to pick up Banana and hit it again to throw it. An unexpected trick most of the time.
You can Nair/Fair/Bair to pick up Banana's.
You can Dash Attack to pick up Banana's.
Grab Banana> SH throw Banana up> f-tilt lock> let Banana hit him if you are lucky (combo continues below)
Banana hits> space for a Swan/FSmash/USmash
Banana miss's (each color is another option)> u-tilt> grab Banana> jump> throw Banana> Dash Attack/DACUS
grab Banana> throw Banana> Needle's
grab if they slip onto the Banana upon release> almost whatever you want
Banana> DACUS/Dash Attack
jump over his head> drop (not throw) Banana> Chain (rare but you can do it)
I have been throwing Needles near the ledge with a Banana in my hand and a Diddy will try to Banana glide toss and follow up with a Dash attack. What I do is shield, jump, drop Banana and deploy the chain. Some times he will slip behind you and he will get reverse chain locked... until you reach his Banana though. <,< Then you slip and get punished, but who cares you already destroyed the little guy.
Banana> Needle's (does 22%)
Dash Throw> Grab
back flip> drop (not throw) Banana> Nair to pick it up> throw Banana> Dash Attack/Needles
back flip> drop Banana> Bair them into Banana (weak hit)> almost whatever you want
When controlling items you have to keep a jugglers mind set. Toss things straight up and have a set time for when they come back down. When you know they are going to come back down use them to aid in comboing.
Here is how long each Banana is in the air when using different toss's:
Banana toss up while on the ground is airborne for 2.5 seconds.
Banana toss up in the air is airborne for 2 seconds.
Banana dropped from a short hop takes 1 second to reach the ground.
Banana dropped from a full hop takes 1.5 second to reach the ground.
Banana thrown down from a full hop takes 1 second to reach the ground.
Banana thrown down from a short hop takes .5 second to reach the ground.
Jumping and throwing to the side barely influence's the distance. Stick to throwing them on the ground.
Now here is a useful trick to keep a Banana with you while you space with Airials.
(stolen from Link)
Jump> drop (not throw)> airial
The airial will make you grab the Banana again but you will also be performing an attack.
That said you can do these combo's:
jump> Banana drop> Bair/Nair/Fair (regrabs Banana)> throw Banana> almost whatever you want
On a side note.
f-tilt decay> USmash works at 81%.
See, I told you it was over rated. Sheik can use Banana better than he can. Well.. maybe. The only thing that might make him better is the fact that Diddy can Glide Toss.
I think I covered most of the Banana tricks. <,< (That took a while to type.)
I thought I should learn this match up a long time ago, and Banana control is a big part of it.
opinion?
diddy has way more range than sheik and he is on par for speed, he has a stronger ground game imo, but his approach without banana's is pretty weak so yeah control the 'nanas.
Use bair to control where he can and can't go. needles are excellent and long and medium ranges. get him in the air and win. edge guarding him is purty simple if he is upBing nair him and get a kill.
Use bair to control where he can and can't go. needles are excellent and long and medium ranges. get him in the air and win. edge guarding him is purty simple if he is upBing nair him and get a kill.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
stealth3654
Smash Lord
Don't forget it's lagless.
BTW, the Diddy boards are also discussing the Sheik vs Diddy match-up. So if we talk there, we might be able to get a lot of input from the Diddy mains.
Edit: Here is the link
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181638&page=70
Player-1
Smash Legend
Savior...90% of your post was things that Sheik can do with bananas...but play a good Diddy and let's see how often you actually take control over a banana in comparison to Diddy yet alone actually perform those combos. Just got back from work so I'm too tired to right a full out analysis right now, but I say it's 55:45 leaning more towards 60:40, but with Sheik/Zelda I'd like to think of it as set in stone as 55:45.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
I know, that was what I felt like contributing.
I probably need to edit it cuz "I think I covered most of it" was directed towards how you use Banana's.
Crossjeremiah
Smash Ace
savior you make it seem like that information was useful. but it wasn't you didn't talk about what you do to counter diddys attacks. what i do with the banana is i throw it down at the ground 1 or 2 time then pick it up and throw it at the diddy. the diddy would either slip either way. unless they catch the banana or jump which leads them to less options. which sets you up for needles into dacus or something like that. my opinon on this match up is that you have to be either defensive or super aggressive. you basically have to dodge bunch of bananas. you can sit up for gimps like run after them off the stage needle glide, then needle them off stage. or bair them from behind and stage spike what ever works best for you. ftilt to usmash is useful. just calculate the banana throw and try to catch it or space it. or dodge it. but thats what they want you to do. is dodge em . because you have less options. and try to bair you or such. and when diddy uses the dash attack into usmash. just be ready for that. shield that. and dont try to punish unless after the usmash you can nair probably.
Le_THieN
Smash Lord
Refer to my series of matches against Light in his video thread. I think they aptly demonstrate how easily the match-up can swing in either character's favor on-stage. Off-stage, it's a different story. Sheik's generally poor and linear recovery is one of the only potent reasons I would firmly list the advantage in Diddy's column.
And there's no way Sheik has nearly has many options as Diddy Kong does while armed with banana peels.
And there's no way Sheik has nearly has many options as Diddy Kong does while armed with banana peels.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Well sooooorrryyyy <,<
stealth3654
Smash Lord
Since no one is really talking about the Diddy match-up, we will move on to Pikachu.
Discuss!!!
Discuss!!!
Crossjeremiah
Smash Ace
avoid chain grab... xD
dtilt ftilt fsmash, most of his ground attacks out range ours by a lot.
Pika... I don't know about the match up all that much. I take damage to indefinitely avoid the chaing grab out side of that with pika's bad grab range and the fast that there is only one of him spacing ftilt and bair and even fair you can avoid his grabs. bair beats his air game I believe and you are faster than him on the ground, but you really have to watch your spacing at low percents with ground moves. pika doesn't seem to have many strong approaches against sheik dash attack jab grab and nair can answer just about everything pika can do to your sheild from the air.
Talking from experince playing with Gallax... I don't find the match up all that bad if you keep your distance and watch your approaches.
stealth3654
Smash Lord
If Pikachu grabs you, be prepared to eat a LOT of damage. I'm pretty sure Pika can chain grab you till over 100% and end it with an up smash. If you get in that position, try to DI the up smash the best you can and hope you survive.
Pikachu usually gets his grabs by punishing ending lag or by FF fair > grab. Watch out for thunder ledge guards. I'm pretty sure Sheik can tether through the thunder, but I am not sure.
Pikachu usually gets his grabs by punishing ending lag or by FF fair > grab. Watch out for thunder ledge guards. I'm pretty sure Sheik can tether through the thunder, but I am not sure.
Pika_Cam
Smash Ace
You can get out of the FF fair > grab by jabbing after the FF fair. Trust me, a Sheik embarassed me with that in a recent tournament T.T
Crossjeremiah
Smash Ace
lol i did that to anther in friendlies
sniperworm
Smash Ace
Like people have been saying, avoid grabs at low percents or you'll be in for a world of hurt. Pikas will probably Utilt after the chaingrab because it's less DIable (aka you're more vulnerable to Thunder) than Usmash. I'm pretty sure Pikachu can do Utilt to QA lock at 0% against Sheik, so don't fall for that either.
Pikachu's jab is very quick and has some decent disjointedness (and can cause tripping) so be aware of that. Pikachu's kills will generally come from Fsmash, Usmash, or Nair. Fsmash (sweetspotted, so close to Pikachu) is it's one reliable kill move so don't let it connect with that. Spaced Fsmash has noticably lower kill potential (pretty much to the point where it's not a kill move). Usmash and Nair are lesser kill moves but they're a lot easier to land. Always DI Uthrow, Utilt, Usmash, sourspotted Fsmash (it sends you straight up) and Dsmash (if you somehow don't SDI out of it) or you'll be killed by a Thunder at higher percents. T2 (when Pikachu gets hit by the thunder) kills at very low percents, but you shouldn't be getting hit by that because you're freaking Sheik...
Pikachu's jab is very quick and has some decent disjointedness (and can cause tripping) so be aware of that. Pikachu's kills will generally come from Fsmash, Usmash, or Nair. Fsmash (sweetspotted, so close to Pikachu) is it's one reliable kill move so don't let it connect with that. Spaced Fsmash has noticably lower kill potential (pretty much to the point where it's not a kill move). Usmash and Nair are lesser kill moves but they're a lot easier to land. Always DI Uthrow, Utilt, Usmash, sourspotted Fsmash (it sends you straight up) and Dsmash (if you somehow don't SDI out of it) or you'll be killed by a Thunder at higher percents. T2 (when Pikachu gets hit by the thunder) kills at very low percents, but you shouldn't be getting hit by that because you're freaking Sheik...
Doesn't this mean that we can shield grab and Nair OoS too?
stealth3654
Smash Lord
So.... about stages to CP and ban....
I'm thinking baning any stage that has walk off platforms like in castle siege because Pika can chain grab you to the blast zone. I don't really know what to CP.
Edit: Ok, since no one is discussing the Pika match-up, we will move on to Ice Climbers.
Discuss!
I'm thinking baning any stage that has walk off platforms like in castle siege because Pika can chain grab you to the blast zone. I don't really know what to CP.
Edit: Ok, since no one is discussing the Pika match-up, we will move on to Ice Climbers.
Discuss!