KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
down > slide stick to down + forward > jump (X) > L or R
-
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Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA
- Thread starter KirbyKaze
- Start date
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
I find that focusing on producing as small of a time interval as possible between "down" and "jump" (i.e. you want the "double jump rings" to be as close to the ledge as possible) gives me great results.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
My gimping isn't inconsistent it just ****ing sucks
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I have the best gimps ever.
m2k take notes
m2k take notes
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
If I could combo into upsmash every stock, I wouldn't mind not having a gimp game.
As it stands, princesses don't need gimps.
As it stands, princesses don't need gimps.
Agh I just can't get it right! >_< So pissed off right now..
I think i'll try to learn to do it by pressing away instead of down.. Gawd.
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
woops. >_> I mean SH fair LOL
typo
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
@ Kaffei - You have to do any of
1. Use a ground move when they are going to WD OOS to counter their action. I like f-tilt. This one works better if they're facing you because hitting the back of their shield with f-tilt = free bair OOS for them. This doesn't mean it doesn't work on backwards ICs - you just have to really make sure you're catching the WD.
2. Be closer when you fair and don't be so committed to it during the action. This is because by being closer you force their WD OOS against your SH fair to go by you; you can be pretty stationary this way. If you don't commit to the fair, you can catch these WDs by you with bairs and stuff if you're careful.
1. Use a ground move when they are going to WD OOS to counter their action. I like f-tilt. This one works better if they're facing you because hitting the back of their shield with f-tilt = free bair OOS for them. This doesn't mean it doesn't work on backwards ICs - you just have to really make sure you're catching the WD.
2. Be closer when you fair and don't be so committed to it during the action. This is because by being closer you force their WD OOS against your SH fair to go by you; you can be pretty stationary this way. If you don't commit to the fair, you can catch these WDs by you with bairs and stuff if you're careful.
soap
Smash Hero
Nair works really well for people trying to slip under you
You've got to respec and spend more skill points in gimping.
Or, alternatively, you could cheat for extra points and use them. D:
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Respec?
B-but KK's spec is the one I use for everything. Don't tell me Blizzard nerfed it again. D:
Smooth Criminal
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
An action replay seemed to work well for Armada, that guy's got high skill points across the board.
silentSWAG
Smash Lord
S l o X
Smash Champion
you dont need to jab him, you can just wait.
jabbing him enables but you kept doing it and gave him more options than he would have normally have.
i'll watch it only because i would have won. ****ing westballz to scar to mango. juggleguy gave me hope and then snatched it away.
jabbing him enables but you kept doing it and gave him more options than he would have normally have.
i'll watch it only because i would have won. ****ing westballz to scar to mango. juggleguy gave me hope and then snatched it away.
TaFoKiNtS
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 1,027
Remember
Falcon Up + B high
1. Ftilt--> fair if they are trying to go to the edge
2. Follow their air movement and fair/bair
Falcon Up + B low
1. Grab Ledge
There were a couple of times in which you grabbed ledge unnecessarily and allowed him to get on stage for free.
Also, stop giving him space when you have him pinned. There were several instances in which he was shielded/stopped moving in which you ran away, giving him stage position and horizontal movement momentum. When you play on FD, the match is primarily won by who controls the horizontal space. Whoever gets pinned to a corner will lose. By relenting space and getting cornered, you're relying on Scar messing up moreso than creating your own opportunities. It was fortunate that Scar got impatient and started raptor boosting repeatedly. However, you shouldn't rely on that.
Double jab is okay as a mixup, you realized too late that he could get out of it pretty consistently. The times you got a follow up tech chase don't outweigh your misses. Mix-in jab --> ftilts if he starts SDIing,
Lastly, you need to be actively picking up reads. the reason why he was able to clutch it out and get more hits at the end was because he was re-adapting to you, while you were still playing the matchup and not the player. It's important to pick up these hard reads so that you can close out the match. This is why the more seasoned players are typically better at closing out matches.
Other than that, you played well. Just clean up your edgeguards and get more experience, getting your nerves out of the way.
Falcon Up + B high
1. Ftilt--> fair if they are trying to go to the edge
2. Follow their air movement and fair/bair
Falcon Up + B low
1. Grab Ledge
There were a couple of times in which you grabbed ledge unnecessarily and allowed him to get on stage for free.
Also, stop giving him space when you have him pinned. There were several instances in which he was shielded/stopped moving in which you ran away, giving him stage position and horizontal movement momentum. When you play on FD, the match is primarily won by who controls the horizontal space. Whoever gets pinned to a corner will lose. By relenting space and getting cornered, you're relying on Scar messing up moreso than creating your own opportunities. It was fortunate that Scar got impatient and started raptor boosting repeatedly. However, you shouldn't rely on that.
Double jab is okay as a mixup, you realized too late that he could get out of it pretty consistently. The times you got a follow up tech chase don't outweigh your misses. Mix-in jab --> ftilts if he starts SDIing,
Lastly, you need to be actively picking up reads. the reason why he was able to clutch it out and get more hits at the end was because he was re-adapting to you, while you were still playing the matchup and not the player. It's important to pick up these hard reads so that you can close out the match. This is why the more seasoned players are typically better at closing out matches.
Other than that, you played well. Just clean up your edgeguards and get more experience, getting your nerves out of the way.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Why does nobody grab shields with this character asdf
Johnny I'm working on your matches with Scar atm
Johnny I'm working on your matches with Scar atm
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Johnny
1) Grab > shields - You're pressuring him to block but then never grab his shield. Use JC grabs or standing grabs vs Falcon because it's good for catching SHs (tall grab) and it's safer on whiff (might be able to shield dair / knee in time and everything else is DIable). It also ensures his sidestep puts him at frame disadvantage so you can follow or continue if he tries to jank his way out with it.
2) Grab more at low percent. And things that set up into grab. You always go for f-tilt > jab or dash grab but he can jump both of those at some point. Consider countering his jump with SH fair > grab or something. Your low percents game in general needs works.
3) Your tech chasing is meh. I feel you go for grabs when they're inappropriate (better follows with other moves). Double jab reset > grab is terrible. I'd prefer you u-tilt honestly or even f-tilt and no stun launch them just 'cuz a lot of people air dodge and the position is better IMHO but whatever. Work on getting your positioning for chasing his landing area with whatever your chasing with ASAP because I feel you wait until he touches the ground to act but you could be getting in position, which makes the hit window more lenient and it makes a huge difference (depending on how you move into it, you can cover multiple options very easily on reaction 'cuz you retain dash dance options, and so forth). Food for thought. I feel like 80%+ of Sheiks would benefit from this but maybe I'm just cynical.
4) When Falcon is trolling the platforms, making him run into bairs rather than u-tilts is a strong strategy because of bair's priority and reaching the platform (whereas u-tilt basically requires they run into it). I don't really advise going up vs him though; his mobility ***** you up there. SH bair = MVP.
5) Your edgeguarding needs serious work. It looks like you grab the edge inappropriately a lot and don't go out after him or needle at their DJ sweetspot when you hit him offstage. Running off with a nair or something can be very effective when he's close to the stage. Similarly, going balls deep with fair is really good. Same with bair. After hitting him offstage with a fair, get out there ASAP. Do not hesitate. You have tall jumps and a huge bair so edgeguarding is cake. If all else fails, combo his up+B lag.
6) Combo him harder and into death. Seriously that's like 50% of the MU right there. You hesitate too much with your uair platform tech chases. If you botch hitting the 20 frame window where he can't do anything, don't force it unless you're sure he's gonna just lie there. You can just stay under and SH and react to his option or do other lame crap like that. Also, more u-tilt. Don't get hit by get up attacks. Shield > u-smash or grab is good vs those. You can also jump over them and come down with dair if the percent is right (40%+).
7) Fair > crouch is really gay pressure because ducking shield grab is good and your spontaneous attacks **** his aerials OOS (the strat is ******** if he's cornered). Crouching and playing under platforms is tough for him in general if you take the defense route. I prefer attacking Falcon and controlling centerstage because it makes him dance around you and lets me force him into awkwardly small spaces to dash dance (and cornered Falcon is probably dead vs this witch unless they do something really clever like a smartypants), but a hyper defense style definitely works (see: M2K, Tec0 vs Scar [old sets], etc). I dislike it because it depends more on countering his actions but by being under the plat you take away his FJ game to a degree so you're funneling some important options away just by positioning there. Sheik too strong.
1) Grab > shields - You're pressuring him to block but then never grab his shield. Use JC grabs or standing grabs vs Falcon because it's good for catching SHs (tall grab) and it's safer on whiff (might be able to shield dair / knee in time and everything else is DIable). It also ensures his sidestep puts him at frame disadvantage so you can follow or continue if he tries to jank his way out with it.
2) Grab more at low percent. And things that set up into grab. You always go for f-tilt > jab or dash grab but he can jump both of those at some point. Consider countering his jump with SH fair > grab or something. Your low percents game in general needs works.
3) Your tech chasing is meh. I feel you go for grabs when they're inappropriate (better follows with other moves). Double jab reset > grab is terrible. I'd prefer you u-tilt honestly or even f-tilt and no stun launch them just 'cuz a lot of people air dodge and the position is better IMHO but whatever. Work on getting your positioning for chasing his landing area with whatever your chasing with ASAP because I feel you wait until he touches the ground to act but you could be getting in position, which makes the hit window more lenient and it makes a huge difference (depending on how you move into it, you can cover multiple options very easily on reaction 'cuz you retain dash dance options, and so forth). Food for thought. I feel like 80%+ of Sheiks would benefit from this but maybe I'm just cynical.
4) When Falcon is trolling the platforms, making him run into bairs rather than u-tilts is a strong strategy because of bair's priority and reaching the platform (whereas u-tilt basically requires they run into it). I don't really advise going up vs him though; his mobility ***** you up there. SH bair = MVP.
5) Your edgeguarding needs serious work. It looks like you grab the edge inappropriately a lot and don't go out after him or needle at their DJ sweetspot when you hit him offstage. Running off with a nair or something can be very effective when he's close to the stage. Similarly, going balls deep with fair is really good. Same with bair. After hitting him offstage with a fair, get out there ASAP. Do not hesitate. You have tall jumps and a huge bair so edgeguarding is cake. If all else fails, combo his up+B lag.
6) Combo him harder and into death. Seriously that's like 50% of the MU right there. You hesitate too much with your uair platform tech chases. If you botch hitting the 20 frame window where he can't do anything, don't force it unless you're sure he's gonna just lie there. You can just stay under and SH and react to his option or do other lame crap like that. Also, more u-tilt. Don't get hit by get up attacks. Shield > u-smash or grab is good vs those. You can also jump over them and come down with dair if the percent is right (40%+).
7) Fair > crouch is really gay pressure because ducking shield grab is good and your spontaneous attacks **** his aerials OOS (the strat is ******** if he's cornered). Crouching and playing under platforms is tough for him in general if you take the defense route. I prefer attacking Falcon and controlling centerstage because it makes him dance around you and lets me force him into awkwardly small spaces to dash dance (and cornered Falcon is probably dead vs this witch unless they do something really clever like a smartypants), but a hyper defense style definitely works (see: M2K, Tec0 vs Scar [old sets], etc). I dislike it because it depends more on countering his actions but by being under the plat you take away his FJ game to a degree so you're funneling some important options away just by positioning there. Sheik too strong.
leffen
Smash Champion
Sheiks grab is what makes 90% of her moveset useful
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
That's why I get mad when people make her grab suck and then claim they balanced her. No, she sucks.
Since space animals' side b puts their hurtbox infront of their hitbox, can a weak bair from Sheik's vaginal region hit them out of it...?
I'm trying to start learning when spacies can get hit, how I can hit them, and where I can hit them, and what I can hit them with.
I'm trying to start learning when spacies can get hit, how I can hit them, and where I can hit them, and what I can hit them with.
Van.
Smash Ace
i'm fairly sure i've seen vaginal region edgeguards on both spacies
silentSWAG
Smash Lord
thanks for the advice bros
Sheik dittos:
I've read to not jump unless I really have to, as crouch cancelling and grabs tends to be the key in finding a gap to start the combos.
I've also read that Sheik dittos are all about SH fair.
Am I just imagining things, or is there a huge contradiction here..
Discuss!
I've read to not jump unless I really have to, as crouch cancelling and grabs tends to be the key in finding a gap to start the combos.
I've also read that Sheik dittos are all about SH fair.
Am I just imagining things, or is there a huge contradiction here..
Discuss!
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
SH fair in dittos? Man, it's like all I do.
Basically, SH fair is so ridiculous that it can actually beat her main anti-air off the ground (f-tilt) by sheer hitbox advantage (so some spacing and timing required, but no big). It's hard to dash punish because of its amazing AC and Sheik's high quality options after it. It is also additionally ridiculously resilient against crouch punishes (which can be super important to baiting bad crouch attacks and getting the grab) and it applies way more pressure to a shield than basically her entire ground suite. So... it's just a really good option. It happens to be so good that you can probably make a style around it.
The counters to SH fair can be beaten using her other jump options for the most part (d-tilt, for instance, can be used to sneak under the fair hitbox [see: me vs M2K ROM3] but then if jumping Sheik does aerial needles instead she gets a free grab and free grabs are delicious). This makes the style fairly cohesive overall, even if you're ultimately sacrificing defensive options and such.
Ground style is effective because Sheik's f-tilt is insane and staying grounded keeps your defensive option suite nice and full. Shield, dash away, jump back, crouch, etc. are all readily available. Also, I get that fair sounds great but has some drawbacks - one of the big ones is that it's only semi-reliable as a combo starter when you hit a clean opening with it whereas if you get your tilt or whatever on an airborne opponent it's way more likely to lead to something. Staying grounded also keeps access to grab.
You're going to wind up using both if you want to be good at the ditto because there are counters and such for each of them. The old adage of, "Sheik can't jump in Sheik dittos" is just an outdated piece of misinformation that nobody good has bothered to directly refute. So, this is me doing it. That said, ground is still very strong in the MU (it's Sheik's ground game ffs).
Basically, SH fair is so ridiculous that it can actually beat her main anti-air off the ground (f-tilt) by sheer hitbox advantage (so some spacing and timing required, but no big). It's hard to dash punish because of its amazing AC and Sheik's high quality options after it. It is also additionally ridiculously resilient against crouch punishes (which can be super important to baiting bad crouch attacks and getting the grab) and it applies way more pressure to a shield than basically her entire ground suite. So... it's just a really good option. It happens to be so good that you can probably make a style around it.
The counters to SH fair can be beaten using her other jump options for the most part (d-tilt, for instance, can be used to sneak under the fair hitbox [see: me vs M2K ROM3] but then if jumping Sheik does aerial needles instead she gets a free grab and free grabs are delicious). This makes the style fairly cohesive overall, even if you're ultimately sacrificing defensive options and such.
Ground style is effective because Sheik's f-tilt is insane and staying grounded keeps your defensive option suite nice and full. Shield, dash away, jump back, crouch, etc. are all readily available. Also, I get that fair sounds great but has some drawbacks - one of the big ones is that it's only semi-reliable as a combo starter when you hit a clean opening with it whereas if you get your tilt or whatever on an airborne opponent it's way more likely to lead to something. Staying grounded also keeps access to grab.
You're going to wind up using both if you want to be good at the ditto because there are counters and such for each of them. The old adage of, "Sheik can't jump in Sheik dittos" is just an outdated piece of misinformation that nobody good has bothered to directly refute. So, this is me doing it. That said, ground is still very strong in the MU (it's Sheik's ground game ffs).
joejoe22802
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2005
- Messages
- 873
This game is all about contradictions.... You just have to decide based on what is given to you. As in a situation where A beats B sometimes but B beats A sometimes. Just gotta figure out what a person is actually gonna do.
It's whack to argue about such contradictions.
Also after extended conversation with Teczero and SilentSwag I am not the bestest.
It's whack to argue about such contradictions.
Also after extended conversation with Teczero and SilentSwag I am not the bestest.
soap
Smash Hero
short hop backwards is very good defensively, because the other sheik does not have a falcon nair she can sling across the stage. The only thing sheik can throw across the stage that will reach you is boost grabs and dash attacks, and short hop evades these very neatly.
offensive short hops for pressure are used similar to how you normally use them, when you know they are staying in place and doing grounded moves
Auto Cancel fairs can still be dash dance grabbed so no mindless shffl's please
offensive short hops for pressure are used similar to how you normally use them, when you know they are staying in place and doing grounded moves
Auto Cancel fairs can still be dash dance grabbed so no mindless shffl's please
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
AC fairs are hard to dash dance grab but yeah it's doable.
That said, a lot of times people aren't actually dash dance grabbing your fair lag but rather the Sheik that faired didn't action after landing quickly (with whatever you do).
Also, sometimes people fail the DD grab because the opposing Sheik crouches and they go for JC grab. Sheik's crouch has some funny behaviours with her standing grab animation so keep that in mind when deciding how you're going to go about grabbing her for whatever.
That said, a lot of times people aren't actually dash dance grabbing your fair lag but rather the Sheik that faired didn't action after landing quickly (with whatever you do).
Also, sometimes people fail the DD grab because the opposing Sheik crouches and they go for JC grab. Sheik's crouch has some funny behaviours with her standing grab animation so keep that in mind when deciding how you're going to go about grabbing her for whatever.
SonuvaBeach
Smash Lord
Likely a dumb question, but what are some good examples of when you guys use AC fair?
I just play and fair when I feel appropriate, but I am rarely aware of actually doing AC fairs, leading me to believe I don't really use them.
I know of the full hop fair then fast fall one, is that the only one you guys are referring to? Do you find yourself using it that often?
Please enlighten me.
I just play and fair when I feel appropriate, but I am rarely aware of actually doing AC fairs, leading me to believe I don't really use them.
I know of the full hop fair then fast fall one, is that the only one you guys are referring to? Do you find yourself using it that often?
Please enlighten me.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Watch any Amsah match
What should I be doing against Peach? I play against a Peach main constantly and its the only character of his I don't do very well against. In fact, it's usually a stomp in his favor, so I was wondering what to do against them. Specifically, I think I falter most with approaching and recovery. Her D-smash is just way too insane.
You should really not be getting hit by that many Dsmashes at all, and when you do you should bounce back fairly easily. Baiting Dsmashes with advantageous aerials on shield is an easy WD OOS to grab. Most med-level peaches will do multiple Dsmashes in a row if you're near, and if your timing is decently good I like to try and compete with theirs with our own dsmash. Lol. I also really enjoy pivoting bairs as an approach because you can read a reaction, space a DD and punish a lot of the time.
If she's far away make sure to stock a full needle pouch. It's really underrated in my opinion and a lot of times you can surprise offstage Peaches and gimp their recovery fairly easy as you wait for them to go for the ledge as you kind of take control of the stage forcing her to the ledge. SH fair her from the edge and immediately throw needles straight to limit her options and a lot of the time you can catch her float and put yourself in a good place.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udS2yQoLlzk#t=2m20s
That's an okay example. If it only works once, then it only works once. But it got a stock.
Hope this helps a little.
If she's far away make sure to stock a full needle pouch. It's really underrated in my opinion and a lot of times you can surprise offstage Peaches and gimp their recovery fairly easy as you wait for them to go for the ledge as you kind of take control of the stage forcing her to the ledge. SH fair her from the edge and immediately throw needles straight to limit her options and a lot of the time you can catch her float and put yourself in a good place.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udS2yQoLlzk#t=2m20s
That's an okay example. If it only works once, then it only works once. But it got a stock.
Hope this helps a little.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Hey Redd, don't forget that you can combo dthrow to usmash on Marth for the kill as long as he doesn't DI away.
I'm still new so I'm still working on getting my short hops right each time so I figure that's one of my biggest downsides right now playing against Peach. I figure I will just continue working on my short hop aerials since it seems like it's a really important approach tactic for her. I probably need to work on my game OoS too, I pretty much only grab since I don't know much else.
I just might have another piece of misinformation..
I thought that I'm not supposed to tilt when Luigi's grounded. And that tilts are actually not that good vs Luigi.
But just now i watched THIS: KK Vs. Vudujin
Is it the ftilt ****** **** vs Luigi or does it work just because Vudujin is so bad compared to you / you telegraph him so hard.
I thought that I'm not supposed to tilt when Luigi's grounded. And that tilts are actually not that good vs Luigi.
But just now i watched THIS: KK Vs. Vudujin
Is it the ftilt ****** **** vs Luigi or does it work just because Vudujin is so bad compared to you / you telegraph him so hard.