Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[gm jack]

Really character depended. For example, vs Marth, I like to face towards and space with dash forward and wd back, with other wd and dd tricks thrown in. Generally like to face towards them though unless it's someone like Puff where I may genuinely need to have bair available more readily than anything else.

 

[The Great Gonzales]

it really depends on the macth-up wich way your facing most of the time and what your doing vs. what you see them do, and react appropriately

 

[soap]

I only spam dash dances to get a rhythm going sometimes, but it really should only be used in small increments for a specific purpose.

facing back for bair walls, facing forward most of the time. Allows you to pressure with needle store tricks, as well as ftilt/fair.

 

[silentSWAG]

Troting is good with sheik

 

[Sweet™]

How do trot.

 

[leffen]

for the pal sheik debate:

low %, walk. Dash+jc grab if normal tech, continue walking to jab if not
higher % wavedash ->whatever

If you wanna do it hardcore you should be dashing->pivot jabbing (if they no tech)

 

[Nedved]

Hey, just asking for some information about Fox match up. (PAL Sheik)

I think i'm doing it wrong (exemple : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf9dDflZGqM )

Most of the time, i just throw move to get something and get a combo, and dsmash in panic a lot of time. (gonna fix that). I end up being drill->shine->USmash or just grab->uair.
I also edgeguarded poorly (especially game 1) but it's now better.
Game 2 i decided to camp him as hard as possible (it worked) and tried to do it game 3 but failed.

But in the end I think i lack something in this MU, but i can't pinpoint it. defensively i'm not that good (bad OoS game?) so if someone had an idea or some good matches it would be awesome.

Thanks guys !

 

[joejoe22802]

Hey man pretty cool sheik. I think you don't really create enough options for yourself. It seems like fox is running the tempo of the match you're just stonewalling. Like whatever he messes up yeah you might catch and if he mixes it up and chooses wrong then yea you get the hit and then combo. But I feel like you come off a little scared.

You just throw out attacks not to get hit which is really obvious in the case of your aerial spot dodge dsmashes or random dsmashes. You often aerial and then jump and aerial again and probably aerial into jab slap stuff. You rarely slap wait. or Slap crouch slap grab or slap badly spaced into uptilt. I feel like these type of choices are countered by different OoS by Fox. If you just do what you were doing which is basically attack attack in a consistent rhythm then all fox has to do is shield and attack you at the end of the last attack.

You try to make opportunities by jumping back and wd back but your spacing is wide. At this distance it doesn't do anything. movement isn't scary unless you have the possibility of actually hitting them. So run up them and Then wd back or jump back from closer ranges. You can really fish for stuff this way. Its pretty safe. You don't always have to be attacking. Especially not with super punishable stuff like dash attack and downsmash. Life in Street Fighter would you just approach with specials? no you zone and play footsies with normals.

Also when you space aerials a lot of times you just jump straight up nd come down at about two character spaces away. Do you expect fox to jump into that? If you jump you're probably coming down with an aerial i can just wait and punish. In this specific case you don't introduce empty hop into your vocabulary so the fox can basically be sure of this read.
If you wanna space aerials, you gotta slow it down enough to not commit if they don't take the bait. Just wd back or double jump away or land. So when you do aerials either space in a way that will make them want to whiff or actually hit there shield so you have stun for some sort of safety.

Also your out of shield isn't too bad.. but mainly its not brought to light because this fox is pretty in and out without a lot of shield pressure. But I can see you making conscious decisions when attacking. Try to do the same in shield. Wait and choose something. Whats the worse that could happen? You get grabbed? So wait, at least in your calm you registered what worked and what didn't. From there you can start the process of adapting. If you just spot dodge dsmash or flinch, you were mindless at this moment. In fact you're probably happy its all over and now you're tech chasing. Well thats turning a blind eye to a beautiful part of the game.

Anyways that was quite a rant. Hope it helps.

 

[Nedved]

Okay, I see what's your point. I'm gonna work hard, i'm not focused enough when i play imo.

Question about a mixup :
I took a pretty bad habit, when i jab a sheild, i go for a second jab then DSmash. I try to push them far enough with the Dsmash so i don't get punish (or force them to grab the ledge if it's possible).
I played a Link player a lot, and he waited for me to Dsmash his shield then grab.

The question is, what mixup should I choose when I jab/tilt a sheild ? I'll try WD back to wait his move, but there might be a better option...

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'm pretty sure you can grab in that situation. Like jab > grab. I don't know how safe double jab is with Sheik, but it seems really vulnerable to drop shield > CC > punish, or shield grabbing.

 

[Nedved]

Since jab range > grab range, i might dash grab (or JC Grab or Boost grab, whatever). But i'm afraid of timing issues, if it's even possible.

 

[Jolteon]

Okay, I see what's your point. I'm gonna work hard, i'm not focused enough when i play imo.

Question about a mixup :
I took a pretty bad habit, when i jab a sheild, i go for a second jab then DSmash. I try to push them far enough with the Dsmash so i don't get punish (or force them to grab the ledge if it's possible).
I played a Link player a lot, and he waited for me to Dsmash his shield then grab.

The question is, what mixup should I choose when I jab/tilt a sheild ? I'll try WD back to wait his move, but there might be a better option...

Dsmash is punishable on block, so are jabs in fact since you can just drop shield -> cc grab them or just grab after the jab happens. This is not to say that both moves should never be used on shield, it's just not a good idea to make a habit of using them a lot vs any character (not just vs Link).

If the Link player is waiting for you to attack him before dropping his shield then the simplest thing to do would be to grab it, basic options like fair -> grab or empty hop -> grab will work well.

 

[MegaRobMan]

I figured you guys might get a kick out of this

Rule set:
Rob's sheik is banned

I'm only #5 in Nebraska, lol. I wanted to get Falco banned, but too many people main him to do it. The money was on Fox since everyone secondaries him so it would be an even loss.

Also, relevant.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=323699

Strongbad is the only one that reads this that would come lol but it's a decent bit of work

Edit: I still struggle with wavedashing. I can shffl/sh/shnaiross moving back/forwards/shneedlepivotbair. Waveland, basically everything but that and I am working on JC-grabs and stuff. Most people would say my spacing and decision making are the best part of my sheik. (also when I fat finger a down-b I usually land the bair and get them off me enough to change back, lol.)

The thing is, most characters wavedash it seems like people just spam it and it's godly, sheik can't really do that unless it's out of a dash dance. I just need to practice, but I can't do it vs anyone bad really because there aren't people that play this game that are bad anymore in Nebraska, it's like 6-13 dudes who have been playing for years.

I'm an 01 sheik main, retired in 05ish, revived in 09 when I discovered people actually play this game and not brawl.

It's hard to teach an old break dancing sexy ninja new tricks.

Still like brawl though <3.

 

[silentSWAG]

where the hell is kirby kaze, he made this thread

i miss his insight

 

[unknown522]

Yeah kirbykaze. We need you

 

[john!]

he's the poster gotham the sheik boards deserve, but not the one they need...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

U mean hero, john

 

[KirbyKaze]

Okay, first things first. Teczero made this thread. But when he went inactive then I took it over (and requested to take it over). Facts straight plz.

Second, I'm just not interested in the recent discussion. All the recent discussion has been on PAL Sheik, questions on how to wavedash, and asking how to tech chase (which is a combination of learning & training timings [which can be done in a variety of ways], proper movement, and playing against FFers to drill those principles into your brain & fingers). Oh, and a video critique request, but that's also been for PAL Sheik so I can't help him.

When someone commented on the Puff MU and the merits of offense in it, I piped in my 2 cents on how Puff is one of the characters most vulnerable to Sheik's needle zoning if you can keep her controlled at the edge (because despite her aerial mobility, going around that huge needle range requires some very slow, obvious movement by her and she falls slowly so she opens herself to bairs, which is one of the numerous kinds of openings that proper needle zoning creates [and part of why it ***** so unbelievably hard in some MUs]). Run-stop offense combined with strong positioning and stage presence - Sheik's kind of good!

But there haven't been questions or discussions like that here. It's been really trivial things that you guys really don't need me for.



edit:

I haven't abandoned you guys. There's just seriously nothing of interest to me in this thread lately so I just skim, take a look at what people are saying, realize I'm not needed, and then leave. I have ledgedashes and needle hogs to practice lol.

 

[soap]

I have been trying to learn how to dsmash everything coming from the air. It's been working.

Short hop platform dsmashes on Pokemon Stadium haha.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I just bair those.

 

[soap]

Stop spacing me dog

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm sure there's a juke or bait in landing on the platforms like that though. I remember Ministry talking to me about stuff he does like that (and how he exits the platforms to fish for certain openings). I might have to bother him to ask about it.

 

[joejoe22802]

GodDamnSheikBoards

 

[The Great Gonzales]

well KK something to interest you would be the IC macth-up, ive been struggling over here againts a solid IC player. Whats your input on the macth-up? I mainly try to space fairs to avoid getting grabbed but that only really gets me so far

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm notoriously bad vs ICs but I have some ideas.

The below is basically how I manage the ICs MU right now. I'm not sure whether it's right or not. Open to suggestions.

When I play against characters I don't get much experience against, I think about what position they're weakest in and how I could possibly go about creating a style that sets up that position. I also think about what I want to avoid in the MU and what that requires I do. Then I marry the two strains of thought and see what I can come up with. Beginning with the former, I know from basic analysis and talking to Fly Amanita that ICs are weakest at the edge, in the air, and on platforms. Since they are going to effectively glue themselves to the floor whenever possible, the MU is mostly played as a pushing and retreating game. Periodically Sheik will be forced up to platforms to regain footing (because Sheik will sometimes be pushed back because she really has no business challenging certain things like the blizzard wall).

What I want to avoid in the MU is basically being hit by anything that could possibly lead to grab. For this reason, I think low aerial (SHFF Fair AC being the big one) is the foundation of everything you want to internalize in the MU. It's safe, effective, and (when done correctly) unpunishable by grab. Sheik is squishy in this MU so you don't want to get hit. In order for them to counter the spaced fairs, I think they're probably going to be fishing for shield grabs (which shouldn't work, but it will work if you're not doing them correctly and ICs generally like to toss out poor shield grabs [even at high level]), crouch punishes (including grab and d-smash), and WD through you. The first two are countered mostly just by having decent timing and spacing on your aerial (jump immediately after your fair, or run away).

Beating WD through you requires a bit more finesse. If you've jumped, you are technically safe because the WD requires them to wait a period before they can action. Assuming you spot the WD, you can simply DJ > waveland off some platform and retreat or even possibly clip them as they pass with a bair or such. You can also predict the WD through and f-tilt. Fair > f-tilt is fairly reasonable pressure so long as they're over a certain percent and your f-tilt is spaced very, very well (tippy toes). ICs are weak at the edge because only one of them can grab it. If you can pressure them offstage, that's gravy.

When you launch ICs, make it a pain for them to come down. ICs have pretty meh priority coming down (dair sucks, fair is slow and hits in obvious places, bair is small, etc). Beating their moves when they are coming down is easy enough (trades are in your favour on almost everything). You should be wary of side-B; it jerks them horizontally when they do it (whether it's single or dual) so it's a pretty decent way of juking Sheik if she's too complacent. Although in all honesty the fact that they can't edgecancel it means they have to use the move's whole duration... which allows you to shark their landing with a whole bunch of nonsense.

Popo is pretty easy to tip up smashes on if he's recovering high with side-B for whatever reason. If it seems hard, just use a lot of bair & fair. Kill Nana whenever possible and abuse her AI to get efficient kills whenever possible (rather than d-throw fair, for instance, d-throw tipped up smash at a KO percent [requires you to keep a vague idea on how much damage she has]). Don't be afraid to jump off to kill Nana and recover onto platforms at low percents.

Nana's hitbox on Up+B stays out a lot longer than you think it does and she's probably invincible for most of the time in the air. So don't hit her when she's airborne. Just let her land and then kill her, or shark her husband instead.






Less solid ideas here and some questions of my own:

I find a lot of them have bad crouch habits and they like to swing with down smash. When you SH in for an additional aerial after you fair them (requires a hit-confirm but whatever) if you see they are d-smashing (and missing), it can be worthwhile to go for things that are not additional fair after certain percent ranges. I think dair might actually have some viability here after like 40% or so as a launcher to pop them up for a combo (that may very well kill them, and I'd really like to kill them more efficiently than I currently am).

Needles as a means to rack damage on them (full set of needles) on their next stock seems like it opens up a lot of options really quickly. I find as soon as you can start fishing for safe things to get them in the air then the MU is a lot less boring and much more manageable because it doesn't feel like you're fighting a wall that death combos you with pure poking.

Can you down smash them at the edge and hit them with the extra hits when you push them off? I'd be interested to know that.

 

[The Great Gonzales]

good advice, i alredy knew about trying to avoid gettign grabeed but wavelanding on a platform to avoid the wavedash behind you is interesting. As for grabs i try to smash DI nana's tilt to try to get out of their chain-trow at higher levels, not sure if anybody else has tried that

 

[silentSWAG]

im not trying to make you feel like your not helping the community or anything, the thread was just... really boring

good **** siad about the puff talk , idk who brought up the questions about puff and why, but i sure dont know much about that match up, throwing needles like dart practice sounds fun tho, around where i play there is only good ground-camped puff, which gets ***** by my sh ff fair that amsah demonstrates alot, i dont think this stratergy would work at higher level tourney play tho, but i seems to piss off my friends who want to counter with puff, so why not.
i think sheik is really good at beating approaches in the air with ..... wd back tilt/ sh ff fair, bairs, nairs
but sh on pokemons platform to dsmash sounds silly ( did i read that right, i think thats what soap meant)
i didnt read all the stuff on ic's yet, im just too damn tiered

oh yeah, kirby kaze, i cant make it to impulse its just such a ****ing drag to cross the border, geting a pass port, exchanging currency ect... but i hope it turns out great

Spoiler

you better get 1st place

oh and make sure to get really high with jacob. the car that is coming from pittsburgh has the lake, naka, jacob... duh, and maby 2 more people , i think our friend green ranger is comming, hes a bad *** donkey kong main

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Exchanging currency? In Canada?

Wat.

The bank pretty much does that for you if you pay for everything via debit card. I think major credit card companies do it, too. There's a surcharge that rounds up the American dollar to be equivalent to the Canadian dollar (usually a few cents to about a dollar differential).

Smooth Criminal

 

[silentSWAG]

Im fifthteen and dont have a credit card
Lol...

Swag criminal

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Well, damn.

I forgot. Ignore me. Lol

Smooth Criminal

 

[The Great Gonzales]

i dont know why everyone hates puff so much, all you have to do is play like a douche bag and run away and shoot needles and you win. You just cant play too agressive and run into too many puff bairs of doom

 

[silentSWAG]

i dont know why everyone hates puff so much, all you have to do is play like a douche bag and run away and shoot needles and you win. You just cant play too agressive and run into too many puff bairs of doom

Easier siad than done bro

Camping like a douche bag againist puff will leave u mad. cuz puff can camp you back like a mother ****er

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think vs non-HBox Puffs, pushing them to the edge and boxing them in forever with needle zoning is a pretty good base strategy. It leads to good option trees, and counters their SH & crouch game really, really hard if you know the whole procedure (it's complicated, don't wanna explain the whole thing here - ask me on AIM if you want me to walk you through it [and then I guess you could post the convo? I dunno whatever floats your boat]).

HBox uses the fact that needles can't shoot up to beat this. But this sacrifices a lot of his ability to fight too. It's a stalemate tactic (and a pretty good one) that gives him a large breadth of movement and ability to pretend he's going in but then decide not to. It's good. I'm still working on a counter haha.

FJ aerials are beatable by crouch & bair primarily. Needles at their landing zone (or getting on platforms to take a different defensive stance) are also effective answer. She can't really punish WD OOS away with FJ bair either, which is nice.

Sheik has a lot of options. Hooray.




Johnny, I'm really sad you're not coming. I was really looking forward to seeing you. I guess I have to come to HOPE5 or whatever then.



Gonzales, SDIing the tilt does nothing because you're still in the throw animation when the d-tilt hits (and then it spits you out like a normal throw). Lame, but so are ICs.

 

[silentSWAG]

i think i understand the hole spacing them to the edge thing, and when i think about it needles would ****

i am a defensive "wd back sheik" as the hatters say, and when i played hbox at zenith he did the same strategy of pushing my defense to the ledge until i couldn't wd back anymore, i had to roll or full hop over him or something, he punished it tho
.... it makes sense that i would definitely need to .... um... sort of be at a different spacing, like on a platform throwing needles down at him ( thats if he dose something where he would be hit by them) or something.
although i dont play the match up much with good puffs tho, maby ill pick up puff to learn her

edit: ive been thinking about instead of wd back when hbox/good puff would throw a hit box at me i could wd forward and get a tilt or d smash, thats if i react right. becuse when a puff ussually throws a arieral they di back to there side of the camping zone, so if they were to sh bair and di away, once the hit box hit me i could wd right there

 

[Sweet™]

My Sheik sucks against IC's.

I just switch to Zelda and spam fair and bair.
Seems to work. :l

 

[KirbyKaze]

TBH Johnny I think your devotion to such a specific style of defense limits you. You're good at it, certainly. But I think you need to expand your repertoire.

 

[unknown522]

Yes. Me too

 

[Kaffei]

I think vs non-HBox Puffs, pushing them to the edge and boxing them in forever with needle zoning is a pretty good base strategy. It leads to good option trees, and counters their SH & crouch game really, really hard if you know the whole procedure (it's complicated, don't wanna explain the whole thing here - ask me on AIM if you want me to walk you through it [and then I guess you could post the convo? I dunno whatever floats your boat]).

HBox uses the fact that needles can't shoot up to beat this. But this sacrifices a lot of his ability to fight too. It's a stalemate tactic (and a pretty good one) that gives him a large breadth of movement and ability to pretend he's going in but then decide not to. It's good. I'm still working on a counter haha.

FJ aerials are beatable by crouch & bair primarily. Needles at their landing zone (or getting on platforms to take a different defensive stance) are also effective answer. She can't really punish WD OOS away with FJ bair either, which is nice.

Sheik has a lot of options. Hooray.




Johnny, I'm really sad you're not coming. I was really looking forward to seeing you. I guess I have to come to HOPE5 or whatever then.



Gonzales, SDIing the tilt does nothing because you're still in the throw animation when the d-tilt hits (and then it spits you out like a normal throw). Lame, but so are ICs.

KK, do you think Peach is better vs Falco or Sheik?

 

[silentSWAG]

Okay. I think i have good offense. I mained fox around the time of pound five and i tried to be agro as hell. Shout outs to weonx. But i decided to stck with sheik since she is the one i first mained. And played gay..
around the time of rom 4 i noticed how good being gay is. Around that time i.started to think that i was good....
At apex 2012 i played really bad. And i think it was because i set myself up to win. Wherre people started to expect me to win. Thats when u feel pressure. U get nervous amd think too much about whats happening. And whats about to happen ect... i think its better to expect to lose. Then u wont be looking at ur competition. Competition will be looking at you

Ur right kirbykaze and i think ive been working on it
This was a rant and im bored. So why not

 

[Wake]

Peach is better against Falco.