Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[GooeyBanana]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5YoZV3NG3o

Okay so I just want to make sure, around 4:20 Amsah was boost grab tech chasing, right? Seemed a little too far of a reach for it to be a normal grab ;3

Trying to convert from Falcon maining(if that's possible =P) to Sheik maining. So far so good, at least I'm not always the one *****ing when I'm killed anymore =D But godddddd those spacies are brutal, and for some reason I fear Falcon and Ganon xD I'm REALLY afraid of Ice Climbers, mainly because I don't have any to play ;_;

While I'm at it, what should I be doing against Luigi? I swear, my friend doesn't even main that sucka and I swear I get hit by wavedash Dsmash so often because he does it so fast and unexpectedly >_<!!! My guess would be grab, grab, grab, grab, eventually fair somewhere in there with some needle camping if possible. Anything else?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ganon: Get inside him and hit him. Refrain from being laggy. Don't D-tilt or get into a CC war.

Falcon: Keep him out. F-tilt when he aerials. Stare him down if he does nothing. Sometimes you can Bair or Fair or Nair. Sometimes you can even grab. Refrain from being laggy.

Fox: Jump back Fair. WD back F-tilt. Jump away Bair. DD grab. WD back D-tilt. Space very carefully.

Falco: Nair over him. Fair over him. Bair over or under him. DD grab. Dash PS --> grab. Tech chase for at least 40 at low percent with grabs or you lose.

Luigi: Camp on platforms until he attacks you, at which point you outprioritize him and **** him. His fancy wavedash means crap when you're on a platform. Alternatively react to the big telegraphed "WHAA" sound. Needle a lot. Grab to moves. Space aerials.

Ice Climbers: Everything against Luigi except never grab the pair of them.

 

[Nihonjin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5YoZV3NG3o

Okay so I just want to make sure, around 4:20 Amsah was boost grab tech chasing, right? Seemed a little too far of a reach for it to be a normal grab ;3

Correct..:embarrass

Spoiler

I was playing horrible those matches..=[

 

[DJRome]

what is the frame data for boost grabbing? like if there's a x frame window for when you can grab after the dash attack starts, how much more effective is the first possible frame than the last? i feel like mine are being done too early and don't really help much :/

 

[Teczer0]

what is the frame data for boost grabbing? like if there's a x frame window for when you can grab after the dash attack starts, how much more effective is the first possible frame than the last? i feel like mine are being done too early and don't really help much :/

To me it sounds like you're wondering about the timing. Tell me if I'm wrong lawl.

But its sorta similar to the JC grab timing. But the later you hit the grab (During the time interval you're allowed) the further you go.

Its sorta like a delayed JC grab. If you do it too early the effects aren't nearly as apparent.

 

[DJRome]

yeah, i haven't really messed with this on my own yet. when i think i get it right it works out quite well, but sometimes, i feel like it would just be better to jc. but it does help my tech chasing out a lot when im doing it correctly

 

[SPAWN]

How do you do the usmash combo (where it hits twice)? Specifically I'm trying to do it with tech chasing. More specifically jab reset tech chasing lol.

 

[GooeyBanana]

I would assume the dual hit from the usmash would be something like...jab reseting them, then run forward a short bit to be almost inside of them and JC the usmash. I get it a lot of times against Marths/Ganons when they DI behind me when I dthrow too.

Thanks for the advice btw guys =)

 

[darkatma]

am I the only sheik who doesn't know how boost grabbing works?
reading the last page it looks like some sort of
beginning animation of dash attack to grab or something

 

[pockyD]

that's pretty much exactly how it works

so now you know!

 

[Kira-]

Falcon: Keep him out. F-tilt when he aerials. Stare him down if he does nothing. Sometimes you can Bair or Fair or Nair. Sometimes you can even grab. Refrain from being laggy.

Fox: Jump back Fair. WD back F-tilt. Jump away Bair. DD grab. WD back D-tilt. Space very carefully.

Luigi: Camp on platforms until he attacks you, at which point you outprioritize him and **** him. His fancy wavedash means crap when you're on a platform. Alternatively react to the big telegraphed "WHAA" sound. Needle a lot. Grab to moves. Space aerials.

Ice Climbers: Everything against Luigi except never grab the pair of them.

these were great, so useful thank you

 

[gm jack]

am I the only sheik who doesn't know how boost grabbing works?
reading the last page it looks like some sort of
beginning animation of dash attack to grab or something

Probably because grab is A+L/R as well, and therefore a dash attack could be cancelled in the opening frames to allow for people marginally off using this method to grab. It just so happens Sheik moves a lot in those initial frames.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

am i the only person who cc their running smashes? perhaps there is some flaw in it (other than situation where cc is bad like against a peach or something) that i dont know about. it just seems easier for me to do. i do this claw thing half the time where i flip the cstick while hitting x with my index finger (thats also how i do jc grabs minus the cstick i do thumb on x index on z). the other half i use the controlstick to jump but that messes me up

 

[GooeyBanana]

Soooo....yesterday night Marth fsmashed my shield while my back was to him and I wavedashed OoS towards him to pivot grab. Don't remember if I killed him with that grab because I was vomit cancel'ing seeing as I usually spot dodge instead of wavedash in that situation, let alone getting the pivot grab =P Sheik is growing on me ;D

 

[pockyD]

why would you pivot grab instead of just turnaround/dash grab

 

[GooeyBanana]

I think the real question is, why wouldn't I ;D

 

[DJRome]

the usmash is my favorite move now. followed by reverse fair

 

[soap]

for all u boost grab fiends here is a cool way to practice it. or a way to observe and maximize your dash attack distance.

do a fox trot, let yourself stop moving for a split second, then u can still dash attack out of this animation. practice cancelling that with a boost grab.

this mechanic is pretty useful in of itself for tech chasing cuz u can maintain the ability to change direction but still lunge forward a good distance if needed

 

[Dorsey]

Ganon: Get inside him and hit him. Refrain from being laggy. Don't D-tilt or get into a CC war.

Luigi: Camp on platforms until he attacks you, at which point you outprioritize him and **** him. His fancy wavedash means crap when you're on a platform. Alternatively react to the big telegraphed "WHAA" sound. Needle a lot. Grab to moves. Space aerials.

Yep, getting inside on ganon is the way to go, BUT, using the dtilt is useful in doing so on occasion. Maybe I'm taking 'Don't D-tilt' out of context a little but that move does a number on ganon's grab, and getting grabbed is the last thing sheik wants to do vs. ganon. And yeah you don't want to get into a CC-ing habit. Against sheik, Ganon is looking for two things: 1) an opening(hit/multiple hits/tech chase) and 2) A grab. Putting constant, yet safe, aerial and tilt pressure is how to avoid number 1, and spacing accordingly is how to avoid #2. I'm putting a high emphasis on not getting grabbed being that the Ganon on sheik CG is not only guaranteed off reaction til high %'s, but easier to do than vice versa. Darts ****.

Additionally with sheik v. luigi I think some clarification is needed with out-prioritizing him. Luigi has a good aerial set with good hitboxes, and his floatiness makes it so he's harder to punish, even with bad DI. If you're unfamiliar with the luigi match-up that will happen a lot: Luigi DI's something bad and it baits you into attacking him, then by 1-2 frames he gets a nair or whatever aerial out in time. As KK said, you should react to him instead which gives you control and allows you to out-prioritize, opposed to unnecessarily getting gay'd by luigi. Camping platforms is good, keeping the appropriate distance and concentrating on his approach. Also, against luigi i'm always thinking in the back of my head: luigi is 3x closer to death on both the highest platform and on the ledge. Darts ftw.

thought i'd give my 2 cents since I play these 2 match-ups 24/7! good stuff kk.

 

[GooeyBanana]

Ok this is going to be difficult wording this question but I'll try my best =P Probably geared more towards Amsah and such...

When you go into matches, is there any specific manuevers of sorts to kind of "test the waters" against players to try and digest their playstyles? Like, retreating aerials or light shielding or whatever to tell if they're an aggressive playstyle. Also doing this to kind of see what kind of aerials they approach with most of the time and when they may switch that up with like a grab or something, or is this just an in general type of thing that any kind of main should be paying attention to just in general?

Really hope I worded this well enough, it's just I've kind of wondered this seeing as I've played some pretty diverse Falcos over the past few months and they all seem to approach differently which leads to pillar combos and death and yeah, it really just makes the matchup difficult because I can't seem to pick up on how they're getting into an uncomfortable spot for me.

One more question, what are some ways to slow down a really aggressive Marth? I can trade games with one of my friends because he's more of the smart/defensive Marth, but my other friend who doesn't even main Marth just plays him extremely aggressive and gets me in my shield constantly and punishes from there and I can't find a solid way of slowing down all of his approaches.

Thanks a lot with the help so far guys!!!

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

erm so again, what are the pros/cons of cc running smashes as opposed to jc them

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

cc is slower, jc is faster. thats it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yep, getting inside on ganon is the way to go, BUT, using the dtilt is useful in doing so on occasion. Maybe I'm taking 'Don't D-tilt' out of context a little but that move does a number on ganon's grab, and getting grabbed is the last thing sheik wants to do vs. ganon. And yeah you don't want to get into a CC-ing habit. Against sheik, Ganon is looking for two things: 1) an opening(hit/multiple hits/tech chase) and 2) A grab. Putting constant, yet safe, aerial and tilt pressure is how to avoid number 1, and spacing accordingly is how to avoid #2. I'm putting a high emphasis on not getting grabbed being that the Ganon on sheik CG is not only guaranteed off reaction til high %'s, but easier to do than vice versa. Darts ****.

Just ducking is safer than D-tilting because if he CCs your D-tilt and D-tilts back, you will be knocked over first or launched and comboed. Whereas if you just ducked you'd be safe.

Additionally with sheik v. luigi I think some clarification is needed with out-prioritizing him.

How so? Some of your moves are bigger than his. You have more aerial priority. Seems pretty straight-forward to me. Only catch is that you have to learn where the invisible hitboxes are and how long they extend, but even then most of his invisible hitboxes are obvious after a few games with him if you're paying him the appropriate attention.

Luigi has a good aerial set with good hitboxes, and his floatiness makes it so he's harder to punish, even with bad DI.

Uair > his aerial hitboxes

And his floatiness makes him easier to punish, I think, when he's forced to approach, because he hangs in the air for longer and while airborne he doesn't have as many defensive options to protect himself from your better hitboxes and range (attack, double jump, air-dodge versus attack, cc, wd back, shield, dodge, roll, etc).

If you're unfamiliar with the luigi match-up that will happen a lot: Luigi DI's something bad and it baits you into attacking him, then by 1-2 frames he gets a nair or whatever aerial out in time.

This habit is punishable by doing a combo starter --> shield. Or just doing Uairs.

As KK said, you should react to him instead which gives you control and allows you to out-prioritize, opposed to unnecessarily getting gay'd by luigi. Camping platforms is good, keeping the appropriate distance and concentrating on his approach. Also, against luigi i'm always thinking in the back of my head: luigi is 3x closer to death on both the highest platform and on the ledge. Darts ftw.

thought i'd give my 2 cents since I play these 2 match-ups 24/7! good stuff kk.

I too have played these matchups a lot. I suppose I just think differently than you?

 

[stelzig]

erm so again, what are the pros/cons of cc running smashes as opposed to jc them

You can actually JC other smash attacks than Usmash?
I'm guessing you can't since i've never seen anyone d/fsmash out of shield, but if yes then yeah i cc 2 of them...)

 

[DJRome]

lol, only jc usmash obvi.

the pro of jc usmash is that you can more easily charge it if you need some extra power. i mean, if you cc and then use the cstick, you can still charge using z but it's just more of a pain

 

[Nihonjin]

And from what I see, amsah's sheik isn't even that good. maybe in europe it is.. if you come to pound 4, have fun with all the foxes there.

My money match with Eggm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLWX43j_U7M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06vlqsW240I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8KvIUx2B-g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH6YYbZSyFE

I had fun..:embarrass

Spoiler

Caaaaaalm down, I'm just messing with you GOD! enjoy the vids..=]

 

[Lawrencelot]

lol, only jc usmash obvi.

the pro of jc usmash is that you can more easily charge it if you need some extra power. i mean, if you cc and then use the cstick, you can still charge using z but it's just more of a pain

And besides that, the biggest advantage is that you can do a jc upsmash while dashing, while a cc upsmash can only be done after the initial dash (while running).

 

[Dorsey]

Just ducking is safer than D-tilting because if he CCs your D-tilt and D-tilts back, you will be knocked over first or launched and comboed. Whereas if you just ducked you'd be safe.

Which is why I said that it has it's 'occasional' use and I agreed with not making CC-ing a habit. If I think I can bait ganon into a grab attempt and I can get a dtilt out, then yes, I will dtilt, no questions asked. Am I saying that this is an awesome tool by sheik and can be used a lot? No. More so I just through that out there just because I was surprised when you said not to dtilt as a rule. There are several other random situations I could think of using the dtilt as well on ganon...

How so? Some of your moves are bigger than his. You have more aerial priority. Seems pretty straight-forward to me. Only catch is that you have to learn where the invisible hitboxes are and how long they extend, but even then most of his invisible hitboxes are obvious after a few games with him if you're paying him the appropriate attention.

Well there's no such thing as 'aerial priority'. Priority exists only between grounded moves, right? haha I don't mean to pick that apart or anything; if you're referring to each opponents ability to space their hitboxes at an optimum level, then sheik has an advantage but it's not as distinct as you say, *imo*. Anyway, I think you're right about it generally. I just thought that a little more could be said for someone who is unfamiliar with the luigi match-up, assuming that the luigi they're facing is playing the sheik match-up properly as well in regard to his aerial spacing / prioritization battles.

Uair > his aerial hitboxes

And his floatiness makes him easier to punish, I think, when he's forced to approach, because he hangs in the air for longer and while airborne he doesn't have as many defensive options to protect himself from your better hitboxes and range (attack, double jump, air-dodge versus attack, cc, wd back, shield, dodge, roll, etc).

Well yeah, only if you watch and react to him though.......which I thought I said?(not sure.. not looking back atm) I was just stressing the importance of not rushing into baited openings luigi gives you and instead wait for him to do something and counter his approach on your own terms.

This habit is punishable by doing a combo starter --> shield. Or just doing Uairs.


I too have played these matchups a lot. I suppose I just think differently than you?

haha we think about it a little differently but not so much I don't think, I didn't see any solid disagreements really..... I just thought to myself 'if I didn't know the match-up, I might not totally get what kk means when he says that'.. and named some situations in which luigi used to **** me with before I knew the match-up really....idk man! I'm no expert on it, and I know much more about ganon than luigi.. although they're the 2 match-ups I play pretty much. I'm sure you're more effective and have better results in both match-ups. I'm also kinda ****ty at explaining things, a lot of the good stuff I do in match-ups is habitual and can't recall while typing a post.

And yeah, the uair (and even the utilt..) is easy to outspace any of luigi's aerials just off reaction.

 

[Dorsey]

nice set amsah. which NA space animal gave you the most trouble at pound do you think? Happen to play pp?

 

[Nihonjin]

nice set amsah. which NA space animal gave you the most trouble at pound do you think? Happen to play pp?

Yes, I played PP, didn't go much different than against Zhu..=]

The one I had the most trouble with, Lucky, but because he overwhelmed me.

The best I played, Mango. His spacies are definitely the smartest, fastest and most effecient I've ever played, there's no doubt in my mind he's best Fox and Falco in the world. Which puts my heart at ease because I know I'm not losing to them (or any other spaces) in a tournament

Spoiler

anymore

..:embarrass

 

[GOD!]

My money match with Eggm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLWX43j_U7M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06vlqsW240I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8KvIUx2B-g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH6YYbZSyFE

I had fun..:embarrass

Spoiler

Caaaaaalm down, I'm just messing with you GOD! enjoy the vids..=]

LOL. U STUPID MOTHER-
Haha, jk. You are actually a lot better than I thought. Nice tag btw. And color embarrassembarrass:embarrass

 

[KirbyKaze]

Well there's no such thing as 'aerial priority'. Priority exists only between grounded moves, right? haha I don't mean to pick that apart or anything; if you're referring to each opponents ability to space their hitboxes at an optimum level, then sheik has an advantage but it's not as distinct as you say, *imo*. Anyway, I think you're right about it generally. I just thought that a little more could be said for someone who is unfamiliar with the luigi match-up, assuming that the luigi they're facing is playing the sheik match-up properly as well in regard to his aerial spacing / prioritization battles.

Aerial priority doesn't exist but I have this awful habit from years of people referring to "priority" as the means that moves beat one another that I still use it.

I should have said, "Sheik's invisible hitboxes outgay Luigi's invisible hitboxes, meaning they are more disjointed and she even has longer limbs to use them with. So have your invisible hitboxes overlap his hurtbox before you're in contact with his invisible hitboxes during move-to-move interaction."

But I felt "outprioritize him" would be understood just as easily.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

My money match with Eggm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLWX43j_U7M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06vlqsW240I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8KvIUx2B-g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH6YYbZSyFE

I had fun..:embarrass

Spoiler

Caaaaaalm down, I'm just messing with you GOD! enjoy the vids..=]

edit: dam# your black highlighting

And besides that, the biggest advantage is th8at you can do a jc upsmash while dashing, while a cc upsmash can only be done after the initial dash (while running).

ahhhhhhh i see. i would refute the charging thing cuz im a fan on running dsmashes so the charging thing flips there

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

oops my bad

 

[Nihonjin]

^
Now I'm curious what you wrote..:embarrass

 

[GOD!]

^
Now I'm curious what you wrote..:embarrass

In the interest of helpful discussion... its probably not a good idea.
I have never seen a sheik grab so few times. Its like watching a different character completely.

 

[Kira-]

Yes, I played PP, didn't go much different than against Zhu..=]

The one I had the most trouble with, Lucky, but because he overwhelmed me.

The best I played, Mango. His spacies are definitely the smartest, fastest and most effecient I've ever played, there's no doubt in my mind he's best Fox and Falco in the world. Which puts my heart at ease because I know I'm not losing to them (or any other spaces) in a tournament

Spoiler

anymore

..:embarrass

your falco game is amazing, im actually convinced that sheik beats falco but you play it so simply and efficiently

lucky is amazing too =) what do you mean by he overwhelmed you?

edit - one more thing, what do you look for when fox is camping you on FD?

oh and how do you decide to shield pressure? what makes you do one move over another?

 

[Nihonjin]

In the interest of helpful discussion... its probably not a good idea.
I have never seen a sheik grab so few times. Its like watching a different character completely.

I assume that's a good thing..=]

your falco game is amazing, im actually convinced that sheik beats falco but you play it so simply and efficiently

Thanks..:embarrass

lucky is amazing too =) what do you mean by he overwhelmed you?

He's fast, smart and extremely aggressive. Because of that our matches didn't last very long, which is why I was unable to adapt to him in time..

I probably would've been able to in a best of 5, because I was starting to catch on in the third match, but Lucky got two brutal kills in and took it anyway..

- one more thing, what do you look for when fox is camping you on FD?

I actually panicked against Jman..lol

But I guess what you can do is corner him, but don't attack, instead, bait him into attacking you, then retreat with bairs/fairs or keep him cornered by spacing tilts..

But it really depends on the player..=]

and how do you decide to shield pressure? what makes you do one move over another?

I don't really think about it concsiously, I just do whatever feels best at the time.

But I guess:

Spaced Ftilts - When you want to provoke a roll (or simply make them feel helpless).. They're the hardest to punish, they're fast, have great range and people are scared to move because if they hit it sets up for a fair

Uptilts - for easy shield stabs and shield **** (combine it with jabs and shffled fairs so you stay unpredictable and don't get shield grabbed)

Dtilts - To shield stab when their shield is small or when they tilt it upwards..

Jab - When someone has 180% or more because it combos into fairs/nairs (or simply use it to stay unpredictable after tilts/fairs)..

Shffled fairs - When trying to shield stab (or just pressure in combination with tilts)

Dsmash - To break a shield when it's small..=]

That's about it..=D

 

[darkatma]

amsah's the most amazing sheik everrr
/end

-->fan since 2006(or7, i forget)

 

[GooeyBanana]

I'm going to have to agree, Sheik's usmash is my favorite move now xP