Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[_Rocky_]

falcon's barely different, especially for good falcons who are already capable of gentleman-ing with some consistency

indirect buffs too
sheik and to some extent fox are way easier to face in general

if were taking the european metagame into account, then lol
i can actually see darkrain/hax/ss/scar getting top 2 at some tourneys

 

[ZoSo]

@ All the Sheik-Marth guides..

No aerials vs Marth? Only approach from the ground with grabs and dash attacks?

lol, you guys are going to be clueless on what to do if you ever play PAL...

If you're not denying that it's effective in NTSC, I don't really see the problem.

I'm lol'ing at the idea that the deficit in skill between American and Euro Sheiks is solely or even mostly the result of version differences.

Euro Sheiks are better players. Like Pocky said, sometimes it just works out that way.

With regard to PAL Falcon, not being able to get effortlessly gimped by Falco at almost any % counts for a lot, I'd say.

 

[pockyD]

indirect buffs too
sheik and to some extent fox are way easier to face in general

if were taking the european metagame into account, then lol
i can actually see darkrain/hax/ss/scar getting top 2 at some tourneys

well since i'm not running a pal tourney or anything, i don't know how much that matters

it's not like i have several yoshi mains banging on my door, chomping at the bit

everyone that's come over has pretty much wanted to play as or against sheik, or use the super annoying foreign jigglypuff noises

 

[SonuvaBeach]

I haven't played Chu, so I can't say for sure, but I don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be. Just don't try to grab them (until Nana dies) and don't dsmash out of habit or you'll get grabbed.

In my mind at worst it's 55/45 on FD and 50/50 on stages with platforms.

But like I said, I haven't played Chu, so he might completely change my mind..:embarrass

Yeah, when I played Trail in sets for the first time I changed my mind quickly. I still don't see it being worse than 55/45 though. The IC's punish game is just so superior. They predict one thing right or you misspace or miss a cancel or dsmash out of habit and they have a stock due to grab. Whereas you have to grind out every life through spacing aerials and needles.

Then let me ask you, why not?[/QUOTE]

Marth's fair > sheik? Maybe. How good is sheik's bair reallly?

 

[Nihonjin]

Yeah, when I played Trail in sets for the first time I changed my mind quickly. I still don't see it being worse than 55/45 though. The IC's punish game is just so superior. They predict one thing right or you misspace or miss a cancel or dsmash out of habit and they have a stock due to grab. Whereas you have to grind out every life through spacing aerials and needles.

Which isn't very hard because Sheik's range, speed and mobility are awesome..=]

Sure, when they get a grab your entire stock is gone, but unless it's FD, that's much easier said than done.

Marth's fair > sheik? Maybe. How good is sheik's bair really?

Not really.. just alternate between Shffled fairs with different timing, full jump fairs with or without fast falling. Subtle differences like that mess up the Marths timing and allow you to be able to actually approach them.

But I'm not really in the mood to write an actual guide now, and not sure I want to be giving people insight into how I think..But I might later.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

You are free to disagree but I really don't feel aerials are that good as an approach against Marth unless you're already close to him or he's also airborne.

i personally prefer the easier dash attacks and grabs over anything else buttttt
ill take utilt is gay for $500

 

[kpat]

Nice marth matchup info KK.

I think it would be cool if the community came together and worked on updating the sheik guide with the most current matchup info, techs, and good videos to learn from. Not that the current guide is bad, I just think it needs some updating.

Also, I was wondering since I don't have people to play with, what kind of things should I work on by myself? What level computers should I play and such?

Last thing :/.. How does gliding work, I can never get it consistently...

 

[gm jack]

why bother though

it'd be basically learning to play suboptimally

edit: and I personally have been playing a bit of PAL recently... it's fun in its own way, but it's certainly not making my ntsc sheik any better

Because from watching a few of various Sheik's pound videos, you were searching for very risky grabs and/or missing other chances simply because once the grab is landed, it leads to so much. Other players expected the grabs and punished according. Admittedly, a lot of the time it averaged out in the Sheik's favour, but safety is paramount at high levels. Miss a grab against Hbox and you can say goodbye to your stock.

Amsah seemed an exception, and he didn't put all his faith in the grab, and played far safer. Might just be bias because I was half expecting to see it, but I'm not sure.

TL;DR grabs aren't always the safest option, and safety is good at the highest levels of play.

 

[R3N0]

I might pick sheik back up, amsah's fair **** is ****. lol.

but i can't help but like fox's nair more. *shrug*

 

[KirbyKaze]

Then let me ask you, why not?

I don't feel her lack of aerial mobility and high jumps are good against a retreating Marth.

 

[Nihonjin]

I don't feel her lack of aerial mobility and high jumps are good against a retreating Marth.

Threaten with your needles to keep a Marth's movement under control..=]

 

[pockyD]

Because from watching a few of various Sheik's pound videos, you were searching for very risky grabs and/or missing other chances simply because once the grab is landed, it leads to so much. Other players expected the grabs and punished according. Admittedly, a lot of the time it averaged out in the Sheik's favour, but safety is paramount at high levels. Miss a grab against Hbox and you can say goodbye to your stock.

Amsah seemed an exception, and he didn't put all his faith in the grab, and played far safer. Might just be bias because I was half expecting to see it, but I'm not sure.

TL;DR grabs aren't always the safest option, and safety is good at the highest levels of play.

so what you're saying is a grab-based game is higher-risk, higher-reward whereas a non-grab-based game is low-risk, low-reward

i don't think the latter is strictly better than the former in general, although it certainly can be for many matchups

 

[gm jack]

Not strictly, just I saw some players diving for grabs that were clearly not safe as opposed to other options, such as aerial spacing and aerial needles.

 

[pockyD]

right, but getting a grab would also have a clearly higher reward than hitting a needle

 

[Nihonjin]

so what you're saying is a grab-based game is higher-risk, higher-reward whereas a non-grab-based game is low-risk, low-reward

i don't think the latter is strictly better than the former in general, although it certainly can be for many matchups

It's not high-risk/high-reward vs low-risk/low-reward. It's being versatile opposed to being limited to a single strategy.

By using all of Sheiks assets you become less predictable, which works in your favor offensively as well as defensively and you can deal with situations you normally can't relying on just her grab.

right, but getting a grab would also have a clearly higher reward than hitting a needle

Yes, but if the grab was unlikely to connect, then it's still smarter to just go for aerials or needles. Guaranteed 100% chance to deal 20% damage is better than a 0.01% chance to get a grab, especially if missing the grab means you'll be the one getting damaged.

Besides, even if it was a guaranteed grab, there are some situations where needles are more rewarding.

 

[gm jack]

right, but getting a grab would also have a clearly higher reward than hitting a needle

One is likely to get you hit in the face. The other is **** near unpunishable.

Also what Amsah said. In fact, it goes together. It doesn't matter how good a strategy is if it is possible to be countered and they know it is coming. In this case, you are really vulnerable to WD back into whatever if they see a grab or dash attack coming. However, if you jump and throw a few needles, all they can do from WD back is be in a reset situation.

 

[pockyD]

One is likely to get you hit in the face. The other is **** near unpunishable.

right, hence the "high risk" part of the equation

Also what Amsah said. In fact, it goes together. It doesn't matter how good a strategy is if it is possible to be countered and they know it is coming. In this case, you are really vulnerable to WD back into whatever if they see a grab or dash attack coming. However, if you jump and throw a few needles, all they can do from WD back is be in a reset situation.

It's not high-risk/high-reward vs low-risk/low-reward. It's being versatile opposed to being limited to a single strategy.

By using all of Sheiks assets you become less predictable, which works in your favor offensively as well as defensively and you can deal with situations you normally can't relying on just her grab.

...

Yes, but if the grab was unlikely to connect, then it's still smarter to just go for aerials or needles. Guaranteed 100% chance to deal 20% damage is better than a 0.01% chance to get a grab, especially if missing the grab means you'll be the one getting damaged.

Besides, even if it was a guaranteed grab, there are some situations where needles are more rewarding.

i think you guys might be overrating both the frequency that we (ntsc players) go for grabs and underrating the power that grabs have

most players aren't dumb enough to go for a grab with a 0.01% chance of connecting, and those who are probably don't represent the level of gameplay that's worth dissecting on such a wide scale (basically continent vs. continent)

what are a few situations where it'd be better to hit with a needle than a grab when both would be guaranteed?

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

why not just mix up grabs with nongrabs? best of both worlds
its not like (well at least for me but i expect everyone else is the same) i will grab and only grab, and if i miss a grab i will try again.

 

[gm jack]

And against some characters, that gets you destroyed.

I know it seems like missing a few isn't so bad, but on a slight tangent, look at Hbox. Nothing fancy. Not much high risk:reward stuff. Just continual safety. I know you want to get your 1337 Dthrows in, and it's still a great throw in PAL. But whenever you aren't sure you are going to get the grab, why not get tack damage then try again? You lose nothing for it.

 

[pockyD]

well unfortunately, jiggly can play low-risk + high-reward

**** JIGGLYPUFF!!

 

[Kira-]

Does anyone else think that falcon and sheik are played similar against spacies?

grab, tech chase, ****

its just a bit easier for sheik to get the hits in, but falcons hits do a lot more

 

[Nihonjin]

why not just mix up grabs with nongrabs? best of both worlds.

Isn't that what I do..? :embarrass

I think you guys might be overrating both the frequency that we (ntsc players) go for grabs and underrating the power that grabs have.

Not really, I've been to pound remember? =]

most players aren't dumb enough to go for a grab with a 0.01% chance of connecting, and those who are probably don't represent the level of gameplay that's worth dissecting on such a wide scale (basically continent vs. continent)

That was quite obviously a hyperbole.

What are a few situations where it'd be better to hit with a needle than a grab when both would be guaranteed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-2IJ8x4uf4#movie_player

^2:24
I could easily grab him out of his upB, needles were a better choice.. (too lazy to look for more examples)

So that, and situations where needles get you a grab afterwards..=]

 

[DJRome]

an unexpected knee netting no di is like a gimp

 

[pockyD]

That was quite obviously a hyperbole.

I'm obviously aware of that... but even if you made it a more realistic percentage (like 25 or 40 or whatever), the same thing would apply

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-2IJ8x4uf4#movie_player

^2:24
I could easily grab him out of his upB, needles were a better choice.. (too lazy to look for more examples)

well edgeguarding is obviously different, as there will then be plenty of cases where neither one is the optimal move... and I personally almost never see anyone going for the grab in that case anyway (frankly the most common move to see there would probably be dsmash or something similar to what you did, needles into edgehog)

So that, and situations where needles get you a grab afterwards..=]

 

[Nihonjin]

I'm obviously aware of that... but even if you made it a more realistic percentage (like 25 or 40 or whatever), the same thing would apply

I'm not sure it does..=/

well edgeguarding is obviously different, as there will then be plenty of cases where neither one is the optimal move... and I personally almost never see anyone going for the grab in that case anyway

I brought it up because I saw someone do that..lol

I actually got grab happy against Armada for a bit which got me killed..

(frankly the most common move to see there would probably be dsmash or something similar to what you did, needles into edgehog)

Fair enough.

But either way, my point wasn't necessarily about needles (or guaranteed grabs), because obviously grabs will be better in general. I was talking about risky grabs opposed to safe aerials and tilts.

For example, I've seen a lot of US Sheiks go for platform wavelands to grabs, even when their opponent can roll/spotdodge/grab them, opposed to staying under the platform and bombarding them with aerials without risking any damage.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

Isn't that what I do..? :embarrass

thats what we all do i was just pointing out its not so black and white with grabs

 

[Nihonjin]

You're missing my point, but I'm gonna drop it, I'm tired..=]

 

[Kira-]

By using all of Sheiks assets you become less predictable, which works in your favor offensively as well as defensively and you can deal with situations you normally can't relying on just her grab.

this is probably taking your statement out of context and i didnt really read the rest of the debate but,

how do you approach with just shorthop flip back and fair and always win? i'm jealous =P

 

[nicaboy]

I don't see how playing pal is gonna make me a better sheik in ntsc. Maybe you might learn a thing or too but its not worth my time beside some fun. Hell sheiks grabs are among one of the best of the game in terms of grab range and follow ups(****ing cgs all day homei)or tech chases etc. Why would a grab less over all? Thats ********! And lol kira change your character thing back to sheik! Captain falco is nothing compared to sheik!

 

[Faithkeeper]

For example, I've seen a lot of US Sheiks go for platform wavelands to grabs, even when their opponent can roll/spotdodge/grab them, opposed to staying under the platform and bombarding them with aerials without risking any damage.

On this slight tangent, I'm considering picking up sheik, what are some god aerials to do that with? If you want to stay under the platform ( I assume you do) it seems to me like your only options are bair and uair. Is one safer or gets bigger reward?

 

[Plairnkk]

amsah the waveland grab stuff is really REALLY good from time to time, it just cant be done to the point that it is expected. i used to only do aerials but against certain chars the waveland grab stuff is too beast cuz of ntsc's grab. In pal tho i would never do it. im still trying to perfect it which is why i spam it, but it's def a good -OPTION- to add in.

 

[Nihonjin]

I don't see how playing pal is gonna make me a better sheik in ntsc. Maybe you might learn a thing or too but its not worth my time beside some fun.

You don't see how learning the character inside out would be a good thing?

On this slight tangent, I'm considering picking up sheik, what are some god aerials to do that with? If you want to stay under the platform ( I assume you do) it seems to me like your only options are bair and uair. Is one safer or gets bigger reward?

I use bair and fair, they're both relatively safe because you stay below your opponent (but because bair has longer reach I guess that's safer), as for rewards, both have their advantages and disadvantages against different characters at different percentages.. So you'll have to be a little bit more specific..:embarrass

this is probably taking your statement out of context and i didnt really read the rest of the debate but,

how do you approach with just shorthop flip back and fair and always win? i'm jealous =P

Lots of practice..=D

amsah the waveland grab stuff is really REALLY good from time to time, it just cant be done to the point that it is expected. i used to only do aerials but against certain chars the waveland grab stuff is too beast cuz of ntsc's grab. In pal tho i would never do it. im still trying to perfect it which is why i spam it, but it's def a good -OPTION- to add in.

Oh I agree with you, the more options the less predictable, the better.. =]

I wasn't saying "never waveland grab", just that sometimes, it's not the best option to go for grabs, but because it's so hard coded in the NTSC Sheik players their game, they try it anyway and get punished for it.

 

[strawhats]

Amsah work on that jiggz matchup Hungrybox looked like he was having a field day against you.

Have you played mango's puff yet?

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

this is probably taking your statement out of context and i didnt really read the rest of the debate but,

how do you approach with just shorthop flip back and fair and always win? i'm jealous =P

its that european magic. ive actually tried it before if i had to guess most people go "oh hey look sheik jumped back that means shes retrea..... THWAK"

edit: if anyone seriously wants to try playing with out grabbing to get better... just remove your z button lol

 

[Nihonjin]

Amsah work on that jiggz matchup Hungrybox looked like he was having a field day against you.

I think we were both playing as if it was a friendly because we already knew what the outcome would be..
I was playing to learn the matchup and Juan was just spamming rests and having fun..lol

But now that I've seen the matches against him I learned quite a lot. I know exactly what I did wrong and what I did right and even things I should or shouldn't do that weren't in the vids at all. I'm positive I can beat him next time..=]

Have you played mango's puff yet?

No, he didn't want to play. But my guess is he'll be less trouble than HungryBox.

If anyone seriously wants to try playing with out grabbing to get better... just remove your z button lol

L + A =D

Besides, we grab in PAL, just don't use Dthrow, try getting creative with Up/back & forward throws instead..:embarrass

 

[nicaboy]

Don't get me wrong amsah learning your character inside out is a great thing of course. However what is pal gonna teach about the version of melee i play? Maybe you can enlighten me but the time i would spend playing it i might as well play ntsc. Now maybe it would teach me to not rely on grabs as heavily as i do but at least realise a sheik main here in america is gonna utilize everything they can here grabs included since we have an insane amount of options out side of it. Out of curiosity how different is sheiks grab in pal? Is they grab range th same? And im aware that sheiks down throw sends opponents more horizontal making chain grabs impossible if they di. And yes you never rely on one move/approach to heavily unless your opponent keeps falling for it.

 

[Nihonjin]

I was just kidding of course.

1) It's too much of a hassle to actually find someone to play PAL against regularly for it to pay off.
2) They play NTSC where you live.

I'm just saying that because the grab is so ridiculously good, NTSC Sheik players tend to put in less effort to learn more about their character which ultimately hurts their game (sometimes).

 

[Teczer0]

All jokes aside I'm sad I didn't get to play the PAL version .

Though it was mainly for personal kicks.

And Amsah I 100% agree with you. Its also the reason why Marth players tend to do so bad in the US too (Or in general probably).

Though I really wish I could play the PAL version somewhere, it would allow me to play 100% while practicing instead of putting limits on myself and then forget to put them to use =(

 

[Nihonjin]

Well, I might be back in August, so maybe I can bring a PAL version with me for you then..=]?

 

[Teczer0]

Well, I might be back in August, so maybe I can bring a PAL version with me for you then..=]?

My bday is the 24th of August by the way.

I'm expecting you to visit and play me for my bday .

Spoiler

Okay fine I'm kidding =(, I don't expect you to come to my house. Would be amazing though