Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Emblem Lord]

Not you Rad. And he prolly loses to DK slightly and beats Ganon slightly.

 

[Zano]

I've played like 2 games with marth, don't take anything I say seriously as a heads up.

 

[Reizilla]

Marth loses to everyone without a C stick.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Having no luck getting all of Marths customs. I just need one more. Effortless Blade. It never shows up but I get duplicates of everything else. Anyone else having this problem? For those that have all his customs did you just grind Classic with Marth for all of them or did you play other chars too and get some for him?

 

[Novaseer]

@ Emblem Lord Marth's effortless blade custom is unlocked through a challenge. You have to clear 100-Man Smash in 3 minutes.

 

[KillLock]

you have to get the 3rd page of challenges, it sucks but it has to be done in order to unlock it from the 100-man smash

 

[Emblem Lord]

Thats some horse ****

 

[grandmaster192]

Speaking of customs, do you think it's worth it using that up b that goes farther?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I did a tourney today with customs. I knew I wouldnt do well since I dont have time to train but I wanted to see if it would help Marths meta the way I thought it would and I was pleased with the results.

My load out was as follows

Standard Special 3 - Dashing Assault
Side Special 1 - Dancing Blade
Up Special 3 - Dolphin Jump
Down Special 3 - Iai Counter

This set-up has one purpose. To solidify Marths ground dominance thus allowing him to control the pace of the match and slow the game down to a point where he can dictate the flow while pushing his opponent off stage. Once there, Dolphin Jump allows for hyper aggressive edge guarding plays which either lead to a stock loss or at minimum Marth is able to lay on huge damage to his opponent before they can make it back.

Dashing Assault covers huge distance and is transcendent so it will beat basically any head on attack. At worst it will trade, which isnt a big deal, since usually you are just trading with some kind of poke. It also greatly aids Marth in his horizontal recovery and for getting out of air traps. Dancing Blade is your main punish tool OoS and for your traps. Dolphin Jump lets Marth go DEEP for those delicious edgeguards and of course he is much better with his vertical recovery. Iai counter is strong not only for anti edge guarding but also vs projectiles as Marth steps forward during the swing and the recovery is quick. This forces projectile users to give pause and have a little more respect. It also helps his recovery when countering an attack when recovering from the stage.

This set-up has strong synergy and really brings his ground game together while also aiding his recovery options, not to mention making him better at escaping trap situations. Effortless Blade may be better with this set-up as it will aid in the goal of pushing towards the ledge/off the stage.

Weaknesses of this set-up

Dolphin Jump lacks a hitbox so Marth losses a strong defensive option with Dolphin Slash. Arguably THE best defensive option in the game. So you are trading stage control and ultimate edge guarding potential for the loss in that defensive option. Iai Counter has a small counter window. You need to be perfect and thus its better suited for use against projectiles and obvious edge guard attempts. Dashing Assault is weaker than Shield Breaker. It's damage really isn't scary.

So this set-up is not OP, though I do feel it makes Marth better than his default and honestly depending on the match, you can alter his set-up to suit you. Vs Little Mac you don't need Dolphin Jump that's for sure but vs Sonic I think you will want to keep it.

Dashing Assault is really the key component here and at one point almost everyone at the venue was watching my first tourney match. Everyone was in awe at how much Dashing Assault forced you to be respectful. I lost early, but that didn't matter. I don't think there was anyone in the crowd that wasn't impressed by this move.

I'm digging this move. Alot.

 

[Shaya]

Dashing Assault is the best move in the game, I still haven't been shown otherwise =).

Good write up, I agree.
People have to respect Marth because of dash breaker, hence we can play the game the way we want to.
We edge guard better than everyone else, and dash breaker makes it so easy to put an opponent into that situation. The rest of our moveset isn't bad at it either, and the opportunities to use those moves are ever existent because of the respect players have to give Marth.

 

[Rad]

You can be hanging on the ledge at the same time as zss if she uses her tether. This puts her underneath you and leaves me lost and confused.

 

[Zano]

Y'know, I've been thinking about how all the **** and stuff has made marth feel underwhelming, then I see videos like this

and then I was like

 

[Emblem Lord]

I wasnt. I despise unneccessary nerfs

 

[Zano]

I don't think any nerf done to mk should be viewed as unnecessary

 

[Shaya]

[Shaya] for the love of god and all things holy, can people stop looking at these and go "WOW INSANE, UBER NERFS" and have a LOOK at where his SWORD IS during these animations? None of his moves have his sword literally connecting with the opponent (other than dtilt) without hitting them. He has some cool WHOOSH effects/graphics on all of his attacks. It's a little weird/awkward, but not nonsensical.
Just now · Like

Has anyone actually sat down to test MK's range? I doubt it. Is his noticeably shorter than Marths? If that's the case, then maybe he deserved [some of] it, but I don't think his swords been gutted.

 

[Zano]

it's not a matter of the swoosh effect going right through them, it's that it's the same exact distance away from the opponent in each comparison and it's very visibly less range. The swoosh would basically be his range if it was still brawl.

 

[Shaya]

Except in Brawl, his sword is actually reaching the opponent and he is lunging significantly more forward with most of his attacks as well.
The end of his sword isn't a hidden disjoint anymore (which in Brawl in some cases was enough to outdisjoint ****ing lucario forward smash), in fact in some cases he's being snubbed/cut short.

In Brawl, Marth's sword attacks usually have 5 hitbubbles covering his sword/himself in some capacity, this allowed his hits to be concise. MK's hitbubbles in Brawl were lazy, most attacks were 2 hitboxes or a third near/on the body, covering the same length sword meant he was getting significantly more reach in places his sword wasn't.

I would assume MK in this game's hitbubbles are actually properly tied to his sword in this game, much like Marth was.

None of these videos are showing what hidden hitbox bull **** is on MK's up tilt or up smash in this game either. It looks like MK's sword is shorter in this game than Marth's though, which eh, is probably fair considering his body size/5 jumps.

 

[Emblem Lord]

In terms of game game design he has no business outranging Marth considering his rushdown was better, his trapping was better, his recovery was better, he attacked faster and and recovered faster.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, I agree. The moment I get a c-stick though, the dair camping is going to be back in full force on MK, and people aren't going to be able to do anything about it (STILL!)

 

[Remzi]

I'm about to play Chillin on his stream if anyone wants to tune in. I'll be going Marth, Zard, and maybe Robin.

http://www.azubu.tv/chillindude

 

[Reizilla]

How do I beat Ness? Ignore the fact that the Ness is a better player than me. Also ignore that I play Lucina, as I'm sure you guys are much more helpful than them.

 

[pants name guy]

Focus on spacing. Don't give him enough space to spam his projectiles because that is bad. Either stay really far away or be right up in his face. This applies to TL and Duck Hunt as well. If he's recovering and you can anticipate when/where he's gonna use pk thunder2 you can generally just go hit him pretty safely unless he has lucas customs on or something (not a problem on for glory). Be careful though because pkt2 is rly strong.

 

[LordShade67]

Welp, today's PoTD showed the Wii U's tips thing, and surprisingly, it kinda features Marth. We all know this. but....

 

[InfinityCollision]

Crosspost for anyone going for the Classic 9.0 challenge:

Fun tip for anyone attempting classic 9.0 with Marth/Lucina: the mimic form of Master Core uses up-b any time you're sufficiently high above them (double jump seemed to be enough). This is at least true for Dolphin Jump and probably true for the other variations. If you have Dolphin Jump set then it'll just up-b into the air pointlessly and you can get a poke in 100% safely. Rinse and repeat until it dies.

 

[Shaya]

I'm definitely playing Lucina a hell of a lot right now.

She's literally my weighted clothing, hat and boots. Drop those off in a pinch to turn evenish matches that I win into 2 stocks.
I feel like I'll probably be doing this in tournament too, not just local friendlies + wifi; doesn't seem to hurt my Marth in any perceivable way, although I do use jab and shieldbreaker more on Lucina than I do Marth.

I would say a lot to do with the difference in how I do with Marth is just how great and easy walking + tippering is; forward tilt is just so much better on Marth in those footsie situations its kinda insane though (and a shame) and how much I get out of tipper aerials -always-, while rewards barely feel different otherwise. Forward Smash also feels so easy to tipper with in this in comparison to Brawl (virtually anyone coming in from above head height = tippered, it never lies).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yeah truth. In air to ground trap situations and as an anti air forward smash is nice as hell. If you can nail that in latency you are good to go for when the Wii U version drops.

 

[Zano]

shaya, random and kinda late but regarding bowser jrs side b, it does actually sorta have super armor. The cart itself has armor while the koopaling does not, so it will not lose out to low attacks

 

[Shaya]

Re: Forward Smash Tippers
Maybe I've just been praying to the Leon Shrine enough to be blessed, but I think we're dealing with a move that got heavily buffed this game (kill power alone was obviously buffed A LOT).

shaya, random and kinda late but regarding bowser jrs side b, it does actually sorta have super armor. The cart itself has armor while the koopaling does not, so it will not lose out to low attacks

I'm trying to remember where or when I was concerned about this, haha. I'm trying to think whether or not my dtilt has always lost. Perhaps in the early frames or it isn't covering him on the lowest 'hurtboxes'.

Asides from that, I don't think the move's too hard to deal with. Even on Wifi I just walk towards them until they start side-b and then backroll twice into free punish, or shield the car then backroll once for a punish. Seems less potent than Falco's side b in terms of dealing with it, that's for sure. Obviously full hop fair beats it all the time then I guess

The new pain in the ass side-b in this game is Diddy's. The grab box on that seems a lot bigger than it was in Brawl (or it feels like I'm dealing with melee style grab armor), the kicks been nerfed a little I think, and loses to most of our moves easy enough, but it's still potent.

 

[Zano]

oh the move isn't hard to deal with at all, it's quite terrible once you know that you just don't hit it low, but it was during w/e that last time you streamed and you kept getting hit by it because I think you kept trying to dtilt it.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, I stopped trying to beat it head on, on wifi. Really hard to time fairs to react to it, so I just do the reactive rolls to beat it now.

 

[snowbunny]

Long time casual player here. Never really got into the technical aspects nor competitive play but whenever friends hung out we would play 1v1. I'm a Street Fighter heh. I didn't really know where to put this so since I'm trying out Marth I figured it could go here.

I'm sure I was doing it in Melee but I never really knew what I was doing nor what it was called. I understand the concept of Pivoting. I know it's good oki tech, assuming you read the roll correctly. But what I'm having trouble with is performing the FSmash. I can pivot FTilt and pivot grab but I can't get a FSmash to come out. I maybe do it a couple times but what I think is happening is I'm waiting for the dash frames to finish and just side smashing in the direction I want.

Maybe I'll go into training mode and look at timing restrictions. Does the Smash community have frame data on dashes and the like?

[edit] My best guess is that I'm not timing Jab with my control stick. I'm assuming the Tilt comes out instead because I'm already holding a direction by the time I press the attack button.

 

[Zano]

it's gonna be pretty **** trying to do it with 3ds controls, don't stress yourself too much on it and just wait til you have a proper c stick

 

[Shaya]

I don't know if you do pivot fsmashes unless it's out of an initial dash ? Maybe it's a little inconsistent, but I know that the initial frames of dash is still relatively easy to do (it's known as stutter stepping).

 

[snowbunny]

I went into training mode. I'm pretty sure I can't consistently do it because, your right, the controls are ass. I'm miss-timing my Jabs with the stick(pad?). It's a little discouraging because I've had several instances where the opponent is floating back to the platform and I pivot into what would've been a tipper but only land a tipper tilt or a whiffed tilt(spacing2hard).

 

[Xyro77]

Unless it's Already been said, I believe marth has longer range when compared to Lucina. I can upload a vid. Maybe you all can tell me what I'm seeing.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Makes sense. He is taller as has been stated before.

 

[Zano]

upload the vid, a visual reference would be neat.

 

[Shaya]

He reaches platforms with jab and fsmash where Lucina cannot, that's at least a start of that.
I wouldn't be surprised, seeing as i'm always feeling this tipper forward smashes while I'm just swinging at open air.

 

[Reizilla]

Just stutter-step Fsmash. It's easier and I think faster.

 

[Xyro77]

The video is exactly what Shaya described, Zano

I think Marth may end up being better than Lucina in the long term