Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Shaya]

It doesn't make sense that lucina can handle anything that Marth cannot, people really need to stop saying the exact same thing you do all the time , no matter how many times I say it nor how many times I reword it to hopefully be more understandable to new players, I still get to read the same comment/not well thought out logic from people every single day.

I really don't know at what point I will lose my patience.
But welcome to Marth-land, either way.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I seriously feel like you only have 4 viable options if Sonic runs at you or spin dashes at you. Roll cancel Pivot Grab (best option, SH fade away fair, Shield, roll towards him the instant he is about to strike you so neutral is reset.

If you have DA you may challenge him if thats your thing.

I don't see how these options are better with Lucina in any way, shape or form.

 

[Satan-]

So, I've been playing a lot of Marth lately and I've been really enjoying his elegant play style. I'm picking him up as at least a secondary, maybe my main, we'll see.

I've been reading the discussion about Lucina compared to Marth, and how most people have concluded that she is the weaker of the two. While I feel that this is usually true, I feel that there is one exception: against fast, rushdown/weave style characters, I feel that Lucina may have the advantage. I'll use Sonic as an example. Most Sonic players play a style of aggressive rushdown, ideally with spin-dash mix-ups. Sonic is often moving too fast when approaching for us Marth players to optimally space tippers to shut him down. This is where I feel Lucina may shine. Her sword still out-ranges many other attacks, yet her spacing doesn't need to be quite as precise as Marth's, so she can throw out hitboxes against these aggressive characters more effectively, shutting down their approaches with her superior range.

Granted, this is just theory-crafting at the moment, as there's no local Sm4sh scene where I'm at, and not many people play a rushdown style in For Glory. I hope to be able to eventually test these ideas out more.

I've played against a few Sonics here in Toronto and I must say that anything Lucina can do against Sonic, Marth can too. Granted this was a while ago when I was still using Lucina...

Anyways like Shaya said, anything Lucina can handle, Marth can too. They have the exact same frame data so any move of Lucina that can beat the spin dash, the same move on Marth will too. Marth has the advantage of dealing more damage with tippers which I get quite often.

I seriously feel like you only have 4 viable options if Sonic runs at you or spin dashes at you. Roll cancel Pivot Grab (best option, SH fade away fair, Shield, roll towards him the instant he is about to strike you so neutral is reset.

If you have DA you may challenge him if thats your thing.

I don't see how these options are better with Lucina in any way, shape or form.

You can also Dtilt which I don't see enough Marth's using. One of Marth's most underrated moves. Out of the options you listed, short hop retreating fair or Dashing Assault seem like the best options. SH Fair is a safe option which won't get you punished and DA can outright beat the spin dash (I think). Haven't really tested out DA extensively.

 

[Kinslayer]

I've played against a few Sonics here in Toronto and I must say that anything Lucina can do against Sonic, Marth can too. Granted this was a while ago when I was still using Lucina...

Anyways like Shaya said, anything Lucina can handle, Marth can too. They have the exact same frame data so any move of Lucina that can beat the spin dash, the same move on Marth will too. Marth has the advantage of dealing more damage with tippers which I get quite often.


You can also Dtilt which I don't see enough Marth's using. One of Marth's most underrated moves. Out of the options you listed, short hop retreating fair or Dashing Assault seem like the best options. SH Fair is a safe option which won't get you punished and DA can outright beat the spin dash (I think). Haven't really tested out DA extensively.

How is it underrated when it has been one of our best moves since melee for spacing/ pressure

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, don't think down tilt's underrated, perhaps under discussed.
It's our best ground move by far (DB otherwise). Kinda received nerfs from Brawl, but not really in any potency terms, just "harder" (can't turn around during a crouch stuff basically).

 

[Satan-]

Do you guys know what underrated means? Dtilt is not discussed nearly as much as it should be considering it's one of our best ground spacing and even shild poking moves. Heck i've even seen Marth's online and locally completely ignore it and never use it.

 

[Shaya]

Oh? Don't know how they're doing anything successfully at all then.

My most used bread and butter are fair, down tilt, dancing blade and jab.

 

[Satan-]

Oh? Don't know how they're doing anything successfully at all then.

They're not which is a shame. That's why I was looking for some good Marth/Lucina's to play a page or two back.

 

[Kinslayer]

Do you guys know what underrated means? Dtilt is not discussed nearly as much as it should be considering it's one of our best ground spacing and even shild poking moves. Heck i've even seen Marth's online and locally completely ignore it and never use it.

Something that hasn't really been altered that much since melee doesn't need to be discussed as an option all the time. It's kinda a given that it is absolutely our best poke/attack and has been known for awhile. Also there is plenty of discussion/ elaboration on it when we discuss match ups and a while post on its greatness in the combo/setup thread

 

[Locuan]

Heck i've even seen Marth's online and locally completely ignore it and never use it.

That is interesting. That's basically my go to move in Melee, PM, and Smash 4. It is a great spacing tool, and the ability to hit opponents feet while they have shield up is great. Hm, I guess if I ever see anyone do that locally I'll tell them to incorporate it in their game.

 

[Satan-]

Something that hasn't really been altered that much since melee doesn't need to be discussed as an option all the time. It's kinda a given that it is absolutely our best poke/attack and has been known for awhile. Also there is plenty of discussion/ elaboration on it when we discuss match ups and a while post on its greatness in the combo/setup thread

But it HAS been altered from Brawl to Sm4sh. Anyways, I don't feel like debating this. All I said was Dtilt is underrated, a statement which I stand by considering the lack of discussion about it both here and on the Lucina board.

 

[XionKai]

In the v 1.0.3 did Marth got a Range boost in Smash 4? Maybe it could help his tips, and spacings more? Just wondering.

 

[Satan-]

In the v 1.0.3 did Marth got a Range boost in Smash 4? Maybe it could help his tips, and spacings more? Just wondering.

No he did not.

 

[XionKai]

No he did not.

I see. :/

 

[Satan-]

Yeah...

On another note, I just hit 1000 wins on For Glory. My last opponent was a Japanese Rosalina...

Went mostly Marth with a little bit of Pika and Zard here and there.

 

[XionKai]

Yeah...

On another note, I just hit 1000 wins on For Glory. My last opponent was a Japanese Rosalina...

Went mostly Marth with a little bit of Pika and Zard here and there.

Do you have any tips, on using Marth's tips, and spacing tools?
I used custom!Marth. o: tho

 

[Emblem Lord]

IDK, the reason I don't talk about d-tilt much is because back in Brawl days, I made a point to talk about how amazing it is. I figured it was common knowledge now years later. but Satan if you want..i could go ape **** about how awesome it is like I did 5 years ago.

 

[Kinslayer]

But it HAS been altered from Brawl to Sm4sh. Anyways, I don't feel like debating this. All I said was Dtilt is underrated, a statement which I stand by considering the lack of discussion about it both here and on the Lucina board.

I said it hasn't really been altered, meAning some changes were made but not enough to effect it's usefulness. I'm telling you we talked about the move plenty and there is a post describing in great detail how good the move is. The OP in the strategy thread. We don't need to drag on and on about it because it should be common knowledge.

In sf4 I don't need to go on and on about ryu's cr mk because everyone knows how good of a poke that is.

 

[Zano]

d tilt is like fight club

 

[XionKai]

Should I update my smash bros 3ds, if Marth, didn't got any fix in Smash 4?

 

[Zano]

You can't play online unless you do

 

[XionKai]

You can't play online unless you do

But, what if, It lags for me again, when going online? o:

 

[Shaya]

Lag and Marth go hand in hand.

Choose the way of the wifi to get extra heavy training shoes.
Or, develop tons of bad habits that centre around relying on rolls, counter and shieldbreaker only for success.

 

[Zano]

or just do what I did and quit this character eventually for another princess

 

[Satan-]

Do you have any tips, on using Marth's tips, and spacing tools?
I used custom!Marth. o: tho

Hmm.. I'm not exactly the best person to ask for tips. I would say just memorize your tipper ranges, go as deep as possible for your edge guards and learn all the known combo strings.

Also watch or play Marth's better than you and see what they are doing and try to incorporate it into your gameplay.

IDK, the reason I don't talk about d-tilt much is because back in Brawl days, I made a point to talk about how amazing it is. I figured it was common knowledge now years later. but Satan if you want..i could go ape **** about how awesome it is like I did 5 years ago.

Please do Emblem Lord-san :]


Also I played Nakat on stream today and ended up beating him 2-1. I lost first game to his Falcon and then beat him the next to games against his Megaman and Mario. Honestly I didn't play as good as usual considering I was on stream and stuff <.< inb4nojohns
If you want to see it you can find it here http://www.twitch.tv/nakat973/b/584684283


I don't know how to link exact times since I'm a twitch noob but it's at 116 minutes. Was going to post this in the video thread too but I need to know how to link exact times. Someone help?

 

[Zano]

I think you just add ?t=1h16m

I don't really think he was playing serious after he rapid jabbed a billion times with the same exact result and just wanted to kill you with side b that first game, I don't really have any comments for that match.

His megaman was just going for dairs and he's clearly not playing serious at all since he's doing it literally everytime you were offstage hitting it a grand total of 0 times. You were fishing too hard for kills that first stock too, don't do that, it's free damage for him. Megaman will be behind you after a dash attack most of the time, punish accordingly knowing that instead of trying to grab, you can get a free smash or DB. You also had a ton of opportunities to dair spike his recovery when he was going low, don't be afraid to just ****ing hit him, megaman is boned if you land a hit offstage on him.

third game was more legit and his greed cost him a lot, and him not respecting your range, so good stuff in that game.

 

[Satan-]

I think you just add ?t=1h16m

I don't really think he was playing serious after he rapid jabbed a billion times with the same exact result and just wanted to kill you with side b that first game, I don't really have any comments for that match.

His megaman was just going for dairs and he's clearly not playing serious at all since he's doing it literally everytime you were offstage hitting it a grand total of 0 times. You were fishing too hard for kills that first stock too, don't do that, it's free damage for him. Megaman will be behind you after a dash attack most of the time, punish accordingly knowing that instead of trying to grab, you can get a free smash or DB. You also had a ton of opportunities to dair spike his recovery when he was going low, don't be afraid to just ****ing hit him, megaman is boned if you land a hit offstage on him.

third game was more legit and his greed cost him a lot, and him not respecting your range, so good stuff in that game.

Actually he was about as serious with his Falcon as he was with his Mario. He was bodying people with his Falcon for quite a bit before he played me and was even stating how he was going to change from Mario to Falcon as his gate keeper. He also adapted well to my counter and did jab jab grab. I thinks he was using side B out of desperation cobsidering how close we both were to death.

Second game I was playing very scared. Not like I usually play at all. Like I said, I was playing on stream and didn't want to get 2-0'd at any cost. Especially after that SD, my mind was off the game and I wasn't really thinking. I think he was trying to go for dair because he had no idea how to edge guard Marth when I recover low.

3rd game I know he was trying. Maybe not like he would in tourney but still... I was also a lot more comfortable because I had already won a game already so the fear of getting 2-0'd was gone. Watching game play from the 3rd game and comparing it to game 2 or even 1, you can definitely see the difference.

All in all, I think we both played very sloppy. Had a couple of twitter exchanges after the set and I'll more than likely play him again. This time against his main Ness and maybe Fox.

 

[NAKAT]

Actually he was about as serious with his Falcon as he was with his Mario. He was bodying people with his Falcon for quite a bit before he played me and was even stating how he was going to change from Mario to Falcon as his gate keeper. He also adapted well to my counter and did jab jab grab. I thinks he was using side B out of desperation cobsidering how close we both were to death.

Second game I was playing very scared. Not like I usually play at all. Like I said, I was playing on stream and didn't want to get 2-0'd at any cost. Especially after that SD, my mind was off the game and I wasn't really thinking. I think he was trying to go for dair because he had no idea how to edge guard Marth when I recover low.

3rd game I know he was trying. Maybe not like he would in tourney but still... I was also a lot more comfortable because I had already won a game already so the fear of getting 2-0'd was gone. Watching game play from the 3rd game and comparing it to game 2 or even 1, you can definitely see the difference.

All in all, I think we both played very sloppy. Had a couple of twitter exchanges after the set and I'll more than likely play him again. This time against his main Ness and maybe Fox.

I wonder how the hell my Falcon won and my Mario loss, but I think I was being stupid LMAO. DAMMIT! Oh well ggz.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Cuz Falcon is good and Mario isn't? Also Satan didnt know you lived in NJ. We should play IRL sometime

 

[A2ZOMG]

I wonder how the hell my Falcon won and my Mario loss, but I think I was being stupid LMAO. DAMMIT! Oh well ggz.

Mario is a bottom 5 character...while Falcon is probably within the top 20 or so. And Marth is probably Mario's worst matchup. Probably one of few legit 7/3s in this game.

Please for my sake, lose more with Mario. He deserves both frame data and damage buffs, and this iteration of Mario is the weakest he's ever been.

 

[Satan-]

I wonder how the hell my Falcon won and my Mario loss, but I think I was being stupid LMAO. DAMMIT! Oh well ggz.

Because Falcon is a monster and you got way too greedy with Mario.

GGs tho :]

Cuz Falcon is good and Mario isn't? Also Satan didnt know you lived in NJ. We should play IRL sometime

Actually I do know he lives in NJ... I've seen quite a few tournaments with Nakat, Nairo, Chibo, PK, etc.

Mario is a bottom 5 character...while Falcon is probably within the top 20 or so. And Marth is probably Mario's worst matchup in this game. Probably one of few legit 7/3s in this game.

Please for my sake, lose more with Mario. He deserves both frame data and damage buffs, and this iteration of Mario is the weakest he's ever been.

Damn I wouldn't say he's that bad. Definitelt underwhelming but not bottom 5 IMO...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Because Falcon is a monster and you got way too greedy with Mario.

GGs tho :]

Actually I do know he lives in NJ... I've seen quite a few tournaments with Nakat, Nairo, Chibo, PK, etc.


Damn I wouldn't say he's that bad. Definitelt underwhelming but not bottom 5 IMO...

What situations can Mario have the advantage against people? I really don't think he has a single favorable matchup in this game.

Mario is still crap in midrange and he has to rely on either tricking people into whiffing or mis-spacing to get in. And his damage per hit is some of the lowest in the game.

Not only does his damage per hit suck, Mario actually lacks guaranteed combos that last longer than two hits except against characters with really bad physics.

He's one of the easiest characters in the game to kill, because he has no options against traps when Cape Stalling was nerfed.

He has incredible trouble KOing when none of his aerials can KO, and when he lost Jab canceling to set up his ground game.

So...he's terrible in neutral, he's awful in negative state, and his reward isn't even reliable.

Like, Mario has to hard read you trying to interrupt or jump out of his strings just to do like 23%, which takes him probably 4 attacks to do successfully. Ganondorf gets a read with F-smash and does 25%. Yoshi lands 2 U-airs and also does that much damage.

The sooner people accept Mario is bottom 5, the more likely Nintendo will actually give Mario buffs he might deserve if they get good feedback from the community. The Zelda characters are finally not a joke in this game, and we're getting Mewtwo later. So clearly community interests are something the developers HAVE listened to. So...for my sake, please accept that Mario is objectively bottom 5.

Bottom tier probably goes like this. Mario, Doc, Olimar. It's tier ****ing Mario seriously.

 

[Shaya]

Save having the mario chat in here, perhaps just link some of your posts in the character impressions thread or on the mario boards or something? lol.
#_# Feeling slightly vandalised.

 

[NAKAT]

Mario is good and can handle Marth. Marth should bop Falcon when he is off stage.

Also those Side B's were because I wanted to kill you with it since that move is hype lmfao. I like to have a good time on stream so 80% of the time I am bs'ing around. That Mario game was legit especially since my greedy ass got gimped. I deserved it.

Mario is no where near bottom tier. He is definitely upper mid or bottom of high, but yea this isn't the right place for that.

 

[Shaya]

Mario is good and can handle Marth. Marth should bop Falcon when he is off stage.

Also those Side B's were because I wanted to kill you with it since that move is hype lmfao. I like to have a good time on stream so 80% of the time I am bs'ing around. That Mario game was legit especially since my greedy *** got gimped. I deserved it.

Mario is no where near bottom tier. He is definitely upper mid or bottom of high

Officially, likely, the worst place on Earth to make the assertion, wow. A2 and the Marth boards are going to HAM this together pretty hard if it continues
Personally, I think Mario is alright, but every time I get something specific frame data wise or whatever, I become more disappointed, average again, it shows me. And then most general opinions about and you get this "likely still in the lower regions" feeling, at least without customs I'd agree with that. But heck, surely has enough characters in this game he can call having a fair match up with, but I don't think Marth is one of them (at this stage).

 

[NAKAT]

#P L U M B E R B O Y Z

 

[Shaya]

Anyway, you should be saying hello in the http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669 thread from time to time
Please no full tier list though :>

 

[warionumbah2]

Lucina forums = Ultimate Waifu circle jerk fantasy.

It is sad, confusing, and infuriating all at once.

A post out side of the funny caption thread makingme laugh, good on ya mate you're so right,

 

[Tagxy]

The people perusing there aren't really competitively minded or ready.
It's still just an awakening fan circle.
No matter what I do or say, they just aren't interested in Smash I don't think. It's a shame, because it's going to kill any chance that character has of actually being developed independently or even alongside us. It's a dead end full of seemingly school-aged children who will keep saying "I like Lucina because she can play more aggressively".

What would've been ideal is just that realisation that one is better (which is the case) accompanied by the truth of people having a preference, but otherwise we would be able to work together for just about everything.

I'm sure the Lucina mains with ambitions will just start to use the Marth boards for that purpose. She's still 'fine', she's just like that... 5-10% weaker/harder in every department that matters, except for killing, in which case she's a lot weaker. I'm still playing her a lot, I truly do like the idea of weighted training shoes/clothing, and she fits that purpose amazingly.

"Im from the Marth boards, and Im here to help"

lol, but I understand what your saying and agree, but I dont think its necessarily good or bad its just a right of passage. I think if Marth really is outright better (which I agree with reasonings stated) it's better for them to discover that on their own. With the game as new as it is and with many newly competitive players, "my character is better than yours" regardless of how nicely or logically its put it may be impossible to receive well. Competitive maturity can take time and experience. I think emphasis on their differences and judging their viability independent of each (i.e. lucina has a hard time in this MU because (...) vs lucina is worse than marth at this MU because (...)) will allow for less antagonism, though I understand that might seem frustrating.

Also sup Marth boards. Been seconding this character since melee and the more I hear about him the more I think Ill be doing the same again.

 

[Signia]

snip

There's really no escaping the Mario impressions, is there?