Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[warionumbah2]

What situations can Mario have the advantage against people? I really don't think he has a single favorable matchup in this game.

Mario is still crap in midrange and he has to rely on either tricking people into whiffing or mis-spacing to get in. And his damage per hit is some of the lowest in the game.

Not only does his damage per hit suck, Mario actually lacks guaranteed combos that last longer than two hits except against characters with really bad physics.

He's one of the easiest characters in the game to kill, because he has no options against traps when Cape Stalling was nerfed.

He has incredible trouble KOing when none of his aerials can KO, and when he lost Jab canceling to set up his ground game.

So...he's terrible in neutral, he's awful in negative state, and his reward isn't even reliable.

Like, Mario has to hard read you trying to interrupt or jump out of his strings just to do like 23%, which takes him probably 4 attacks to do successfully. Ganondorf gets a read with F-smash and does 25%. Yoshi lands 2 U-airs and also does that much damage.

The sooner people accept Mario is bottom 5, the more likely Nintendo will actually give Mario buffs he might deserve if they get good feedback from the community. The Zelda characters are finally not a joke in this game, and we're getting Mewtwo later. So clearly community interests are something the developers HAVE listened to. So...for my sake, please accept that Mario is objectively bottom 5.

Bottom tier probably goes like this. Mario, Doc, Olimar. It's tier ****ing Mario seriously.

lol you're very passionate about mario aren't ya.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Mario still my brodie tho.

 

[Pazzo.]

*Challenger Approaches!*

I'm looking to perhaps pick up Marth, so I decided the best place to get advice on his playstyle is here. If you wouldn't mind answering a few questions, I'd be very thankful.

1. When training with Marth, how should I play? Offensive? Defensive? A Mid-Range?

2. What are the best risk/reward Smashes?

3. What are some characters (barring Lucina) that are similar to Marth?

 

[Shaya]

*Challenger Approaches!*

I'm looking to perhaps pick up Marth, so I decided the best place to get advice on his playstyle is here. If you wouldn't mind answering a few questions, I'd be very thankful.

1. When training with Marth, how should I play? Offensive? Defensive? A Mid-Range?

2. What are the best risk/reward Smashes?

3. What are some characters (barring Lucina) that are similar to Marth?

Mid-range play is kinda optimal, but if you don't know the concept, let's just say that Marth in short is a passive aggressive character at his core (he wants to apply pressure all the time, seeing as he has no projectile, he must be using attacks/space control) and wants to do it safely. Take that as you will as being either defensive or offensive.

2. Up Smash oos is great. Fsmash is otherwise very great; it's the fastest start up and lowest cool down smash attack.

3. The Pits.

 

[Negoksai]

I'm not a Marth main but I feel like he will become competitive when there's a c-stick what do you marth freaks think?

 

[Lenus Altair]

Hiya folks. I'm snooping around compiling data on characters, and I heard you had frame data for Marth. Can't seem to find it though. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

 

[Kinslayer]

Hiya folks. I'm snooping around compiling data on characters, and I heard you had frame data for Marth. Can't seem to find it though. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

No we don't or at least I dont believe we.

 

[Shaya]

http://smashboards.com/threads/fabu...me-play-coalition.367397/page-6#post-17854582

 

[Lenus Altair]

Thanks, Shaya! Should help as a point of reference.

 

[Locuan]

Do you guys find the aerial DB1 > another aerial effective? It seems to be more situational than anything in my observations. Maybe I'm utilizing the tool incorrectly.

 

[Zano]

shaya was talking about it in some other thread. aerial db 1 > fair the new double fair

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why would you land with fair is the question.

 

[Shaya]

I really do love that ftilt looking angle that gets frozen in place with the hitlag EL; just screams GOD LIKE
Optimally you'd land with up air or nair, obviously, but eh, fair angles/hitboxes are still a lot more ingrained in my psyche.

DB1 -> aerial isn't some staple thing to rely on. We spent like 2-3 years during Brawl telling people short hop double forward air wasn't some bees-knees ability and it was actually highly punishable by anyone confident in the match up. Tell me how something which has over half a second delay between them cannot be shield dropped (7 frames) dashed to shield (maximum 17 frames, average was 11) and then still have 10 frames or so to do whatever you want. That's the truth of short hop double aerials and to an extent, why it doesn't phase me too much that we cannot short hop double aerial normally.

So yeah, I feel confident in saying it's the new short hop double aerial (or 'fair') because it wasn't that amazing to begin with. But it's still an option and the fact is that DB1 is positive on hit for us (unlike in Brawl), has vertical momentum properties (if it's like brawl, it's animation literally 'pushes' marth upwards, rather than stalling him, just you cannot do the move fast enough to perpetually go upwards), And is a transcended priority option in a game where aerials can be outprioritised by stronger moves :<. Marth isn't meant to wall in this game, as has the loss of shdf shows us, but we're still meant to be god on earth in the air - versatility and all.

DB1 in the air isn't unheard of either, it was used a lot as a vertical staller in the 09-10 meta, and in '13 Salem was using aerial DB1 as a core spacing tool for his Marth in a way that was undoubtedly amazing (Ramin and I both were like "what is this?... it works... [they went even in marth ditto mms]). I never really understood why or how he used it so well (this is pretty serious: something I didn't get about Marth in Brawl), but I deduced it's really how potent Salem was at using vertical stalling tools to place himself in a better position for reactive forward airing/other aerials (much like why we full hop retreating forward air), more inputs, more reactionary skills required, etc etc. Salem showed several of us (neo, myself, ramin, and a few others) that he was probably top 5 Marth in the world yet he never brought it out at tournament.

The ability to be able to strike twice in a jump is why that option is good. People have to adjust and respect that this can happen. "Oh you see Marth use an action in the air?" -dash attack-. Suddenly less appetising and requires more timing/thought from the opponent; the vertical stall could just be the ticket that makes that dash attack whiff too~
Funnily enough, I also refer to whiffing aerials as "you may as well have just jump air dodged, it's actually safer" during the Brawl days, and funnily enough it's actually a thing this game due to being a 30 frame option (when db1 is 33) that only has a 7 frame cool down, you can do all your aerials out of that air dodge in much the same way, and if DB1 wasn't actually positive on hit or a vertical stall, I probably wouldn't be recommending using it.

I also like that I can db1 in the air and fast fall/land without the landing lag of his aerials.
But I know, deep in my heart, that the future of just getting better at Mikeneko forward airs (short hop reactive auto cancelled fair) is where we'll likely still go anyway as the game advances; but the lack of any auto cancel on fair really does destroy us brawl players from just transitioning into using it the same.

 

[Locuan]

@ Shaya
Air-dodges do have more landing lag than after an X or Y aerial correct? Also, what do you mean by DB1 being positive on hit? I do get the vertical stall though as it is easily noticeable.

 

[Shaya]

Air dodge frame data is apparently like this:

3-23: invincible
30: IASA
40: AC-able

Short hop rising air dodge with marth/lucina and note how you will land without air dodge lag.
Marth's short hop is 41 frames in length, while I'm not 100% sure of the air dodge technical data, it was enough of a factual indication for me to be confident in saying it as such.

DB1 in the air/on the ground wasn't "safe". Against unsuspecting/untrained players in the match up, we could abuse db1 shenanigans in the air as some hit confirm combo starter (ramin combo: db1->ff nair-> thing; not even remotely real in Brawl but IS in this game), but anyone who actually knew the match up or whatever would know that they could just hit us first after the db1, and the moment we knew you knew that, we would never db1 you in the air. In Marth dittos, if you db1 someone, expect to get faired right back in the face for free.

So, if I DB1 someone at 0%, they can probably nair me (if its fast), but not so long after its genuinely safe to hit someone with db1 and work with it as a hit confirm.

 

[Locuan]

I'll be playing both Marth and Lucina today in a tournament (online but it's something). I'll try to remember to save the replays and record them.
Customs are allowed, so I do not know how I will do here seeing as I do not know 90% of the casts custom moves. I'm still stuck between using regular dolphin slash or upB3.

 

[_Relapse_]

Hoping that they fix Marth's dagger.

 

[Kinslayer]

Did anyone see the announcement on smash that a character balance and mechanic changes will be made to smash soon?

 

[JaegerEC]

Did anyone see the announcement on smash that a character balance and mechanic changes will be made to smash soon?

Where'd you hear that?

 

[Locuan]

Did anyone see the announcement on smash that a character balance and mechanic changes will be made to smash soon?

I have been told by others, but I have not seen any official notification yet.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hoping that they fix Marth's dagger.

Maybe marth isnt for you

 

[Moydow]

I have been told by others, but I have not seen any official notification yet.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/3ds/axcj/update/index.html

The release of the following update (version 1.0.4) is scheduled for this month.
The release date will be announced on this website, the official Nintendo Twitter account, and the in-game announcements.

Ver. 1.0.4 (scheduled for release November 2014)
- Game balance will be adjusted.
- Other fixes to make the game more enjoyable to play.

※ Players who download the update Ver. 1.0.4 will be unable to play locally with players who do not have the update.
Replays saved with earlier versions (1.0.3 and earlier) cannot be used with ver. 1.0.4.

※ Following the release of this update (1.0.4), downloading of the update 1.0.4 is required in order to play online.

It's the first time they've outright mentioned "game balance" in the release notes, and the fact that it breaks replays implies something significant is being changed.

 

[Kinslayer]

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/3ds/axcj/update/index.html



It's the first time they've outright mentioned "game balance" in the release notes, and the fact that it breaks replays implies something significant is being changed.

It's on your 3ds if you check the update screen by pressing Y on the main menu.

Thanks for the assist Moydow!

 

[JaegerEC]

Oh wow, that's interesting. I do hope some aspects of Marth do get buffed, even though I feel he doesn't need much. I think the only real change I would love to see is just make his Dair slightly less laggy and less narrow for the meteor spike. Otherwise, I think he's fine.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Only changes I feel he truly needs is more hitstun on d-tilt and jab. So more reward for getting a d-tilt so he can get combos afterwards. More hitstun on jab so he doesn't get punished on hit because its a slap in the face. No one should be punished for choosing the correct option.

 

[_Relapse_]

Maybe marth isnt for you

What's wrong with wanting the length of his sword increased?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Because it shows you don't understand the direction the dev team took with this game. Or you don't care and simply want a better experience as a Marth player. Which is just selfish.

Marth's range is not even his problem. If you just want to swing long range normals. There are plenty of characters that let you do that.

Also FYI Marth's range when compared to Brawl is either slightly greater or slightly worse depending on the attack.

Reiterating, his range is not his issue.

 

[_Relapse_]

Because it shows you don't understand the direction the dev team took with this game. Or you don't care and simply want a better experience as a Marth player. Which is just selfish.

Marth's range is not even his problem. If you just want to swing long range normals. There are plenty of characters that let you do that.

Also FYI Marth's range when compared to Brawl is either slightly greater or slightly worse depending on the attack.

Reiterating, his range is not his issue.

Fair enough, my Marth is pants and you obv. top me on experience as a Marth player.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It has nothing to do with skill. Everything to do with understanding.

If a character is nerfed for the greater good of the game, is that not a valid reason for said character to be nerfed? Indeed is it not the ONLY truly valid reason any character to be nerfed?

 

[PK Gaming]

So i'm starting to look into making Marth a secondary. Partly because his playstyle somewhat reminiscent of a certain grey haired protagonist.

How are his matchup against Sheik and Diddy? Far better than Robin, I'm guessing.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Better vs sheik. Worse vs diddy.

Imo of course

 

[_Relapse_]

It has nothing to do with skill. Everything to do with understanding.

If a character is nerfed for the greater good of the game, is that not a valid reason for said character to be nerfed? Indeed is it not the ONLY truly valid reason any character to be nerfed?

By saying that you had more experience it was implied hat you would also have a better understanding than me.

So i'm starting to look into making Marth a secondary. Partly because his playstyle somewhat reminiscent of a certain grey haired protagonist.

How are his matchup against Sheik and Diddy? Far better than Robin, I'm guessing.

Is that the same PK Gaming from Smogon?

 

[Shaya]

All I'd really want out of Marth is an auto cancel added to forward air and neutral air.
That's it.
Maybe down air too, I think he should be able to vary a little on the full hop so he doesn't land with lag.

Marth's forward air auto cancel was frame 24 in Brawl (out of 34 total duration). WANT SOMETHING LIKE THIS SO BAD. I just want to be able to fair and fast fall with out landing lag with a bit more ease. I'm already relatively used to the 37 frame timing to avoid landing lag, but it just feels needlessly restrictive.

I can see and agree with a lot of changes to neutral air, it really was an oppressive-ish move in Brawl that was just too good in every way. But they hit it in every single way rather than just one or two things. An auto cancel after hitbox end like any of the other long duration multi hit aerials (Pikachu's bair, all of pit's multi hit aerials) would sharpen up his CQC aerial pressure by so much, in a non-oppressive way. Otherwise it needs more reward if they're going to keep risk the same, but not by much.

More love on jab would be good. Our fastest option being punishable on hit is pretty meh, but it's been like that 5ever. It would be a really nice quality buff but I think we can manage, it's something that gives Lucina contrasting usability, and I think she deserves it.

 

[Zano]

So everyone stops getting their hopes up.

The changes are what is going to be the current wii u version, which all that has changed to anyone's knowledge is that rosalina got 5 seconds added to luma's downtime, and the known glitches such as everything about yoshi, greninja canceling dair lag with side b, megaman rush cancelling, and tl/link/peach cancelling aerial lag with item pull. I never got confirmation about the Wario thing but besides the slight change to rosa, all the patch did was fix up glitches

 

[Emblem Lord]

If sakurai is being influenced by namco, i expect a patch every 6 months. Not joking

 

[Zano]

future patches are pretty much definite, yeah. Otherwise they wouldn't bother calling these 1.03 or 1.04, implying that further versions will occur. It's just a matter of how drastic it's going to be but we'll see. Not sure if I want Ultra Smash Brothers Wii U 2015 Arcade Edition

 

[Emblem Lord]

Which is why im not even taking this game super serious anymore. Just gonna do what i can for the marth community.

 

[Shaya]

Dangit EL, all this time I knew you were just looking for a reason to say that <3

We'll see what happens. I would ultimately be upset if they decided to do frequent updating/rebalancing. Getting rid of bugs is cool, fine tuning some obnoxious character mechanics can be cool (Luma, Aura, Rage, deleting Sheik), some minor changes to rolls to not be so freedom.

But if they're going to... change character frame data, heavily mangle designs, or just be knee-jerk nerf cycle response... gah.

Expecting a WiiU update was kinda normal, putting the 3DS version in line with 3-4 months extra development of the WiiU version makes a lot of sense. I don't think version numbers mean jack all for intentions.

 

[PK Gaming]

Better vs sheik. Worse vs diddy.

Imo of course

Wait, are you sure? Robin versus Diddy is pretty miserable.

By saying that you had more experience it was implied hat you would also have a better understanding than me.




Is that the same PK Gaming from Smogon?

The one and only

 

[Zano]

nairo has gotten better at the MU since then and it was his first time fighting diddy, not really a valid source of info considering the difficulty barrier between the characters.