Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Shaya]

Yeah, okay, it isn't insanity. Down throw seems to be a much better combo throw all of a sudden.

HEYYYYYYY THERE

I'm getting down throw -> uair coming up as a true combo on himself up until 80%!

 

[Kinslayer]

Did anyone ever test to see what percent up air combo'd into things til prior to this patch?

I just got untippered uair to tipper uair comboing at 110% for a kill off the top at 130%. Combos into back air too at around this time (training mode combo).

Down throw uair comboing at 0%?
Frame perfect down throw up smash at 0% too?

Forward throw -> fair seems a lot more reliable and comboing properly up until 30%ish?

I never bothered to test any of this stuff before, but I'm hearing knockback changes are pretty common while other changes aren't too much (haven't been able to spot anything frame data / damage wise)

Shaya, Eternalflame, Emblemlord, and all my other Marth brothers and sisters.... They buffed our mutha****in jab hitbox! Before where people could crouch under it they can't any more. The animation starts from around toes then goes up now.

 

[Shaya]

All of his animation arcs usually show it coming from really low and hitbox doesn't necessarily start by then. Jab definitely did hit people low to the ground already.

 

[Kinslayer]

All of his animation arcs usually show it coming from really low and hitbox doesn't necessarily start by then. Jab definitely did hit people low to the ground already.

I don't think it was this low because I remember d tilt from kirby and even Mac having them whiff

 

[Shaya]

So yeah, down throw up air, wooh.

You can go for a back air instead, and it's easy to untip it, and although I don't think you can land with an auto cancel into a guaranteed follow up, I think the over all positional advantage with can lead to an easy up tilt/upsmash, or even another up air or grab reset.

Will have to test around...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Im hitting lucina true combo till like 100%. Which is a tad ridiculous but eh so be it.

 

[Kinslayer]

So yeah, down throw up air, wooh.

You can go for a back air instead, and it's easy to untip it, and although I don't think you can land with an auto cancel into a guaranteed follow up, I think the over all positional advantage with can lead to an easy up tilt/upsmash, or even another up air or grab reset.

Will have to test around...

I was trying it and I think that it might just be a training room things you gentlemen are getting. I tried it against a Lucina in for glory and it seemed to start missing over 45-50% and by missing I mean she was able to air dodge it.

 

[Shaya]

I just realised I was testing this and I was hitting with the uair hitbox behind him (i.e. later), LOL, whoops, turning around possibly makes it combo even later. Kinda hard to input though (if you press jump it'll out prioritise buffering a turn around input, so you gotta choose timing it properly basically :<)

Back air hits higher than up air, and I'm pretty sure you can get down throw to back air at higher percent than you can uair because of this.

 

[PK Gaming]

This down throw change is super duper slick and I love it

This (along with nerfs to the top tiers) was just Marth needed to even the odds

 

[Luigi player]

Yeah, okay, it isn't insanity. Down throw seems to be a much better combo throw all of a sudden.

HEYYYYYYY THERE

I'm getting down throw -> uair coming up as a true combo on himself up until 80%!

I dunno what u were doin all the time cuz I did dthrow to uair stuff before the patch and now it still doesn't seem like a true combo even on a cpu that doesn't do anything. (Charizard in training mode)

 

[Shaya]

I did down throw up air stuff, but the throw itself was laggy, most characters could act before you even started jumping.
The throw could still just be too laggy for the heavy characters?

Testing it out against attacking level 9 CPUs, then comparing to how they act in relation to diddy kong's down throw, and i'm able to get stuff reliably before air dodging becomes a "reality" up until 40-50%, while Marth is up to 30-40%.

I think this will be noticeably potent against real opponents in non-laggy scenarios.

I'm pretty sure I can full hop after a down throw and still be relatively close to my opponent nearly all the time, not needing to expend the double jump just to reach people welll after hit stun is over.

 

[warionumbah2]

Dude im getting VERY consistent dthrow to uair combos now. I dont think it was like this before. I would have abused it otherwise.

it wasn't best I could do is at low percents and also certain characters.then I use Marth speed walking to follow my opponent then juggle them with u tilt.

 

[Foodies]

I used dthrow uair before the patch and it only worked some of the time on real people. Just tested it now with a friend and it seems dependent on the character's weight - it works better on lighter characters. Bowser was able to airdodge out of it at 0%. Unfortunately I don't remember what characters it seemed to work on before the patch, so I can't say if anything changed or not with the patch.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Side taunt makes more sense, since he's swinging his blade in a flashy manner.

But he puts the sword away in that one. the down taunt as it is now translated says something similar to "Everybody, watch me" Like he is about to start fighting. "Lets dance!" would also imply he is going to start fighting.

Dude im getting VERY consistent dthrow to uair combos now. I dont think it was like this before. I would have abused it otherwise.

Down throw>bair>fair can also some times work. If you are lucky you can also add in a f tilt at the end. All of the moves besides the throw should hit at the tip.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Dude im getting VERY consistent dthrow to uair combos now. I dont think it was like this before. I would have abused it otherwise.

Down throw>bair>fair can also some times work. If you are lucky you can also add in a f tilt at the end. All of the moves besides the throw should hit at the tip.

Edit: Sorry for double post!

 

[Zano]

Did Lucina get a range boost? Or at least on her fsmash, because I remember before she couldn't hit anyone on BF with her fsmash if they were on a platform but I did it just now.

 

[Random4811]

I've literally found the best thing ever.

This channel is full of them. Anyway, @ Shaya when you say true combo, do you mean that Training is recognizing it as a combo, or the opponent just isn't able to act in time. Just curious, the difference between the two is small and unnoticeable.

 

[Shaya]

True combo is training mode registration in "reasonable" ways (grab releases / pummels continue to count) / I know they cannot act in time.

Either way, it seems dthrow/fthrow apparently aren't different, just somehow up air never seemed to reliably combo out of it until now (probably in part due to not bothering: fthrow/upthrow/pummel release was superior even at 0%, haha).

 

[Random4811]

True combo is training mode registration in "reasonable" ways (grab releases / pummels continue to count) / I know they cannot act in time.

Either way, it seems dthrow/fthrow apparently aren't different, just somehow up air never seemed to reliably combo out of it until now (probably in part due to not bothering: fthrow/upthrow/pummel release was superior even at 0%, haha).

I think until we have official video comparison, that we won't truly know. But, if they haven't changed, then has Uair changed? If neither, then is this truly some great oversight by our community?

 

[Shaya]

Eh, just from my personal experiences thus far, down throw at 0% into uair didn't even combo on most people, I haven't had it whiff/air dodge in this patch; but yeah, could just be confirmation bias.

Doubt uairs been changed, frame outs/landing lag at least haven't changed.

 

[PK Gaming]

It's ok, Marth is still stylish and beautiful™

 

[Shaya]

I'm just going to forward throw to fair even more confidently; I was doing so before, now I know I should be getting it at 0%

 

[Zano]

what crackhead even mentioned fthrow can be combo'd out of, like, you throw them halfway across the stage, you don't follow that **** up in a true combo

 

[Shaya]

Nah mate, trust.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's basically a frame perfect link but yes it does combo. f-throw to fair at zero is true. Heck its true even beyond that. Up to like 20% for alot of chars. Vectoring of course effects this bit its good to know.

We will all be way more consistent on the Wii U version. I'm confident of that.

 

[Locuan]

It's basically a frame perfect link but yes it does combo. f-throw to fair at zero is true. Heck its true even beyond that. Up to like 20% for alot of chars. Vectoring of course effects this bit its good to know.

We will all be way more consistent on the Wii U version. I'm confident of that.

Do you know if Lucina's height affects the possibility of Lucina performing the combo?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Seems as consistent as Marth.

 

[Locuan]

Seems as consistent as Marth.

Cool, I'll test it out when I get home. However, I think that due to the height difference, it might be possible that Marth can perform the combo at higher percentages than what Lucina can.

 

[Foodies]

Agreeing with Zano on this one. If it's frame perfect without VI, it probably won't true combo with VI. When Marth is at higher %s it's even less likely to work because the throw's knockback will be higher due to rage (not sure if hitstun also scales accordingly, but I'd imagine it doesn''t scale enough). That's not to say it won't be a viable string though - if the opponent doesn't VI or VI's into Marth for some reason (bthrow/fthrow mindgames maybe?) it would be a free hit.

After multiple attempts I can't get it to register as a true combo on Bowser with both characters being at 0%. Rip. Going to say if we do have throw combos they will be character dependent.

 

[Zano]

Nah mate, trust.

last time I trusted you ended in disappointment, we're done.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean the fthrow stuff isnt even where tje hype is at.

 

[Shaya]

Okay it's [seemingly] official, dthrow/fthrow wasn't changed, THE ENGINE WAS CHANGED.

No more vectoring, holding up/away doesn't just completely annihilate Marth's grab game anymore.
Dthrow combos is a thing now because people cannot just hold up!

WE'RE IN THERE TEAM.

 

[Locuan]

Okay it's [seemingly] official, dthrow/fthrow wasn't changed, THE ENGINE WAS CHANGED.

No more vectoring, holding up/away doesn't just completely annihilate Marth's grab game anymore.
Dthrow combos is a thing now because people cannot just hold up!

WE'RE IN THERE TEAM.

Wait wait, no more vectoring? As in vectoring is out completely?

 

[Zano]

cool, now I don't ever have to hear anyone use that term again

 

[Shaya]

Holding up/down/etc doesn't effect knockback anymore it seems.

 

[Locuan]

Excellence, pure excellence. The physicist in me cringed every time I used the term.
On the other hand, it would be weird if it was not replaced by a system that allowed the player to control the trajectory. Any indications of a system like that still being in place?

 

[Shaya]

We still have DI it appears.

 

[Emblem Lord]

DI still exist but its weak.

 

[Locuan]

In order to also follow the current flow of information, where are you guys seeing these updates? In the community patch notes 1.04 thread? The information is flowing rather quickly and one can skip a few things. It'd be great if you guys could point me in the right direction.

EDIT: nvm found it... it is indeed in the 1.04 thread.

 

[Foodies]

That would explain why it seemed easier to follow up throws. But I still don't think dthrow true combos at low %s except on certain characters, just based on the testing I did with a friend after the patch. Whenever the Wii U version comes out we can probably do more testing/compile a list of the characters it does work on. Who knows what having proper controls will do.

Now I have to get used to not holding down for survival anymore.