Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

[SpaceFalcon]

Does anyone know where I can find some accurate info on C.falcons guaranteed % combos?
I know some people will post what they *roughly* know, but I'm looking for accurate info.

 

[NES n00b]

Is there anything people could conceivably punish me by reaction with for not teching besides a jab?
nair/uair/even dair? scary =X
and I've been tinkering lately with dthrow->wavedash forwards instead of uthrow at low %'s. that way I can jab ASAP if they don't tech, grab / shffl knee if they do tech, and regrab if they tech a direction
thoughts?
are there better alternatives?

Dair and knee. Very possible.

Upthrow is better for techchasing people because if they DI away, you have enough time to catch up to where they are through one fox trot.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

Dair and knee. Very possible.

Upthrow is better for techchasing people because if they DI away, you have enough time to catch up to where they are through one fox trot.

This makes sense, but I also think dthrow has less ending lag than upthrow? Also dthrow on spacies to missed tech, to knee, to regrab is the bizness.

 

[Tomacawk]

Does anyone know where I can find some accurate info on C.falcons guaranteed % combos?
I know some people will post what they *roughly* know, but I'm looking for accurate info.

I'll tell you the ones I know for sure
dthrow marth until 30%. then upthrow to nair or uair.
uthrow->dsmash/fsmash on spacies at 90-100% and higher, I believe. Not sure when knee will reliably combo
uthrow->knee on sheik works at like 60-70% I think? Nes n00b just posted it like a page ago and I already forgot.
almost everything can be DI'd at some point. don't disregard what isn't guaranteed, but know what will work on certain DI and know how to cover multiple options
and wtf
shffl knee on a missed tech purely on reaction speed?
I will need to try this.

dthrow has less ending lag than upthrow?

that is why I've started to dthrow->wavedash. you have enough time to do it
also, heavy characters take longer to dthrow. dthrow yoshi. it looks hilarious

 

[Roneblaster]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1-14EWXjC0

yoshi's story is the best map in the game

 

[NES n00b]

Downthrow allows you to move away quicker from the throw (very small amount), but the trade off is they can DI a lot farther away from you.

 

[SpaceFalcon]

I'll tell you the ones I know for sure
dthrow marth until 30%. then upthrow to nair or uair.
uthrow->dsmash/fsmash on spacies at 90-100% and higher, I believe. Not sure when knee will reliably combo
uthrow->knee on sheik works at like 60-70% I think? Nes n00b just posted it like a page ago and I already forgot.
almost everything can be DI'd at some point. don't disregard what isn't guaranteed, but know what will work on certain DI and know how to cover multiple options
and wtf
shffl knee on a missed tech purely on reaction speed?
I will need to try this.

that is why I've started to dthrow->wavedash. you have enough time to do it
also, heavy characters take longer to dthrow. dthrow yoshi. it looks hilarious

Alright thanks, I know everything can be escaped. But I was thinking stuff like grabs mostly.

U-throw combos, I've seen M2K do it in vids with falcon.

Or stomp>grab works well at low percents. (Good example of what I meant with garuanteed combos, cause at a certain % it wont work.)

Probably more.

 

[Tomacawk]

Downthrow allows you to move away quicker from the throw (very small amount), but the trade off is they can DI a lot farther away from you.

Oh I see what you meant now >.>
but it's still legit at low percents, right?
like up until 30s?

 

[NES n00b]

I guess it is ok at low percent, but most of the time it is better to upthrow in case they DI away and at higher percents if they don't DI it leads to stuff.

 

[Tomacawk]

Okay. Thanks.
where the fack is scar and big D lol
I've been wanting to integrate empty short hop approaches on people who like to shield when you chase them to the edge...is this a legit approach? I was thinking I would land, and if they didn't do anything, just grab them
would it be better to just land on their shield with uair, or space bair/nair on their shield? (i'm talking strictly when they're right at the edge)

 

[iamthemicrowave]

True nes noob story:

At event-52 I saw jman, nes noob, and strongbad playing and I jumped into the rotation. I was like sweet now I can get ownd by jman. But nes noob kept beating jman(who was playing falcon sheik and maybe falco)!! and I never got to play him. nes noob falcon punched him in a ditto and jman is like wow you are pretty good whats ur name on the boards. He then left and I never played him LOL

later he beat hazzard, i think in losers. Hazz cpd to stories and ryan turns on the ownage for a nasty match with a 0-death combo...i wish it was recorded **** was so epic.

ryan 2 good

 

[Ryzol_]

Okay. Thanks.
where the fack is scar and big D lol
I've been wanting to integrate empty short hop approaches on people who like to shield when you chase them to the edge...is this a legit approach? I was thinking I would land, and if they didn't do anything, just grab them
would it be better to just land on their shield with uair, or space bair/nair on their shield? (i'm talking strictly when they're right at the edge)

If empty short hop works you get a grab right by the edge. If they predict this you're ****ed.

If you aerial their shield you push them off stage. Depending on how they are facing they will grab the edge or start falling. Potential to shieldstab. You also get shield damage. If they predict this they can't do much because they're right by the edge.

So it depends on what you want, and what risks you can safely take.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

So if they start predicting empty short hop, you empty sh waveland back.

 

[AnDaLe]

there's this picture on how to moonwalk somewhere in the boards. it was pretty helpful when i first learned moonwalk. It was like a shortcut type thing.

 

[Magus420]

Ok, so only uair and knee and when it is appropriate to do those? At around a little over 40 I would upair with no DI. Away DI 50 to mid 60. Keep in mind to always upthrow at that percent. Late 60s to mid 70s knee no matter the DI as it is only time that grab to knee is guaranteed. With away DI after upthrow, falcon can knee for a long time up to like 90 or something. Inward DI after 75 (I think) and no DI at like 80 something ruins knee from upthrow. From downthrow, you can knee at ridiculously high percent without away DI, but yeah don't expect that to work.

If I am wrong guys, let me know.

This is what I came up with for u-throw to knee. DI'ing in actually combos for the longest range. You need to claw the jump button and c-stick though since you need to be holding full back the whole time, and be able to c-stick the knee directly out of jumping or DJing full strength backwards. Away DI doesn't combo at any percent, though for a very wide percent range it's a 50/50 mixup of whether you FJ or SH the knee and the Sheik jumping or not jumping.

[COLOR=#bab0ff]*Ranges listed use damage before throw, and his u-throw doing 7 dmg

[B][U][SIZE=5][COLOR=#7060ff]U-Throw Advantage[/COLOR][/SIZE][/U][/B] [COLOR=Gray](All Characters)[/COLOR]
0-2        +6
3-9        +7
10-16      +8
17-23      +9
24-30      +10
31-36      +11
37-43      +12
44-50      +13
51-57      +14
58-64      +15
65-70      +16
71-77      +17
78-84      +18
85-91      +19
92-98      +20
99-104     +21
105-111    +22
112-118    +23
119-125    +24
126-132    +25
133-138    +26
139-145    +27
146-152    +28
153-159    +29
160-166    +30
...[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#bab0ff][B][U][SIZE=5][COLOR=#7060ff]U-Throw->Knee (Sheik)[/COLOR][/SIZE][/U][/B]

[SIZE=4][B][U][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]DI Behind(Slight)[/COLOR][/U][/B][/SIZE] [COLOR=Gray][90° trajectory][/COLOR]
[SIZE=3][B][COLOR=#ff6000]Total Range(s): 58-114[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]

[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump->Knee [Delay=0 frames/Instant][/COLOR]
58-64      String: -3 (trades with n-air)
65-70      String: -2
71-77      String: -1
78-84      Combo: 0
85-91      Combo: +1
92-96      Combo: +2
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump->Knee [Delay=1 frame][/COLOR]
97-98      Combo: +1
99-103     Combo: +2
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump->Knee [Delay=2][/COLOR]
104        Combo: +1
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump->Knee [Delay=3][/COLOR]
105-108    Combo: +1
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump->Knee [Delay=4][/COLOR]
109-111    Combo: +0
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump->Knee [Delay=5][/COLOR]
112-114    Combo: +0    
115        String: -1 (avoidable with jump)


[SIZE=4][B][U][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]DI Neutral[/COLOR][/U][/B][/SIZE] [COLOR=Gray][85° trajectory][/COLOR]
[SIZE=3][B][COLOR=#ff6000]Total Range(s): 58-116[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]

[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump->Knee [Delay=0 frames/Instant][/COLOR]
58-64      String: -3 (trades with n-air)
65-70      String: -2
71-77      String: -1
78-84      Combo: 0
85-91      Combo: +1
92-97      Combo: +2
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump->Knee [Delay=1 frame][/COLOR]
98         Combo: +1
99-104     Combo: +2
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump->Knee [Delay=2][/COLOR]
105-107    Combo: +2
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump->Knee [Delay=3][/COLOR]
108-109    Combo: +1
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump->Knee [Delay=4][/COLOR]
110-111    Combo: 0
112        Combo: +1
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump->Knee [Delay=5][/COLOR]
113-116    Combo: 0
117        String: -1 (avoidable with jump)


[SIZE=4][B][U][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]DI Behind(Full)[/COLOR][/U][/B][/SIZE] [COLOR=Gray][102.5° trajectory][/COLOR]
[SIZE=3][B][COLOR=#ff6000]Total Range(s): 64-131[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE] [COLOR=Gray](also 133-137; 139-143; 146-148)[/COLOR]

[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump Backwards->Knee [Delay=0 frames/Instant][/COLOR]
58-63      String: -3 (only works if they try to jump since they go too low)
64         String: -3 (trades with n-air)
65-70      String: -2
71-77      String: -1
78-84      Combo: 0
85-91      Combo: +1
92-97      Combo: +2
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump Backwards->Knee [Delay=1 frame][/COLOR]
98         Combo: +1    
99-103     Combo: +2
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump Backwards->Knee [Delay=2][/COLOR]
104        Combo: +1
105-107    Combo: +2
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump Backwards->Knee [Delay=3][/COLOR]
108-111    Combo: +1
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump Backwards->Knee [Delay=4][/COLOR]
112-115    Combo: +1
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump Backwards->Knee [Delay=5][/COLOR]
116-118    Combo: 0
119        Combo: +1
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump Backwards->Knee [Delay=6][/COLOR]
120-121    Combo: 0
[COLOR=#ff6000][I]or[/I][/COLOR]
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump Backwards->Doublejump Backwards [Delay=4]->Knee [Delay=0][/COLOR]
120        Combo: +1
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump Backwards->Doublejump Backwards [Delay=5]->Knee [Delay=0][/COLOR]
121-125    Combo: 0
126        Combo: +1
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump Backwards->Doublejump Backwards [Delay=6]->Knee [Delay=0][/COLOR]
127-131    Combo: 0
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump Backwards->Doublejump Backwards [Delay=7]->Knee [Delay=0][/COLOR]
132        String: -1 (avoidable with jump)
133-137    Combo: 0
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump Backwards->Doublejump Backwards [Delay=8]->Knee [Delay=0][/COLOR]
138        String: -1 (avoidable with jump)
139-143    Combo: 0
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump Backwards->Doublejump Backwards [Delay=9]->Knee [Delay=0][/COLOR]
144-145    String: -1 (avoidable with jump)
146-148    Combo: 0
[COLOR=Gray]Full Jump Backwards->Doublejump Backwards [Delay=10]->Knee [Delay=0][/COLOR]
149        String: -1 (avoidable with jump)


[SIZE=4][B][U][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]DI Away(Full)[/COLOR][/U][/B][/SIZE] [COLOR=Gray][67.5° trajectory][/COLOR]
[SIZE=3][B][COLOR=#ff6000]Total Range(s): NONE[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE] [COLOR=Gray](doesn't combo)[/COLOR]

FJ knee will hit if they DJ but miss if they don't.
SH knee will hit if they don't DJ but miss if they do.[/COLOR]

 

[HiIH]

NES Noob is too legit to quit.

(unless it's Link)

 

[Mogwai]

Every time Magus posts it's like Christmas morning.

th is

 

[Magus420]

...lol

 

[Roneblaster]

Magus, why are you so amazing?

 

[-ACE-]

Magus, every time you post a .gif I'm in awe lol

 

[NES n00b]

Thanks for the info Magus. I was just doing the in DI wrong at mid percents I guess.

 

[xXx-NoobKing-xXx]

lol, magus. <3

 

[KAOSTAR]

told you guys it was sex lol.

I just cant stop looking

Magus *****

 

[Ryzol_]

I just want to make sure I understand the numbers posted. Does Combo +1 mean you can be off by 1 frame and it will combo? Does Combo +0 mean you have to be frame perfect to combo? Does String -X mean they are out of hitstun for X frames, so you can't combo them? Does uthrow advantage +numbers show how many total frames of hitstun they are in?

Also, what's up with jiggs crouch? Most of the time I can't grab a crouching jiggs, but sometimes I can. Why?

 

[Magus420]

Yeah, "Combo: 0" means if timed perfectly it connects on the last stun frame, "String: -1" means they have 1 frame to act (the frame the knee hits), etc. At the lower ranges you hit with the lower part of the knee when full jumping it, so even though they may have 2 frames to act they can't do anything about the knee since a jump would just have them get hit by the top of the knee instead. String: -1 is avoidable with a jump at the higher ranges though since you're hitting with the top of the knee in those cases.

U-throw advantage shows how many frames you can act while they're still stunned. When you don't need to move before jumping into the knee, you can see it starts true comboing (would register in training mode) at 78% which gives +18, since his jump is 4 startup and the knee comes out on 14.


Note that the advantage table applies to every character and not just Sheik, since the speed of his u-throw animation is unaffected by weight (d-throw however is which is why it sucks on heavies), and throw knockback/stun is unaffected by weight as well. +10 advantage allows u-air to combo (4 jump & hit on 6) as long as you don't need to dash into it and they are close enough. The start of the ranges is easier to combo off of since their stun time goes up by 1 while having the least KB.


Jiggs moves around while holding the crouch, and they can poke up and into range of some things during parts of the animation. The very start of the crouch is always at/near its lowest though.

 

[HiIH]

@Magus:

****IN SAVED

 

[The Irish Mafia]

magus
don't ever stop

 

[Juggleguy]

How do you deal with getting dsmashed by Peach or Samus near the ledge at fairly low percents? Not facing the stage makes things stupid.

 

[Strong Badam]

True nes noob story:

At event-52 I saw jman, nes noob, and strongbad playing and I jumped into the rotation. I was like sweet now I can get ownd by jman. But nes noob kept beating jman(who was playing falcon sheik and maybe falco)!! and I never got to play him. nes noob falcon punched him in a ditto and jman is like wow you are pretty good whats ur name on the boards. He then left and I never played him LOL

later he beat hazzard, i think in losers. Hazz cpd to stories and ryan turns on the ownage for a nasty match with a 0-death combo...i wish it was recorded **** was so epic.

ryan 2 good

whoa someone said my name what up
yea i just got owned by nes noob over and over and then i was confused that jman wasn't ****** him before i realized he wasn't using fox
i'm surprised you remembered me i'm not very memorable

EDIT: Magus is amazing.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

peaches' dsmash is the best move in the game and even if you tech it 3 times in a row you will still die because she's broken

the trick is to DI it up, so you get hit into the center of the stage. if she's right on the edge and dsmashing, you can go over or walltechjump-bair, if you want to be supercool and get her the hell away
I dunno about spamus, though, try just hitting her with the upb or something

 

[Stratford]

Lol uthrow knee on Sheik at 148%

 

[Ndot]

The game says its a 2 hit combo! Legit. lol

 

[Ryzol_]

How do you deal with getting dsmashed by Peach or Samus near the ledge at fairly low percents? Not facing the stage makes things stupid.

You can DI the 1st hit down and then immediately DI the 2nd hit up. This sends you towards the middle of the stage but you take more damage. Be extra careful when doing this against Peach because if you aren't fast enough you will eat multiple hits.

 

[TresChikon]

How do you deal with getting dsmashed by Peach or Samus near the ledge at fairly low percents? Not facing the stage makes things stupid.

Just hold down, you'll fly off at fairly high percents instead.

 

[victra♥]

lol magus.

seriously

 

[Proverbs]

Raptor boost should come out in one frame, have the highest priority possible, go through shields, have no ending lag regardless of whether or not you hit, and have as much hitstun as Ganon's d-air. All in favor?

 

[The Official]

Can this be done as Falcon vs Falco? Which direction do you have to ASDI and SDI to do this? I know ASDI is with the c-stick and i assume it's to the opposite way your facing. But what about the SDI? I saw it in the Ganon Boards and had to ask. I assume it's possible with Falcon, but i just wanted to be sure. Also, if you do this the first shine, can you grab the Falco if he jumps out the shine into an aerial? or would you get hit?

Magus do you think you could make another one of these Gif's with falcon? I know its the same thing but, it would just be better to visualize.

 

[Proverbs]

^Lol. This kid's first post is too legit.

 

[Afro_Chris]

^no way thats a noobs first post....thats way to techy for someone to just started to post about

 

[Strong Badam]

(**** GIFs)
Can this be done as Falcon vs Falco? Which direction do you have to ASDI and SDI to do this? I know ASDI is with the c-stick and i assume it's to the opposite way your facing. But what about the SDI? I saw it in the Ganon Boards and had to ask. I assume it's possible with Falcon, but i just wanted to be sure. Also, if you do this the first shine, can you grab the Falco if he jumps out the shine into an aerial? or would you get hit?

Magus do you think you could make another one of these Gif's with falcon? I know its the same thing but, it would just be better to visualize.

falcon's grab frame data is the same as ganon's (grabs on frames 7-8), so yes, it would work.

if Falco does an aerial it depends.... if he does it as fast as possible...... lemme think... falco's jump takes 6 frames (& it takes 2 or 3 frames to jump out of a shine iirc), nair/bair both come out on frame 4 and Dair comes out on frame 5.... and shine has 8 frames of shield stun. 8+7 = 15 - 4 frames due to both characters being in hitlag from the shine = 11 frames for falcon to grab after the shine if I'm correct.
falco takes 6+2 or 3+4 = 12 or 13 frames to perform a nair/bair.
this means with perfect timing for both players, falcon can indeed grab after a shine unless Falco jc grabs, multishines, or wd's after the shine.
buffering a roll is a lot easier, though.

good luck against a Fox pulling this business, though.