Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Rhubarbo]

But is Sakurai loyal to fans or money ? I think Brawl would have literally sold the same if they kept the gameplay the way it was in Melee. Granted they should have removed things like wavedashing (**** ONLY LET US AIR DODGE ONCE THOUGH!) and other minor ATs. Should we petition for a patch that changes hit-stun or at least adds a Melee mode in Special Brawl? Honestly, they should have had that in the original package, a mode where you can play Melee with the new stages, characters, and online.

 

[Pink Reaper]

here is the problem with this. lets say you:

1) actually figure out what hex code you need to edit to get the desired effects you want, for example: longer initial dash, increased hitstun for certain moves

2) edit it and get the desired effect

I suspect this is something that youd have to do for every single character in the game. It would be a laborious mod which most people won't know how to/be able to do. So you'd have to automate it for them.

I supose you could write a program that will patch any valid dump of the Brawl iso.

Or you could just distribute the modified iso yourself, which is illegal.

If someone wanted to use your modified copy of brawl they would need to have a modded wii.

The current exploit that lets people run modified games is the Trucha Signer exploit, which is what people used to create those DVD5 versions of Japanese Brawl that had the movies removed so it'd fit on a normal single layer DVD-R.

The most recent Wii System Update has introduced a means to render this exploit useless. It hasn't been implemented yet, but I'm sure the disc channel will get an update sometime to use it, otherwise why make it?

For this mod to be any useful you'd want it to essentially replace what people are playing on instead. There are too many obstacles keeping it from becoming widespread. People won't want to mod their wiis, and in a few months or sooner, your mod will be invalid because of Nintendo's system updates. It's either take Brawl as it is or petition for someone to fix the stuff in Brawl that some people want changed. The problem there is that even among the competitive community, I don't think most people care, not yet at least. Personally the only things I'd do are:

1) remove tripping
2) increase hitstun so you can freaking combo
3) maybe increase initial dash distance, so you can dash dance again, and make it so you can shield during initial dash.

I wouldn't mind setting up a website telling Sakurai what a jerkoff he is tho. He really should know that hes pissed some people off, even if they are a minority. Said people were probably the most loyal ones to his franchise too. Whatever.

You realize it would just be easier to turn on High Gravity right? You can't make dash dancing any more effective but the decreased knockback at lower damages allow for actual combo's. Its easier than haking the game >.>

 

[RaptorHawk]

Gladly, in Melee can kirby CC in to an efective d-smash? answer is no. can pikachu or zelda, wavedash into aneffective attack that can kill? no. Samus and Peach got nerfed, not because of the speed of the game, nor the loss of combos, but no CC and a cheap d-smash ended their spree. Ness couldn't f-air cancel to a f-smash as good as marth or even edgeguard like him can he? nope. without those certain AT's, the characters i listed get out of low/bottom tier, into mid/high.

Dunno much about kirby, but even if he can't, the existence of AT are not the reasons he was a poor character

Pikachu can definitely wavedash into an attack that can kill. Wavedashing out of shield into u-smash works great.

Samus's nerf has basically nothing to do with the lack of CC. Abuse of Samu's CC though helpful was not necessary to be a good samus. And since were talking about characters without certain AT..... Samus is nowhere near as good without wavedash.

The fact that peach's d-smash isn't as good and that she can't float cancel is what nerfed her.

And uh....Ness wouldnt be able to edgeguard as good as Marth even without AT's.

 

[Rhubarbo]

If only there was a Special Brawl called like...Super Stun mode...Nah, hit stun for most moves would probably be like 3 seconds !

 

[D20]

If only there was a Special Brawl called like...Super Stun mode...Nah, hit stun for most moves would probably be like 3 seconds !

How about a mode called "Super Smash Brothers Melee for the Nintendo Gamecube".

 

[DRaGZ]

Okay, I've been playing with heavy Gravity on...and here's what I've been getting so far (it's only been for like an hour)

1. Edgeguarding actually works.
2. Toon Link's up+B is severely hindered, and it only seems to work close as normal when you do it right after you second jump since it uses the momentum of that jump.
3. Spamming is much, much more punishable, especially if you do attacks that barely lift an opponent off the ground and force them to land (the landing lag acts like some kind of hit stun).
4. I haven't seen any characters which have had their recoveries severely gimped other than Wario (the bike is no longer a great recovery).

I'll continue testing.

P.S. Also, with Toon Link, there's a really weird thing where you are literally stuck in mid-air for about two seconds if you do down+A at a certain time. It's not like in the regular Brawl where he's still hovering a bit, it's almost as if he's stuck.

 

[popsofctown]

Well, i read all the important parts of this thread, now. I read everything with double asterisks, some without. Here is my *intelligent* opinion.

Just because Brawl is less competitive than Melee doesn't mean it couldn't ever have great tourney play later on. Wait! Don't scream! I have proof!

Something I learned in math is the law of large numbers. The law of large numbers explains that the larger a sample of random numbers is, the closer it's mean will be to its own true mean.
For example, if i spam the numpad now:
9 8 4 9
2 1 6 5 4 6 1 6 4 7 9 8 4 6 5 1 4 3 2 6 8
Now let me count it up.
The first set had an average of 7.5. The second, 4.7.
The true mean was 5 (i just used the square 1-9 of my pad).
That was extremely unscientific but that is how it actually works in practice.

Brawl does have ugly random variables in it. Especially ugly tripping. ugh. But those average out as you play more matches, or simply longer matches with more stock.

The more matches two people play, from 1, to best out of 3, to best out of 7, the odds the truly better player will win is higher. So brawl should be played as such.

In the real world, competitive games that rely on the law of large numbers are actually more popular!! Strange isn't it? But it is true.

Track is nearly immune to the rule of large numbers, completely immune actually. The best guy wins nearly every time. They can run 40 meters in a few seconds and figure who's actually the best (if the game needed law of large numbers help, they would spend longer). That's actually probably why they added the &field, so it could be a slew of short events. No one watches track. You could argue that people want to run track, but, no not really. More people try out for basketball or wish they were tall enough to than run track. Also, remember that people tend to play the games they love to watch. To be honest, gymnastics looks a heck of a lot funner than soccer to me, but, no one watches gymnastics. Bowling is an even better example, many many people enjoy bowling greatly, but they hate to watch it. And its competitive play barely makes ESPN2.

Basketball is an immensely popular sport. It relies on law of large numbers a ton. A ton. That is why the game is long, among other reasons, the game needs a longer block of time to determine who is really better. (in a blow to my own argument, there is a gray area where teams trade-off, even though one is slightly better than another. There aren't enough hours in a day.)

I know, i know that longer games are impractical. But if they are suffered, the rewards could be pretty good.
I hope at the very least my argument is enough to convince you that 3 stock was ok for you're melee matches but 4 stock would be better next time you play a brawl. At least that much. Those are guessy numbers by the way.

P.S. But if projectile camping isn't figured out/stopped, there is no hope of life.
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On a separate line of thought:

I have four hypathetical setting-based cures for Brawl:

For projectile spam-
I feel pretty confident that there is some way to make some good tourney stages that ruin projectile spam. Probably just by being clever.
For projectile spam-
If it takes more than being clever, if it takes really clever, tourneys could consider rewarding land control. I've noticed since old smash, if one player is closer than you to 3/4 of the stage, and there is any items on, you are at a disadvantage.
I know items are bad, but i think they could be a swallowable pill to get rid of projectile spam. It could be food on low, maybe even mr. saturn on low, I don't know. But with that, you could force a player to approach if he isn't controlling most of the stage.
You could also design maps that make it easy for non-ranged characters to control land.
For combos-
Maybe good use of create-a-stage could help with this. Use of walls and ceilings could reduce escape opportunities couldn't it? Although, Ukemis can be good stuff. I'm just throwing it out there.
For combos-
It is indeed harder to punish in this game. But maybe 2v2, an ignored game, often, could help. The second player can follow up lots of things. With two players combing, new technique possibilities are endless.

I'm done talking.

 

[Shai Hulud]

What the **** are ukemis?

 

[DRaGZ]

Oh man...with Heavy Gravity, approaching via a short-hopped aerial is viable! It's actually possible to fake someone out into thinking you're doing a dash attack and then go with a RAR or a regular short-hopped aerial because they're both very fast with the Heavy Gravity on.

What's more, is that if it's an attack that knocks the opponent off of their feet, and it's at low percentages, it actually allows for you to follow up with a combo because the high gravity throw them back onto the floor and puts them in the "slammed into floor" state, which is sort of acting like a hit stun.

Okay, for instance, I'm screwing around with Wolf right now, and he's basically got three really good options for approach; dash attack, which throws up the opponent just enough for him to land immediately and cause more damage, his fair, which is strong enough to do the same thing, and his bair, which is great for knocking him away or, at the very start of a match, do the same thing as the first three.

I think Heavy Gravity is interesting here...

EDIT: OMG, when you walk into the Halberd's laser, it DOESN'T RACK UP DAMAGE. It sort of just knocks the opponent away slightly, like a small nudge, and it does like 3% damage. This is amazing!

EDIT: OMG, another awesome thing, you can shorthop + airdodge over a spammy Toon Link to get behind him and smack him as he's caught up in a spam-storm. It's fast enough to actually work! HOLY ****.

 

[popsofctown]

teching into a wall or floor... i don't know where i picked up that word for it.

 

[DRaGZ]

More Heavy Gravity stuff:

Multi-jump characters are seriously hampered. I'm talking Pit, Metaknight, Charizard, Jigglypuff, Kirby, DeDeDe, etc. Snake and R.O.B., who use a "hover" dealie to recover, aren't hampered in the least, but Pit is because his initial start-up of his Up+B seems to be dependent on gravity, but afterwards it's flawless.

But more importantly...YOU CAN APPROACH CAMPERS. Omg, this is amazing. I'm gonna fiddle with this as much as I can and see how this turns out...

EDIT: OMG, I just 0-106% with Game and Watch against a campy Wolf: approached with b-air, followed up with some natural A combo, a few d-tilts, and a chair. Jesus Christ this is amazing.

EDIT: Lucas can slide across the floor with his d-air, I mean nearly horizontally. It's just a short-hop to d-air, and it's a beastly approach.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Ukemi=Tech

 

[LOL_Master]

ukemi does equal tech

 

[Papapaint]

More Heavy Gravity stuff:

Multi-jump characters are seriously hampered. I'm talking Pit, Metaknight, Charizard, Jigglypuff, Kirby, DeDeDe, etc. Snake and R.O.B., who use a "hover" dealie to recover, aren't hampered in the least, but Pit is because his initial start-up of his Up+B seems to be dependent on gravity, but afterwards it's flawless.

But more importantly...YOU CAN APPROACH CAMPERS. Omg, this is amazing. I'm gonna fiddle with this as much as I can and see how this turns out...

EDIT: OMG, I just 0-106% with Game and Watch against a campy Wolf: approached with b-air, followed up with some natural A combo, a few d-tilts, and a chair. Jesus Christ this is amazing.

EDIT: Lucas can slide across the floor with his d-air, I mean nearly horizontally. It's just a short-hop to d-air, and it's a beastly approach.

To be honest, changing gravity settings for competitive play is reasonable.

Halo 3 has a damage modifier. This would definitely be the most drastic change in competitive videogaming, but not the first.

 

[Papapaint]

kay...

after some testing, high grav mode...

ROCKS.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

wow after your enthusiasm i'll have to give it a shot.

 

[Papapaint]

wow after your enthusiasm i'll have to give it a shot.

Seriously.

I've been playing melee the past few days, preferring it to brawl. Heavy grav brawl feels like an improved melee in many ways. Combos exist, techs work, the auto-sweetspot is now BOTH a weapon and a recovery aid instead of simply the latter. There's a decent balance between aggressive and defensive play... I approve.

 

[M.K]

I just laugh at the inhumane oppurtunity to recreate Melee in Brawl. It's like being in denial over something that is easily adjusted to. It's almost sickening, if someone like ME, who has never and will never be the most competitive person, can get used to Brawl, then so can you. I believe that the competitive community is not putting forth the correct and viable effort to adjust to Brawl, rather taking to the whiny bull**** that appears in a new thread ever hour. This, the time period of adjusting, is what will REALLY define the true competitive persona from the Melee hugger.

 

[Papapaint]

I just laugh at the inhumane oppurtunity to recreate Melee in Brawl. It's like being in denial over something that is easily adjusted to. It's almost sickening, if someone like ME, who has never and will never be the most competitive person, can get used to Brawl, then so can you. I believe that the competitive community is not putting forth the correct and viable effort to adjust to Brawl, rather taking to the whiny bull**** that appears in a new thread ever hour. This, the time period of adjusting, is what will REALLY define the true competitive persona from the Melee hugger.

Admit it. You didn't read the thread.

Here, i'll illustrate. Here's the point of this thread: .












Here's you: .



See how you're missing the point?

 

[M.K]

Admit it. You didn't read the thread.

Here, i'll illustrate. Here's the point of this thread: .












Here's you: .



See how you're missing the point?

Despite the rudeness of this reply, I can't help but give my view on the Melee vs. Brawl topic. I have given an intelligent post, and it wasn't responded to in kind. Thanks. Don't think of yourself as someone who can delegate such actions as if you know how I operate. You don't, I am merely giving my point.

 

[Papapaint]

Despite the rudeness of this reply, I can't help but give my view on the Melee vs. Brawl topic. I have given an intelligent post, and it wasn't responded to in kind. Thanks. Don't think of yourself as someone who can delegate such actions as if you know how I operate. You don't, I am merely giving my point.

No. I made the same post you did wayyyyy earlier in the thread, I used past examples of competitive games, and I did it all without insulting melee players.

Your post was a flaming bag of dog ****.

 

[M.K]

No. I made the same post you did wayyyyy earlier in the thread, I used past examples of competitive games, and I did it all without insulting melee players.

Your post was a flaming bag of dog ****.

Good for you, would you like a sticker? Get off your high horse and stop thinking that everyone is inferior to you. By the way, if you made the exact same post earlier, wouldn't YOU have been way off the point in the first place? When did I insult Melee players? Unless you have some sort of comprehension learning disorder, there is not one instance of bashing in the entire post. I suggest you don't think so highly of yourself, it's not the most appealing quality.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Firstly, don't take this post the wrong way.

I think that a lot of people were crushed to find that Brawl wasn't a Melee 2.0. Initially, I was too. But I've gotten used to the new Brawl physics engine, and I like it, just as well as I did Melees.

I will try the Heavy Gravity mode once I get back to my house (I'm at my grandparents right now) and see if its a good idea, though. If it really does improve the standard of Brawl playing then I'm game.

But keep in mind. This game is NOT Melee 2.0. I'm not asking you to stop being upset about it, but to stop complaining about it.

 

[arrowhead]

meta-kirby, shut up

skyler - we're not upset that it's not melee 2.0. we're upset because they made the game less fun for competitive players

 

[SkylerOcon]

I'm a competitive player and I don't think its any less fun.

I really can't even see how it could be less fun. Tell me why.

 

[Papapaint]

I'm a competitive player and I don't think its any less fun.

I really can't even see how it could be less fun. Tell me why.

Read cactaur's post on competitive fighters.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Good for you, would you like a sticker? Get off your high horse and stop thinking that everyone is inferior to you. By the way, if you made the exact same post earlier, wouldn't YOU have been way off the point in the first place? When did I insult Melee players? Unless you have some sort of comprehension learning disorder, there is not one instance of bashing in the entire post. I suggest you don't think so highly of yourself, it's not the most appealing quality.

I'm ashamed to say that I'm on your side. GTFO, flamer.

 

[arrowhead]

slower gameplay, limited options, and very limited combos. there's less action in brawl and less of the "OHHH S***" moments you always hear at tournaments

 

[SkylerOcon]

Actually, I think with certain characters combos were made easier and lengthier. But I haven't played with everybody yet, so I may have just been playing the wrong people.

And limited options? Err... I need explanation on this as well.

And the gameplay being made slower was to help newer gamers. Mind you, the whole salespitch of the Wii is for newer gamers, young or old, to be able to get into gaming. A slower Smash Bros. will make it easier for newer players to play.

 

[Plairnkk]

Meta-Kirby is an idiot.

 

[Papapaint]

Actually, I think with certain characters combos were made easier and lengthier. But I haven't played with everybody yet, so I may have just been playing the wrong people.

And limited options? Err... I need explanation on this as well.

And the gameplay being made slower was to help newer gamers. Mind you, the whole salespitch of the Wii is for newer gamers, young or old, to be able to get into gaming. A slower Smash Bros. will make it easier for newer players to play.

Go read all of the "important" posts linked from the first post. I'm not saying this to insult you, I'm just saying that almost everything you're asking is answered there. The quick answers:

Any "combo" in brawl is really nothing more than your opponent making terrible decisions. This sounds fine in theory, but a "combo" is a string of moves during which your opponent can not respond due to hitstun. Smash balanced out the combo by making DI a bigger deal than in most fighters.

With "limited options," it's just that there are fewer valid approaches. The floatiness makes any aerial approach predictable and punishable, and the ground approaches are pretty much invalidated by the new shield system.

 

[(*Jman*)]

why are people still talking about this LOL

melee is 100 times better then brawl

LEAVE IT AT THAT

GOD!!! >_>

 

[Papapaint]

why are people still talking about this LOL

melee is 100 times better then brawl

LEAVE IT AT THAT

GOD!!! >_>

A lot of us love brawl.

 

[Lixivium]

Good for you, would you like a sticker? Get off your high horse and stop thinking that everyone is inferior to you. By the way, if you made the exact same post earlier, wouldn't YOU have been way off the point in the first place? When did I insult Melee players? Unless you have some sort of comprehension learning disorder, there is not one instance of bashing in the entire post. I suggest you don't think so highly of yourself, it's not the most appealing quality.

You insult our INTELLIGENCE when you say people trying out Heavy Gravity Brawl are desperately trying to recreate Melee. Why would we try to recreate Melee when we could just PLAY Melee? We want to see if there are aspects about Brawl that might be changed to make it more competitive or more fun to play competitively. This would be no different than a discussion about whether to include certain items or stages. I suggest you get off YOUR high horse and stop chiming in on a discussion that doesn't concern you.

 

[Doctor X]

I'd like to take a moment to point out a sad little bit of irony from the whole "Melee 2.0" thing. The fact that some Melee vets are still somewhat stuck in the Melee mindset could very well be helping Brawl's reception rather than hindering it. The idea of actively approaching your enemy is a remnant of the Melee scene that may very well fade away when people start coming to terms with what really makes Brawl different-- and that is the abundance of defensive options and the scarcity of safe approaches.

The result? Lots of camping that, while it may be fun to play for some, it certainly isn't any fun to watch. So if anything the scrubs should be grateful that people are still stuck in their Melee habits, because once we lose those.... well... you get this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxgOkRyG3ho

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I'm just gonna guess that that's Overswarm vs Jiano. lol

Regarding the change of gravity, it's pretty obvious that it would be worse. It hinders characters more than it helps. How will I autocancel my aerials if I land early T_T

 

[CasshernDGZ]

Oh boy, I posted here earlier about a few pro brawl points, but I suppose it was just ignored, which is really frustrating, so I'll try again.

First of all, I don't believe that Brawl is a campfest. I just think that atm, people find that to be the easiest playing style, so most people tend to adapt to that. I for one try to play aggressively because it has its benefits although it may not seem like it. For one you can actually punish someone in this game, it just depends on how well you predict them, and I suppose you can say that they are just making bad decisions but on the other hand maybe the aggressive player is just doing really well at predicting them..I can further elaborate on my other points, instead of wasting, I want to see my feedback, to see if its actually worth it...>_>

 

[Fletch]

Meta-Kirby is an idiot.

I second this.

 

[Brawler1432]

hey look a ktty

 

[CasshernDGZ]

AHEM................

Ok I've made this point an a few different threads, though I think this is the most important. Brawl Defenders are usually childish, maybe even a child. But it is a stretch to say all brawl supporters are wrong. I myself like both games, I will admit though, I don't play Melee anymore. When I go to a tournament it's a 50/50 chance of being brawl or Melee,but I don't really care which one. To look so close as many competitive players do, I fell is unfair to both games. I myself am a competitive smasher, but I hate being put into the group that will always criticize a smash game, on every detail. I don't like to do that unless it will affect my ability to play the game, I don't do it to come on here and rant about why Melee is better then Brawl or Vise Versa. Also I would like to point out that Brawl has some time to become what Melee is. Next I have a very important point. Brawl the game is better then Melee, I'm sorry for you guys who really are worse at Brawl and try to blame the game for it. Brawl has more features, and not only is it packed on with stuff, it has an easier control. There you have it. Brawl is being blamed for the slight difference that was made to make the game easier to play. It's almost fact that Brawl is a better game, deal with it. If you had a chance to play a casual smash match what game would you chose, it is most likely Brawl.

Brawl is a better game.


Now before you start flaming this with defending opinions,( because it likely that your one of those hard headed people who will make any argument for your game) know this : Melee is a generally accepted better sport. You heard me. Melee is not a better game, it is obsolete compared to brawl. But it seems that by popular vote Melee is a better sport. The competitive players have developed a new way of categorizing a game, congrats. Yes Melee has become a sport, and a strong one at that. One that Brawl has yet to beat. So there you have it. I will continue having fun playing Brawl all the time, and then every month or so play a competitive match f Melee.

I've decided how I will handle this "fork in the road", so how will you?


-Brawler <(^^<)

Wow...Oh boy Brawler..prepared to get flamed for that post >_>....