Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Radical Dreamer]

That's a difficult question to answer, but at the same time, I can say for a fact that a game can be competitive even if it is very unbalanced. How do I know this? Easy. You just look at the history of competitive fighting games. The overwhelming majority of them are really unbalanced. Marvel is the most egregious example of an unbalanced fighting game and it has one of the strongest competitive communities. Super Turbo, Street Fighter 3, and Capcom vs. SNK 2 are all very unbalanced games. The only competitive fighters that stand out as particularly balanced are Guilty Gear and Virtua Fighter. In the case of the former, it's because the developer has made so many revisions, and in the case of the latter, it only applies to the fourth installment and games thereafter. Strangely, these games are actually dying in the United States. As counterintuitive as it may seem, it may even be possible that some imbalance contributes to competitive success.

 

[Aesir]

Sorry, I read my post again and realized I sounded like an ***, but I didn't mean it.

I was just simply trying to use an example to point out this:

How can a game be so competitive if it is so imbalanced?

I am not saying Brawl isn't imbalanced (it very much is), but still can anyone try to answer this for me?

Melee isn't that imbalanced, if thats the case every competitive game is imbalanced. There will always be certain characters that out perform other characters.

However those characters aren't the only viable options, to say they are implies you know next to nothing about melee. >_>

 

[Card]

Sorry I didn't respond to this earlier, but yes, many Melee factors where still prominent in Brawl.

The competitive worth of the demo escalated beyond my expectations. My initial expectations for the Brawl demo were the exact same feeling towards the final product. The fact that the Demo surpassed my expectations is an illogical paradox.

I'm telling you guys, this was all intentional. Perhaps this was the reason behind the delay; they had to edit copies of the came. Congratulations Sakurai, you've successfully derailed the competitive community even though you could have EASILY satisfied the casual community regardless.

I feel betrayal.

Scary thought but...

It just could be that Developers read our Impressions on the Demo and made changes accordingly............ It is a known fact that Nintendo of America is very aware of the community, and secretly lurk many fan-based message boards.

I think I'm gonna be sick.

 

[Brawler1432]

Melee isn't that imbalanced, if thats the case every competitive game is imbalanced. There will always be certain characters that out perform other characters.

However those characters aren't the only viable options, to say they are implies you know next to nothing about melee. >_>

(disturbing sig)

Sorry I didn't respond to this earlier, but yes, many Melee factors where still prominent in Brawl.

The competitive worth of the demo escalated beyond my expectations. My initial expectations for the Brawl demo were the exact same feeling towards the final product. The fact that the Demo surpassed my expectations is an illogical paradox.

I'm telling you guys, this was all intentional. Perhaps this was the reason behind the delay; they had to edit copies of the came. Congratulations Sakurai, you've successfully derailed the competitive community even though you could have EASILY satisfied the casual community regardless.

I feel betrayal.

Sure they delayed so they could lose customers, sounds exactly like nintendo (sarcasm)

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

You can always pick out someone that doesn't really know what they are talking about when it comes to Melee when they list Falco 2nd before Marth and Sheik.

uh... lol. that's pretty funny.

 

[Brawler1432]

You can always pick out someone that doesn't really know what they are talking about when it comes to Melee when they list Falco 2nd before Marth and Sheik.

Scar said that

 

[Magus420]

Seriously? lmao xD

When did he say that?

 

[slikvik]

Scary thought but...

It just could be that Developers read our Impressions on the Demo and made changes accordingly............ It is a known fact that Nintendo of America is very aware of the community, and secretly lurk many fan-based message boards.

I think I'm gonna be sick.

I blame gimpyFish

 

[Brawler1432]

Seriously? lmao xD

When did he say that?

The quote the guys used was of scar, unless he edited it.

I blame gimpyFish

you, sir have a death wish

 

[Kye L]

"D:< You are, and will always be...a nobody"

Wow, dramatic. XD

 

[Shai Hulud]

This definition doesn't really go with Melee. Here, let me give you a better definition if Melee truly is more competitive:

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Any character can win except at the highest levels of competition. At that point generally mid-tier and up are viable. It's only at the very highest levels of competition where Fox, Marth, Shiek, Falco really dominate, levels at which a noob like you would never, ever, ever, have a chance of achieving. I have a friend who mained Mewtwo (MookieRah, perhaps you've heard of him) who could probably 3-4 stock you regardless of character.

You also clearly have no notion of counterpicks. Although I main Fox, if someone takes me to Brinstar I'm pretty much guaranteed to lose if I don't change characters. You can't just play one character and win (unless you're Marth or miles above your competition). Likewise if Marth takes me to FD, I'll probably go ICs. But *gasp*, how could ICs beat Marth?

****ing scrub.

 

[aho43]

i love fox on brinstar.

 

[Shai Hulud]

i love fox on brinstar.

Brinstar ruins me. 60% lava combos

 

[Brawler1432]

I know Fox is one of the only characters I CAN play on brinstar.

 

[LOL_Master]

lolllls, yeah fox on brinstar lollls

 

[ShadowLink84]

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Any character can win except at the highest levels of competition. At that point generally mid-tier and up are viable. It's only at the very highest levels of competition where Fox, Marth, Shiek, Falco really dominate, levels at which a noob like you would never, ever, ever, have a chance of achieving. I have a friend who mained Mewtwo (MookieRah, perhaps you've heard of him) who could probably 3-4 stock you regardless of character.

You also clearly have no notion of counterpicks. Although I main Fox, if someone takes me to Brinstar I'm pretty much guaranteed to lose if I don't change characters. You can't just play one character and win (unless you're Marth or miles above your competition). Likewise if Marth takes me to FD, I'll probably go ICs. But *gasp*, how could ICs beat Marth?

****ing scrub.

For a person that goes around calling other people scrubs, you do a **** good job of behaving the same way.
Respect other peoples and ideas and refute their ideas with your own. Go about telling someone how they are wrong and why not a basic flame fest. No wonder severalpeople of the smash community leave, they can't stand the stupidity that they see.

Treat others with the same level of respect that you demand. Otherwise why should anything that you say be of any importance?

Telling someone that they will never achieve extremely high level of competition like that of Ken and Isai is basically the exact same as being an elitist. No wonder thats been coming up recently, the arrogant behavior that is being shown to them, anyone would think elitist.

Now I am not saying you are elitist. Looking and being are two different things. However, regardless of the fact that you may be intelligent, how you carry yourself really determines if someone even cares to hear what you have to say.

Other than the stupid comments i generally agree with you.

 

[Pink Reaper]

For a person that goes around calling other people scrubs, you do a **** good job of behaving the same way.
Respect other peoples and ideas and refute their ideas with your own. Go about telling someone how they are wrong and why not a basic flame fest. No wonder severalpeople of the smash community leave, they can't stand the stupidity that they see.

Treat others with the same level of respect that you demand. Otherwise why should anything that you say be of any importance?

Telling someone that they will never achieve extremely high level of competition like that of Ken and Isai is basically the exact same as being an elitist. No wonder thats been coming up recently, the arrogant behavior that is being shown to them, anyone would think elitist.

Now I am not saying you are elitist. Looking and being are two different things. However, regardless of the fact that you may be intelligent, how you carry yourself really determines if someone even cares to hear what you have to say.

Other than the stupid comments i generally agree with you.

He's not being elitest. Some jack@ss comes in saying the "No items, Fox only, Final Destination" crap of course he's going to get flamed. Its not an opinion its an insult.

 

[ToastMAN]

zomgs Brawl is sooooo good

i haz not played teh melee but Brawls is sooooooo much beta

melee haz to much glitchez and teh brawl do's nots
111111!!!!

 

[Veil2222]

Pink, he's worse that the ******* for even meriting that with a response, let alone such a flaming one. Including the words scrub and noob certainly doesn't help either, he could have simply said "That's simply not true, it's just a popular idea because it seems that was at a certain level of competition". He didn't have to get all petty and high school and insult the person directly assuming they have and never will be anywhere relevant in a tourney scene, spouting off at the mouth for such a bad reason. It's posts like that from people who are regarded as higher ups on the board in rank that create the idea of elietism. They were both being *******es, don't just automatically stick to his side because you like him, he was still being counter-productive, and perpetuating a really bad image for the community.

I posted this here because my report post button isn't working, and likely would be ignored. If you think someone is stupid or at least has said something stupid, just take the one ounce of restraint it takes to realize trash talking someone, even if they're wrong, is bad for the debate, bad for your image, and bad for the communities image. It's not worth all that just to vent on someone you think is wrong, or stupid, or both.

 

[Shai Hulud]

All right, I'm going to address briefly this idea of elitism:

Elitism is the idea that the "elite" within a particular field have and deserve more respect and power. Calling someone an "elitist" is often used derisively to suggest antiegalitarianism.

Guess what. Competitive games are not egalitarian, BY DEFINITION. That is what makes them COMPETITIVE. Respect and power within any competitive community are based primarily (nearly exclusively) on one's skill in that game, as determined by tournament attendance and placings. That is the only thing that matters. So when some March 2008 joinees who've never been to a tournament in their lives start arguing with people who've been in the community for years, it's natural for us to be a little pissed off, because frankly, you don't know what the f*ck you are talking about. You come in here like children, not knowing what it is that makes you children. You come in here and no one knows who you are, but you are so arrogant that you DEMAND RESPECT, simply because you have graced us with your presence. You come in here and argue with the likes of Mew2King, Plank, Aho, and when your opinion isn't given equal weight you cry "elitism!"

Wakeup time. Competitive communities are elitist communities. That's the nature of the beast. If you want to be a member of the community you gain respect the same way everyone else does, by getting better. This thread is about the competitive viability of two games. Your "everyone's a winner" attitude has no place here. Get that scrub bull**** out of here.

 

[Scar]

Yeah, and that's sort of upsetting for people who are new... but I mean half the fun is working your way up. I agree 100% with Shai... per usual.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Pink, he's worse that the ******* for even meriting that with a response, let alone such a flaming one. Including the words scrub and noob certainly doesn't help either, he could have simply said "That's simply not true, it's just a popular idea because it seems that was at a certain level of competition". He didn't have to get all petty and high school and insult the person directly assuming they have and never will be anywhere relevant in a tourney scene, spouting off at the mouth for such a bad reason. It's posts like that from people who are regarded as higher ups on the board in rank that create the idea of elietism. They were both being *******es, don't just automatically stick to his side because you like him, he was still being counter-productive, and perpetuating a really bad image for the community.

I posted this here because my report post button isn't working, and likely would be ignored. If you think someone is stupid or at least has said something stupid, just take the one ounce of restraint it takes to realize trash talking someone, even if they're wrong, is bad for the debate, bad for your image, and bad for the communities image. It's not worth all that just to vent on someone you think is wrong, or stupid, or both.

Elitism is part of the nature of serious competition. You don't have to show it outwardly, but you have to believe you're part of the elite before you can actually be one of the best. What that guy was saying was pretty **** scrubby, and yes the response was a bit harsh, but not undeserved.

You can't protect the noobs from the truth.

 

[Brawler1432]

zomgs Brawl is sooooo good

i haz not played teh melee but Brawls is sooooooo much beta

melee haz to much glitchez and teh brawl do's nots
111111!!!!

ZOMG I PLAYD BRAWLZ 4 A COUPLE SECS AND THEN WENT BACK TO MELEE, AND REALIZED HOW MUCH BETTA MELEE IS THEN BRAWL, EVEN THOUGH I REALLI HAZN'T TRIED ANYTHING IN BRAWL, OR ANYTHING COMPETIVE STYLE, I HEARD FROMZ THIS ONEZ DUDE THAT I SHOULD HATES DA BRAWLZ, SO YA BRAWLZ SUX1111111111111111111111111111111

 

[ToastMAN]

ZOMG I PLAYD BRAWLZ 4 A COUPLE SECS AND THEN WENT BACK TO MELEE, AND REALIZED HOW MUCH BETTA MELEE IS THEN BRAWL, EVEN THOUGH I REALLI HAZN'T TRIED ANYTHING IN BRAWL, OR ANYTHING COMPETIVE STYLE, I HEARD FROMZ THIS ONEZ DUDE THAT I SHOULD HATES DA BRAWLZ, SO YA BRAWLZ SUX1111111111111111111111111111111

HAHA, im sorry but i had to do that to see what kind of responses i wouldve gotten...

In all honesty, I like brawl, but its to early for it to become as competive as melee IS...

 

[The_Smash_Champ]

I have sad news people, Brawl DID NOT live up to its hipe. You can compare its deepness to a Naruto fighting game. The game is slow, and spamming moves seems to be the best way to win and the game seems to be more broken than ever. Dodging is actually cheap... and stun times have been totally almost removed. Characters are floaty, killing is impossible, and recovering is as easy as running. Getting better at this game is not possible, it just isnt, the moment i thought i got better some idiot who doesnt play beat me by spamming with Zelda.Comboing is gone, sure there are combos, except most of them have to be done cause of luck. I play Melee competitively and in my opinion Brawl is a huge leap back, so far back that its a waste of money to even buy this game. The online lags,and the adventure mode sucks and everything that was fun about melee is gone. SH are like normal jumps in melee, and no more exploits that make each character unique. I hate people who say that melee had "glitches". Its not glitches, this things made each character even. Look at Brawl, its the most broken game ever. Peach-no more float cancels, she now suiks. Fox no shine blinds, he now sucks. Falco shine spikes, gone. CF combos, gone he sucks too. Marth combos, there in but that will not guarantee a win at all.IC's still have chaingrabs, but i think yal forgot they are slow as hell without wavedashing, they still suck.etc... Well smash bros brawl was a huge dissapointment, and i hoppe that everyone who was good at melee to hold on to your games. All the noobs who keep saying to give brawl time, can just keep playing your stupid little game. Keep playing it, the game will not change.
You noobs who enjoy playing brawl can go ahead and play it, remember brawls best techniques! Abuse the C-stick, press B a lot and always hold the shield to shield grab! wait thats all brawls technique...peace out.

 

[LouisLeGros]

TSC, I'm going to guess you were a fellow Captain Falcon user

 

[Brawler1432]

HAHA, im sorry but i had to do that to see what kind of responses i wouldve gotten...

In all honesty, I like brawl, but its to early for it to become as competive as melee IS...

Wow, thats what I've been trying to say for a very long time.

 

[The_Smash_Champ]

TSC, I'm going to guess you were a fellow Captain Falcon user

Yeah and im dissapointed in how much not only the messed him up but every character. Mainly is the physics of the game.

 

[Brawler1432]

You noobs who enjoy playing brawl can go ahead and play it, remember brawls best techniques! Abuse the C-stick, press B a lot and always hold the shield to shield grab! wait thats all brawls technique...peace out.

Are you saying that everyone who plays and enjoys Brawl is a noob.? I thought this was an intelligent discussion, please make intelligent comments.


Also you shouldn't have expected Melee 2.0.

 

[The_Smash_Champ]

Are you saying that everyone who plays and enjoys Brawl is a noob.? I thought this was an intelligent discussion, please make intelligent comments.


Also you shouldn't have expected Melee 2.0.

Lol actually thats what most good players were hoping for. Its intelligent, maybe too much for you to understand.

 

[BlackPanther]

Are you saying that everyone who plays and enjoys Brawl is a noob.? I thought this was an intelligent discussion, please make intelligent comments.


Also you shouldn't have expected Melee 2.0.

Read the sig. You're right Brawl isn't Melee 2.0 but it is indeed a sequel. So it's gonna be compared no matter what. New game or not you still gotta look at the predecessor and see what kind of improvements and what kind of things they ****ed up on. The only real improvements I see on the game is graphics and music and that isn't sayin much since that isn't what makes up the competitive side of the game. On the other hand, things that they ****ed up on:

Physics - This is the one of the biggest things here. The floatiness guarantees for a really slow game meaning not fun to play and not fun to watch. Everyone can come back to the stage with relative ease even bein knocked off the stage at like 120 all you have to do is DI up and towards the stage and you can almost make it without even having to use your second jump. What kind of **** is that for people to be able to easily come back with no effort? That means drawn out matches tryin to kill them at such high percentages.

Airdodging - For starters this should have been left at a one time thing before you get hit again. Now you can do it many times without gettin ****ed which I think is stupid. And you can't control the direction where you want your airdodge to go. Yes it does have in part having to do with wavedashing but also not having full control of your character is not a good feeling. But also another thing of not bein able to control where your airdodge means that since it's based on momentum airdodging back to the stage does not guarantee that you'll make it back safely as your opponent can now accurately predict where you are gonna go and meet up with you at that point of intersect and **** you. When you could control where you want to airdodge it opened up many more options for you to airdodge up down back or right back to the stage to further fake out your opponent but now it's been taken out.

Hitstun - Another big one. Having hitstun is part of the risk vs rewards aspect of the game which was incredibly balanced in Melee. Good players were rewarded by killing their opponent or doin a combo that would build up a lot of damage eventually leading to a kill while bad players had to rethink their strategy and try again. Having hitstun meant that when it came time to punish an opponent, the opponent couldn't strike back with an attack of their own unless you of course messed up which means that now the other player is rewarded for capitalizing on your mistake. But in Brawl when a player messes up, you still risk bein seriously hurt or even gettin koed because the lack of hitstun means that your attempted combo will fail miserably where in Melee is was just a reward if you did it right. So the whole lack of hitstun and the risks outweighing rewards in this game makes for a great camping game which has been proven with video proof.

Tripping - LOL wtf no explanation here xD.

But of course people will still try to push through and say that this is still just as competitive as Melee though as it may have seemed that the characters are more balanced that is defintely not true seein as how all of the characters with effective spamming projectiles or spammable 0 lag aerial attacks are coming out on top right now and will remain that way because of the physics of this game lacking a good approach to such characters. Melee has a better balance of overall gameplay and character design in my oppinion and Brawl should only be seen as a party game where camping isn't an issue and people will play with whoever the **** they want to play with and play on a level that can be beaten easily. A lot of this stuff is fact and a lot is opinion so you guys but either way pro brawl people's opinions aren't easily swayed seein as this is the new shiny toy and kids love to tinker with new toys but whatever you guys will eventually see the light.

 

[The_Smash_Champ]

Read the sig. You're right Brawl isn't Melee 2.0 but it is indeed a sequel. So it's gonna be compared no matter what. New game or not you still gotta look at the predecessor and see what kind of improvements and what kind of things they ****ed up on. The only real improvements I see on the game is graphics and music and that isn't sayin much since that isn't what makes up the competitive side of the game. On the other hand, things that they ****ed up on:

Physics - This is the one of the biggest things here. The floatiness guarantees for a really slow game meaning not fun to play and not fun to watch. Everyone can come back to the stage with relative ease even bein knocked off the stage at like 120 all you have to do is DI up and towards the stage and you can almost make it without even having to use your second jump. What kind of **** is that for people to be able to easily come back with no effort? That means drawn out matches tryin to kill them at such high percentages.

Airdodging - For starters this should have been left at a one time thing before you get hit again. Now you can do it many times without gettin ****ed which I think is stupid. And you can't control the direction where you want your airdodge to go. Yes it does have in part having to do with wavedashing but also not having full control of your character is not a good feeling. But also another thing of not bein able to control where your airdodge means that since it's based on momentum airdodging back to the stage does not guarantee that you'll make it back safely as your opponent can now accurately predict where you are gonna go and meet up with you at that point of intersect and **** you. When you could control where you want to airdodge it opened up many more options for you to airdodge up down back or right back to the stage to further fake out your opponent but now it's been taken out.

Hitstun - Another big one. Having hitstun is part of the risk vs rewards aspect of the game which was incredibly balanced in Melee. Good players were rewarded by killing their opponent or doin a combo that would build up a lot of damage eventually leading to a kill while bad players had to rethink their strategy and try again. Having hitstun meant that when it came time to punish an opponent, the opponent couldn't strike back with an attack of their own unless you of course messed up which means that now the other player is rewarded for capitalizing on your mistake. But in Brawl when a player messes up, you still risk bein seriously hurt or even gettin koed because the lack of hitstun means that your attempted combo will fail miserably where in Melee is was just a reward if you did it right. So the whole lack of hitstun and the risks outweighing rewards in this game makes for a great camping game which has been proven with video proof.

Tripping - LOL wtf no explanation here xD.

But of course people will still try to push through and say that this is still just as competitive as Melee though as it may have seemed that the characters are more balanced that is defintely not true seein as how all of the characters with effective spamming projectiles or spammable 0 lag aerial attacks are coming out on top right now and will remain that way because of the physics of this game lacking a good approach to such characters. Melee has a better balance of overall gameplay and character design in my oppinion and Brawl should only be seen as a party game where camping isn't an issue and people will play with whoever the **** they want to play with and play on a level that can be beaten easily. A lot of this stuff is fact and a lot is opinion so you guys but either way pro brawl people's opinions aren't easily swayed seein as this is the new shiny toy and kids love to tinker with new toys but whatever you guys will eventually see the light.

I finally read a smart post, Sorry Brawl but melee ***** you.

 

[BlackPanther]

Thanks, it's not as well thought out as some others might have done but I figured I'd give it a shot and try to enlighten some of the pro brawl players.

 

[RDK]

HAHA, im sorry but i had to do that to see what kind of responses i wouldve gotten...

In all honesty, I like brawl, but its to early for it to become as competive as melee IS...

I'm still surprised that people actually still think Brawl is going to reach the same competitive level as Melee. Brawl =/= Melee.

I love how people keep saying "Give it some time! The metagame will develop." But as weeks pass by into months, it's becoming increasingly obvious that Brawl isn't really going anywhere.

*SIGH*

I miss Melee.

 

[ToastMAN]

I guess...but its hard to say since i am on the other side...

Well Brawl become competitive like Melee?
Sure why not...it just wont play the same...

I think the hardest part for someone to handle in the change is that the mental process is still stuck in melee mode rather than in brawl mode...most of us still have the melee mentality and still play like if it were melee...

I like brawl and have left melee in the past, I could see myself playing brawl for a long time....

but then again it could be because every thing of melee bores me and brawl is new to me in a much better and different way...

 

[Veil2222]

Same here toast, I stopped trying to really put anything forth in this thread because that opinion gets a lot of flaming thrown at it from all walks of life on the boards. It's really sad that people are so brick walled by melee, but they really don't matter in the long run, because they're going to be replaced if they don't adapt.

 

[ToastMAN]

Same here toast, I stopped trying to really put anything forth in this thread because that opinion gets a lot of flaming thrown at it from all walks of life on the boards. It's really sad that people are so brick walled by melee, but they really don't matter in the long run, because they're going to be replaced if they don't adapt.

Thats for sure, i think its really the fact that most of the melee faithfuls hate the fact that they can lose to someone who has never played a smash bros game before...but in melee they would 4 stock that person with ease...

Brawl is as competitive as you make it, you cant expect Brawl to come out of the gate and be as competive as melee was...we'll see how things go, but if the melee players decide to take the stubborn road...their gonna become forgotten and left behind

 

[Veil2222]

I'm already trying to forget them, my opinion of these boards and the people who govern it's opinions and ideas has gone way down hill. Seems you've gotta have a huge post count, special colored name, made a national name for yourself, or brown nose someone with a national name, just to get any respect. I'm probably only going to use this board for information gathering on brawl until the dust settles, until then I'll be in brawl tactics/characters forums, at least people are respectful there.

 

[LouisLeGros]

Don't give me that "still in the melee mindset" crap.

We have heard the "you have not adapted and you need to because it is a different game" a million times.

WE HAVE ADAPTED, just go watch some videos by overswarm and you will see what the adaptation looks like. Instead of shffl we spam B, instead of combo we camp. We aren't getting our ***** handed to us by new players that have never played smash before. The best melee players are still pretty much the best brawl players. Being good at melee required the ability to ADAPT.

We've adapted and it has just revealed how shallow of a game Brawl is.

 

[Embrio]

There's really no "dust to be settle" here, high level players have already played Brawl and have concluded the game is very limited in high level play. The actual creater even admits to designing the game so it isnt competitve. I understamd there r some Brawl lovers here but dont cling to false hope that this game will be anywhere near as good as Melee.