Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Demon Kirby]

@Embrio and Louis and almost everyone else:

You aren't bringing anything new to the discussion other than the discussion itself.

Edit: hey, BlackPanther, did you forget your chill pills this morning?

 

[BlackPanther]

Same here toast, I stopped trying to really put anything forth in this thread because that opinion gets a lot of flaming thrown at it from all walks of life on the boards. It's really sad that people are so brick walled by melee, but they really don't matter in the long run, because they're going to be replaced if they don't adapt.

It's not adapting! Why must you guys insist that we can't adapt?! I've adapted perfectly to this game but you know what, I just despise what it's become. It's become this shallow *** game. A game where it doesn't take practice to get good. Everythings been laid on the table from auto edge grab(removing the edge guarding game) to instant run to upsmash(you had to jump right before the upsmash to do it in Melee). Nubs have just as much power as any veteran without having to put in the same amount of work.

The game is a lot slower and for me I hate a slow ****ing game I can't stand to watch em either. Matches are so drawn out now because either they start spamming projectiles like a ****ing scared nub. Or because of the inability to kill people at low percentages and bein able to get back easily on your first jump makes this game stupid as **** for competitive play. Stop calling it a different game, it's ****ing Smash Brothers this is a sequel to the previous two so therefore it's the same game.

I really hate swearing in my posts and gettin upset but the smash community is so incompetent. And can't see the flaws in Brawl it's rediculous. And alot of you want to say that Melee will die, what the **** kind of **** is that. The two can perfectly coincide with one another if a lot of you people want to play Brawl. SF 2 and SF 3 are still played 2 is played just as much as 3 but the only difference is their community isn't as stubborn as this one. And they know how to play both and understand the plus and negatives of both games unlike this community it's pathetic if you ask me.

Edited: Paragraphs for easier reading.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Competitive players probably adapted to Brawl faster than anyone else, its just not fun.

 

[ToastMAN]

Don't give me that "still in the melee mindset" crap.

We have heard the "you have not adapted and you need to because it is a different game" a million times.

WE HAVE ADAPTED, just go watch some videos by overswarm and you will see what the adaptation looks like. Instead of shffl we spam B, instead of combo we camp. We aren't getting our ***** handed to us by new players that have never played smash before. The best melee players are still pretty much the best brawl players. Being good at melee required the ability to ADAPT.

We've adapted and it has just revealed how shallow of a game Brawl is.

Of course it may seem shallow we just got the game.

The first time you ever tried to swim, you dont jump in the deepest end of the pool, you start in the shallow side. How long did it take us to Dash Dance? like 2 years after melee was released...

Same **** goes for brawl...

The biggest argument and difference between the two is obviously the gameplay. I enjoy the fact that everyone starts at the same level or close to the same level. It gives others the opportunity to excell.

EDIT: i dont understand how Melee is more fun than brawl, i cant help but get bored after 5 or so matches of melee...I see how it could be fun for the really good players, since winning hardly gets boring...

All in all, im content with brawl and dont plan on ever going to melee....

 

[RDK]

Competitive players probably adapted to Brawl faster than anyone else, its just not fun.

This is pretty much true. Brawl is basiaclly a watered-down version of Melee. We didn't have a hard time converting over, but once you're on the other side, Melee looks a lot greener.

Probably what disturbs me the most, though, is that people who just jumped into the Smash franchise at Brawl are already on equal footing (for the most part) with a lot of the veterans who've been playing Melee for 6 and 7 years. It just goes to show you that Sakurai holds no merit for those who actually strive to be better.

 

[LouisLeGros]

@Embrio and Louis and almost everyone else:

You aren't bringing anything new to the discussion other than the discussion itself.

Edit: hey, BlackPanther, did you forget your chill pills this morning?

as said by you

You aren't bringing anything new to the discussion

I was responding to Veil2222 & ToastMAN, sure what was said has already been discussed, but they had brought it up again.

 

[ToastMAN]

I wasnt here for majority of discussion and there no way that im going to read 109 pages....

 

[Demon Kirby]

I was talking to them to, and probably myself as well . . .

It's really impossible as of now to bring anything new to the discussion. Got something that hasn't been said already? I'd like to see it.

 

[BlackPanther]

Of course it may seem shallow we just got the game.

The first time you ever tried to swim, you dont jump in the deepest end of the pool, you start in the shallow side. How long did it take us to Dash Dance? like 2 years after melee was released...

Same **** goes for brawl...

The biggest argument and difference between the two is obviously the gameplay. I enjoy the fact that everyone starts at the same level or close to the same level. It gives others the opportunity to excell.

Dude Brawl started out having hundreds of thousands of people tryin to figure the game out. Even before it's release in America people were tryin to figure out the game from the japan imports. Melee started out with people not givin a **** about it till people found about exploits in the game like wavedashing. Then after that one thing led to another, it really didn't take that long for people to figure stuff out once people had the drive to learn more and more about the game. People began wanting to know as much as the could about Brawl and then some. People may have found little minor things. But for the most part they are useless and not all characters can use them. Things like l cancel, wavedashing, and dash dancing were techniques that all characters could use and gave them more of an edge and gave the characters who really didn't stand a chance a fighting chance. The characters in Brawl that don't have a chance just don't have a chance because of these techniques taken out. Like I said you guys are too stubbon to admit it and that's sad.

@ The chill pill comment - Sorry some personal issues. My apologies for bringing it to the forums ;_;.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I wasnt here for majority of discussion and there no way that im going to read 109 pages....

Then why post at all? Just go to some other thread where your posts will be relevant.

 

[kr3wman]

It's not adapting! Why must you guys insist that we can't adapt?! I've adapted perfectly to this game but you know what, I just despise what it's become. It's become this shallow *** game. A game where it doesn't take practice to get good. Everythings been laid on the table from auto edge grab(removing the edge guarding game) to instant run to upsmash(you had to jump right before the upsmash to do it in Melee). Nubs have just as much power as any veteran without having to put in the same amount of work.

The game is a lot slower and for me I hate a slow ****ing game I can't stand to watch em either. Matches are so drawn out now because either they start spamming projectiles like a ****ing scared nub. Or because of the inability to kill people at low percentages and bein able to get back easily on your first jump makes this game stupid as **** for competitive play. Stop calling it a different game, it's ****ing Smash Brothers this is a sequel to the previous two so therefore it's the same game.

I really hate swearing in my posts and gettin upset but the smash community is so incompetent. And can't see the flaws in Brawl it's rediculous. And alot of you want to say that Melee will die, what the **** kind of **** is that. The two can perfectly coincide with one another if a lot of you people want to play Brawl. SF 2 and SF 3 are still played 2 is played just as much as 3 but the only difference is their community isn't as stubborn as this one. And they know how to play both and understand the plus and negatives of both games unlike this community it's pathetic if you ask me.

Edited: Paragraphs for easier reading.

The only thing I got out of that was "****! ****ing ****!"

To all the Melee fanboys who come to the Brawl boards and complain about how shallow it is :

Shut the **** up and go play Melee! That's simple as hell!

And to all the Brawl Fanboys who still keep defending this game :

Ignore whoever wants to talk **** about Brawl. You know better than them. If it goes down into an argument of who has the bigger e-peen, then you're both stupid losers that don't help the situation people now are in.

Now everyone, Shut the **** up. We're suppose to have fun playing the god**** game. I don't care if you don't think it is competitive, I don't want to hear what is your thoughts on how Melee =/= Brawl/ Melee > Brawl, I still don't care about why you think Brawl ruined smash competitive scene, and I don't, oh the amount of don't in this sentence, want to hear why Brawl isn't what you wanted it to be.


P.S. :

Spoiler

God ****ing ****it. I just had to get this off my mind.

 

[Lixivium]

Please, no more posts saying "give Brawl time". There is no guarantee people will magically come up with strategies/techniques that defy the VERY ENGINE of the game to make it more competitive.

These so-called "advanced techniques" that might be discovered in Brawl are likely to be on the order of moonwalking in Melee - marginally useful, possibly flashy, but not game-changing.

They almost certainly will be specific to one or a few characters, thus hurting that "Brawl is more balanced than Melee" argument people love so much.

 

[Embrio]

Well look, honestly the game is shalllow....the top players have adapted and were all in agreement melee is the better game. I dont know why that concept is hard to understand, some games just dont have what it takes to be competitve regardless of who plays them. Look at something like SF1, even if u have guys like Valle and Diago playing it still doesnt change the fact that SF1 is a bad game that has no competitve merit.

 

[ToastMAN]

This whole discussion is really new to me, so i could care less...

Feel free to skip out on this part if youve already discussed something simillar to this ****...Crashboards could care less

 

[LouisLeGros]

Well we have already discussed your reply to my post about giving Brawl time.

You are expecting to find tons of more depth in a game that was purposefully delayed after the EforAll demo to remove everything that was close to an AT that were found by smash players.

 

[Eszett]

I will go ahead and state that Brawl is not as competitive as Melee. I have little interest in debating that point with anyone since the evidence is quite conclusive.

However, I was a bit irked by the competitive community in the earliest days of release of the game: they were comparing individual character strategies in Melee to those characters in Brawl. While Brawl as a whole can be compared to Melee in terms of competitiveness, it is spacious to assume that characters which appeared in games prior will necessarily have the same abilities in Brawl. I would have liked the community to have adopted the mentality of "there are no returning characters, every one of the 37 characters in this game is new" - this would prevent prior knowledge from Melee affecting the metagame and allow a genuinely a priori look at the way Brawl works, taking a generic approach which could be used to analyze any competitive game.

That's water over the bridge now, but the message is still the same: Brawl doesn't care about what you can do in Melee, it cares about what you can do in Brawl.

 

[kr3wman]

I will go ahead and state that Brawl is not as competitive as Melee. I have little interest in debating that point with anyone since the evidence is quite conclusive.

However, I was a bit irked by the competitive community in the earliest days of release of the game: they were comparing individual character strategies in Melee to those characters in Brawl. While Brawl as a whole can be compared to Melee in terms of competitiveness, it is spacious to assume that characters which appeared in games prior will necessarily have the same abilities in Brawl. I would have liked the community to have adopted the mentality of "there are no returning characters, every one of the 37 characters in this game is new" - this would prevent prior knowledge from Melee affecting the metagame and allow a genuinely a priori look at the way Brawl works, taking a generic approach which could be used to analyze any competitive game.

That's water over the bridge now, but the message is still the same: Brawl doesn't care about what you can do in Melee, it cares about what you can do in Brawl.

Most people aren't objective enough to do that. Most can only function with past experiences.

 

[ToastMAN]

Then why post at all? Just go to some other thread where your posts will be relevant.

Why post at all? because I want in on this discussion...besides i doubt you or any other members is gonna really read all 100+ pages...

As long as im getting responses to my posts I feel no need to go to another thread....

 

[BlackPanther]

The only thing I got out of that was "****! ****ing ****!"

To all the Melee fanboys who come to the Brawl boards and complain about how shallow it is :

Shut the **** up and go play Melee! That's simple as hell!

And to all the Brawl Fanboys who still keep defending this game :

Ignore whoever wants to talk **** about Brawl. You know better than them. If it goes down into an argument of who has the bigger e-peen, then you're both stupid losers that don't help the situation people now are in.

Now everyone, Shut the **** up. We're suppose to have fun playing the god**** game. I don't care if you don't think it is competitive, I don't want to hear what is your thoughts on how Melee =/= Brawl/ Melee > Brawl, I still don't care about why you think Brawl ruined smash competitive scene, and I don't, oh the amount of don't in this sentence, want to hear why Brawl isn't what you wanted it to be.


P.S. :

Spoiler

God ****ing ****it. I just had to get this off my mind.

Don't be a Sakurai **** sucker/rider. If all you got out of my response was ****! and ****! You are truly ****ing stupid. And if you don't care why the **** are you here. Stop bein a ****ing nub and go crawl back into your moms ****** you stupid idiot.

 

[LouisLeGros]

I was talking to them to, and probably myself as well . . .

It's really impossible as of now to bring anything new to the discussion. Got something that hasn't been said already? I'd like to see it.

we are nearing post #1700 in this thread
I think the arrival of some real fresh content in this thread is as likely as the discovery of some game changing AT in Brawl.


I could post some links to the overswarm video with 500% more camping so we can all cringe at it again...

 

[Pink Reaper]

The only thing I got out of that was "****! ****ing ****!"

To all the Melee fanboys who come to the Brawl boards and complain about how shallow it is :

Shut the **** up and go play Melee! That's simple as hell!

And to all the Brawl Fanboys who still keep defending this game :

Ignore whoever wants to talk **** about Brawl. You know better than them. If it goes down into an argument of who has the bigger e-peen, then you're both stupid losers that don't help the situation people now are in.

Now everyone, Shut the **** up. We're suppose to have fun playing the god**** game. I don't care if you don't think it is competitive, I don't want to hear what is your thoughts on how Melee =/= Brawl/ Melee > Brawl, I still don't care about why you think Brawl ruined smash competitive scene, and I don't, oh the amount of don't in this sentence, want to hear why Brawl isn't what you wanted it to be.


P.S. :

Spoiler

God ****ing ****it. I just had to get this off my mind.

I have to wonder. If you don't care about the competitive aspects of the game, and you don't want to hear about them, why the **** would you joing a COMPETITIVE SMASH BROS FORUM? GameFAQs is that way ------------------>

Edit:@toast, I once read 78 pages of a thread just so I knew my post would be relevant. It was originally going to be 70 pages, but over the course of reading it, 8 more pages had been posted. I have very high expectations.

 

[KirbyKaze]

i never tire of the overswarm 500% vid.

 

[ToastMAN]

I will go ahead and state that Brawl is not as competitive as Melee. I have little interest in debating that point with anyone since the evidence is quite conclusive.

However, I was a bit irked by the competitive community in the earliest days of release of the game: they were comparing individual character strategies in Melee to those characters in Brawl. While Brawl as a whole can be compared to Melee in terms of competitiveness, it is spacious to assume that characters which appeared in games prior will necessarily have the same abilities in Brawl. I would have liked the community to have adopted the mentality of "there are no returning characters, every one of the 37 characters in this game is new" - this would prevent prior knowledge from Melee affecting the metagame and allow a genuinely a priori look at the way Brawl works, taking a generic approach which could be used to analyze any competitive game.

That's water over the bridge now, but the message is still the same: Brawl doesn't care about what you can do in Melee, it cares about what you can do in Brawl.

Amen to that **** bro...i couldnt have said it better myself

 

[kr3wman]

Don't be a Sakurai **** sucker/rider. If all you got out of my response was ****! and ****! You are truly ****ing stupid. And if you don't care why the **** are you here. Stop bein a ****ing nub and go crawl back into your moms ****** you stupid idiot.

The fact that I take no clear side makes your fragile little mind go down into personal insults. I pity you.

 

[BlackPanther]

The fact that I take no clear side makes your fragile little mind go down into personal insults. I pity you.

That's because you started it moron. You still didn't answer the question as to why you are here in the first place if you don't care. And if you bothered to read my response instead of just assuming that it wasn't intelligent you would have seen that it was directed towards any individual person. Reading is fundamental.

 

[LouisLeGros]

Why post at all? because I want in on this discussion...besides i doubt you or any other members is gonna really read all 100+ pages...

As long as im getting responses to my posts I feel no need to go to another thread....

I've gone through and have throughly read about 95% of the replies on this thread (skimmed the rest). If I haven't checked on the thread for a couple of days then I will go through and read what I missed.


If you aren't going to read the entire thread you should atleast read the first post and the important posts that Scar has linked.

If you want to be taken seriously in this discussion you should at least read the thread in which the discussion is occurring. If you can't be bothered to do that then you shouldn't be expected to be let in on the discussion.

 

[kr3wman]

That's because you started it moron. You still didn't answer the question as to why you are here in the first place if you don't care. And if you bothered to read my response instead of just assuming that it wasn't intelligent you would have seen that it was directed towards any individual person. Reading is fundamental.

And if you had good reading comprehension, you would have noticed the only thing that my post had in common was the fact that I tought yours was only saying **** and ****.

 

[BlackPanther]

And if you had good reading comprehension, you would have noticed the only thing that my post had in common was the fact that I tought yours was only saying **** and ****.

For one it's thought* and you said thought meaning assume, meaning you didn't read. Instead of respond about what you thought I said, how about you respond back with what you read that I said and make an intelligent post that way ok?

Anyways I'm goin to bed I'm severely stressed out right now so apoligies(I mean that) for bein so blunt and irrational with my insults ;_;.

 

[DD151]

Now everyone, Shut the **** up. We're suppose to have fun playing the god**** game. I don't care if you don't think it is competitive, I don't want to hear what is your thoughts on how Melee =/= Brawl/ Melee > Brawl, I still don't care about why you think Brawl ruined smash competitive scene, and I don't, oh the amount of don't in this sentence, want to hear why Brawl isn't what you wanted it to be.

one of the many people on this board who expects his word to be the last on an argument, expecting his opponents to walk away in shame with a dark cloud over their heads, shocked into submission by his eloquent assertions and professed lack of caring.

it is very clear that you have taken a side.

 

[ToastMAN]

I've gone through and have throughly read about 95% of the replies on this thread (skimmed the rest). If I haven't checked on the thread for a couple of days then I will go through and read what I missed.


If you aren't going to read the entire thread you should atleast read the first post and the important posts that Scar has linked.

If you want to be taken seriously in this discussion you should at least read the thread in which the discussion is occurring. If you can't be bothered to do that then you shouldn't be expected to be let in on the discussion.

Bah, this whole forum is filled with Ignorance...

Ive read areas in which i thought were important, if what we are saying now is a repeat of an already discussed topic, what make me believe that there arent a lot of reuccuring topics in the entire thread..

 

[kr3wman]

For one it's thought* and you said thought meaning assume, meaning you didn't read. Instead of respond about what you thought I said, how about you respond back with what you read that I said and make an intelligent post that way ok?

Anyways I'm goin to bed I'm severely stressed out right now so apoligies(I mean that) for bein so blunt and irrational with my insults ;_;.

It's ok, I just realised that since I quoted you, my post would seem to be directed to you. But it is, like yours, not meant for anyone in particular.

Sorry for that. It's friggin late here too.

one of the many people on this board who expects his word to be the last on an argument, expecting his opponents to walk away in shame with a dark cloud over their heads, shocked into submission by his eloquent assertions and professed lack of caring.

it is very clear that you have taken a side.

I'm just tired of everyone complaining and not moving one to something else. It's almost like one must bring their opinion even if someone already said all the same things. I joined this forums because I wanted to play Melee and Brawl in a competitive way. Now it's almost like you need to get a side and defend whatever opinions you have.

I just don't care about the arguments, I want to get good at playing the game, not being good at telling other people the game isn't/is what they should be playing.

 

[LouisLeGros]

okay kre3wman,
no flaming here, but you just went on a rant about how you don't really care about anything that we are discussing in this thread. You don't care who thinks what about melee or who thinks Brawl is such and such.

If that is true why post here? Also if that is true, why even register at a COMPETITIVE smash bros forum?

If you joined because of Brawl news, fine. However, what you are doing now is amounting to little more then trolling.

 

[DRaGZ]

I think we should consider playing Heavy Brawl...

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158712

>_> Just sayin'.

 

[kr3wman]

okay kre3wman,
no flaming here, but you just went on a rant about how you don't really care about anything that we are discussing in this thread. You don't care who thinks what about melee or who thinks Brawl is such and such.

If that is true why post here? Also if that is true, why even register at a COMPETITIVE smash bros forum?

If you joined because of Brawl news, fine. However, what you are doing now is amounting to little more then trolling.

Read my edit at previous post.

 

[LouisLeGros]

Bah, this whole forum is filled with Ignorance...

Ive read areas in which i thought were important, if what we are saying now is a repeat of an already discussed topic, what make me believe that there arent a lot of reuccuring topics in the entire thread..

forum filled with ignorance because we tell you read the thread to be able to be able to know what has been discussed? Reading what you think is important is far from informing you about the real discussion in this thread.


You are just insulting us now.

 

[kr3wman]

forum filled with ignorance because we tell you read the thread to be able to be able to know what has been discussed? Reading what you think is important is far from informing you about the real discussion in this thread.


You are just insulting us now.

Did you read the edit?

 

[Demon Kirby]

I'm just here to point out that randomly swearing at and insulting people in an argument is completely pointless, espacially on the internet, where 90% of things we say we would never say in real life. It's not even an argument if it ammounts to that; it's a flamefest.

Edit: apology partially accepted, BlackPanther.

 

[Papapaint]

Unfortunately, I think this thread hit its peak around page 10 or so, when we started really delving into potential options for the game. Since then, it's gone downhill with people clamoring to get their insignificant opinions heard without even reading at the very least the "important posts" to which scar refers.

I vote that those of us who want to analyze Brawl's future ignore the people who keep reiterating the same **** thing we've heard over and over, ignore the people flaming us for wanting to see Brawl as a competitive game, and absolutely ignore anyone who uses the words "melee 2.0" in their post.

Let's go back to discussing the game's current state, potential solutions, and how we can bring in most of what made smash competitive in the first place--not just melee. Let's try to figure out how to bring balance between attacking and defending, and bring in a new edgegame. Let's work out new combos.

Right now, heavy brawl looks fantastic. Give it a shot.

 

[LouisLeGros]

Did you read the edit?

yes I read your edit and I can appreciate your sentiments.

The only problem is that they really don't have a place in the debate thread about the competitive nature of the game.

I would suggest you goto the tactical discussion board or character specific boards for resources on improving your brawl game. If you want to find places to compete there are also subforums for that.


I will say that I think my Brawl game has benefited from the detailed analyzes of Brawl's gameplay done in many of the replies in this thread.

 

[gameandwatch 4 Lyfe]

This game is still brand spanking new. None of us know the true potential of this game yet, let's be serious, not even the pros. New techniques and combos will be revealed and people will eventually lose the woody they still have for Melee. I agree, Melee was awesome, I'll still pick it up on occasion, just as I pick up Smash 64, but we are in the age of Brawl. This is the game we've been waiting for for years!!! People are ready to throw it away to go back to the 4 playable characters in Melee? This game has made some positive changes (along with tripping... I know) such as multiple air dodges, attacking after an Up B, easier sweet spotting, and what seems so far to be more balanced characters.