Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Smooth Criminal]

Good job, Brawler.

Your run-on sentence did not do ANYTHING to further the discussion.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Brawler1432]

Just putting in my opinion. Trust me, I've seen very few threads (none) on this subject that have ever furthered to a point of agreeing.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Oh boy, I posted here earlier about a few pro brawl points, but I suppose it was just ignored, which is really frustrating, so I'll try again.

First of all, I don't believe that Brawl is a campfest. I just think that atm, people find that to be the easiest playing style, so most people tend to adapt to that. I for one try to play aggressively because it has its benefits although it may not seem like it. For one you can actually punish someone in this game, it just depends on how well you predict them, and I suppose you can say that they are just making bad decisions but on the other hand maybe the aggressive player is just doing really well at predicting them..I can further elaborate on my other points, instead of wasting, I want to see my feedback, to see if its actually worth it...>_>

You're a fellow Wario player right? Yeah Wario's like the most anti-campy character in the game most Wario players can tell that Brawl is not a complete campfest...perhaps because we spend the most time NOT CAMPING

 

[Radical Dreamer]

I just spent two hours playing Brawl with Ike against an IC/Toon Link player, and man did I get the **** camped out of me. Truth be told though, that's probably part of being an Ike player in Brawl. Honestly though, Ike is one of the few reasons to actually play Brawl.

 

[Brawler1432]

Here's just a bit of sense, not on either sides, just take a sec to read this please:


http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158764

 

[CasshernDGZ]

Exactly...which is why I firmly believe that the reason why people have so much beef with this game is due to the fact that they are too busy being in the melee mindset, what I've discovered is that a lot of things are just CHARACTER specific. Certain characters can combo, while others can't do it well. Certain characters camp, while others can't and have to do nothing but constant pressure. In melee a lot of things were very universal so people were used to things be able to work with a bunch of different characters. In brawl is so different. I find that characters play styles are on completely different sides, I have to play Wario so much differently then I play Wolf. But in melee, I can relatively play certain characters similarly to some extent.

 

[Papapaint]

Here's just a bit of sense, not on either sides, just take a sec to read this please:


http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158764

That's not sense.

A: We have the right to express our opinion as we please. You don't have to read it.

B: We've had a fair amount of productivity come from this thread as many of us have tried to come up with creative ways to help make the game more competitive. I'm sorry, but I'm not just going to say "Brawl is less competitive... oh well, I'll suck it up and play melee/play brawl the way it is." I'm going to look for ways to turn a game I love into something that's respected amongst the competitive gaming community.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Good for you, would you like a sticker? Get off your high horse and stop thinking that everyone is inferior to you. By the way, if you made the exact same post earlier, wouldn't YOU have been way off the point in the first place? When did I insult Melee players? Unless you have some sort of comprehension learning disorder, there is not one instance of bashing in the entire post. I suggest you don't think so highly of yourself, it's not the most appealing quality.

The high horse is the reason you can't understand what we're saying.

Our pedestal is too tall to climb off.

And, to further prove my point, you probably don't even understand the metaphor.

 

[Scar]

First of all, I don't believe that Brawl is a campfest.

idk, if you don't think Brawl is all about not approaching and projectile camping, you haven't played anyone good at the game yet. How much have you played/analyzed the game? Are you confident that you know enough about what should be high-level play to make that claim?

But it is a stretch to say all brawl supporters are wrong.

No one is saying this. I'm saying that Brawl supporters never make any good points ever.

I myself am a competitive smasher, but I hate being put into the group that will always criticize a smash game, on every detail.

If by criticize you mean scrutinize and study and learn, then you're not a competitive smasher. From the rest of this post, it's quite obvious that you are NOT a competitive smasher. But that's besides the point.

I don't do it to come on here and rant about why Melee is better then Brawl or Vise Versa.

I'm not ranting.

I'm sorry for you guys who really are worse at Brawl and try to blame the game for it.

This is the point I actually make against Brawlers... I find that many more players are bad at Melee and switched to Brawl and loved it to death vs the amount of players who were bad at Brawl and went back to Melee. I don't think it's possible to be bad at Brawl, the game does everything for you.

Brawl has more features, and not only is it packed on with stuff, it has an easier control.

The worth of a competitive fighting game lies purely within its multiplayer. The features and "packed with stuff" stuff are not to be factored into this discussion. The control, however, is very relevant. It's also much worse. The game doesn't let you do exactly what you want because of the UBS (universal buffer system), autosweetspotting, tripping etc.

Not having as much control over your character =/= easier control. It's worse control, period.

It's almost fact that Brawl is a better game, deal with it.

I don't understand why I have to deal with a matter of your opinion. I certainly don't have to deal with an "almost fact." I just don't see how you think you're making an intelligent point here.

Now before you start flaming this with defending opinions,( because it likely that your one of those hard headed people who will make any argument for your game) know this : Melee is a generally accepted better sport.

Ok, so "better sport" is, I suppose, your way of saying "more competitive." And I mean how are you going to off the bat say that I'm going to flame you and be hard headed and make any argument defending Melee? You haven't made an argument defending Brawl!

The closest you've come to an actual argument has been "it's packed with features!"

It's almost sickening, if someone like ME, who has never and will never be the most competitive person, can get used to Brawl, then so can you.

This is a great thing for me to point out. It's BECAUSE you're not a competitive person/player that you can appreciate Brawl. Someone like myself, who can't bear to watch someone lose who deserves to win, cannot sit and watch. I'd rather watch a superior player win all the time, and tell the loser to get better. That's the way it should be.

 

[volbound1700]

Brawl isn't Melee, it is more like the original. However, you can still do well with some melee tactics.

My biggest problem with Brawl is online play with the 2 minute matches. I hate 2 minute matches. Partly because I do 99% damage to a guy and then he happens to fly over to other side and another guy gets the kill and the count. Or sometimes characters will suicide and it just gives kills to random people. This one guy beat me with 4 KOS when two were from characters falling off cliff no where near him and he died like twice while I only died once.

Sakurai, no one likes time matches. Stock is a lot better. I never play time and the reasons above are why. No one I have played Smash brothers with likes timed matches. Online play was ruined because it is just timed matches.

 

[Corigames]

Aww Scar... you're making me look bad. I try to stay up late and counter post people with no argument, but now I feel like I have competition. Don't overshadow me, or I'll... I'll... WALL OF TEXT YOU!

 

[Scar]

I asked Sakurai what he thought about your plight. Here is his answer.

Volbound, everyone wins in Brawl. When the game makes you win despite the effort (or lack thereof) you've put in, it'll be your turn to have fun!

@coreygames... not the WoT!!

 

[Lixivium]

Exactly...which is why I firmly believe that the reason why people have so much beef with this game is due to the fact that they are too busy being in the melee mindset, what I've discovered is that a lot of things are just CHARACTER specific. Certain characters can combo, while others can't do it well. Certain characters camp, while others can't and have to do nothing but constant pressure.

First of all, nobody can play with "constant pressure" in Brawl and expect to win. Second, the problem is not that some characters can camp and others can't, it's that in any given match, those who camp have an advantage over those who do not.

In melee a lot of things were very universal so people were used to things be able to work with a bunch of different characters. In brawl is so different. I find that characters play styles are on completely different sides, I have to play Wario so much differently then I play Wolf. But in melee, I can relatively play certain characters similarly to some extent.

And the movesets might be more different but Brawl is much more homogenous in terms of character physics.

 

[Corigames]

We can't all win. That's just not... it's plain... why the fu... WHAT'S WRONG WITH HIM?!?!?! that's a childish notion to try to please all the people all the time. People will sometimes have problems, wy do that... ARRRGGGG. So much... ANGER.

 

[volbound1700]

I asked Sakurai what he thought about your plight. Here is his answer.



@coreygames... not the WoT!!

Your probably correct with the KOs given to a player when they are really suicides.

I have started to like team brawl better, that way if I own somebody but miss the KO, my partner gets it and still get the team credit for it.

 

[Plairnkk]

pikachu is fun

 

[thumbswayup]

pikachu is fun

you traitor

 

[takieddine]

Has Scar really silenced the beast?

 

[Scar]

lol Nice edit Plank.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Wait so...

After playing the E-For-All Version of Brawl, your opinion on the competitive worth, and the ceiling of depth, and everything... is opposite to your current feelings towards Brawl? (Your current feelings being that Brawl is a disappointment, etc...)

If this is true... I am not kidding you guys... but something seriously F*CKED UP happened at Sora Ltd. with the development of Brawl in the time gap between E-For-All and the Double Delayed Retail Release.

PS: Excuse my language, I'm still in shock if this is true.

Sorry I didn't respond to this earlier, but yes, many Melee factors where still prominent in Brawl.

The competitive worth of the demo escalated beyond my expectations. My initial expectations for the Brawl demo were the exact same feeling towards the final product. The fact that the Demo surpassed my expectations is an illogical paradox.

I'm telling you guys, this was all intentional. Perhaps this was the reason behind the delay; they had to edit copies of the came. Congratulations Sakurai, you've successfully derailed the competitive community even though you could have EASILY satisfied the casual community regardless.

I feel betrayal.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

It was all a scam! A conspiracy! We should've never gone down to e4all >=[

Then again, the Melee demo looked exactly like present-day Brawl so...idk o_O

 

[Brawler1432]

idk, if you don't think Brawl is all about not approaching and projectile camping, you haven't played anyone good at the game yet. How much have you played/analyzed the game? Are you confident that you know enough about what should be high-level play to make that claim?



No one is saying this. I'm saying that Brawl supporters never make any good points ever.



If by criticize you mean scrutinize and study and learn, then you're not a competitive smasher. From the rest of this post, it's quite obvious that you are NOT a competitive smasher. But that's besides the point.



I'm not ranting.



This is the point I actually make against Brawlers... I find that many more players are bad at Melee and switched to Brawl and loved it to death vs the amount of players who were bad at Brawl and went back to Melee. I don't think it's possible to be bad at Brawl, the game does everything for you.



The worth of a competitive fighting game lies purely within its multiplayer. The features and "packed with stuff" stuff are not to be factored into this discussion. The control, however, is very relevant. It's also much worse. The game doesn't let you do exactly what you want because of the UBS (universal buffer system), autosweetspotting, tripping etc.

Not having as much control over your character =/= easier control. It's worse control, period.



I don't understand why I have to deal with a matter of your opinion. I certainly don't have to deal with an "almost fact." I just don't see how you think you're making an intelligent point here.



Ok, so "better sport" is, I suppose, your way of saying "more competitive." And I mean how are you going to off the bat say that I'm going to flame you and be hard headed and make any argument defending Melee? You haven't made an argument defending Brawl!

The closest you've come to an actual argument has been "it's packed with features!"



This is a great thing for me to point out. It's BECAUSE you're not a competitive person/player that you can appreciate Brawl. Someone like myself, who can't bear to watch someone lose who deserves to win, cannot sit and watch. I'd rather watch a superior player win all the time, and tell the loser to get better. That's the way it should be.

I understand your critisism, and let me tell you now, the comments were not addressed towards smarter competitive/casual players.

This is the argument I use to shut up the threads with names like "OMG I played Melee, and now I Knowz dat Brawl sux" and then try to back it up by saying they're competitive players.

 

[Veil2222]

I'm a competitive player, and have played Brawl 4 hours or more every day since its release. I play with a community of 30 or so competitive players, almost every single one of us disagree with the complaints about Brawl. We can combo, we can approach/break defense, the more skilled players win as much as they should, the matches are still really heated, we have amazing moments of timing and skill just like in melee. I don't know what else to say to the negative people on this board, because all I get when I say it's possible they're wrong is "that stuff only happens b cuz your all noobs".

The biggest bit of advice I can give is to let go of melee, if only to give Brawl an unbiased shot. I did terrible at Brawl for the first week or so I played because I kept on timing, spacing, attacking, and setting up like I did in melee. For every melee habit and mindset I broke, Brawl got better, and I got better at it. My matches were more exciting, and we would all get more competitive and into it because of that.

The only thing I can say is, it's been mine and my friends experiences that Brawl is just as good a game as melee, and it will be just as competitive if not more so than melee once the scene developes and settles. If negative people in this community don't pick it up, for whatever reason, two new people will step up in their place. I don't doubt I'm going to get a lot of outright negative posts saying I don't have any idea what I'm talking about, but hopefully at least one person will read this and break away from all this melee dogma. This is all I have left to say on the subject, and from now on I am a spectator only in this thread until some good debate ont he subject comes up again.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I'm a competitive player, and have played Brawl 4 hours or more every day since its release. I play with a community of 30 or so competitive players, almost every single one of us disagree with the complaints about Brawl. We can combo, we can approach/break defense, the more skilled players win as much as they should, the matches are still really heated, we have amazing moments of timing and skill just like in melee. I don't know what else to say to the negative people on this board, because all I get when I say it's possible they're wrong is "that stuff only happens b cuz your all noobs".

The biggest bit of advice I can give is to let go of melee, if only to give Brawl an unbiased shot. I did terrible at Brawl for the first week or so I played because I kept on timing, spacing, attacking, and setting up like I did in melee. For every melee habit and mindset I broke, Brawl got better, and I got better at it. My matches were more exciting, and we would all get more competitive and into it because of that.

The only thing I can say is, it's been mine and my friends experiences that Brawl is just as good a game as melee, and it will be just as competitive if not more so than melee once the scene developes and settles. If negative people in this community don't pick it up, for whatever reason, two new people will step up in their place. I don't doubt I'm going to get a lot of outright negative posts saying I don't have any idea what I'm talking about, but hopefully at least one person will read this and break away from all this melee dogma. This is all I have left to say on the subject, and from now on I am a spectator only in this thread until some good debate ont he subject comes up again.

Quoted for truth.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

I understand your critisism, and let me tell you now, the comments were not addressed towards smarter competitive/casual players.

This is the argument I use to shut up the threads with names like "OMG I played Melee, and now I Knowz dat Brawl sux" and then try to back it up by saying they're competitive players.

So... you're saying that your argument only works against stupid Melee players???

Your second paragraph basically sounds like you're paraphrasing all Melee players, including us in this thread, because our argument is essentially that we played Melee and Brawl sucks relative to Melee. And we can see this because of the depth of our "smash vision" - which most Brawl (but not all) supporters lack. It's almost like you're saying that your points work against poorly constructed, emotional based arguments, but don't hold up against real scrutiny.

I just don't understand how you can segregate your argument like that. Our criticisms are intended for even the most intelligent Brawl players, and your criticisms should be oriented likewise.


Edit: 56k, I realize you like the above point, but do you have to spam the thread with a massive quote just to say I agree? Can't you just make a post that says "^ i agree" instead of a giant quote?

 

[Plairnkk]

I'm a competitive player, and have played Brawl 4 hours or more every day since its release. I play with a community of 30 or so competitive players, almost every single one of us disagree with the complaints about Brawl. We can combo, we can approach/break defense, the more skilled players win as much as they should, the matches are still really heated, we have amazing moments of timing and skill just like in melee. I don't know what else to say to the negative people on this board, because all I get when I say it's possible they're wrong is "that stuff only happens b cuz your all noobs".

The biggest bit of advice I can give is to let go of melee, if only to give Brawl an unbiased shot. I did terrible at Brawl for the first week or so I played because I kept on timing, spacing, attacking, and setting up like I did in melee. For every melee habit and mindset I broke, Brawl got better, and I got better at it. My matches were more exciting, and we would all get more competitive and into it because of that.

The only thing I can say is, it's been mine and my friends experiences that Brawl is just as good a game as melee, and it will be just as competitive if not more so than melee once the scene developes and settles. If negative people in this community don't pick it up, for whatever reason, two new people will step up in their place. I don't doubt I'm going to get a lot of outright negative posts saying I don't have any idea what I'm talking about, but hopefully at least one person will read this and break away from all this melee dogma. This is all I have left to say on the subject, and from now on I am a spectator only in this thread until some good debate ont he subject comes up again.

No dude, you know why you get the response that you're just a newb? Because you're just a newb. If you think you can combo in brawl beyond up-tilts you're wrong. You can do sequential hits, but it's not a combo.

Talk all you want about how you're not a "newb" but let's see when you go to tournaments and you and your group of super amazing friends **** everyone cuz ur oh so good at comboing and breaking defense.

You're just another Brawl newbie, there's nothing special about you or your friends. you are, and always will be, a nobody.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

I'm a competitive player, and have played Brawl 4 hours or more every day since its release. I play with a community of 30 or so competitive players, almost every single one of us disagree with the complaints about Brawl. We can combo, we can approach/break defense, the more skilled players win as much as they should, the matches are still really heated, we have amazing moments of timing and skill just like in melee. I don't know what else to say to the negative people on this board, because all I get when I say it's possible they're wrong is "that stuff only happens b cuz your all noobs".

The biggest bit of advice I can give is to let go of melee, if only to give Brawl an unbiased shot. I did terrible at Brawl for the first week or so I played because I kept on timing, spacing, attacking, and setting up like I did in melee. For every melee habit and mindset I broke, Brawl got better, and I got better at it. My matches were more exciting, and we would all get more competitive and into it because of that.

The only thing I can say is, it's been mine and my friends experiences that Brawl is just as good a game as melee, and it will be just as competitive if not more so than melee once the scene developes and settles. If negative people in this community don't pick it up, for whatever reason, two new people will step up in their place. I don't doubt I'm going to get a lot of outright negative posts saying I don't have any idea what I'm talking about, but hopefully at least one person will read this and break away from all this melee dogma. This is all I have left to say on the subject, and from now on I am a spectator only in this thread until some good debate ont he subject comes up again.

That's great. I play with a group of competent players, some of whom actually have some name recognition to validate that title, and we all prefer Melee.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Edit: 56k, I realize you like the above point, but do you have to spam the thread with a massive quote just to say I agree?

Yes. It wouldn't be quoting for truth if I didn't. Plus it gives people another chance to read it.

Can't you just make a post that says "^ i agree" instead of a giant quote?

No. That would be worse. It wouldn't be quoting for truth if I did that. Plus it gives people another chance to read it.

 

[Shai Hulud]

lol at Veil playing with a group of "30 competitive players" that no one has ever heard of and who probably have never been to a real tournament.

 

[Brawler1432]

I'm a competitive player, and have played Brawl 4 hours or more every day since its release. I play with a community of 30 or so competitive players, almost every single one of us disagree with the complaints about Brawl. We can combo, we can approach/break defense, the more skilled players win as much as they should, the matches are still really heated, we have amazing moments of timing and skill just like in melee. I don't know what else to say to the negative people on this board, because all I get when I say it's possible they're wrong is "that stuff only happens b cuz your all noobs".

The biggest bit of advice I can give is to let go of melee, if only to give Brawl an unbiased shot. I did terrible at Brawl for the first week or so I played because I kept on timing, spacing, attacking, and setting up like I did in melee. For every melee habit and mindset I broke, Brawl got better, and I got better at it. My matches were more exciting, and we would all get more competitive and into it because of that.

The only thing I can say is, it's been mine and my friends experiences that Brawl is just as good a game as melee, and it will be just as competitive if not more so than melee once the scene developes and settles. If negative people in this community don't pick it up, for whatever reason, two new people will step up in their place. I don't doubt I'm going to get a lot of outright negative posts saying I don't have any idea what I'm talking about, but hopefully at least one person will read this and break away from all this melee dogma. This is all I have left to say on the subject, and from now on I am a spectator only in this thread until some good debate ont he subject comes up again.

This is the REAL competitive community, the one that speaks the truth about games.

 

[Shai Hulud]

^^^Says another guy no one has heard of.

 

[Brawler1432]

So... you're saying that your argument only works against stupid Melee players???

Your second paragraph basically sounds like you're paraphrasing all Melee players, including us in this thread, because our argument is essentially that we played Melee and Brawl sucks relative to Melee. And we can see this because of the depth of our "smash vision" - which most Brawl (but not all) supporters lack. It's almost like you're saying that your points work against poorly constructed, emotional based arguments, but don't hold up against real scrutiny.

I just don't understand how you can segregate your argument like that. Our criticisms are intended for even the most intelligent Brawl players, and your criticisms should be oriented likewise.


Edit: 56k, I realize you like the above point, but do you have to spam the thread with a massive quote just to say I agree? Can't you just make a post that says "^ i agree" instead of a giant quote?

It worked up to a point, sometimes i's hard to try and sound like your talking to one side of a group, and instead you end up offending the other side, for that I'm sorry, and I have a real argument coming up. Hopefully one everyone can agree on.

 

[Papapaint]

This is the REAL competitive community, the one that speaks the truth about games.

Funny how he posted the same thing I posted on, like, the second page of this thread.

We know we have to get out of the melee mindset. That doesn't mean that Brawl has what it takes to be a competitive fighting game.

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

DISCLAIMER

Competitive vs Competition

If you look it up in a dictionary, you will find a very different definition. Sometimes the dictionary is not the place to go. Words are clumsy tools we use to try to convey thoughts. We must define the word on our own.

The definition of competitive that has received the most support is the innate property of a game allowing better players to win consistently. This yields my mantra, that which I repeat over and over to prove my point.

Those who should win will win.

This definition doesn't really go with Melee. Here, let me give you a better definition if Melee truly is more competitive:

The definition of competitive that has received the most support is the innate property of a game allowing players who choose Fox, Falco, Shiek or Marth to win consistently. This yields my mantra, that which I repeat over and over to prove my point.

Those who choose their character according to extreme imbalances will win.

 

[Plairnkk]

This definition doesn't really go with Melee. Here, let me give you a better definition if Melee truly is more competitive:

You are an idiot.

 

[Brawler1432]

Funny how he posted the same thing I posted on, like, the second page of this thread.

We know we have to get out of the melee mindset. That doesn't mean that Brawl has what it takes to be a competitive fighting game.

We have to build it's competitivness, like t was with Melee, this takes time.

 

[Papapaint]

This definition doesn't really go with Melee. Here, let me give you a better definition if Melee truly is more competitive:

Azen and Mango laugh at you.

Brawler, if that's the case, then why is there so much opposition to Heavy Brawl, which has so far increased competitive viability for all but one character?

 

[Brawler1432]

Azen and Mango laugh at you.

Brawler, if that's the case, then why is there so much opposition to Heavy Brawl, which has so far increased competitive viability for all but one character?

If people didn't constant;y attack brawl, then maybe we might actually find it's competitve ability.
Is it impossible for u guys to give it a chance?

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

You are an idiot.

Sorry, I read my post again and realized I sounded like an ***, but I didn't mean it.

I was just simply trying to use an example to point out this:

How can a game be so competitive if it is so imbalanced?

I am not saying Brawl isn't imbalanced (it very much is), but still can anyone try to answer this for me?

 

[Magus420]

You can always pick out someone that doesn't really know what they are talking about when it comes to Melee when they list Falco 2nd before Marth and Sheik.