Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[RaptorHawk]

Maybe in mario kart your car will just randomly explode to make the game more "balanced."

lmao

I'm just saying it can also give you the tournament/save you EVEN IF YOU ARE THE ONE TO TRIP.

If I won cause of someone tripping, then I wouldn't feel like I deserve it. That's not how I want to win.

I don't have to see the same exact characters everytime I'm about to verse someone.

Oh yea.....give brawl a lil more time and all you're gonna see is the same boring camping characters.......I rather play against fox's in melee. At least it's entertaining.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

You want some more of the sad truth? Correct me if I'm wrong, but most people weren't requesting the same game. MOST OF ALL, most people didn't want the same exact characters to be good and the same to be bad. The fact that the game is more balanced is not something that anyone should be complaining about.

I want to address tripping: Tripping is obviously something pretty stupid that was put into the game, but it is not as bad as people make it to be. As much as it can **** you up, it can also save your ***. Your opponent will never (and I mean never) make a prediction and have correct spacing for you to trip into an attack (unless they are diddy kong for you smartasses). Also, tripping is just as likely to happen when you are running away (or just away from your opponent) as it is to happen during combat with your opponent. It can screw up spacing just as much as it can help it. Hugs said it can cost you a big tournament... I'm not disagreeing with that I'm just saying it can also give you the tournament/save you EVEN IF YOU ARE THE ONE TO TRIP.. No one likes tripping, I hate it just as much as anyone else, but it really is not as significant as people make it to be.

I'm sure that most people (non-space animal players) wanted the space animals to get nerfed, but not by taking everything away and just making them horrible. Well brawl gave people that much. I'm sure low tier players wanted their characters to improve, well they did (at least in my opinion) ness definitely improved (if you didn't then u're just comparing him to lucas), Yoshi improved, Pikachu got buffed up the ***. But you know what? I don't think it is honestly it was as a result of the sole fact that the characters were changed, but that the physics were changed. If you wanted brawl to be more like melee, then you would see really no changes in the tier list. You would not see space animals get nerfed and low tier characters get buffed.

So what am i really trying to say? That brawl was going to be a win-lose situation no matter what. It was going to be dissappointing whether it came out exactly like melee or significantly different. There is nothing in between. You have to choose you want to continue to ***** about the same exact characters being good or ***** about the game being entirely changed. One reason I'm happy about brawl is I don't have to hear people cry about how fox is top tier and whatever else they have to say. I don't have to see the same exact characters everytime I'm about to verse someone.

I'm not expecting this **** to sway people's opinions, but I really hope you can see why brawl could not satisfy everyone.

Eh, I just don't agree with you. Tripping, whether it causes you to lose or win, totally sucks. I don't want to win because a random game element screwed over my opponent, I want to soundly defeat him.

I played Fox and Mewtwo (and DK and Mario and Pichu and CF and a little Peach) in melee, and fully expected Fox to be awful in Brawl.

I expected Brawl to be different, but certainly not slower, shallower, and with a lower ceiling than its predecessor... how much sense does that make??? When I learned wavedashing, L-cancelling, real dashdancing was out, I thought "oh wow, they must have some really cool new ideas to keep the game deep and exciting"... then I played it and swore at the god**** game, on my first match.

The issue is not that the game is changed, the issue is that the game is inferior. I don't think many of us are complaining about characters that got nerfed or buffed, or that it's not just like Melee, it's simply that it's slow, not exciting, and has a low ceiling for improvement.

It's funny to me that everyone thinks the game is more balanced because of nerfing/buffing/new characters... the real reason, IMO, is that the same physics applies to every character, and we don't have as much control over our character. Characters are more unique in movesets and jumping abilities, but in my opinion, they're actually less unique overall. Recovery is almost irrelevant seeing as how you can just float back to the stage and the sweetspot is enormous on the ledge. Everyone is floaty and groundspeed isn't that varied (plus tripping makes dashing risky). The physics system makes it bland.

Idk... It just amazes me that in the sequel to Melee, we have less options and less speed and less maneuverability, and less to learn. I know all the Brawl fanbwoys are gonna say "It's only been out a month, blah blah", and that's true, but you seriously think there's hope for truly competitive Brawl? You're kidding yourself. We'll see who's right in a few months (and we'll disagree then too, I'm sure).

Sakurai must have been a total smash n00b to think that he was making a better game.

 

[Broly]

all right, i assume since the ceiling is so low, everyone here can win right? hmm, i'll check on that after the evo series and mlg circuit n see if i see phoenix, aho, Scar. i think its nub melee players that rant which it should be pc, isai, ken, chu that should *****. not those who are 'respected' in the community. those who have taken melee to the edge should be the critics. n yes i want the perfect game in 2 weeks PLEEAAASSSSEE! how boring would it be if everyone found all AT's right now. longetivity would have ***** it. time will unravel the game's competive nature.

-Broly out

 

[Plairnkk]

Sakurai must have been a total smash n00b to think that he was making a better game.

He was a total smash noob, he's just a giant scrub. Haven't you read his interview? The only reason melee was competitive was because he messed up. He'll make sure it doesn't happene again, and no smash games from this point on made by Sakurai will ever be competitive again.

 

[Plairnkk]

all right, i assume since the ceiling is so low, everyone here can win right? hmm, i'll check on that after the evo series and mlg circuit n see if i see phoenix, aho, Scar. i think its nub melee players that rant which it should be pc, isai, ken, chu that should *****. not those who are 'respected' in the community. those who have taken melee to the edge should be the critics. n yes i want the perfect game in 2 weeks PLEEAAASSSSEE! how boring would it be if everyone found all AT's right now. longetivity would have ***** it. time will unravel the game's competive nature.

-Broly out

Again, you're an idiot. Why do you have blind faith in a game that doesn't deserve it? The game shows no logical steps towards improvement yet you just think it should be there.

And as to your "top players" rant, m2k hates the game, wasn't he the best in the world? Chu hates the game. Cort hates the game. Tons of the top melee players hate the game, your bias is just overwhelming.

You can't just assume something to exist before ever seeing it, that's the most pisspoor attitude anyone could ever have. You can be optimistic but to look down upon people who do nothing but analyze the facts is just silly. If you want to live in a fairytale world where everything will work out in the end go for it, but for us people with logic and reasoning we'll live in the here and now.

 

[aho43]

i've beaten chu, km, chillin, in tourney. they'll ususually beat me, but i'm not a scrub. Broly who the hell are you?

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

all right, i assume since the ceiling is so low, everyone here can win right? hmm, i'll check on that after the evo series and mlg circuit n see if i see phoenix, aho, Scar. i think its nub melee players that rant which it should be pc, isai, ken, chu that should *****. not those who are 'respected' in the community. those who have taken melee to the edge should be the critics. n yes i want the perfect game in 2 weeks PLEEAAASSSSEE! how boring would it be if everyone found all AT's right now. longetivity would have ***** it. time will unravel the game's competive nature.

-Broly out

So you're saying that if I'm not one of the top 10 Melee players, that I have no right to criticize Brawl from a Melee perspective?? You're calling us noob Melee players???

f you man. I can hold my own against a pro, I've had some solid success in tourneys (w/mewtwo, no less), and there's a couple other guys in this thread who are likely much better than I am.

Plus, Isai and Ken don't even play competitively anymore.

You never know where talented players are gonna come from, didn't a 16 year old win the last national tourney with jiggs??

AND, it doesn't really even matter if you're an amazing Melee player... if you were at all competitive at Melee, you have the proper perspective to make a judgement. I'd like to know how many competitive Melee players would take the stance that Brawl is a better game... I can't imagine it's very many...

I'm not gonna respond to the "time will deepen the game" argument anymore, because it's not going to have any significant effects on strategy. The physics engine is simply too limiting.

 

[Alukard]

I won't go into too much detail, but the game was built so that if a player is strong in combat, just doing the same thing over and over again won't guarantee they'll always win over their opponents. There is a mechanism of accidents occurring, balanced so that the game's progress and results falter easily. Whether you win or lose, you enjoy a hearty laugh, and move on to the next round. I think this makes quite a good game..

And to all the brawl fan boys ... this man was supposed to b the savior ? >_> LAWLZ

Wow. That pretty much says it all, if it wasn't already apparent to anyone that Sakurai set out to make Smash into Rock Paper Scissors.



In a good, competitive, and truly balanced game, the appropriate response would be for other players to come up with strategies to counter that initial tactic. Not for the developers to coddle other players by handicapping the one using said effective strategy.

soo tru my friend

 

[Broly]

hmm, jus a nub marth player, best marth in texas actually, jus don travel too often, n yes i agree some ppl dont like the game, but has it even gone to tourny play yet, has there been an mlg yet? after it passes then judge. like i said, if theres 10,000 dollars up for grab can you win it? i seriously doubt it.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

cry moar

Hey guys, let's do a little more of this, maybe Brawl will change

 

[giantimi]

Actually, if you check the tournament forums there have been tournaments already. lol

 

[Lixivium]

hmm, jus a nub marth player, best marth in texas actually, jus don travel too often, n yes i agree some ppl dont like the game, but has it even gone to tourny play yet, has there been an mlg yet? after it passes then judge. like i said, if theres 10,000 dollars up for grab can you win it? i seriously doubt it.

I somehow doubt that unless you're FastLikeTree's joke account.

 

[Scar]

56K, why are you posting here? What a scrub. Your attitude is awful and not appreciated here.

and lol @ Broly. You are a scrub too. No one has heard of you, Aho>>>you.

 

[Broly]

thats my point, there will b tournies, over and over. will random ppl win, idk, will there be a dominant player, idk. time will tell. thats y i ask, if theres an mlg near you, will you win? cuz thats what i feel like wut the ppl of this thread are saying.

 

[Scar]

I'm not saying that I would EVER win, all I'm saying is that no one can say with confidence that they'll win. The game is ridiculously luck-based and arbitrary, and the ceiling is VERY VERY low. Anyone can compete at the top level.

 

[aho43]

having a low ceiling doesn't mean the best players still won't be the best. they'll be smarter than their opponents. having a low ceiling refers to the depth of the game.

 

[thumbswayup]

i like to compare sakurai to bush, how did a man with this mindset get so much power? someone with his philosophy should never have been behind making a fighting game. if he had it his way all sports matches would be ties, everyone would be forced to have equal skill, and no one would improve at anything.

i read the interview today, and i was utterly disgusted with his beliefs. its mindnumbingly insane to think a person like that would purposefully destroy a highly anticipated game by hardcore fans of melee just because he felt it was necessary to "set out to make sure the game did not over-emphasize the notions of victory and defeat". now, hold up, if there is no point in winning, doesn't this mean he intended for brawl to be a PARTY GAME?! right there, from the creator's mouth. this man wanted brawl to be a party game and nothing we do can change it.

brawl is fun, but boring very quickly. i hope you are right aho and that everyone will go back to melee. plank i didnt know chu and cort hated the game, i thought it was only m2k. that is music to my ears. the more pros we have hating brawl, the sooner we can all go back to melee. i dont mind playing both though, i just want tournaments for melee all the time.

 

[controlfreak7]

Just shut up dude, you're beyond stupid. Anyone who uses the argument IT'S NOT THE SAME GAME just needs to have their neck ****ing hung. Seriously, nobody wanted the same game. Melee had certain faults that we wanted fixed, and we wanted a SEQUEL. The problem is we essentially got a prequel. We didn't want to see the same game, but we also didn't want to see one that was obviously inferior.

You sir are an idiot, of course its not the same game in terms that it is the sequel. I'm just saying that whatever happened it was going to upset a lot of people. YOU CAN'T HAVE CHANGE IN THE ****ING GAME WITHOUT UPSETTING A LOT OF PEOPLE NOR CAN YOU KEEP THE GAME THE SAME WITHOUT UPSETING A LOT OF PEOPLE(just like you see here this topic is 11 ****ing pages of bull****). I don't recall using that argument justifying brawl because it is a different game.

Eternal phoenix fire gave a link to the page of an article of sakurai talking about his view on games and how he reflected his views in smash bros. DID YOU MISS THE POINT PEOPLE? SMASH BROS. NOT JUST BRAWL, everyone of the games, he tried to do something that would in some way allow everyone to win. In Smash Bros he had one simple thing... items, the only thing he did wrong to keep the game away from competition is to allow people to turn the items off. Phoenix fire gave an example at his 2nd attempt in melee... less hitstun and more defensive options, but that turned out to be a failure. BUT WHY? If you just look at it for a second... it is because of the loopholes that were left there that this game grew to be as competitive as it is. And these loopholes came to be part of the competitive style for every ****ing character in the game.

So now we have this new game brawl... he came up with even less hit stun, even more defensive options, and tripping. But despite this, he hasn't gone completely insane at least not yet... He hasn't put something in the game that means automatic death no matter what to make the game more balanced or make it so anyone could win. There has been tournaments and it seems obvious to me that the players that should win ARE winning which tells you that sakurai failed once again and we can only hope he will continue to do so as long as the smash series lives. What Sakurai doesn't understand is that competition is a big part of the world. He wanted to make a successful game, but how is he supposed to do that without blowing the competition out of the water, but expecting the "losers" to continue to be happy? Sakurai is a hypocrite and he doesn't even realize it.

Look dude, go through the character specific boards... Look at how many glitches are being found like everyday. Falco and snake have dash canceled up smashes.. Peach has a wavedash (even though it isn't literally a wavedash), fox has "jced shines" that allow him to cancel the dash animation, many characters have chain grabs. I guarentee you that you will find some new trick that you never knew about or thought of if you just skim character discussions. If we're finding things on a day to day basis, you can only imagine what the game will look like a year from now. Even if it doesn't match up to melee.

 

[Mew2King]

get the kishes or somebody to host a major melee tourney like FCD

speaking of which, where are those FCD vids at

you can easily get hundreds to attend melee tourneys, with hundreds of thousands of smashers around




btw above poster, it would have been really easy to make the game competitive but easy to pick up, melee did a fine job of that and if you don't think melee did a good enough job of that well just make small tweaks, not massive molestations to downgrade the engine.

you know the E for all demo had Crouch Canceling, Fast Falling to L-cancel moves, Dash Dancing, more hit stun, among other things that gimpyfish and dsf told me, but they decided to take it all away. Sakurai WENT OUT OF HIS WAY to make it not competitive, regardless of if melee being competitive was an accident or not, THE END RESULT is that brawl is way less skillbased of a fighter than melee is.

 

[Broly]

mayb melee will come back for local tournies, but not by sponsored ones. like halo, its over for them wheather communities like it or not. and if ur sayin it jus takes out smarting ppl, then ur saying u wont win because ur an idiot or dont use the full extent of the characters. mayb generally, brawl is insufficient, but i appreciate the use of knowledge to get certain characters to a successful level. n i do agree with an earlier post, ppl will complain whether brawl is this or melee, because their character is soo bad its useless. i like the balance n not just main the top tiers.

 

[Scar]

Smarter players will be smarter players, but IMO most of the guessing games and mindgames boil down to randomly guessing. Each option is as good as the next, unless it's a neutral position in which case approaching is a dumb idea.

Low ceilings mean that everyone can reach the top level of technical skill in like 45 minutes. So once everyone gets there then yeah the smartest players will win more. I guess. Unless someone who isn't THAT smart just happens to randomly guess right a bunch of times.

Edit: Control Freak, no one agrees with you.

 

[Alukard]

dam i wish brawl was never released =(

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

i like to compare sakurai to bush, how did a man with this mindset get so much power? someone with his philosophy should never have been behind making a fighting game. if he had it his way all sports matches would be ties, everyone would be forced to have equal skill, and no one would improve at anything.

That comparison reminds me of the Kurt Vonnegut short story where everyone who has advantages over other people has them somehow taken away...

Strong people have to lug huge weights around, smart people have devices installed that limit their concentration, beautiful people are marred, etc. Anyone know the one I'm talking about?

It's too bad that we can't break free and destroy the system like in the story. Stupid limiting physics engine... let's break it!!!


Edit: Control Freak, you couldn't be more wrong man. Normally I'd respond with a long diatribe railing against your arguments but it's not even necessary in this case, at all.

 

[Broly]

Smarter players will be smarter players, but IMO most of the guessing games and mindgames boil down to randomly guessing. Each option is as good as the next, unless it's a neutral position in which case approaching is a dumb idea.

Low ceilings mean that everyone can reach the top level of technical skill in like 45 minutes. So once everyone gets there then yeah the smartest players will win more. I guess. Unless someone who isn't THAT smart just happens to randomly guess right a bunch of times.

Edit: Control Freak, no one agrees with you.

wut u mean no one? I DO. ur just melee biased. thats it. u want an intellectual thread, YET ur biased to melee. if ppl make points on brawl, u'll jus say 'get out nub'. please get someone who actually listens to both sides, n not be on m2ks nuts.

 

[Lixivium]

That comparison reminds me of the Kurt Vonnegut short story where everyone who has advantages over other people has them somehow taken away...

Strong people have to lug huge weights around, smart people have devices installed that limit their concentration, beautiful people are marred, etc. Anyone know the one I'm talking about?

It's too bad that we can't break free and destroy the system like in the story. Stupid limiting physics engine... let's break it!!!

It's called Harrison Bergeron and Sakurai is the Diana Moon Glampers of Smash.

 

[giantimi]

I wonder how Sakurai would react if he saw this thread?

 

[Plairnkk]

He wouldn't understand why we don't just want everyone to have a good time and have a nice hearty laugh while playing.

 

[Scar]

wut u mean no one? I DO. ur just melee biased. thats it. u want an intellectual thread, YET ur biased to melee. if ppl make points on brawl, u'll jus say 'get out nub'. please get someone who actually listens to both sides, n not be on m2ks nuts.

False. This is why I call control freak a n00b.

You want some more of the sad truth? Correct me if I'm wrong, but most people weren't requesting the same game. MOST OF ALL, most people didn't want the same exact characters to be good and the same to be bad. The fact that the game is more balanced is not something that anyone should be complaining about.

His first point is worthless. No one is arguing that we wanted the same game. Second, it has yet to be clearly demonstrated that the game actually is balanced. We just haven't figured out the character matchups yet to say who is completely worthless and who is somewhat worthless and silly glitches that make characters unusable.

His points about tripping were very much "Tripping can help you." That's a scrubby attitude.

 

[giantimi]

Lol...unfortunately I don't think another smash game will be made...he did say in the Iwata Asks Interview that this would most likely be the last smash game.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

get the kishes or somebody to host a major melee tourney like FCD

speaking of which, where are those FCD vids at

you can easily get hundreds to attend melee tourneys, with hundreds of thousands of smashers around




btw above poster, it would have been really easy to make the game competitive but easy to pick up, melee did a fine job of that and if you don't think melee did a good enough job of that well just make small tweaks, not massive molestations to downgrade the engine.

you know the E for all demo had Crouch Canceling, Fast Falling to L-cancel moves, Dash Dancing, more hit stun, among other things that gimpyfish and dsf told me, but they decided to take it all away. Sakurai WENT OUT OF HIS WAY to make it not competitive, regardless of if melee being competitive was an accident or not, THE END RESULT is that brawl is way less skillbased of a fighter than melee is.

He's right.

I played the crap out of that Demo. Fox was sooooooo **** too.

Sonic...Oh god Sonic was amazing.

I tripped balls when I saw Gimpy dash dance with him. When Nick ***** with Diddy. Me and Mike haze ***** with Fox. I had an emotional orgasm when I did that epic combo with Fox. That kick *** Mario player. Me and Neal playing in the finals in the tournament. Me beating HugS?(That should have never happened). Me hanging with T!mmy, T0mmy & Pink Reaper and sharing a PB sandwich. It felt knida like Melee all over again.

The game was so good, and it was great the way it was. It was great for casual and competitive players, but they took all of that away. For shame Sakurai...for shame.

T_T

 

[Scar]

EPF... I'm so sad. That sounds beautiful. ....combos!

 

[Plairnkk]

i blame every single one of you who went to e-for-all and played brawl for ruining brawl.

Obviously Sakurai never followed everything competitive to a tee, so e-for-all was his test to see what else he needed to take out.

He watched you all play and read the reviews and decided what else he needed to remove to make the learning curve easier and remove competitiveness even more.

I BLAME YOU WEST COAST, YOU

 

[Broly]

Second, it has yet to be clearly demonstrated that the game actually is balanced. We just haven't figured out the character matchups yet to say who is completely worthless and who is somewhat worthless and silly glitches that make characters unusable.

yet ur bashing the game. saying time wont help the game. So which is it? we wait n see, or keep bashing the immature game? Contradicting your self isnt intellectual imho.

 

[Zankoku]

yet ur bashing the game. saying time wont help the game. So which is it? we wait n see, or keep bashing the immature game? Contradicting your self isnt intellectual imho.

If the game being relatively new is the only thing keeping us from knowing which characters actually are completely garbage, how would time help the game?

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Because...then we'd know which characters actually are complete garbage.

 

[Zankoku]

Ah, so time is helping the game by letting us realize how unbalanced it actually is...?

 

[Broly]

If the game being relatively new is the only thing keeping us from knowing which characters actually are completely garbage, how would time help the game?

i love how u jus say the garbage characters, i was referring to every character, good or bad, u are failing to realize that w/ great characters in the game comes great attention to their positive/negative attributes. in Brawl, 75 percent of the characters are good. so all that remains is seeking out their potential to create diversity and competition.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Ah, so time is helping the game by letting us realize how unbalanced it actually is...?

When you say unbalanced, do you mean characters or gameplay? The characters themselves are very balanced, but as someone mentioned earlier, the lack of balance lies in gameplay strategy. Camping currently dominates over any other playstyle in Brawl, that's where Brawl is unbalanced.

 

[Scar]

yet ur bashing the game. saying time wont help the game. So which is it? we wait n see, or keep bashing the immature game? Contradicting your self isnt intellectual imho.

I'm ignoring you from now on. The highlighted portion just is breaking my brain, it's so awful. Time won't help the completely observable, unchangable, limiting mechanics of the game.

Time however WILL tell which characters have good matchups against other characters, and how silly little things can make counter matchups, leading to imbalance. I'd rather time NOT take its toll on the game in that regard, because it's only going to make it gayer.

 

[Card]

He's right.

I played the crap out of that Demo. Fox was sooooooo **** too.

Sonic...Oh god Sonic was amazing.

I tripped balls when I saw Gimpy dash dance with him. When Nick ***** with Diddy. Me and Mike haze ***** with Fox. I had an emotional orgasm when I did that epic combo with Fox. That kick *** Mario player. Me and Neal playing in the finals in the tournament. Me beating HugS?(That should have never happened). Me hanging with T!mmy, T0mmy & Pink Reaper and sharing a PB sandwich. It felt knida like Melee all over again.

The game was so good, and it was great the way it was. It was great for casual and competitive players, but they took all of that away. For shame Sakurai...for shame.

T_T

Wait so...

After playing the E-For-All Version of Brawl, your opinion on the competitive worth, and the ceiling of depth, and everything... is opposite to your current feelings towards Brawl? (Your current feelings being that Brawl is a disappointment, etc...)

If this is true... I am not kidding you guys... but something seriously F*CKED UP happened at Sora Ltd. with the development of Brawl in the time gap between E-For-All and the Double Delayed Retail Release.

PS: Excuse my language, I'm still in shock if this is true.