Samus Vs. Dedede

[Sago]

Originally Posted by Xyro77 View Post
DDD vs SAMUS= 80-20 in DDD favor with NO ICG.

Samus has zair a missles which COULD collect a nice load of % on ddd. That is, untill they learn to power shield and approach. Once this happens they can CG across FD and throw for like 40-50% damage. This take 10 homing missles or 12 zairs to catch up to that massive amount of damage. Sure, we could try and F/D/U smash but it doesnt matter, your grabs are fast and long and if we mess up JUST ONCE....BOOOM 40-50% damage. THE ONLY THING WE CAN DO is weaken your shield slightly and then do a falling U-air to UP+B but even then thats on 11-14% damage. And even then, thats assuming u dont see it coming and uptilt.


DDD vs SAMUS= 100-0 in DDD favor with ICG.

Samus is part of the sad 6. You can infinite us(even thought u gotta pummel ever 4-5 grabs) till what ever you feel like then back throw for easy KOs. There is no hope and its 100% unwinnable for Samus. That is why i ban that tech at all of my events and try and get his ICG banned at each event i attend. It makes an already near impossible match-up, impossible.

I feel like this absolutely can not be true. This weekend at the MWC:East i played lains D3 in pools. I 2 stocked his d3 and ended up 2-0 him in the set. He is probably the best player in the midwest and top 3 D3 in the nation. I have played atomsk in ladder matches and they have been very close. My point is not to brag, but rather that if im beating these really good D3's with samus in a matchup that is supposedly 100-0 (yes ICG was on at MWC)

 

[tha_carter]

Personal matches dont matter for matchup ratios. It character vs character. That being said, samus has the tools available to avoid being grabbed by Dedede, while successfully attacking the shield.

Either way, thats just one persons out look on the matchup, which is very flawed. Its basically saying ANY character that Dedede can chaingrab, auto-loses. Which isnt the case.

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

admittedly I don't know much about the matchup... however the D3 v Link matchup definitely seems like 90:10 - DDD

 

[Hive]

if you have 2 stocked a ddd irl then that ddd either was not good or really didn't know the matchup. The matchup ratio is really horrendous for samus at high levels of play.
icg
cg- kills spacing/50%ish damage.
on stage kos not until about 160%
very hard to spike (aerials outprioritze)
waddle dee spam can keep up with samus when done right (not a joke)
he can ko you way earlier

This is definitely samuses worst matchup... sorry to be so blunt

the only thing samus can do against a ddd at high levels who knows the matchup is spam and ledge camp. getting within range will produce a grab on samus like 1 out of 3 times she tries it lol, even when done intelligently. That's not to say that I haven't beat ddds before, but that's really just bc mainly they didn't know the mathup and/or weren't good, point is- I think this is one of her 3 almost impossible matchups at high levels of play.

 

[Xyro77]

Nice try sago.


Hive sees what im talkin about

 

[Bimz]

Ive always thought DDD was one of samus's easier match ups compared to some. You're not alone dude.

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

You should'nt just spam, DDD is a fat monster, so try him sometimes make some combos. For Example try to approach with Uair , when he is on the ground, and it would be the best when you don't attack in front of him, better above and behind him, so no Shieldgrab
-> Uair + Usmash = Much Damage! for example
Don't get mad, Samus has much potenzial to do nice Combos.. true.

 

[DeadDisco]

When D3 spams his Dees, practically any ranged approach or attacks become blocked. It was like D3 was made to piss off Samus. The only time I feel like I have a great advantage over D3, is when he's off stage. At any moment D3 is offstage, send homings, full charges Z-air, and of course a spike if you feel you'll land it.

 

[NO-IDea]

Wait... what? D3 waddle dee spam>missile spam? I've NEVER had that problem before.

Double super missile is all it takes dude =.= The first collides with waddle dee (or goes over if D3 didn't shoot at same time) and the second either hits him, hits the shield or he dodges. I've never seen a D3 be able to spit faster than Samus's spam, let alone the fact that z-air collides with waddle dees anyway. Just make sure that the sh isn't too high that you trade off... 'cause waddle than z-airs XD.

Super missiles and z-air work fine in this match-up. It's just avoiding the icg that makes this one-sided. You can only spam away for so long until D3 pushes you over the edge (literally.)

 

[Hive]

waddle dee spam does have the ability to decently keep up with samus' spam when done right, I'm not kidding. He can put out a waddle dee in about the same amount of time. I didn't think this was true either until I tested it with someone who knows the character well.

 

[LanceStern]

Yea the waddle dee spam is legit. Turn on a level 9 computer dedede and it'll give you a glimpse of the annoyance.

BUT, to say it's 80 - 20 without ICG, I disagree. King Dedede still shouldn't be getting that close, he's too big of a target. Maybe 70 - 30 or 65-35 but not as lopsided as 80 - 20.

 

[Dekar173]

Go ahead and ask yourself this- was Lain high while you two were playing? He tends to do that :D

 

[Jupz]

Its definately not that bad with no infinite, also only 4 characters can be infinited not 6
More like 65:35 IMO, samus zair and missiles put pressure on Dedede which he dosen't like, and you can punish the grab with your own grab. Uair combos well on Dedede as well.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Personal matches dont matter for matchup ratios. It character vs character. That being said, samus has the tools available to avoid being grabbed by Dedede, while successfully attacking the shield.

Either way, thats just one persons out look on the matchup, which is very flawed. Its basically saying ANY character that Dedede can chaingrab, auto-loses. Which isnt the case.

That isn't the case but it's still hard for Samus:

1. Due to King Dedede's weight, recovery, and reasonably being able to cancel momentum using bair, it takes Samus a long time to kill King Dedede.

2. Due to King Dedede's range, Samus's only safe kill option is the charge shot which can be blocked by Waddle dees/doos and, again, is made less threatening if the King Dedede has decent DI and uses bair to help with the momentum.

3. King Dedede's offstage game is much better than Samus's and his offensive options beat out Samus's defensive options offstage. For example, King Dedede is one of the few characters who can reasonably survive Samus's dair spike even with bad DI thanks to his recovery.

4. Samus's zair may out range all of King Dedede's attack but it's more of an annoyance especially at lower percentages. King Dedede's longer than average spot dodge also makes it more managable. The above can be said about Samus's projectiles adding, as I said in point two, they can be stopped by Waddle Dees and Doos.

5. The chaingrab even if it's not an infinite.

6. King Dedede has much more kill options both on and offstage and, on average, can reasonably take out Samus by 100% on a medium stage.

Of these five things, I'd say point one and six are the biggest problems aside from the infinite. Like you said though, personal victories (especially if they were one time things) should not be taken into account when considering match ups.

 

[tha_carter]

^Samus is one of the heaviest characters in the game. The only moves, "on average", that can reasonable take out samus before 100% is Fsmash and a full charged down b. Which are amongst the worst kill moves in the game.

The only legit issue, is the first one...killing. But dedede is also easier to rack up damage on; considering samus can easily shield poke with missiles, z-air, fair, Uair and Usmash. Along with the fact one of her worst moves, Upsmash, takes off heavy damage and its EXTREMELY easy to hit on dedede...especially vs his spotdodge.



As for waddle dee spam being legit; i hope y'all are joking. It has ridiculous cooldown lag. If you wanted to be boring, you could airdodge the waddle dee, then Zair and it hit everytime. If you wanted to be cool, you could run into the waddle dee, power shield it (it will bounce upwards) and shoot a fully charged shot; which WILL hit. Yes...its that laggy. Try it. lol

Once again; its mostly PERSONAL flaws yall are mentioning... not character. Which should have no effect on the matchup ratio.

 

[LanceStern]

Dee spam is legit. But i agree 80:20 is skewed

 

[Hive]

Waddle dee spam can be pretty legit, though it is rare to see someone who has it down good... its not like no one's figured out how to air dodge zair spam lol. If it was that simple I wouldn't have even mentioned it, but you are underrating the opposing player's ability to decrease timing. The DDD has the capacity to shield zair as well as samus has the ability to air dodge waddle dees.

and the matchup is horrendous, anyone who doesn't think it is 70-30 at least or over simply hasn't played a good ddd.

 

[Serris]

and the matchup is horrendous, anyone who doesn't think it is 70-30 at least or over simply hasn't played a good ddd.

I've played Atomsk. 65-35, in my opinion.

 

[Rhyme]

I've played Atomsk. 65-35, in my opinion.

Wi-Fi definitely doesn't count.

D3 should not be able to out-spam Samus. Full jump double homing missile, Zair->missile, (NO-ID) double power missile...take your pick.

There are only three things that I know for sure about this match. 1. Retreating Fair is amazing. Hit D3's shield with 3 hitboxes, then DI away to FF. Those extra hitboxes after you back off his shield keep him from walking into a grab, but you will need to sacrifice some of your precious space to do this. 2. Bomb makes a great switch-up after Zair canceling. When D3 doesn't anticipate the bomb, his character is legitimately not fast enough to cross over it before the proxy frames begin (assuming your Zair was relatively tippered). D3 is usually smart enough to stay grounded, which means you get a free ranged attack on his shield before the fighting resumes. 3. You must land grab and Usmash. Grabbing is the only way you get D3 to doubt using his shield, which he will continue doing anyway. Assuming that D3 cannot make it to a ledge after your Uthrow, you should be getting AT LEAST an Uair/Usmash/dash attack/homing missile to follow-up. Usmash deals about 25 percent fresh (I don't recall exact percentage) and combos into itself at under twenty. Follow up with an aerial and you have a potential 50-60 damage to start out each stock.

That said, this is a **** matchup. Definitely Samus' worst in the game in my opinion. Samus has her tricks, but they can only get her so far.

Carter, please feel free to chime in. I would love to hear what you have to say.

 

[Throwback]

the issue with grabbing D3 is that if you miss, he takes a stock off you (after 60%, anyway). And grab is very dodgeable. Also I believe D3's dair goes through uair and usmash so it can be tricky to punish him for going high.

 

[Rhyme]

ICG is a standard ban at tournaments now. If you're somewhat near the edge, missing a grab should be about twenty percent (which isn't that hefty). There's a difference between being smart about taking risks and being reckless. Also, it's good to keep in mind that a dash grab has far more active frames near the end than a normal grab.

A buffered Usmash should beat it out. Even if it doesn't, D3 has enough landing lag after his incompleted Dair that you can hit him with the next Usmash directly out of that.

 

[Cherry64]

I've played Atomsk. 65-35, in my opinion.

I'd say that too on Wi-fi at least.

With a good connection it has the basis to count



Basically what rhyme said, ther's not way a D3 will be able to throw waddle D's at you faster tahn you can missile cancel. I find super misssiles really effective here, Basically when I see a D3 I spam to piss him off, especially in pools., I like to pick FD and they think its' a good idea, more room to chain grab me. I say it's 65-35 for D3 there. including the chain grab.

call me crazy lol. I like to camp lots and use throws a lot too and a lot of N air.

 

[powell651234]

The Samus player needs to combo the DeDeDe player, and bother him mentally.

DeDeDe mains get flustered where their fat character is getting tossed around. Fair to Nair, a nice run of zairs.

This matchup is tough, but if you can avoid getting grabbed fairly well, and get some combos running...it's winnable.

I don't think it is Samus' worst.

It could be.

 

[Cherry64]

Nah, Flaco and meta are her worst, D3 and marth are right behind those two though.
IMO anyway

 

[powell651234]

Nah, Flaco and meta are her worst, D3 and marth are right behind those two though.
IMO anyway

oli is worse than Marth...

to be honest, only REALLY good marths are hard.

A lot of mediocre marths have their sloppy aerial approaches pwned by zair.

 

[NO-IDea]

MK and D3 hands down worst match-ups. MK self-explanatory. D3, not as bad if ICG is banned but he still has CGs and hard to kill in general, let alone with Samus.

Falco comes next, but from what I've experienced, Falco gets Samus to like 120% and then tries to kill as Samus quickly catches up. The reason why Wario took Falco's place in the tier list is because Falco has trouble killing. He's not as scary as people make it out to be.

If you find a good marth, it's probably as hard as Falco. Rare to find one though... Neo from the east and MikeHaze from the west are the only significant ones I can think of.

 

[jpl315]

most places ban inf, so without that, i'd def say ddd is not the worst matchup......i think mk, olimar, and falco are harder

 

[Cherry64]

most places ban inf, so without that, i'd def say ddd is not the worst matchup......i think mk, olimar, and falco are harder

Agreed. so much that I cant' agree any more

 

[LanceStern]

Hey MikeHaze was just at our weeklies! Maybe I can ask him to do some friendlies and get some vids of the pwnage (to me).

Then I can get tips on what to do as Samus.

 

[Cherry64]

go fer it
I'd like to see your samus anyway

 

[Ravin]

Standing CG's are banned now. If I remember correctly. This fight isn't 100-0 D3. If you are not being CG'd, which is banned in most tournaments now, D3 has what over Samus then? Spamming Wads which Zair goes threw?

Even then, its not that bad. If not even in Samus favor. I have yet to lose to a D3 :/

Talk more out of your ***** plox.

 

[Cherry64]

Standing CG's are banned now. If I remember correctly. This fight isn't 100-0 D3. If you are not being CG'd, which is banned in most tournaments now, D3 has what over Samus then? Spamming Wads which Zair goes threw?

Even then, its not that bad. If not even in Samus favor. I have yet to lose to a D3 :/

Talk more out of your ***** plox.

Guess who's back, Back again, Ravin's back, from the dead.

once the chain grabs are gone I'd say it's even. samus can outspam D3 easy. So do that, he's slow at running and he's fat, he minazwel have bull's eyes all over him/B]

 

[NO-IDea]

I still don't see what stops D3 from walking-->power shielding--->walking---->power shielding---->grab.

I mean, you can only spam for so long until you've got no room. And even if he grabs you near the ledge, you're off the stage from f-throw and he proceeds to ledge-guard you.

I still give this 70-30 D3's favor.

 

[Cherry64]

Lets play wi-fi sometime. I'll show you Be D3 if you think you can win but walking shielding and walking some more

 

[Ravin]

D3 has a huge body, when his shield starts to decay the Zair can hit him even if he is shielding, like you would to DK.

Thats why walking shielding won't work, and if ICG's are banned, then its not difficult for samus to juggle D3 and rack of easy damage. Even if D3 is "hard" to kill, it is well known that heavy and big characters Vs Samus means she can rack up damage and chain attacks so quickly that a Ftilt will end up killing D3 if they arnt baited to any of her kill moves.

qq maor

 

[Xyro77]

I still don't see what stops D3 from walking-->power shielding--->walking---->power shielding---->grab.

I mean, you can only spam for so long until you've got no room. And even if he grabs you near the ledge, you're off the stage from f-throw and he proceeds to ledge-guard you.

I still give this 70-30 D3's favor.

you are 100% correct. the others dont know ****.

 

[Ravin]

IF Xyro believed in bombs, he wouldnt be getting gimped so much.


Burned..........................!

 

[LanceStern]

you are 100% correct. the others dont know ****.

You have the worst way of saying stuff. It's ridiculous.

 

[Xyro77]

You have the worst way of saying stuff. It's ridiculous.

its a gift!!!!

 

[Bimz]

dont mind xyro. he only blames his suckyness on samus and not himself.