Samus Vs. Dedede

[Cherry64]

someone searches nameee!
lolol

no one approve of above comment?

 

[LanceStern]

I thought you were cooler than that Lain?

Anyways, that "infinite combo" on dedede might work, but no player is ever that distracted! To perform the combo you have to:

A. Missile cancel the super missile at them.
B. Run behind the missile and short hop as it approached their face
C. Fast fall a dair immediately as they get hit.

I've tried it before and no-one just stands and lets the missile hit them when they see you running behind it. They are either shielding, jumping, rolling.... it's really tough.

Maybe you could disguise it with homing missiles.

 

[Cherry64]

I thought you were cooler than that Lain?

Anyways, that "infinite combo" on dedede might work, but no player is ever that distracted! To perform the combo you have to:

A. Missile cancel the super missile at them.
B. Run behind the missile and short hop as it approached their face
C. Fast fall a dair immediately as they get hit.

I've tried it before and no-one just stands and lets the missile hit them when they see you running behind it. They are either shielding, jumping, rolling.... it's really tough.

Maybe you could disguise it with homing missiles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8foMnMSmW2s
there you go.

 

[TKD]

The match-up of samus vs d3 is already 3/7 or 2/8 without the infinite. Samus has too hard of a time KOing such a heavy character, Dedede can edgeguard her and can perform the regular chaingrab. He's also much better at KOing (specially considering he can KO from a grab at around 100%, less if they don't know how to mash out).

 

[LanceStern]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8foMnMSmW2s
there you go.

It was very fun to watch and awesome to see. They performed it remarkably well.

But that DK got hit by a missile from like 10 feet away, I question his ability to shield or even spot dodge or shield-grab?

For the majority of the time, it's still very dangerous

 

[Xyro77]

@Xyro: Why don't you update the match-up thread (everyone else can help out in assembling the data too) so we can move on to Dedede and record all this information there?

very good idea. But i have a few questions i NEED answered before i put it in the log book.

1. Who wants to summarize this into the format that is normally used?

2. We need to agree on the match-up ratio. I will tell you now, 50-50(or ANYTHING in samus favor) WILL NOT be put up because you people are just flat out wrong. To even HINT at 50-50 or anything close to it shows your lack of GOOD ddd exp and just a general lack of smash exp.

3. Off topic but would some of you go to the log book at post your opinions on the CURRENT match-ups too? PLEASE!!!!

 

[Rhyme]

@Rhyme: Your logic is sound... but you sounded neutral. And intuitive. Not sure where you stand and I kind of want to. Kind of... in case my mind can possibly be altered.

I started in this thread thinking that D3 was Samus' hands-down worst match-up, an irreversable 80-20. I had played the match-up to an extent where I was no longer making noteable progress on it (unlike other "bad" Samus match-ups). After reading Carter's statements in particular, there are different strategies that I want to test. So, in a sense, you're right. I don't want to sound definitive anymore because I'm open to the idea that my previous viewpoint will change.

My stance is doubtful yet hopeful.

3. Off topic but would some of you go to the log book at post your opinions on the CURRENT match-ups too? PLEASE!!!!

I don't think that I know any of those match-ups well enough to help people with them. =/

*Edit* Lol @ Lain. You need to train (Sago) better so that he keeps his darn mouth shut. ; )

 

[Cherry64]

Sorry X I'm with him on the 3rd one, I have little to none EXP on any of those. wish i could help out on that though. Ehh I'll write one up when I actually know a bit about the match-up.

 

[LanceStern]

What can D3 do if we camp the air? He's not fast enough to get to us and still eats a LOT of missiles.

We ever try OOS screw attacks when they approach, or even the strangely disjointed utilt, which is probably our most viable killing move when D3 is in the air close range?

 

[Metatitan]

LOL this thread is so funny. Aircamping a DDD with samus? I think it's the other way around xD

DDD ***** samus, he's like, one of her worst matchups.

 

[Serris]

2. D3 can powershield missiles, so that negates the "damaging" effect of power missiles on his shield. Powershielding allows him the option to either roll, spot-dodge, full-jump->Dair or grab, a combination that has the potential of beating any follow-up that Samus could have in mind.

This is exceedingly poor reasoning. Any character can powershield any move. Trying to use that as a reason to justify a match-up is, quite frankly, extremely stupid, because any character capable of powershielding would be just as capable as Dedede in terms of punishing you. Powershielding is not guaranteed, nor does anyone do it often enough for it to factor into match-up analysis. It varies by player, not by character. By your logic, any character capable of powershielding is capable of beating Samus with little effort.

Work on your argument.

As for Dedede, Samus needs to play off her abilities as a damage-racking character in order to win this, and this means staying as far away as you can without becoming susceptible to Waddle Dee spam. Find the right distance. Use bombs to prevent him from grabbing you and hitting you with his f-tilt.

Keep.

Away.

But not to the point where you rely exclusively on projectiles.

Approach from the air, preferably with f-air, u-air, or d-air. Moves that can combo are crucial to this, because he'll grab you if he isn't stunned for long enough. Chain moves and chip away until he's got enough damage for you to finish him off with minimal risk.

It's still in Dedede's favor, but it's not as hard as everyone seems to think it is.

 

[DelxDoom]

To be quite fair, I honestly think the powershielding argument also deals with the ease of the move in question to be powershielded.

With practice, I believe smash missiles, homing missiles, and uncharged shots should be easily powershielded. Zair, usually included in the "group to powershield" comes out faster than these other three moves and I don't think powershielding them is too easy. If zairs are constantly being powershielded it means the opponent has found your rhythm.

Powershielding is a LOT like parrying in 3s.



Aircamping is usually only done with people with multiple jumps or float. =/
Bombs are so laggy that you have too small of a window to capitalize.

 

[Rhyme]

This is exceedingly poor reasoning. Any character can powershield any move. Trying to use that as a reason to justify a match-up is, quite frankly, extremely stupid, because any character capable of powershielding would be just as capable as Dedede in terms of punishing you. Powershielding is not guaranteed, nor does anyone do it often enough for it to factor into match-up analysis. It varies by player, not by character. By your logic, any character capable of powershielding is capable of beating Samus with little effort.

As DelxDoom already said, it's viable to use this reasoning for moves that are easy to powershield. I'm not making the claim that D3 should be powershielding homing missiles, Zair, OR charge shot. But, power missiles have oodles of start-up lag and are one of the easiest moves in this game to powershield.

Make all the incorrect assumptions that you would like. I'm going to go ahead and include anything that, in my opinion, is reasonable to expect from a good player at the top of D3's game who knows the Samus match-up.

 

[NO-IDea]

Can we all just agree that this is Samus's second worst match-up? Meta Knight being the first, obviously, and Falco being a close third. (You can disagree the third with me all you want, but if the Falco's playing to win, he's just going to camp you. It's legit.)

This will be the third time I'm saying this, but you can't possibly expect to win through projectiles alone, and you will mess up a spaced aerial and get grabbed. If you really want proof of this, have a friend who has decent skill at brawl and play a match with him as Dedede. Tell him only to walk and shield when he thinks you're going to fire something at him and grab when he thinks he can. Nothing else.

If he can grab you at least 3 times, then expect a pro Dedede main to AT LEAST grab you three times, not to mention mix in some other moves to rack up damage. If you managed to kill Dedede without him grabbing you, well good luck repeating that in the tournament scene.

Any character can power shield, but Dedede has the best Oos option against Samus in the cast. That, is at least what I think Rhyme's argument was, Serris.

 

[Sago]

haha lain im not trying to brag or offend you im just saying that for the longest time people have thought samus d3 is like 100-0 and i find it to be a very easy matchup no matter what d3 im playing.

 

[Xyro77]

im done with this thread. holy ****

 

[Uffe]

So you're basing a match up solely off an infinite? What are they going to do without their infinite? There are a number of neutral stages that have platforms that D3 is unable to really do his infinite. The only neutral you truly have to avoid is Final Destination. Even so, you could simply go ZSS if you felt that D3 was abusing his CG's. An infinite alone does not determine a match up.

Samus may lack the KO potential to defeat D3 at an early percent. But I assure you that Samus can gimp her opponents, spike her opponents and even have them pushed further out with her zair. Your barrage of projectile may not surpass D3's, but your zair goes through everything and goes long range. If you're getting grabbed, chances are you're not spacing good enough. If you're on a stage with platforms, use those to your advantage. As long as you're out of his reach, there's not much he can do to you.

If you can get him off the stage, learn to edge guard him. Use whatever means to keep him at bay. Don't just think, "Oh, it's D3, no point in really trying." Seriously figure out what you can do to D3. I don't believe it to be 100-0, D3 or even 70:30/65:35. If anything it's probably 60:40. At least if you learn the match up, you won't have such a hard time with him.

 

[NO-IDea]

So you're basing a match up solely off an infinite? What are they going to do without their infinite? There are a number of neutral stages that have platforms that D3 is unable to really do his infinite. The only neutral you truly have to avoid is Final Destination. Even so, you could simply go ZSS if you felt that D3 was abusing his CG's. An infinite alone does not determine a match up.

Samus may lack the KO potential to defeat D3 at an early percent. But I assure you that Samus can gimp her opponents, spike her opponents and even have them pushed further out with her zair. Your barrage of projectile may not surpass D3's, but your zair goes through everything and goes long range. If you're getting grabbed, chances are you're not spacing good enough. If you're on a stage with platforms, use those to your advantage. As long as you're out of his reach, there's not much he can do to you.

If you can get him off the stage, learn to edge guard him. Use whatever means to keep him at bay. Don't just think, "Oh, it's D3, no point in really trying." Seriously figure out what you can do to D3. I don't believe it to be 100-0, D3 or even 70:30/65:35. If anything it's probably 60:40. At least if you learn the match up, you won't have such a hard time with him.

Learn the match-up? Samus mains worry more about D3 knowing the match-up than anything. It's not the infinite that defines the match-up either, it's the simple fact that D3 is a good character. He has a simple way to rack up damage and easy to use kill moves that need no set-up. So what if Samus is a heavy-weight? Racking her up shouldn't be a probably because d-throw never increases in knockback.

She can't spike a good D3. U-air comes out faster and outprioritizes it. For that same reason, it would be horribly to be above D3, including platforms. U-tilt goes through all neutral platform stages except for Smashville.

Z-air may go through everything but shield blocks everything save for a grab. And risking your own grab will reward you half the time, the other half punishing you even harder.

Now I'm not saying this match-up is unwinnable. Samus can easily rack up damage once she gets started. Her z-air does beat D3's waddle dee spam. And her missiles can do some major shield weakening into eventual z-air shield poking. Not to mention knocking him off the stage followed up by some good edge-guarding results in a free hit once D3 up+bs. In fact, practically the only way to land the killing move would be to force D3 into his up+b. In fact, that's practically the only way to legitimately play the match-up: racking up damage long-range and forcing his Up+B.

But once you're pushed off the stage, don't expect the D3 to sit there and wait; D3 has a fairly decent edge game as well.

We don't argue that the MK match-up is 100-0 MK's favor. Rather, 80-20 (or in some extreme cases, 90-10.) D3 can't be above that and I don't think he's as hard to face as MK. So take whatever number you will.

"Knowing the match-up" is great and all, but if the D3 knows the match-up too, you're back to square one and the obvious truth: D3 is a good character and Samus is an average one.

We might as well keep this thread open so we don't have to discuss the D3 match-up in the other thread (if we even get there.) Not to mention it is the iconic bad match-up for Samus so it should hold it's own thread anyway. =/

 

[Uffe]

I still think it's a 60:40 match up, D3. No way in hell it's 70:30/65:35. Sorry, but D3 is a large target unlike MK. As for platforms, if he really wants you, then you'll force him out of camping. A good D3 can still get stomped by a good Samus whether or not both know the match up.

 

[Sago]

She can't spike a good D3. U-air comes out faster and outprioritizes it.

=/

You can spike or edgeguard anyone its just a matter of limiting there recovery options and then reading what there going to do.

 

[DelxDoom]

I still think it's a 60:40 match up, D3. No way in hell it's 70:30/65:35. Sorry, but D3 is a large target unlike MK. As for platforms, if he really wants you, then you'll force him out of camping. A good D3 can still get stomped by a good Samus whether or not both know the match up.

D3 can outspace Samus by eating missiles with shield/bair and outranging her aerials and tilts and stuff.

the trick is the confidence

 

[Uffe]

D3 can outspace Samus by eating missiles with shield/bair and outranging her aerials and tilts and stuff.

the trick is the confidence

Shielding is diminished by multiple hits as well as being up. Shielding is also countered by grabbing. Zair cuts through all aerial attacks, unless I missed something. Also, if both characters are in the air, they'll either out prioritize one another or clank. Samus is also quicker in the air than D3.

 

[LanceStern]

You don't want to try grabbing D3 unless it's coming after a non-sweetspotted zair. The frame trap we were talking about.

Otherwise you probably want to stay off the ground.

 

[NO-IDea]

There's a counter for everything D3 does to defend himself from spam. You can deal a great deal of damage and get him to killing percentage. Then you have to land the killing blow which D3 mains will not give away so easily.

There's one counter for every mistake you make against him. His chain grab can deal a great deal of damage and get you to killing percentage... and there's nothing you can do. And then he has no problems killing you because A) he's heavier meaning he can trade blows and B)even if he can't land the killing blow right away, you still have to approach to kill.

I'm sorry, but I'm looking at it realistically. There's nothing wrong with admitting Samus has some faults and extremely skewed match-ups in the wrong direction. Having people believe it's 60-40 means out of ten matches, with both players experienced with the match-up and somewhat familiar with each other's playstyles, Samus should win 4 matches. I don't think that's true.

In order to really solve this, we need some videos. There aren't any D3 vids in the celestial archives. Someone get on with that (I can't do crap because my ******* partner is still traveling the world. He'll be back when the semester starts again.)

 

[DelxDoom]

DDD's bair and grabs are really scary bro

 

[-Crews-]

im done with this thread. holy ****

refer to my previous post bro

 

[DelxDoom]

okay

who's up for some Samus vs my horrible DDD on horrible Wifi? :D

 

[Bimz]

My DDD is pretty beastly. I'll play ppl that need more experience.

 

[IsmaR]

Why is it that everything that involves Dedede involves arguing to no end? How you pronounce his name, whether he's a penguin, duck, eagle(he's definitely an eagle, I said it), his match-ups, etc. I figure I can't argue with people on this, just like the other Dedede arguments.

tl;dr - What Xyro said.

 

[Crystanium]

Thread closed upon request.

Take this to the match-up thread, ladies and gentlemen. Try to keep it cool, also.