NO-IDea
Smash Lord
Indeed he does.
Cherry: I would take you on in that challenge but you know I suck at w-fi. Ask a D3 main who plays wi-fi for testing and report the results back to us. XD
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Samus Vs. Dedede
- Thread starter Sago
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Cherry: I would take you on in that challenge but you know I suck at w-fi. Ask a D3 main who plays wi-fi for testing and report the results back to us. XD
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
no. i only lose to players who are better than me and broken ****. Thats about it.
Cherry64
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Hahahaha Allan stop it you will get in troubs again.
Eh I'll give it a shot, I've beaten a lot of D3 mains, as soon as I see that fat turd I spam like it's my religion. Also Noid, Grabs. Missile cancel to missile, but hey, I don't know ****
Eh I'll give it a shot, I've beaten a lot of D3 mains, as soon as I see that fat turd I spam like it's my religion. Also Noid, Grabs. Missile cancel to missile, but hey, I don't know ****
Rhyme
Smash Lord
Cherry64
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Giver Dex I'll do it. And your more than welcome to chain grab me
Bimz
Smash Cadet
maybe the dededes you play fall into that first category
Hive
Smash Lord
grab is such a horrible move against ddd lol, who would risk a 13% payoff for a 50% cg if its avoided?
I say 50:50, Samus can play so gay if she needs to it's ridiculous, I haven't lost to any Dedede's since ICG have been banned (and that includes all the OOS players at Sin that used Dedede)
However I do lose to meta knights =(
Honestly, Dedede is huge, spam homing missiles to force them where you want them
for example; they roll = buffered d tilt, the use jumps = use uair right away or up at the right time etc
Use zairs between missiles at the right times to hit
Use short hop smash missile and standing missile right after to kill shield
Getting pushed too far back? Grab the ledge and play good on the ledge (hella important skill imo)
Dedede will be at like 200% in no time, then he'll grab you a couple times and you'll be at 200% in no time too (hint: avoid getting grabbed with sidedodges to buffered up-b's)
It's hella even imo
and if you really wanna think about it, Dedede players have know idea how to play against Samus, hence favor is on our side, hence why I don't lose to giant targets i can practice comboes on.
However I do lose to meta knights =(
Honestly, Dedede is huge, spam homing missiles to force them where you want them
for example; they roll = buffered d tilt, the use jumps = use uair right away or up at the right time etc
Use zairs between missiles at the right times to hit
Use short hop smash missile and standing missile right after to kill shield
Getting pushed too far back? Grab the ledge and play good on the ledge (hella important skill imo)
Dedede will be at like 200% in no time, then he'll grab you a couple times and you'll be at 200% in no time too (hint: avoid getting grabbed with sidedodges to buffered up-b's)
It's hella even imo
and if you really wanna think about it, Dedede players have know idea how to play against Samus, hence favor is on our side, hence why I don't lose to giant targets i can practice comboes on.
Rhyme
Smash Lord
Don't grab until you're near the edge and it won't be such a high percentage risked. Even if you take 30 damage, D3 now knows that you're willing to attempt a grab. Enough attempts (or successful grabs) will get him spot-dodging like crazy which allows you to punish his foolishness and set him up for extra damage.
Think about it like Snake pulling a grenade on himself. He may take grenade+attack while his opponent only takes grenade damage, but it's still a positive to Snake overall. When done correctly, grabbing will be an overall positive to Samus' gameplan.
A match-up ratio is only accurate when both players are familiar with the match-up. You can't say that it's even because you **** D3 players who didn't know what a Samus was until you 2-stocked them.
Hive
Smash Lord
I'm sorry but I have to disagree that there is any way that it is an even matchup, spamming is effective here, but not THAT effective at high levels, DDD can make up for huge spam patterns with one grab/dtilt, and waddle dee spam is not that bad at range. Doing exactly what you've said is what I do in the DDD match (spam-> get pushed to ledge game-> regain spacing), but it will only work on DDDs effectively who are very unfamiliar with the matchup imo.
@rhyme- trust me, grab is a horrible idea.
@rhyme- trust me, grab is a horrible idea.
tha_carter
Smash Ace
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Can someone LIST the "MANY" issues Samus has in this matchup. So i can tell you how samus has the capabilities to get around that.
As ive said, most of its PERSONAL issues. Which doesnt belong in a matchup discussion.
As ive said, most of its PERSONAL issues. Which doesnt belong in a matchup discussion.
Cherry64
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I dunno, I'd say 60-40 with ICG gone. double missile lots, I prefer super missiles here if he jumps over them and keeps jumping use U air. a few Z airs and stuff, mix up your game plan enough so he won't see your patterns and it should be a bit easier, his stupid B air can destroy our missiles. but that's why we double missile
opnly reason for 60-40 is he has better KO options, and set ups.
opnly reason for 60-40 is he has better KO options, and set ups.
Rhyme, i didn't say them not knowing how to play Samus affects the 50:50 ratio that i proposed. I meant favor is on our side ON TOP of the 50:50 ratio i proposed, hence explaining me winning against Dedede's
it's not that hard of a matchup in my opinion it just requires LEARNING it.... but i guess that's just me (and a couple of others)
it's not that hard of a matchup in my opinion it just requires LEARNING it.... but i guess that's just me (and a couple of others)
Cherry64
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Lol I'd say Ryhme and I haven't had much trouble with it. Dryn doens't either he changes into ZSS right from the start.
but Carter is right, list what you have probs with and we'll de-bunk it.
btw this is the most tudor has posted in samus boards in like...4 months...
stay and chat a bit won't cha lol
but Carter is right, list what you have probs with and we'll de-bunk it.
btw this is the most tudor has posted in samus boards in like...4 months...
stay and chat a bit won't cha lol
Hive
Smash Lord
I've played way too many DDDs there is no learning it at high levels to produce a good chance of victory, the only chance samus has is to hope the DDD has trouble knowing the matchup and approaching.
Here's why:
-CG and ICG- obviously **** samus, and icg is not banned at the solid majority of major and wc tournaments, and very hard to break out of especially after 50% when it is buffered. Samus already has a scary time fighting close range, but given DDD grab's speed and range there is not much she can do here in terms of reasonable risks. She simply can't play short range, even when fighting intelligently a pro DDD will get the grab off at least about 50% of the time you approach (even when you mask approaches with super missiles, etc...). Each cg does about 50% damage since the end chains into dtilt and completely destroys her spacing in the match making it easier to get another cg, and icg does even more. Think about it, at that point their whole game is focused on getting the grab, they are waiting for you to approach or have spam openings, the ddd will be smart enough to land the shield/spot dodge (which is very good) when samus approaches and lead into a grab or grab her straight out of any short range moves. Too many people underrate his ability to get this one move off bc they've faced DDDs with bad ability to approach which there are many. Yea he's easy to spam, but spamming alone is not enough to stop him from being able to approach completely, and especially when its only pure spamming and you can not take advantage of openings created by the spams for grabs/combos as you would normally bc it will be an unreasonable risk. Plus samus' weakness at killing works against her bc she has to approach within grab range each time she wants to land her main onstage kill moves (bair, dtilt, fsmash...), every time she tries to land a single ko move in this situation she will be at a grab risk, unless she has a fully charged charge shot which she won't bc ddd will not let her build that up w/o approaching. BC her kill moves are very situational and the same or shorter range than DDDs grabs, this means putting her into grab risk every time she needs a ko. And, conversely, just 2-3 grabs puts samus into ko range for ddd.
- DDD can KO samus way earlier than samus can ko him. His aerials outpriortize samus' and his upb has super armor, there is no way to get the spike effectively in this game against good ddds. This forces samus to have to go for the onstage ko. Besides DDDs ko moves being far less situational, easier to hit, and stronger than samus' his weight also provides another issue here. Dtilt does not ko ddd until well into the 160% range (without DI). fsmash and bair likewise have similar percentages. DDD on the other hand can ko samus with bair, utilt, and smashes easily in the early 100%s. And like I said above samus must get into grab range to land them. This means samus must deal out 150% the damage that the DDD is dealing to her.
-The main tactic for going against ddd is to spam and ledgecamp. But ledgecamping while less risky then onstage combat still puts samus in an easy icg and damage situation. Good DDDs generally catch on fairly quick with samus' ledgehop aerials and ledge spams, if they are near the edge it is entirely possible they can block to icg, inhale as she gets up, ftilt or fsmash (ko and wide hitbox) and hit you on the get up or on the ledge, or go for the dair (which has absurd range, and disjointed hitbox, ->virtually very little risk), etc... DDD is by no means at a disadvantage at this spot. Waddle dee spam too can be used too (and I believe DDD also has a ledge infinite here).
-Samus' spam is kept up with waddle dee spams. Yes, it does (I know how lame it sounds at first glance!). I didn't believe it either at first, but that doesn't make it less true. Waddle dees come out at a very close rate to samus' spams, but in any case they make samus' spams predictable since airdodging through them and then spamming forces the spam to occur right after the waddle dee spam which is easily shielded. They also come out at varied timing, especially gordos which make it very hard to predict well. DDD can shield samus' spam in this situation as well as she can airdodge and shield his own.
-DDD doesn't suck at approaching when they know the matchup as much as people think. Shielding, Spot dodging, multiple jumps, etc... give ddd the ability to approach within range, not as well as other characters but enough to gain an advantage.
-DDD has a better time offstage than samus, his multiple jump bairs and upb can juggle samus far off the stage when she is in her vulnerable bomb jumps...
-DDD has a much better counterpick game than samus, even if samus does win the first game DDD has a pretty secure victory on levels with walkoffs and walls, and areas with bad short range spacing. DDD will **** on Delfino, Castle siege, and others imo.
-Bair, utilt, and bthrow **** samus, enough said... etc....
This whole match is uphill for samus... severely so, which is the reason I am arguing this so fiercely in this. I wouldn't be this adamant about it unless I was 100% convinced it is true. I seriously don't see any way around this, I have tried almost all of your suggestions too, they just don't work as well as people would hope against non-strawman ddds.
@also I know I sound pissy here, I'm not, and I respect all of your opinions on this greatly... but I really really think this matchup is her worst, and I've had a lot of exp to convince me of that assumption.
Here's why:
-CG and ICG- obviously **** samus, and icg is not banned at the solid majority of major and wc tournaments, and very hard to break out of especially after 50% when it is buffered. Samus already has a scary time fighting close range, but given DDD grab's speed and range there is not much she can do here in terms of reasonable risks. She simply can't play short range, even when fighting intelligently a pro DDD will get the grab off at least about 50% of the time you approach (even when you mask approaches with super missiles, etc...). Each cg does about 50% damage since the end chains into dtilt and completely destroys her spacing in the match making it easier to get another cg, and icg does even more. Think about it, at that point their whole game is focused on getting the grab, they are waiting for you to approach or have spam openings, the ddd will be smart enough to land the shield/spot dodge (which is very good) when samus approaches and lead into a grab or grab her straight out of any short range moves. Too many people underrate his ability to get this one move off bc they've faced DDDs with bad ability to approach which there are many. Yea he's easy to spam, but spamming alone is not enough to stop him from being able to approach completely, and especially when its only pure spamming and you can not take advantage of openings created by the spams for grabs/combos as you would normally bc it will be an unreasonable risk. Plus samus' weakness at killing works against her bc she has to approach within grab range each time she wants to land her main onstage kill moves (bair, dtilt, fsmash...), every time she tries to land a single ko move in this situation she will be at a grab risk, unless she has a fully charged charge shot which she won't bc ddd will not let her build that up w/o approaching. BC her kill moves are very situational and the same or shorter range than DDDs grabs, this means putting her into grab risk every time she needs a ko. And, conversely, just 2-3 grabs puts samus into ko range for ddd.
- DDD can KO samus way earlier than samus can ko him. His aerials outpriortize samus' and his upb has super armor, there is no way to get the spike effectively in this game against good ddds. This forces samus to have to go for the onstage ko. Besides DDDs ko moves being far less situational, easier to hit, and stronger than samus' his weight also provides another issue here. Dtilt does not ko ddd until well into the 160% range (without DI). fsmash and bair likewise have similar percentages. DDD on the other hand can ko samus with bair, utilt, and smashes easily in the early 100%s. And like I said above samus must get into grab range to land them. This means samus must deal out 150% the damage that the DDD is dealing to her.
-The main tactic for going against ddd is to spam and ledgecamp. But ledgecamping while less risky then onstage combat still puts samus in an easy icg and damage situation. Good DDDs generally catch on fairly quick with samus' ledgehop aerials and ledge spams, if they are near the edge it is entirely possible they can block to icg, inhale as she gets up, ftilt or fsmash (ko and wide hitbox) and hit you on the get up or on the ledge, or go for the dair (which has absurd range, and disjointed hitbox, ->virtually very little risk), etc... DDD is by no means at a disadvantage at this spot. Waddle dee spam too can be used too (and I believe DDD also has a ledge infinite here).
-Samus' spam is kept up with waddle dee spams. Yes, it does (I know how lame it sounds at first glance!). I didn't believe it either at first, but that doesn't make it less true. Waddle dees come out at a very close rate to samus' spams, but in any case they make samus' spams predictable since airdodging through them and then spamming forces the spam to occur right after the waddle dee spam which is easily shielded. They also come out at varied timing, especially gordos which make it very hard to predict well. DDD can shield samus' spam in this situation as well as she can airdodge and shield his own.
-DDD doesn't suck at approaching when they know the matchup as much as people think. Shielding, Spot dodging, multiple jumps, etc... give ddd the ability to approach within range, not as well as other characters but enough to gain an advantage.
-DDD has a better time offstage than samus, his multiple jump bairs and upb can juggle samus far off the stage when she is in her vulnerable bomb jumps...
-DDD has a much better counterpick game than samus, even if samus does win the first game DDD has a pretty secure victory on levels with walkoffs and walls, and areas with bad short range spacing. DDD will **** on Delfino, Castle siege, and others imo.
-Bair, utilt, and bthrow **** samus, enough said... etc....
This whole match is uphill for samus... severely so, which is the reason I am arguing this so fiercely in this. I wouldn't be this adamant about it unless I was 100% convinced it is true. I seriously don't see any way around this, I have tried almost all of your suggestions too, they just don't work as well as people would hope against non-strawman ddds.
@also I know I sound pissy here, I'm not, and I respect all of your opinions on this greatly... but I really really think this matchup is her worst, and I've had a lot of exp to convince me of that assumption.
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
AT the HIGHEST level of play with out ICG and WITH both characters knowing BOTH characters.
DDD is 80 to samus 20. Due to DDD just flat out being able to handle the situation better.
1. DDD can u-tilt ANY attack you come down on him with and WIN. Assuming you try it.
2. DDD can simply WALK(means no tripping) and powershield even the MOST advanced
projectile set-ups(missle to cg/missle to zair/ missle to zair to cg).
3. DDD doing just ONE streak of a CG is 45-50%(assuming they do ONE pummel per grab and not ONE standing grab).
4. DDD u-air(if he wants to fight u in the air) goes through ALL samus air approaches.
5. DDD back throw does 16% damage AND it can KO.
6. DDD spam stops lock on missles and delays attacks.
7. DDD b-air KILLS and he can WOP with it.
8. DDD lives longer than you(now add DI to it, dear god.........)
9.DDD has one of the fastest grabs alive AND it has invisible range.
theres more but i can already tell you people havnt played good DDDs or you have payed good DDDs in he right state of mind(the example with lain)
DDD is 80 to samus 20. Due to DDD just flat out being able to handle the situation better.
1. DDD can u-tilt ANY attack you come down on him with and WIN. Assuming you try it.
2. DDD can simply WALK(means no tripping) and powershield even the MOST advanced
projectile set-ups(missle to cg/missle to zair/ missle to zair to cg).
3. DDD doing just ONE streak of a CG is 45-50%(assuming they do ONE pummel per grab and not ONE standing grab).
4. DDD u-air(if he wants to fight u in the air) goes through ALL samus air approaches.
5. DDD back throw does 16% damage AND it can KO.
6. DDD spam stops lock on missles and delays attacks.
7. DDD b-air KILLS and he can WOP with it.
8. DDD lives longer than you(now add DI to it, dear god.........)
9.DDD has one of the fastest grabs alive AND it has invisible range.
theres more but i can already tell you people havnt played good DDDs or you have payed good DDDs in he right state of mind(the example with lain)
Cherry64
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don't use homing missiles in this match up xyro you'll find it so much easier, Camp balls with super missiles and z air. screw approaching, play gay, camp then run then camp some more, pick FD and mind game for your life.
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
number 3 and number 2 defeat your quote.
LanceStern
Smash Lord
In no way do you sound "pissy" hive, that was intelligent, well thought out, fair, and all in all great way to defend the horrendous matchup Samus has agaisnt DDD. I can somewhat believe you.
Xyro, you ened to take lessons from that. No-one will listen to your defense otherwise when you're saying "they dont' know ****" and garbage like that. Your last post right above me though is pretty good
Xyro, you ened to take lessons from that. No-one will listen to your defense otherwise when you're saying "they dont' know ****" and garbage like that. Your last post right above me though is pretty good
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
It make no diff if you guys heed my words or not. When u fight GOOD ddds at thier highest level you will realize what i said was true.
Sago
Smash Lord
Xyro are you saying lain is not a good DDD because last time i checked he arguably is the best player in the midwest and one of the best best DDD's in the nation. Now i promise im not trying to brag im just saying i have played a good D3 and come out triumphant in a tournament match. I have never had a problem with DDD and dont think i ever will.
As for what tudor said i agree that samus can just play very campy. Grab is safe but only if you zair into it.
50-50 Samus Dedede maybe even 40-60 samus favor. DDD is one of my easiest matchups
Things samus has on DDD
1.D3 is HUGE. Makes spaming insanely easy.
2.Samus's range game helps to stay away from ICG (Which is still legal in parts of the midwest and was legal when i played lain)
3.Samus has a guaranteed infinite combo on D3. Smash missle->dair->jab lock...and yes this is an infinite on d3 on every map because you can actually jab lock them to 1 side then walk behind them and start over across the map.
4.Fair is an amazing spacer against D3
5.Heavyness allows for Zair->Dthrow->well i hope your a good samus and you have mixups for dthrow.
As for what tudor said i agree that samus can just play very campy. Grab is safe but only if you zair into it.
50-50 Samus Dedede maybe even 40-60 samus favor. DDD is one of my easiest matchups
Things samus has on DDD
1.D3 is HUGE. Makes spaming insanely easy.
2.Samus's range game helps to stay away from ICG (Which is still legal in parts of the midwest and was legal when i played lain)
3.Samus has a guaranteed infinite combo on D3. Smash missle->dair->jab lock...and yes this is an infinite on d3 on every map because you can actually jab lock them to 1 side then walk behind them and start over across the map.
4.Fair is an amazing spacer against D3
5.Heavyness allows for Zair->Dthrow->well i hope your a good samus and you have mixups for dthrow.
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
what im saying is you MUST have played a LAIN that was on DANGEROUS levels of MULTIPLE drugs. Cause in reality, an average samus DOES NOT beat the BEST(or 2nd best) DDD in the world. Or maybe lain was playing brawl with his feet and had a blind fold on.
Either one.
Sago
Smash Lord
Lain is always on a dangerous amount of drugs, he cant play without him. The one time he didnt smoke he placed 7th instead of 1st. And to say that im an average samus while its a step up from what you use to think of me is still insulting This seems like more of a personal attack then an arguement that Samus does poorly against d3.
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
oh come on..............
Sago
Smash Lord
Its just to easy to keep away from grabs.
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
Come to hobo 17 on august first. All your tourney fees will be free as well as housing.
Shugo-Chan
Smash Lord
Roflmaoooo.
Sago ***** Lain's D3. <3
Sago ***** Lain's D3. <3
-Crews-
a Strawhat Pirate
wtf is this thread for again? sago randomly told us how he thought about the matchup and now it has evolved into this? no one has changed their mind on the matchup thus far and i really don't think anyone is going to either. im really not seeing the importance of this being bumped and bumped over and over again. all i can get out of it is exactly what we all knew in the first place, its a hard matchup.
i don't post because it feels like all the discussions turn into us hating on each other and comparing our skills to each other and it's stupid and pointless. I'll just keep trolling like usual.
Stop whining and don't get grabbed.
Stop whining and don't get grabbed.
tha_carter
Smash Ace
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Multi hit aerials are excellent against shield grabbers. Even with 3De's amazing grab range, a well placed fair can stay out side of his grab range. And the move is too quick in between hits to be grabbed out of. Even so, we also have uair > nair. Which if dont properly, cant be shield grabbed. Samus can Uair the top of 3de's shield (hoping to shield poke) the double jump and Nair to safely escape grab range. Fun fact is Dedede CANT shield more than ONE of these entire moves without being shield poked(shield tilt dependant). Meaning if you Fair>DI back>uair... The Uair will connect, and allow you to combo it into anything.
If you do get grabbed (its your own fault), you can escape ICG anywhere below 70% because they MUST pummel you, by simply mashing. Dedede's pummel is very slow. Its VERY possible. Getting chaingrabbed isnt an issue, it wont kill. DI the D-tilt/ f-throw up, and it cant kill until 180%... FULLY REFRESHED. If you arent even close to kill percentage, DI down and mash Z. You'll tether the stage before the end Dededes cooldown.
Samus actually racks up damage quicker on Dedede than he does her. Dededes main way to rack up damage should be the chaingrab. But, if thats avoided consistently, dedede can have SERIOUS issues racking up damage while trying NOT to stale kill moves. Samus's Usmash alone, is better than any move dedede has outside of chaingrabbing to rack up damage.
You should NEVER be trying to outright kill a dedede to get either. That would only lead to shield grabs. You should be working f-tilt, bair, or tipped z-air to get him off stage and try to force him to use Up B. Which should ALWAYS lead to a charge shot. But you can always power shield the stars on landing , and Dtilt/fsmash out of shield if your CS is stale. Not to mention if you are poking through his shield, like i said before... if can lead to many KO options.
No, thats YOUR tactic. I havent even mentioned spam. Although, at long range, it is a viable option.
Not to mention Zair out prioritizes the waddle dee. Meaning if you time it right...(entirely possible), you can hit the waddle dee out of the air AND hit dedede at the same time.
Dedede statistically has the worse spot dodge, it can be punished. Jumping isnt a good option, because he's a huge target AND he cant grab in the air, so it take away one of the biggest potential advantage he has.
Zair can make DDD's life a living hell while he's returning. And is no risk to samus.
Dedede's best option is bair, because fair has too much cooldown, and if whiffed... will be punished. And bair trades hits with Samus' Dair; too much risk involved.
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Most legal stages with walkoffs, are only there for a couple seconds. Camp a few seconds and youll be fine. Take Dedede to japes, it will give you a bigger advantage than any stage he has against you.
Two of those are kill moves, DDD shouldnt be spamming, and ARE avoidable. To **** with bthrow, you gotta grab first...see above.
Dont attack from above while youre in kill range. There are still ground options.
I agree. Dont rely on spam, unless he's aerial/ offstage, or at a long range. Its best to eat up some shield with Super missiles, than to actually hope to hit him.
You can break out if they do one pummel until about 80%, where its still possible, but its very hard. A samus player should familiarize themself with button mashing. Rotate your control, and cascade your buttons for best results.
Also has a huge cooldown. If theres any sort of pattern you can pick up with them relying on Uair... BAIT and PUNISH.
Read above about getting grabbed. And it does 16 FRESH, and isnt a reliable kill move. DI up when youre near the ledge and youll survive until early 200%....
I dont understand this statement
and risks trading with dair offstage, where its most dangerous.
see above
Range vs speed of the grab is amazing. Good thing samus has 7 grounded melee attacks that outrange it, as well 5 aerial options. A samus who masters proper space in this matchup will see amazing benefits.
NONE of this was my opinion, just basic facts. Hope it can restore faith in those who feel this matchup is hopeless. =)
Hive
Smash Lord
I agree with a lot of what you say, and for many DDDs I think it might work, however, I think the main problem is that all of her aerials (including fair) and ground based combos which would normally be used to rack up damage do put her into DDDs grab range, which in my experience, done however intelligently, get punished at least 50% of the time. Its very very difficult to avoid the grab for long when you are using close range approaches, against something that has such a large range, speed, and can not be shielded. High levels DDDs imo are just too good at catching samus close range when she tries combos and aerial/grab approaches, and ddd still has a very easy taking advantage of samus when she is going for kos at ground range.
The problem is the bait and punish generally doesn't work imo in my exp against ddds who are familiar with the matchup. They are too good at punishing the approach, and I had tried a lot of things to get around this: masking approaches with super missiles/spams etc... putting him into predictable shield patterns, platform approaches, pivots, etc... DDD generally has an easy time finding ways around these bc his game is focused on finding ways around characters doing this stuff
DDD has very little problem koing samus, his kill moves are far less situational, and standing infinites when buffered correctly are soooo hard to break out of after 50% even during the pummel. I know its technically humanly possible until like 120% (i actually did a lot of the data) but that is if you press buttons at an absurd rate and with perfect timing, both very unlikely to do irl.
for offstage moves ddd can generally use uair to take out samus' dair w/o any risk for slightly vertical approaches, his bair can be directed at vertical ones. Both outprioritize samus in the air. It shouldn't be a dair tradeoff if done right.
and finally knocking out the waddle dee spams is unlikely due to varied release times, and him probably shielding the zair, though waddle dee spams is generally a small part of why I think he beats samus.
I just think that the strategies presented on paper against ddd work well theoretically but don't work well irl. A lot of it is representing fairly the ddds capacity for intelligent tactics, and change in combat which won't keep him from falling into many of the constant patterns people try to take advantage of.
The problem is the bait and punish generally doesn't work imo in my exp against ddds who are familiar with the matchup. They are too good at punishing the approach, and I had tried a lot of things to get around this: masking approaches with super missiles/spams etc... putting him into predictable shield patterns, platform approaches, pivots, etc... DDD generally has an easy time finding ways around these bc his game is focused on finding ways around characters doing this stuff
DDD has very little problem koing samus, his kill moves are far less situational, and standing infinites when buffered correctly are soooo hard to break out of after 50% even during the pummel. I know its technically humanly possible until like 120% (i actually did a lot of the data) but that is if you press buttons at an absurd rate and with perfect timing, both very unlikely to do irl.
for offstage moves ddd can generally use uair to take out samus' dair w/o any risk for slightly vertical approaches, his bair can be directed at vertical ones. Both outprioritize samus in the air. It shouldn't be a dair tradeoff if done right.
and finally knocking out the waddle dee spams is unlikely due to varied release times, and him probably shielding the zair, though waddle dee spams is generally a small part of why I think he beats samus.
I just think that the strategies presented on paper against ddd work well theoretically but don't work well irl. A lot of it is representing fairly the ddds capacity for intelligent tactics, and change in combat which won't keep him from falling into many of the constant patterns people try to take advantage of.
Cherry64
Smash Master
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Lol only number 2 bud, number three has to do with chain grabbing. Then you have to be effing pro with mind games to grab them and reset the spacing, it's not super hard, you just need to know what to do. We don't have the same kind of D3's you guys do but ours aren't bad. wouldn't hurt to listen 
and Hive you weren't *****y you were telling your side of the story. I think it's the way you play though, you control teh stage realyl well (says eckoes) but I'd be willing to say D3 controls it better, prolly why you have such a hard time with it.
and Hive you weren't *****y you were telling your side of the story. I think it's the way you play though, you control teh stage realyl well (says eckoes) but I'd be willing to say D3 controls it better, prolly why you have such a hard time with it.
Hive
Smash Lord
I've tried a lot of different tactics... idk it just doesn't seem to work on some of the higher ddds in the region (michael_hey too good ). My style is pretty aggressive and has a lot to do with the stage but i'd say a lot of it is focused on spam patterns, spacing and taking advantage of openings created for short combos... a lot of stuff that works on some of the ddds unfamiliar with the matchups here just don't work on the higher ones imo. Like I played this one ddd the other day in pools and he was just taking out a lot of my approaches, even my ledge game, and most of them were done very* cautiously to avoid being grabbed... it got to the point where approaching of any sort was really too much of a risk, which is hard for samus to play since a lot of her game revolves around taking control of openings... I guess I just really don't think that its a play style issue if you play the same people, bc samus just doesn't have much ability to be creative with playstyle here
). My style is pretty aggressive and has a lot to do with the stage but i'd say a lot of it is focused on spam patterns, spacing and taking advantage of openings created for short combos... a lot of stuff that works on some of the ddds unfamiliar with the matchups here just don't work on the higher ones imo. Like I played this one ddd the other day in pools and he was just taking out a lot of my approaches, even my ledge game, and most of them were done very* cautiously to avoid being grabbed... it got to the point where approaching of any sort was really too much of a risk, which is hard for samus to play since a lot of her game revolves around taking control of openings... I guess I just really don't think that its a play style issue if you play the same people, bc samus just doesn't have much ability to be creative with playstyle here
Cherry64
Smash Master
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know what I've noticed lol.
Playing Xyro on wi-fi (doesn't mean anything) and then playing a few others, some of the notably good samus' play the same as he does. I assume so does Hive, Serris doesn't and he still pwns. Carter does, it's like watching Xyro in a pink suit go at it.
anyways, all the pro's have this 1 certain style they use, works the best for most match-ups and its' how they play samus, I think what makes samus good is her ability to being a pro camper, or like her own variation of Aggressive. It's hard to learn both styles and will probably take away from your true style, but I find when you camp for like 3 months you learn a lot about what the opponent will do when confronted with Missiles being spammed like crazy.
Btw when you double missile super missiles at least one will not be perfect shielded. long stage means a pretty small shield when he finally gets to you.
totally just me I guess but I'm never above a D3 unless he put me there.
Playing Xyro on wi-fi (doesn't mean anything) and then playing a few others, some of the notably good samus' play the same as he does. I assume so does Hive, Serris doesn't and he still pwns. Carter does, it's like watching Xyro in a pink suit go at it.
anyways, all the pro's have this 1 certain style they use, works the best for most match-ups and its' how they play samus, I think what makes samus good is her ability to being a pro camper, or like her own variation of Aggressive. It's hard to learn both styles and will probably take away from your true style, but I find when you camp for like 3 months you learn a lot about what the opponent will do when confronted with Missiles being spammed like crazy.
Btw when you double missile super missiles at least one will not be perfect shielded. long stage means a pretty small shield when he finally gets to you.
totally just me I guess but I'm never above a D3 unless he put me there.
Rhyme
Smash Lord
I don't see what makes it such a horrible idea. Grab is, by definition, the option that beats shield in Smash.
If I get grabbed near the edge and I'm at moderate percent, grab->pummelx2->Dthrow->grab->pummelx2->throw of choice/Dtilt = about 27-35% (depends on move and staleness). For my Samus, that's one ground-canceled Fair/Uair->Usmash.
For me, the D3 knowing that I'm ballsy enough to grab is worth the risk.
1. D3 approaches to his Ftilt range and then waits for a grab/Utilt/attack opportunity. Because he will never put himself inside of Samus' KO move range, Samus must be the one to initiate that kind of action/trade. In other words, Samus must approach to kill. But, once Samus gets within D3's grab range, her options become too limited to create a kill setup.
2. D3 can powershield missiles, so that negates the "damaging" effect of power missiles on his shield. Powershielding allows him the option to either roll, spot-dodge, full-jump->Dair or grab, a combination that has the potential of beating any follow-up that Samus could have in mind.
3. ((I agree that D3 cannot kill Samus. Utilt shouldn't ever hit, Bair and Dsmash are avoided by playing intelligently, and throw isn't that strong.)) Samus cannot kill D3...Utilt/Dtilt/Fsmash, even when fresh, won't do the trick until at least 165, and punishing landing lag on D3's upB can only go so far.
You need to offer more justification than your own familiarity with the match-up. I'm finding it difficult to believe you when you say little more than how well you know the character.
For example, I've made plenty of claims about the MK and Olimar matchups being near even, but I don't see all of you jumping on the bandwagon.
I've watched DMBrandon break out of IC's grab before the second pummel at 133%. Trust me, it's possible to break out.
What are you talking about with this part? Buffered air-dodge or upB should get you out of this (as in Snake's "infinite" edge grab) unless I missed something.
Really? I have used both Castle Siege and Delfino as my counterpicks against D3 and they have worked. My main issue is that D3 changes to a character better suited to a bad level, lol.
I like the passion. Keep it up. : )
That's funny. D3 can DI, no?
This would only work if you landed right in his face with the missile...and if he doesn't DI away/shield/powershield the missile. You're talking about immense risk vs this character.
XD Call him out!
D3 should be able to Utilt/spot-dodge->grab against those double aerials. Powershielding and rolling help to cut down on how often D3 is shield poked.
Do you fight a majority of your match this way? I remember the days of Melee in which Marth/Falco couldn't beat my Samus on-stage, so their entire game plan was to throw me off and deal damage while I continued to recover and survive. I may be playing this match-up wrong if this is one of your primary goals.
For the record, this is one of my ways of fighting Olimar. But this possibility never crossed my mind after D3's heaviness and powershielding were taken into consideration. =/
Punished with...Fair? Dtilt? Unless I'm anticipating/baiting the spot-dodge, I can never react quickly enough to punish it with anything but Ftilt (and that goes nowhere at all).
In my experience, Samus suffers the typical Marth problem in doing this. When Samus uses many of her ranged ground moves, her hurtbox extends into D3's grab range. Dtilt is the only safe option. But, once D3's learn this, they will adjust their spacing and shield->walk->grab Dtilt most of the time.
Mmhm. You're encouraging me to look into this match-up again. I still don't believe you, but I'm not as rock solid as I was the last time I posted in this discussion.
NO-IDea
Smash Lord
Enough, gosh.
Had Xyro known these kind of threads would draw so much publicity, maybe he woulda shaped our match-up thread better. lol
But seriously, a lot of the stuff stated is useful and looks glorious on paper, but also fails to acknowledge that you're playing another human being who hopefully can think as well as you can. The whole "I can do this if he does that" is nice, but one mistake and Dedede can grab... and then grab... and then grab. Unless you're suggesting you ledge-camp... which does not put the match-up in your favor. And you can't expect to play a match where the only mistakes being made are done by Dedede.
Conversely, Dedede can afford mistakes. And when a character can afford mistakes, knowing full well they can catch up because of what's at their disposal (CGs in this case), that's just sad. Can Samus afford to make msitakes in this match-up? If every mistake leads to a 30%+ combo, not really.
Take it to the Dedede forums and discuss with them if you really want to claim the match-up isn't severely skewed. At best, I firmly believe it's still 70-30 Dedede's favor.
@Xyro: Why don't you update the match-up thread (everyone else can help out in assembling the data too) so we can move on to Dedede and record all this information there?
@carter: Basic facts and frame data aren't the only things that decide the match-up ratio. XD
@Hive: I like you XD
@Rhyme: Your logic is sound... but you sounded neutral. And intuitive. Not sure where you stand and I kind of want to. Kind of... in case my mind can possibly be altered.
Had Xyro known these kind of threads would draw so much publicity, maybe he woulda shaped our match-up thread better. lol
But seriously, a lot of the stuff stated is useful and looks glorious on paper, but also fails to acknowledge that you're playing another human being who hopefully can think as well as you can. The whole "I can do this if he does that" is nice, but one mistake and Dedede can grab... and then grab... and then grab. Unless you're suggesting you ledge-camp... which does not put the match-up in your favor. And you can't expect to play a match where the only mistakes being made are done by Dedede.
Conversely, Dedede can afford mistakes. And when a character can afford mistakes, knowing full well they can catch up because of what's at their disposal (CGs in this case), that's just sad. Can Samus afford to make msitakes in this match-up? If every mistake leads to a 30%+ combo, not really.
Take it to the Dedede forums and discuss with them if you really want to claim the match-up isn't severely skewed. At best, I firmly believe it's still 70-30 Dedede's favor.
@Xyro: Why don't you update the match-up thread (everyone else can help out in assembling the data too) so we can move on to Dedede and record all this information there?
@carter: Basic facts and frame data aren't the only things that decide the match-up ratio. XD
@Hive: I like you XD
@Rhyme: Your logic is sound... but you sounded neutral. And intuitive. Not sure where you stand and I kind of want to. Kind of... in case my mind can possibly be altered.
lain
Smash Master
Oh my ****ing gawd. Sago, you beat me in ONE set in pools. What the hell does it matter? I've lost to Xisin's marth, FOW's NESS, all kinds of crazy ****.
I don't like dealing with gay projectiles and camping in pools.
I don't like dealing with gay projectiles and camping in pools.
Shugo-Chan
Smash Lord
Roflmao dangggggg lain's like a hawk.
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