ROM 5 - Mew2King vs Unknown522

[Hot_ArmS]

lets all take a lesson on how to make brackets from overswarm


im serious

 

[Divinokage]

still....at a 100+ person tournament, there should never be switching of the bracket in winners semis because 2 players play alot....if u get to top 5, u play who u get matched up with...i seen players saying this happens alot at other tournaments, but that just hugely false...this almost neverrr happens(outside of smash).

Oh ya for sure.. how many times I had to do that, I can't count. They probably felt that way because they assumed they were going to get to that point anyway.. which again doesnt make me feel good inside when i think about it because it basically ignores how others feel as well.

 

[Tink]

ya exactly....im just hoping this doesnt happen again, at a major/national....locals, like most ppl say, its ur community, u do what u want heh.

 

[EthereaL]

What if those fans gave $ to cover travel expenses to be able to see them play on the stream? Would they still sandbag? Wouldn't that be a slap in the face for these guys?

Sometimes I wonder about you...

I was only saying that they are professionals, whatever that implies.

 

[GimR]

No. Calm down and read his post carefully.

Your argument: "Sandbagging and splitting detract from the spectator aspect of Melee. Therefore they should be banned."

Pink Reaper's argument: "Defensive play detracts from the spectator aspect of Melee. Therefore, by your logic, it should be banned. ... Oh wait, that would be ridiculous. Maybe there's a flaw in your logic."

I said that Sandbagging detracts from the competitive aspect of competitive smash. people should be playing to win. That's the whole point. If 4,000 people see some one sandbagging it hurts the integrity of the sport. People watching people play defensive does not detract from the integrity of the sport. It's just boring to watch. And I've never complained about that. Watch what arguments you attribute to me making that I never made.

 

[Divinokage]

Sometimes I wonder about you...

I was only saying that they are professionals, whatever that implies.

What do you wonder about?

 

[Deleted member]

Ok here's what the MBR came up with basically:

1. The events of RoM5 were based on a poor communication from multiple people.
2. We don't find any one person to be the source of the problem, and no malicious intent is suspected from anyone involved.
3. We think that the situation has revealed new issues that should be addressed by our rule set.
4. Those issues will be addressed within the next couple weeks.
5. No persecution should be taken against anyone involved. Basically, we're going to petition to Alex Strife to overlook the incident for APEX under the premise that the root problem will be fixed.

I said that Sandbagging detracts from the competitive aspect of competitive smash. people should be playing to win. That's the whole point. If 4,000 people see some one sandbagging it hurts the integrity of the sport. People watching people play defensive does not detract from the integrity of the sport. It's just boring to watch. And I've never complained about that. Watch what arguments you attribute to me making that I never made.

The oversight here is that smash is not a sport based on integrity. It's a children's party game, in which we set a very specific set of rules and compete under those rules. The rules being agreed-upon within the community adds legitimacy/integrity to the results. So you can say that players should be playing to win, and in theory they should; to do otherwise is a form of self-sabotage and strictly disadvantageous. However, disallowing it means that some players are not 100% responsible for their placement. Disallowing sandbagging removes integrity from our tournament results by potentially altering them. At that point, why even have the tournament? I reiterate that stages like Corneria or items like Pokeballs have a less detrimental impact on the results than you do when you disallow player autonomy by banning sandbagging. You are overstepping your bounds.

 

[Shroomed]

So you think it's fine for Mango to get 25th every tournament or something if he wants and that wouldn't detract from the competition?

If all the top players sandbagged and Kage or someone got 1st at Apex you would be cool with that?

**** THAT SON.

But you're right, can't force people to try.

 

[Deleted member]

So you think it's fine for Mango to get 25th every tournament or something if he wants and that wouldn't detract from the competition?

If all the top players sandbagged and Kage or someone got 1st at Apex you would be cool with that?

**** THAT SON.

But you're right, can't force people to try.

i mean it'd be sad as hell, but it's not as sad as me forcing you to play marth because doc isn't as good of a character.

 

[Shroomed]

i mean it'd be sad as hell, but it's not as sad as me forcing you to play marth because doc isn't as good of a character.

Does it work like that if my Doc is better than my Marth?

 

[Stylez]

I don't agree that any "game, in which we set a very specific set of rules and compete under those rules." could ever not be considered a sport.

I do agree that attempting to prevent sandbagging has the potential for removing legitimacy from results (really just based on the methods taken). But we're talking about results already skewed for one person or another once a player decides to openly throw a match.

 

[GimR]

The oversight here is that smash is not a sport based on integrity. It's a children's party game, in which we set a very specific set of rules and compete under those rules. The rules being agreed-upon within the community adds legitimacy/integrity to the results. So you can say that players should be playing to win, and in theory they should; to do otherwise is a form of self-sabotage and strictly disadvantageous. However, disallowing it means that some players are not 100% responsible for their placement. Disallowing sandbagging removes integrity from our tournament results by potentially altering them. At that point, why even have the tournament? I reiterate that stages like Corneria or items like Pokeballs have a less detrimental impact on the results than you do when you disallow player autonomy by banning sandbagging. You are overstepping your bounds.

come on man don't play that game with me. If it's competitive, there's rules and there's a scene then some sort of integrity is involved. If there was no integrity involved and people weren't thirsty to win then there would be no community and we wouldn't be having tournaments like we do

 

[KrIsP!]

5. No persecution should be taken against anyone involved. Basically, we're going to petition to Alex Strife to overlook the incident for APEX under the premise that the root problem will be fixed.

Can someone link me to this Alex Strife business? I keep hearing about it and have no ****ing clue what they're talking about.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

The oversight here is that smash is not a sport based on integrity. It's a children's party game

I giggled, quote material here

 

[oukd]

How you would even enforce a non-sandbagging rule is the real question.


Haven't been following this thread at all...

 

[FerrishTheFish]

If you want to make a rule against sandbagging--as in, an actual RULE that TOs have to enforce, not just a "soft" ban or code of conduct--then you risk disallowing players from dealing with the stress of a tournament in the ways that might work best for them but that don't fit your quantitative, "enforceable" definition of sandbagging.

Does refusing to exploit obvious strategies count as sandbagging? If so, say goodbye to any Sheik who doesn't chaingrab and any IC who doesn't wobble.

Does refusing to approach even if they might be open count as sandbagging? If so, no more camping when you're up a stock and have 60sec left on the clock, you gotta fight that **** out.

Does not playing your main in favor of a second with a theoretically worse MU count as sandbagging? And just what makes you think that my G&W doesn't do better against Marths?

And that's just trying to come up with a definition of sandbagging. What about the difficulties you'll encounter when you actually try to enforce it? Especially if we're talking about world-class players here, how are you supposed to walk up to Mango and say, "Hey, you were sandbagging, you could have daired here or shielded there or upB'd in a different direction here or not picked Falcon" when he knows 10x better than you what constitutes an opening, when he knows 10x better than you whether or not he even had time (in terms of his own reflexes) to dair or shield, when he knows 10x better than you what he was thinking when he upB'd in whatever direction, when he knows 10x better than you how well or badly his Falcon does against whoever was playing him, etc.? How do plan to justify punishing someone in that situation? Does the rule get waived if the alleged "sandbagger" wins in the end (which would require matches to be replayed if the sandbagger loses, which I thought we all agreed was bad)?

It's never going to work in a fair and consistent manner, and it will only hurt our community if top players stop coming to tournaments because they're afraid they'll get DQ'd for playing a second.

 

[The Star King]

Can someone link me to this Alex Strife business? I keep hearing about it and have no ****ing clue what they're talking about.

Wat? I think you misread that quote. He's saying Alex Strife shouldn't punish the people involved in the ROM split by banning them from Apex or whatever.

 

[JPOBS]

>implying the mbr has any real power

 

[KrIsP!]

Wat? I think you misread that quote. He's saying Alex Strife shouldn't punish the people involved in the ROM split by banning them from Apex or whatever.

Yeah, when did he say that he would? Other people have brought that up and I haven't seen any post like that form him.

 

[C.SDK]

Does it work like that if my Doc is better than my Marth?

ooooooooooo

UMBREON, WHERE U AT?

 

[KrazyKnux]

why are there so many idiotic arguments still going on?


...and why do i keep coming back? There REALLY needs to be a bowser revolution in this thread. I'm thinking there are 2 turns left.

 

[choknater]

man

if i ever play against a sheik player in tournament

i wanna sheik ditto them and cg them

just for kicks

then go ice climbers if i lose

 

[Xyzz]

And chaingrab them again?

 

[EthereaL]

That was probably one of the dumbest posts I have ever read of yours, Umbreon. It's up there with your "emotions don't effect how you play".

The rule sets we play by make the game a different game than the "party game" it was originally made to be (but that's another discussion).

The bottom line is that the game we play is competitive. Since all competition is based on integrity at some level, that idea in your post is borderline idiotic.

 

[Divinokage]

>implying the mbr has any real power

Definitely not but at least we can talk to TOs and the top players in private without dealing with BS.

 

[Strong Badam]

We don't have "power" but approximately all of the relevant TOs respect us and look to us for guidance, especially in situations such as this, so saying we lack influence in the community is a pretty inaccurate statement.

 

[Divinokage]

Thanks for repeating what I said.

 

[Strong Badam]

Less warrior-like more wise gorilla-like.

 

[Deleted member]

The bottom line is that the game we play is competitive. Since all competition is based on integrity at some level, that idea in your post is borderline idiotic.

That's not true. Competition is not based on integrity, it simply offers some kind of gain for some type of superiority. Integrity, morality, and prestige are all characteristics we apply to the game after we have become emotionally invested into it at a later time. Now if you've become emotionally invested and you also assume that your peers have, sure you have a common ideology that you can work with there. But not everyone operates under those principles. Any sense of legitimacy is added to smash based on whatever common set of rules we all agree to play under. That legitimacy can be VERY easily removed, by say turning on pokeballs, allowing corneria, or telling players what characters to play in the top 4 of a tournament.

edit:

I try very hard to not take mental short-cuts when I'm evaluating things like this. Proper evaluation of a problem is the best way to solve it. To be perfectly clear, all I want to do is to solve this problem so that it doesn't come up again. I know that it steps on peoples' toes because a lot of my statements conflict with standards, viewpoints, and I tend to have a very direct and therefore harsh method of delivery. I know my harshness is a personal fault of mine, and I'm working on it slowly, but I'm not going to compromise my viewpoints until they are logically unsound.

 

[Espy Rose]

That's why he said "at some level" you silly boob.

 

[Gbu$]

 

[joY]

A post worthy of bumping this thread.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I wonder what Jman posted?

that GIF is too funny


edit: - unknown522

 

[Battlecow]

he just posted saying that his other account was his real account and he shouldn't have been banned. I believe "A ***** can't forget his password?" was in there somewhere.

 

[joY]

Yeah. Like: you **** licking **** why don't you **** my ****.

Makes for a good guessing game!

 

[KrIsP!]

He put the mad in mad libs

 

[The Star King]

It was hilarious. I almost sigged it but I didn't, and I regret it cuz it's gone forever now

 

[KrazyKnux]

Yeah. Like: you **** licking **** why don't you **** my ****.

Makes for a good guessing game!

**** definitely fits in 3 of those 4 edited words. LOL.

 

[CanISmash]

this thread is funny. if people think the issue doesn't concern anyone but the individuals who made it to that top 3 spot...cool.

i just hope we can encourage noobs, and mid levels players to stop entering tourneys they know they aren't in a position to win and only play friendlies and practice. no need feeding the pot, top level players can feed it themselves and split the scraps

 

[omgwtfToph]

I can hella get behind this post:

My idea of incentives is more like "you have to actually complete the tournament to win the money" rather than "you can split if you're okay with everyone hating you". one of them just gets the tournament done, one of them encourages our good players to quit.

i really feel that we can make sure whatever happened at rom 5 never happens again by simply acknowledging the behavior in the rule set.

and feel that it's all that really needs to be said. That rule is concrete, it's enforceable, it helps with the (perceived) problem while not "overstepping bounds" or some such by trying to influence players' emotions (no "sandbagging" where "sandbagging" is very hard to precisely define).

At the same time can someone remind me when playing video games became such a big ****ing deal? Melee is a great game, competing is fun and tournaments should be about going, playing your heart out, having a good time and hopefully learning from it (and then getting food with everybody afterward). Holey moley the **** is not even that serious lol.