ROM 5 - Mew2King vs Unknown522

[KirbyKaze]

No credit at all as usual.

I work with what you give me.

 

[TheGoat]

So I'm not a competitive expert and I've been in and out of the scene. The good thing about this is that we have a fairly large number on posts in a short period of time meaning that our community is alive. The other good thing is that the mods decided to let us discuss melee in melee discussion. I dont understand why DSR exists but I guess it is prevalent for a reason.

I think that the perpetrator who claimed the illegal rule set was legal is the one primarily to blame. Yes the other player could have checked to make sure, and yes, the TO should have made this new rule (from what I understand is some new random rule) better known, but these are secondary results from the original perpetrator's actions.

As for splitting, it completely obliterates the hype of the tournament and doesn't do the community any favors. At LEAST at large national tournaments it should be banned. ffs do you see any dumb **** like splitting in dota 2 or sc2 gf?

 

[KrIsP!]

It wasn't a new rule though, it was an old rule that had gone obsolete, it really was just confusion though.

 

[GimR]

Melee it On Me - Preshow Real Show goes live around 9PM EST

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp

 

[Svetsunov]

Melee it On Me - Preshow Real Show goes live around 9PM EST

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp

Watching :D

 

[Espy Rose]

Definitely a nice call so far.
Prog loves Applejacks. I love Prog.

 

[JmanJ]

Although most every angle has been covered on this issue, I'd like to provide emphasis to a few things which deserve more attention. First off two community members have points in particular that really hit the nail on the head.
(my summary)

CrimsonBlur

• Splitting is insulting and deflates hype
• Every attempt to split should be punished if found out

GIMR

• M2k and the unknown destroyed the hype of top 3 for GF with the viewers and streamers (who traveled great distances to stream it)
• The lack of competitive spirit from the top players is appalling

Overall, splitting destroys hype. I don't care that's hard to enforce, TOs have to do their best. Splitting messes with the lifeblood of smash. This lifeblood isn't the game itself or even having a good community. It is competition. Competition is what keeps people coming back and wanting to improve. The RESULT of this is often a good community. The lack of competitive spirit from M2k and unknown was terrible. Where is your pride? Is a few extra bucks really more important to you than the title of champion in a melee national??

 

[Mew2King]

About splitting, as I said before, I take full blame, but as well to defend myself I would say that I do that all the time, but NOT with bad intentions. Regardless if I'm waiting in GF for jman/cactuar and split with them, or md/va all the time in 06/07 (in that case they get mad at me if i do not do that so i had to like every single time for the most part or at least over half the time iirc). If they came up to me (if anyone did) and drove it through my head the negative impact it would have, I wouldn't have done it. I wasn't thinking cuz I'm stupid and don't think.

I'm a big flip-flop with my motivation with smash but lately it's not been much so I can see why you would say no competitive drive. My emotions often make me not want to play. Kirbykaze is kind of the same way emotion wise, and out of me/unknown/alukard/KK, he deserves by far the least backlash since he simply did not want to play (which is understandable as i think all 3 of us didn't after the game 5 controversey happened).

I still tried to win the tourney though (i managed to go 3-0 3-0 3-1 6-0 through losers and i used mostly sheik anyway so even if im not playing my best i still gave it my best shot). I should not have asked to split, I was wrong for that. I wasn't doing it knowing it was wrong (although I should have thought about it more), but I was wrong for that.

 

[prog]

Definitely a nice call so far.
Prog loves Applejacks. I love Prog.

I'm pretty good.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Overall, splitting destroys hype. I don't care that's hard to enforce, TOs have to do their best.

Dude, splitting does not destroy hype. That is just a faulty argument. It is 100% possible to do whatever the **** you want with your money according to any post/prior agreement with any other player you want and still play a hype match with them! There is a connection, and some players will not play as hard if they know they won't earn more money, but splitting and hype are not inherently incompatible! The fact is that if the players themselves are not hyped, their games are going to be lackluster regardless of whether they split or not.

From your join date, I'm going to assume you've never hosted a tourney ... You might want to do that--or at least become familiar with that process--before you tell TOs to take on even more responsibility and try to enforce the unenforceable. Look at the evidence in front of you. M2K says he'll stop splitting, and no TO had to "do their best" (read: "enforce the unenforceable") and ban him. Doesn't that say something about the power of the community vs. the power of a single TO?

Now, I don't know M2K (I've played with him for about 30min--he probably doesn't remember), but I find it hard to believe that he'd be happier taking 4th at some hypothetical backwards-payout tournament where 4th gets more money than 1st. He seems like the kind of player who wants to win, whether that gives him more money or not.

Also, corn and brownies sounds freaking legit, but not as legit as Butterfinger ice cream and diced red onions. I am not joking, try that ****, it is amazing.

 

[Kink-Link5]

ffs do you see any dumb **** like splitting in dota 2 or sc2 gf?

Didn't know Soul Calibur 2 still had a scene at all. I assumed most players for fighting games just generally move on to whatever shiny new game comes out for a month before going back to playing Super Street Footsies 4.

In any case, the argument that splitting "won't let us be taken seriously" is kind of a joke. Competitive Gaming is already a non-serious sport that gets no media attention and works out of grassroots, and within the broader "community" divisions exist with gamers dismissing genres as not being serious already. Smash is already a joke to Street Fighter and Mahval fans, as are most air dash fighters, and conversely Street Fighter is seen as a joke by players of "Anime Fighters." And then you have Shooter players dismissing fighting games in general, and Starcraft players joking about shooters. It's a giant joke of a sport with no respect given across genres. The fact that there's problem seen with what a player does with their winnings is a testament to how much our scene is trying way too hard to fit into some picture of what makes a competitive game's scene "legit."

This event won't kill the Smash scene, and neither will any other silly controversy. We didn't care when MLG dropped us, and we didn't care that Nintendo never gave any support for the scene. We'll do just fine without being taken "seriously" by 10000 stream monsters and srk members.

 

[Silent Wolf]

lol people are *****es. get over it

 

[smasher32]

THIS. So much this. I REALLY want m2k to be a serious competitor for first place, I still think he has it in him... Also because he is king of marth mains and I may or may not be biased.

The biggest problem with this is if M2K is at the next big tournament, he is going to split. Sure, he's going off like a broken record saying he'll never split again, but we can't reliably take his word on this. Especially after MLG's drama.

I realize I'm in the minority when I say this, but I feel like M2K should lay low for a little while and avoid the bigger tournaments until this ordeal wears off.

 

[Mike G]

The biggest problem with this is if M2K is at the next big tournament, he is going to split. Sure, he's going off like a broken record saying he'll never split again, but we can't reliably take his word on this. Especially after MLG's drama.

I realize I'm in the minority when I say this, but I feel like M2K should lay low for a little while and avoid the bigger tournaments until this ordeal wears off.

The reason he seems like he's a broken record is because this community lets him get away with it.

But hey, I could be wrong ya know. lol

 

[Espy Rose]

Except you're not.

 

[Deleted member]

The reason he seems like he's a broken record is because this community lets him get away with it.

But hey, I could be wrong ya know. lol

this also assumes that it's an undesirable behavior to begin with. even if it is, it has never been stated formally, so he would have no reason (yet) to think that splitting is bad.

you're not wrong mike so much as you have the incorrect starting point. we have to make sure our players know whether splitting is allowed, disallowed, or up to the TO.

we will correct this in the very near future. for example, it is likely that the revision to the rule set will say something along the lines of "splitting is not allowed for tournaments", which implies that, at some point, it was allowed for tournaments. you and i both know that this was true at one point.

jason just needs a firm stance, which is currently lacking. he will generally try to do whatever is "correct" so long as he knows what correct means.

 

[Mahone]

I think chocolate and fish would taste pretty bad

 

[TheLake]

Hmm aside from anything mentioned with onions

i would eat about every combo everyone has posted so far

the perfect thread to read on thanksgiving

thanks kk for almost going kirby, walking with shiek at high level and derailing this poor excuse of a thread that i so idioticly posted in for the sake of attention and self worth (like 99 percent of the rest of you lot >:D)

thanks to m2k and unknown for the really cool winners semis set that was so beast

thanks to GIMR for TRYING to make melee look good for the fighting game community

thanks to alukard rocking the cradle in the community we needed it

this was a good thing that this happened everyone

get your perspective

stave your passion

AND KEEP KK OUT OF WINNERS FINALS !

<3 Canada

 

[Xyzz]

Horseradish + maple syrup (chocolate if the later is ineligible).

 

[Violence]

Wasabi paste and sour lemon jello.

 

[Boat Mode]

Sausage links and peanut butter

 

[KrIsP!]

Horseradish + maple syrup (chocolate if the later is illegible).

No I'm pretty sure maple syrup was spelled correctly. Ineligible might not have been though

 

[Xyzz]

Sorry about that... Ze Germans obviously can't spell :D

 

[Mike G]

this also assumes that it's an undesirable behavior to begin with. even if it is, it has never been stated formally, so he would have no reason (yet) to think that splitting is bad.

you're not wrong mike so much as you have the incorrect starting point. we have to make sure our players know whether splitting is allowed, disallowed, or up to the TO.

we will correct this in the very near future. for example, it is likely that the revision to the rule set will say something along the lines of "splitting is not allowed for tournaments", which implies that, at some point, it was allowed for tournaments. you and i both know that this was true at one point.

jason just needs a firm stance, which is currently lacking. he will generally try to do whatever is "correct" so long as he knows what correct means.

It's true that this behavior has been a common thing among top players for a good while, but like I said in another thread the real issue here is about throwing matches in general.

The real issue isn't about spitting, but throwing matches in general.

Some people already said it. You can't control what people do with THEIR MONEY after the tourney, but you can ENFORCE RULES to make sure people are playing to their best ability during the tournament. If it's obvious that a person isn't playing their best at a finals unless they have a damn good reason, it's simple: They have to forfeit. Sounds harsh? Probably, but players have no reason to goof around when they are that close at getting a shot a winning a national. It's a slap in the face to people that tried their best and didn't make it to top 3 and the community/streamers/staff/etc. This isn't on just on the Top three either. Everyone in the community needs to do their part to at least try to prevent this from happening again. How do you expect FGC to treat us better when we can't even take pride in our own game?

Eh, I was going to add a lot more here, but today is Turkey Day and I'm not in enough rage to continue with this right now. So happy Thanksgiving Mow and smash community.


Deep Fried Turkey > any Turkey btw unless you like turkey legs. Deep fried turkey legs are dried out but mannnnn dat deep fried turkey breast is gdlk.

 

[choknater]

instead of unknown vs mew2king

can we talk about warriorknight + dj nintendo vs kirbykaze + cactuar?

 

[Deleted member]

instead of unknown vs mew2king

can we talk about warriorknight + dj nintendo vs kirbykaze + cactuar?

cactuar threw the match but it was still glorious?

/obvious sandbagging

 

[GimR]

I hope there's a rule for no splitting. Not so there's no splitting, but so players are so afraid to make it public that no one knows the better.

 

[Deleted member]

I hope there's a rule for no splitting. Not so there's no splitting, but so players are so afraid to make it public that no one knows the better.

To what extent should we attempt to control/guide our players? At some point, we are over-stepping our boundaries for what we can and cannot do, and the debate at hand has shown us that we are very close to that boundary. Is the MBR/TO supposed to inspire fear in our players? Is fear of ridicule an acceptable means of enforcement? I'm not the most moral guy on these boards and even I don't like that one. You might want to change your smashboards alias for the time being.

 

[Kal]

I don't see a problem with ostracizing the practice. Social norms are, for the most part, pretty arbitrary, and they are all enforced by "fear of ridicule," or something similar.

 

[KrazyKnux]

To what extent should we attempt to control/guide our players? At some point, we are over-stepping our boundaries for what we can and cannot do, and the debate at hand has shown us that we are very close to that boundary. Is the MBR/TO supposed to inspire fear in our players? Is fear of ridicule an acceptable means of enforcement? I'm not the most moral guy on these boards and even I don't like that one. You might want to change your smashboards alias for the time being.

wat


...10wats

 

[Yung Mei]

in addition to his what




what

 

[Espy Rose]

To what extent should we attempt to control/guide our players?

Until they act like the professionals they're supposed to be.

 

[Isatis]

To what extent should we attempt to control/guide our players? At some point, we are over-stepping our boundaries for what we can and cannot do, and the debate at hand has shown us that we are very close to that boundary. Is the MBR/TO supposed to inspire fear in our players? Is fear of ridicule an acceptable means of enforcement? I'm not the most moral guy on these boards and even I don't like that one. You might want to change your smashboards alias for the time being.

...are you even reading what you're typing...

 

[Landry]

I don't understand the argument that MBR would be over-stepping its boundaries by creating a rule set that specifically states the splitting is not allowed. You not allowed to split games in plenty of regulated competitions. Can you imagine trying to split/throw games in the MLB, NBA or really any professional sport? I'm not trying to say we're on that level but we certainly could try to regulate it. If you want to split money with people that's fine, but you have to win the tournament first. I think TO's should be able to DQ any player who seems to be obviously throwing matches for whatever reason. You certainly can't make players try hard but you can penalize them for not trying.

 

[Spife]

is it 1984 already?

 

[Kal]

Loving the asinine response to what are just reasonable questions from Umbreon.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I was also confused. I thought Umbreon's questions were perfectly in line.

 

[Kal]

Whenever you raise issues of personal liberty, people always have to bring up Orwell. Even if it's just "we shouldn't be using tournament rules to tell players how to behave socially," someone will be all bam!

I couldn't find a good video for 1984.

 

[KrIsP!]

Someone will be all...taylor swift ad? Yeah, I guess people can be drama queens.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't see a problem with ostracizing the practice. Social norms are, for the most part, pretty arbitrary, and they are all enforced by "fear of ridicule," or something similar.

The problem is that the social basis makes it a soft ban. I posted before that a "soft ban" means "not actually banned" when it comes to the surface, however rarely. For a lame comparison, Sheik chaingrab is "soft banned" by the good sheik players- but still 100% legitimate in a tournament setting. What it means is that when it actually comes up, it's not actually enforced. We need to pick a firm stance and explicitly state it, whatever that stance may be.

...are you even reading what you're typing...

If you don't see that mediation is clearly necessary, I question your reading comprehension.

I don't understand the argument that MBR would be over-stepping its boundaries by creating a rule set that specifically states the splitting is not allowed. You not allowed to split games in plenty of regulated competitions. Can you imagine trying to split/throw games in the MLB, NBA or really any professional sport? I'm not trying to say we're on that level but we certainly could try to regulate it. If you want to split money with people that's fine, but you have to win the tournament first. I think TO's should be able to DQ any player who seems to be obviously throwing matches for whatever reason. You certainly can't make players try hard but you can penalize them for not trying.

We are not stepping over bounds to disallow splitting. We are stepping on some boundaries if for some reason the multitude of horrible ideas that have been proposed so far are taken seriously at all. These are some of the horrible ideas I've seen so far:

1. Forcing our players to "play for real" either by effort (no sandbagging) or strategy (characters, stage choices).

2. Disallowing forfeits (seriously, what?).

3. Using public ridicule as an enforcement technique because it means that this mess will come back repeatedly. This might be the closest thing I've seen to a legitimately evil idea in my modest 10 years on smashboards.

4. Banning players from APEX when none of the events from RoM 5 were against any of the rules.

The fact is, the community is attempting to extend its control over a select group of players. It's a big shift from the original focus of what a tournament even is, turning it from strict competition to a spectator event. This might seem small, but the initial point of a tournament is to see who our best players are, and to what capacity. The introduction of spectator bias negotiates the purity of tournament results. So if Kirby Kaze decides he wants to play Kirby in the top 4 and gets sacked, but we don't let him, we just changed those results. If the player is not 100% responsible for his own placement...why even bother with the tournament? This is a major difference and many moral, philosophical, and logistic questions must be answered before we can even begin to mold our community around these ideas successfully. This is NOT a small change because it questions the very basis of our community (competitive smash bros).