ROM 5 - Mew2King vs Unknown522

[Kal]

The problem is that the social basis makes it a soft ban. I posted before that a "soft ban" means "not actually banned" when it comes to the surface, however rarely. For a lame comparison, Sheik chaingrab is "soft banned" by the good sheik players- but still 100% legitimate in a tournament setting. What it means is that when it actually comes up, it's not actually enforced. We need to pick a firm stance and explicitly state it, whatever that stance may be.

I agree that a social rule is a "soft ban," and I think that's the way to go, since all of the issues people are bringing up are social issues. There's nothing inherent in the game that makes it reasonable to call this behavior "cheating," so it's necessarily going to fall down to social etiquette. Generally speaking, the best players will follow a soft ban (look at Japan's soft ban of Akuma). This is why I think a code of conduct that mentions splitting and "bracket manipulation" would be superior to a tournament rule.

KrIsp, I know it's hard, but sometimes people post links to videos to make some sort of point, and the ad that you're forced to watch before the video is not that point. In this case the point was that I'm too lazy to find a video that references George Orwell.

 

[Chroma]

Until they act like the professionals they're supposed to be.

"professionals" imply that we pay them or support them in a major way. We don't. This is a hobby (albeit a serious one) for even the very top players, and implying that we're entitled to some conduct or product from them is.... well, entitled. What right do we have to enforce what they do as players?

 

[Isatis]

If you don't see that mediation is clearly necessary, I question your reading comprehension.

Your point might be more effective if you didn't insult my friend by suggesting he change his Smash tag. On the flipside, there have been no alternatives brought up, other than "let them keep doing it freely", which do you want Melee to be seen as something where competitiveness is not valued? Denying that it is a problem is not the way to go.

/done with my input on this issue.

 

[tarheeljks]

"professionals" imply that we pay them or support them in a major way. We don't. This is a hobby (albeit a serious one) for even the very top players, and implying that we're entitled to some conduct or product from them is.... well, entitled. What right do we have to enforce what they do as players?

meh it doesn't need to be letting them pay their rent. they have notoriety and at tournaments like this the top few get non trivial financial boons. ofc this is b/c of skill but it's also b/c there is a dedicated following. one could argue that the only those who have paid to enter to the tournament are supporting them directly and that's true in a sense but the community at large makes it sustainable

edit: so i don't begrudge people for wanting players to play hard all the time. at the same time the players are ofc under no obligation to appease

 

[Deleted member]

Your point might be more effective if you didn't insult my friend by suggesting he change his Smash tag. On the flipside, there have been no alternatives brought up, other than "let them keep doing it freely", which do you want Melee to be seen as something where competitiveness is not valued? Denying that it is a problem is not the way to go.

/done with my input on this issue.

You're obviously not reading my posts at all.

Or GIMRs. The irony behind the alias "God is my Rock" as a proponent of mass fear isn't even subtle.

edit:

This isn't a personal attack on GIMR. Rather, I find his suggestion questionable. GIMR himself is an amazing asset to this community in every sense. The suggestion is a friendly one, as most people don't like to damage the image of their religion by publicly opposing its basis.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Some people and their inability to understand that making a rule against certain behavior and actually stopping said behavior are two different--often, VERY different--things ...

 

[Kal]

Some people and their inability to understand that making a rule against certain behavior and actually stopping said behavior are two different--often, VERY different--things ...

We should just shift gears to a discussion on gun control.

 

[ShroudedOne]

The fact is, the community is attempting to extend its control over a select group of players. It's a big shift from the original focus of what a tournament even is, turning it from strict competition to a spectator event. This might seem small, but the initial point of a tournament is to see who our best players are, and to what capacity. The introduction of spectator bias negotiates the purity of tournament results. So if Kirby Kaze decides he wants to play Kirby in the top 4 and gets sacked, but we don't let him, we just changed those results. If the player is not 100% responsible for his own placement...why even bother with the tournament? This is a major difference and many moral, philosophical, and logistic questions must be answered before we can even begin to mold our community around these ideas successfully. This is NOT a small change because it questions the very basis of our community (competitive smash bros).

This is probably the most striking thing in your post, and I've come to believe that if we even think for a moment that we should influence how people decide to play (or even if we feel entitled to their best all the time), we should just quit the scene completely, because it will no longer mean anything.

 

[Landry]

We are not stepping over bounds to disallow splitting. We are stepping on some boundaries if for some reason the multitude of horrible ideas that have been proposed so far are taken seriously at all. These are some of the horrible ideas I've seen so far:

1. Forcing our players to "play for real" either by effort (no sandbagging) or strategy (characters, stage choices).

2. Disallowing forfeits (seriously, what?).

3. Using public ridicule as an enforcement technique because it means that this mess will come back repeatedly. This might be the closest thing I've seen to a legitimately evil idea in my modest 10 years on smashboards.

4. Banning players from APEX when none of the events from RoM 5 were against any of the rules.

I 100% agree with the points you made above.

The fact is, the community is attempting to extend its control over a select group of players. It's a big shift from the original focus of what a tournament even is, turning it from strict competition to a spectator event. This might seem small, but the initial point of a tournament is to see who our best players are, and to what capacity. The introduction of spectator bias negotiates the purity of tournament results. So if Kirby Kaze decides he wants to play Kirby in the top 4 and gets sacked, but we don't let him, we just changed those results. If the player is not 100% responsible for his own placement...why even bother with the tournament? This is a major difference and many moral, philosophical, and logistic questions must be answered before we can even begin to mold our community around these ideas successfully. This is NOT a small change because it questions the very basis of our community (competitive smash bros).

I would argue that controlling top players (by disallowing splits) in this instance is not necessarily for spectators but more so for other players. Players don't (I hope) want to make it to the end of the tournament only to be offered a split by one of the nations top players. In the spirit of competition most players want to truly test their skill and be 100% responsible for their placings, as you said. In the case of RoM5 we had M2K, Unknown and KirbyKaze all threw away really legitimate shots at wining a national. Now, instead of celebrating that M2K won his first national in a long while we're all on Smashboards talking about a splitting controversy. All players deserved better.

Anyway, thats just my two cents. I hope that this a moot point anyway because I really do think that a lot of players respect the competition too much to split.

 

[Mew2King]

this may sound kind of dumb but i kind of don't really want to do tournaments anymore. I just feel i have to cuz of money and my fans.

 

[bertbusdriver]

If you're deep in a tournament or on stream, please just consider how you might be hurting the TO or streamers by visibly not giving a ****. These guys don't get paid or recognized nearly enough to be doing it for the money or the fame. It's for the love of the game/community. They rely on hype matches to get returning attendees/viewers. Future events are hurt in terms of ability to gain sponsors and retain/increase attendance. If that's fine with you, go ahead and split and play a terrible set in finals.

 

[Landry]

this may sound kind of dumb but i kind of don't really want to do tournaments anymore. I just feel i have to cuz of money and my fans.

You certainly can do whatever you want M2K. Just make sure you're don't do anything to impulsively that you might regret later. I hope you're not down in the dumps after RoM because really, all in all its not even that big of a deal. Anyway, I hope you keep playing (not that my opinion should matter to you at all).

 

[Deleted member]

this may sound kind of dumb but i kind of don't really want to do tournaments anymore. I just feel i have to cuz of money and my fans.

that's how i felt by 2005 when we were at getting schooled 2, except replace "fans" with "friends". pretty much the only tournaments i enjoyed after that were in new york or pennsylvania because i wanted to hang out with people like you. i'm amazed it took you this long to get there.

 

[Mew2King]

2005 was the best! i remember the first time i ever played u and u 4 stocked me. It was so much more fun back then, and all the tactics in this game were so new and interesting. I just had a lot more fun and motivation in general. When Brawl came out I think is when i lost the melee drive, but I think it's because I've just been playing these games too long and it's not as fun as it was to me before. Too much of the same old stuff. I can't wait till smash 4; new stuff again!

If you're deep in a tournament or on stream, please just consider how you might be hurting the TO or streamers by visibly not giving a ****. These guys don't get paid or recognized nearly enough to be doing it for the money or the fame. It's for the love of the game/community. They rely on hype matches to get returning attendees/viewers. Future events are hurt in terms of ability to gain sponsors and retain/increase attendance. If that's fine with you, go ahead and split and play a terrible set in finals.

I still tried to win the tourney!!

 

[Espy Rose]

"professionals" imply that we pay them or support them in a major way. We don't. This is a hobby (albeit a serious one) for even the very top players, and implying that we're entitled to some conduct or product from them is.... well, entitled. What right do we have to enforce what they do as players?

How in the world does that imply such a thing?
I don't even understand how you can justify that.

You're obligated to act professional (properly) at tournaments because that's the right thing to do. How you can sit there and argue that one doesn't have to act right is just terrible.

We do it to maintain both dignity and integrity of the competitive community. That should be a primary goal of ALL players, especially the upper echelon that represents the community. Whether they like it or not, they need to set an example.

 

[KrIsP!]

KrIsp, I know it's hard, but sometimes people post links to videos to make some sort of point, and the ad that you're forced to watch before the video is not that point. In this case the point was that I'm too lazy to find a video that references George Orwell.

lol I got your point, just found it funny : P

 

[GimR]

Wow, Umbreon, your post about my tag was just so ignorant. You know nothing of my beliefs. I'm quite surprised seeing as you're some on I see as a logical and rational thinker.


Also you said this:

As far as I can tell, we might have to both ban splitting, and state that you do not have any winnings guaranteed until payout after the tournament completion. We can't enforce what people do with their money, but we can still use incentives to guide behavior.

How is this not the same thing that I'm suggesting?

 

[Cactuar]

HEY GUYS. WHATCHA THINKIN ABOUT?

Srsly. I haven't read this thread.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

I think chocolate and fish would taste pretty bad

i'm gonna smash you at APEX, IM GETTIN READY FOR DAT FREE MONEY YOU **** NOOB

 

[Doser]

Umbreon seriously thinks making it uncool to split is inspiring mass fear.

Why does anyone think this tryhard is intelligent in the slightest?

 

[Mahone]

i'm gonna smash you at APEX, IM GETTIN READY FOR DAT FREE MONEY YOU **** NOOB

im not going to apex, i just posted to get ur hopes up

 

[KrazyKnux]

At this point, any argument that hasn't been settled yet is hilarious at times.

There really needs to be a bowser revolution in this thread or something. Maybe we can make all our post counts equal, that sure would show them!

 

[Deleted member]

How is this not the same thing that I'm suggesting?

My idea of incentives is more like "you have to actually complete the tournament to win the money" rather than "you can split if you're okay with everyone hating you". one of them just gets the tournament done, one of them encourages our good players to quit.

i really feel that we can make sure whatever happened at rom 5 never happens again by simply acknowledging the behavior in the rule set.

and you're right, i don't know anything of your beliefs. it was a poor assumption on my part.

 

[PB&J]

can this thread be closed now?

 

[Shroomed]

can this thread be closed now?

Why? There's constructive discussion in here.

 

[Xyzz]

I agree. This thread isn't done until somebody tries all the culinary travesties mentioned earlier and rates them from -10 to 0.

 

[The Star King]

Insert tall post with no content here.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Until they act like the professionals they're supposed to be.

How in the world does that imply such a thing?
I don't even understand how you can justify that.

You're obligated to act professional (properly) at tournaments because that's the right thing to do. How you can sit there and argue that one doesn't have to act right is just terrible.

We do it to maintain both dignity and integrity of the competitive community. That should be a primary goal of ALL players, especially the upper echelon that represents the community. Whether they like it or not, they need to set an example.

Espy Kasrani implies that top players are "Professionals"

Espy Kasrani then implies that he didnt say they were professionals but instead that all people should be acting professional because that's how people should act.

Umbreon states that he believes that trying to control the way our players act is not our responsibility nor is it something we should do

Espy Kasrani implies we should do the opposite of that





Umbreon's entire argument is that we can attempt to stop splitting by adding rules that in no way alter the mindset or behaviors of our players. If you put in rules like "Prizes are not final until the tournament is completed" you're actively discouraging splitting, but still allowing players to play how they want. His exact argument is "You cant necessarily stop splitting from happening but you can still guide players to at least participate"

If you cannot understand this argument, you are ********. Im not sugar coating it for you, stop attempting to debate. It's not that hard to figure out.

GIMR, I understand that the stream is extremely important to you, and I understand that you put a large amount of work into it and VGBootcamp. I understand that you hope to use the stream to widen the audience of Melee. You need to understand that the only thing that has any weight at a tournament are the people actually at a tournament and the only people who can choose how the players act during a tournament is the players themselves. If anything YOU need to stop letting the stream monsters dictate how you act. This is not a spectator event, it's a competitive event that some people may want to watch. If they dont enjoy what they see it is NEVER the jobs of the people playing to change what their doing. If it was Hbox would be banned from all streams all the time, in the eternal hell of defensive players along with Chris G, Dieminion and MVC2 JWong.

 

[unknown522]

I like that post

 

[EthereaL]

I think it's silly to assume that the stream or community opinions matter little.

I think it's equally silly to allow the stream or community to dictate how the players play.

I think it is less silly to allow the stream or community to dictate the attitudes that players can display (in a code of conduct sense).

If two players wanted to sandbag, that's their loss at a "prestigious" event. Open splitting, if the community finds it distasteful, should be banned from future tournaments.

Regarding whether or not our "pros" are "professionals"... They have hundreds, if not thousands, of fans. That, more than any amount of money, demonstrates the colloquial professional.

I don't even know why this thread is still open.

 

[-ACE-]

im not going to apex, i just posted to get ur hopes up

rofl ****.

I'd like to see the MM's anyway though, I'd put money on mahone.

 

[GimR]

Espy Kasrani implies that top players are

GIMR, I understand that the stream is extremely important to you, and I understand that you put a large amount of work into it and VGBootcamp. I understand that you hope to use the stream to widen the audience of Melee. You need to understand that the only thing that has any weight at a tournament are the people actually at a tournament and the only people who can choose how the players act during a tournament is the players themselves. If anything YOU need to stop letting the stream monsters dictate how you act. This is not a spectator event, it's a competitive event that some people may want to watch. If they dont enjoy what they see it is NEVER the jobs of the people playing to change what their doing. If it was Hbox would be banned from all streams all the time, in the eternal hell of defensive players along with Chris G, Dieminion and MVC2 JWong.

No stream monsters dictated how I acted.

If I'm there streaming and hired by the TO then it damn well is a spectator event. Otherwise I wouldn't be there and matches wouldn't be sent to the stream.

Now you're changing sandbagging to playing defensively to win. I never said players couldn't play defensively. That's a straw man.

Umbreon: As long as you realize it was ridiculous to make that statement earlier then we're good.

You're way of doing it sounds like a great idea. Has the MBR decided to do that or is it still under discussion?

 

[Lovage]

wow its like everybody watched lincoln

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The topic was a preparation for watching the movie. Oh, well. Time to move forward to the future.

 

[Max?]

wow its like everybody watched lincoln

Best post in the thread.

Btw this thread is ***

 

[Deleted member]

You're way of doing it sounds like a great idea. Has the MBR decided to do that or is it still under discussion?

I expect to make a formal statement tomorrow. Well, "tommorrow". you know what I mean.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

No stream monsters dictated how I acted.

If I'm there streaming and hired by the TO then it damn well is a spectator event. Otherwise I wouldn't be there and matches wouldn't be sent to the stream.

Now you're changing sandbagging to playing defensively to win. I never said players couldn't play defensively. That's a straw man.

No. Calm down and read his post carefully.

Your argument: "Sandbagging and splitting detract from the spectator aspect of Melee. Therefore they should be banned."

Pink Reaper's argument: "Defensive play detracts from the spectator aspect of Melee. Therefore, by your logic, it should be banned. ... Oh wait, that would be ridiculous. Maybe there's a flaw in your logic."

 

[Tink]

yooooo....im watching dreamhack, sf4 going down right now....and they jusss had winners quarters and they had laugh vs infiltration fighting....neither player complained and no "floating" was ever considered.....smash needs to get on this level...were complaining ppl in the same region, that plays each other alot, need to be switched in winners semis? this should never be considered again.

ggs, we suck/

 

[Divinokage]

yooooo....im watching dreamhack, sf4 going down right now....and they jusss had winners quarters and they had laugh vs infiltration fighting....neither player complained and no "floating" was ever considered.....smash needs to get on this level...were complaining ppl in the same region, that plays each other alot, need to be switched in winners semis? this should never be considered again.

ggs, we suck/

The difference here is that these players are actually sponsored so they can't **** around as they please but unfortunately I don't think every player wants that kind of thing here.

Regarding whether or not our "pros" are "professionals"... They have hundreds, if not thousands, of fans. That, more than any amount of money, demonstrates the colloquial professional.

What if those fans gave $ to cover travel expenses to be able to see them play on the stream? Would they still sandbag? Wouldn't that be a slap in the face for these guys?

 

[Tink]

still....at a 100+ person tournament, there should never be switching of the bracket in winners semis because 2 players play alot....if u get to top 5, u play who u get matched up with...i seen players saying this happens alot at other tournaments, but that just hugely false...this almost neverrr happens(outside of smash).