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ROM 5 - Mew2King vs Unknown522

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Juggleguy

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Considering the number of people complaining about how the "final three sets" were split at ROM 5, I'm surprised at how little discussion there is about what I believe is the source of the mess: the Game 5 rematch in the Winners Semis set between Mew2King and Unknown. Have you considered what state of mind these guys were in after this debacle? Put yourself in Mew2King's shoes; you've just been the victim of a poor TOing decision and robbed of a victory, and now everyone is asking you to play three extra sets for the audience's entertainment. Yeah, I don't think you'd be so pumped up to do that either.

We haven't even begun to talk about how Unknown and Eggm were swapped to opposite sides of Winners Semis. I've always believed that poor TOing decisions can carry over to the players' mindsets and result in messes like these, and I think we saw an example of this at ROM 5.

I want to preface this post by saying that I was only a stream viewer this weekend, so I'm sure my understanding of the situation is not as full as someone who witnessed it in-person. If anything stated below is a grossly inaccurate report of what happened, please correct me and I will fix it. The point of this post is NOT to put immediate blame on anyone involved, though there is definitely blame to go around. The point of this post is to inform people about the controversy that went down at ROM 5 with a focus on the Winners Semis set between Mew2King and Unknown, and to discuss the lessons we need to learn from this as a community.

---

The Facts (an unbiased explanation about exactly what happened)

Mew2King vs Unknown sit down to play Winners Semis, a best-of-5 set.

Unknown wins Game 1 on Battlefield
Mew2King wins Game 2 on Final Destination
Mew2King wins Game 3 on Fountain of Dreams
Unknown wins Game 4 on Fountain of Dreams

Mew2King counterpicks FD for Game 5, under the pretense that Modified DSR is in effect. For those who don't know, Modified DSR is a rule stating that you cannot counterpick the stage you last won on in a set. Under the Modified DSR rule, Mew2King is 100% allowed to counterpick FD for Game 5.

Unknown questions the ability to counterpick FD, under the pretense that Standard DSR is in effect. For those who don't know, Standard DSR is a rule stating that you cannot counterpick any stage you have won on in a set. Under the Standard DSR rule, Mew2King is not allowed to counterpick FD for Game 5.

At this point, Mew2King assures him that Modified DSR is in effect, as it has been at virtually every major tourney in 2012, including Apex 2012, WinterGameFest VII, SMYM 13, Northwest Manifest, Zenith, Smashers Reunion, Rule 6 Regional, Big House 2, and Kings of Cali (yes, I did check each and every one of those tourneys' threads to confirm this). Without confirming the rules with the TOs, they go ahead to play out the match, and Mew2King wins Game 5 on Final Destination.

After this, it is brought up to the TO, Alukard, that Mew2King counterpicked FD for Game 5. Alukard cites the ROM 5 Smashboards thread that says Standard DSR is in effect, not Modified DSR. Based on this, he decides to force Mew2King and Unknown to go back and replay Game 5 on a different stage. Mew2King comes back to the setup and counterpicks Yoshi's Story. Unknown wins this Game 5 rematch.

---

What Went Wrong (my completely biased opinion about the mishandlings of the situation)

1. The TOs decided to use a strange rule that no other major tourney in 2012 has used. We can debate the pros and cons of Standard DSR vs Modified DSR in best-of-5 sets all we want, but the bottomline is this: ROM 5 is the only major tourney in 2012 that decided to use Standard DSR for best-of-5 sets. On the other hand, here's the list of tourneys that used Modified DSR for best-of-5 sets: Apex 2012, WinterGameFest VII, SMYM 13, Northwest Manifest, Zenith, Smashers Reunion, Rule 6 Regional, Big House 2, Kings of Cali. Although ROM 5's different take on the rule was mentioned in the Smashboards thread, it was NOT clearly communicated to the attendees. As a TO, when you go against the status quo and decide to use a rule different from one used at every other major tournament, you need to clearly communicate that to your attendees. MELEE-FC10R is a great example of a tourney that did this SUCCESSFULLY with its info packet and entire thread dedicated to ruleset discussion. ROM 5 failed at this.

2. Unknown522 did not confirm the rules with the TOs before the set. A common opinion in the stream seemed to be that Mew2King "lied" to Unknown, telling him Modified DSR was in play in order to counterpick FD for Game 5. My response to this is... really? Let's think about a hypothetical example. If I told you before a tourney set that we're supposed to play a best-of-1 set and you go ahead with it, then after the match you found out it was done wrong, who is to blame? It's not my fault, it's YOUR fault for starting the match without getting TO clarification. It is completely unfair to blame Mew2King for this. The player who objects is the one responsible for getting clarification from the TOs. It's really not that hard to understand; if you have a problem with something, it's your responsibility to step up and deal with it. Unknown522 should have gotten TO clarification before playing if he felt like a rule wasn't being followed. Mew2King should not have been responsible for this.

3. The players were wrongly forced to replay Game 5. Yes, Standard DSR was stated as the rule in effect in the ROM 5 Smashboards thread. Yes, Mew2King and Unknown played out Game 5 on a stage that shouldn't have been allowed under the stated rules, no matter how bad those rules were. With that said, as a TO, you should NOT ask players to replay a game whose outcome has already been decided. As a player, if you fail to get TO clarification on the rules and you go ahead to play out the match, then you live with the result. Having to replay a match messes with the mindset of both players and is especially unfair to the player who won the original match, EVEN IF if that match was played under a slightly different take on the rules. The original Genesis is a great example of a tourney that did this SUCCESSFULLY with their decision to uphold the Mew2King vs Armada outcome since both players had gone ahead and played out their set under one set of assumptions. ROM 5 failed at this.

---

tldr;

Mew2King got robbed in Winners Semis.

ROM 5 used a strange rule, Standard DSR for best-of-5 sets, that has not been used at ANY major tourney in 2012, and this different take on the rule was not clearly communicated to the attendees. In the future, every major tournament needs to clearly communicate its ruleset to all attendees, especially RULES THAT GO AGAINST THE STATUS QUO, in an effort to cut down on wasted time and needless confusion.

The players failed to confirm rules with the TOs before playing out their set, resulting in unnecessary confusion. In the future, we need to emphasize a simple fact: the player who objects to an understanding of a rule is the one responsible for checking with the TO! This is a pretty simple concept to understand; if you object to something, then it's your problem to solve. In this case, it's Unknown's responsibility, not Mew2King's.

And finally, the TOs subsequently failed to handle the situation properly because they wrongly asked the players to replay Game 5 of their set. After an original outcome is decided based on assumptions that both players go ahead and play with, you need to live with the result. In the future, every major tournament thread needs to include a section explaining how it will deal with a ruleset misunderstanding by its players.

So I argue that the Game 5 rematch in Winners Semis set between Mew2King and Unknown is what eventually led to the splitting mentality, and you know the unfortunate part of it all? Everything could have been avoided. If the players had easy access to Alukard for ruleset clarification during that set. If the players had simply read up on the rules beforehand. If the rules were properly advertised to begin with. If the rules had followed the precedent set by the first nine major Melee tournaments of 2012.

What other lessons can we learn from ROM 5, and what steps should we take as a community to ensure nothing like this happens again?
 

The Business

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m2k went to an illegal stage and convinced his opponent it was legal.

they should not have replayed the last game, m2k should have auto-lost the last game.
 

Prince_Abu

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m2k went to an illegal stage and convinced his opponent it was legal.

they should not have replayed the last game, m2k should have auto-lost the last game.
not true, its just as much unknowns responsibility to know the rules as it is m2ks
 

darkoblivion12

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Small thing you missed: Alucard was not readily available while the set was being played. They asked if it was legit, didn't get an answer, and just played anyway.
 

Juggleguy

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m2k went to an illegal stage and convinced his opponent it was legal.

they should not have replayed the last game, m2k should have auto-lost the last game.
No. This is how I see it:

Mew2King did nothing wrong, making a counterpick choice that would have been legal at ANY of the other nine major tourneys in 2012. Unknown went ahead and played out Game 5 even though it's his responsibility to get clarification if he feels like a rule isn't being followed. They should not have replayed the last game; Mew2King should have held onto his win because of the reasons mentioned in my original post, and Unknown should have lived with the result. The TOs should have clearly communicated the fact that they were using a rule, Standard DSR in best-of-5s, that no other major tourney in 2012 has used with this current stagelist, in the first place.
 

Green Ranger

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Should players be forced to replay matches if they go to an illegal stage?

I don't think they should be. I think it is the responsibility of both players to know the rules of the tournament. Unknown agreed to go to an illegal stage, he should have known better.
 

Lovage

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you're not supposed to use regular DSR with the new stagelist, that slipped by everybody's attention without the tourny even starting

and then forcing them to replay the match is just beyond dumb LOL
 

The Business

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not true, its just as much unknowns responsibility to know the rules as it is m2ks
it was m2k's stage pick not unknown's. m2k should have been the one checking the rules to make sure he wasn't making an illegal stage pick.
 

Juggleguy

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it was m2k's stage pick not unknown's. m2k should have been the one checking the rules to make sure he wasn't making an illegal stage pick.
Another one of your posts that is pretty much completely wrong...

Read the OP:

If I told you before a tourney set that we're supposed to play a best-of-1 match and you agreed to it, then after the match you found out it was done wrong, whose fault is it? It's not my fault, it's YOUR fault for starting the match without asking for TO clarification.

The player who objects is the player responsible for checking with the TO. Why should the initiating player be responsible?
 

Ripple

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I counter picked pokefloats at APEX 2012.

no one gave me **** for it when I won
 

Twinkles

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The Business is completely wrong. *looks at Nov 2012 join date* possibly a troll
Or just a newbie lurker.

But man, I've never had so much un-fun at a smash stream, even including apex 2012 GF's, at least I had fun screaming for Hbox to take Armada to a second set and make the longest GF's in melee history.

This was just sad. Except Hazz, Hazz was tight.
 

KanyeRest

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Or just a newbie lurker.

But man, I've never had so much un-fun at a smash stream, even including apex 2012 GF's, at least I had fun screaming for Hbox to take Armada to a second set and make the longest GF's in melee history.

This was just sad. Except Hazz, Hazz was tight.
shoutouts to alukard too. i felt bad his premier tourney was disrespected like that.
 

Anand

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If Unknown522 won game 5, would Alukard have made them replay it? If the answer is "no", that makes this even more ridiculous. (Even so, I think they should have let the result stand.)
 

BetaBahamut

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I was under the impression that in the new bo5 rules there are no bans and thus there are 6 possible stages so standard dsr would easily work.
 

Ripple

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we were discussing it but it has not been implemented yet
 

Juggleguy

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Things Alukard did wrong:
1. used a strange rule (Standard DSR for best-of-5 sets) that has not been present at ANY of the other nine major tourneys in 2012
2. did not clearly communicate this strange rule to the attendees of the tourney
3. made Mew2King and Unknown replay Game 5 after the outcome had been decided

Things Unknown522 did wrong:
1. did not get confirmation from the TO(s) about what the rules were before starting to play Game 5

Things Mew2King did wrong:
1. assumed that a rule (Modified DSR for best-of-5 sets) was in play because it has been at ALL of the other nine major tourneys in 2012

You can decide for yourself who shoulders the most blame... but it's definitely not Mew2King.
 

dkuo

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I agree with Alukard's points other than 2 - it was in the thread description and it's the players' responsibility to actually read that stuff.

Unless it's not, in which case damn. I'm pretty sure it is though.




This doesn't reflect my opinion of Alukard <_< I thought he did pretty well with the tournament but that's just me.
 

Doser

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If Unknown522 won game 5, would Alukard have made them replay it? If the answer is "no", that makes this even more ridiculous. (Even so, I think they should have let the result stand.)
No that's not true.

Let's say we are playing a game that revolves around rolling dice. I gave you loaded dice that generally get 3's more often than fair dice and you didn't notice.

The goal of the game is to get the least 3's after 20 rolls.

If you somehow beat me even with dice that are stacked against you, good stuff and everyone would be happy you beat the person who is bending the rules. We wouldn't play it over.

If I won, and it was discovered that I had an unfair advantage, then you're damn right I should have been DQ'd or have the game played over.
 

leffen

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Standard DSR is MUCHHHH better than modified DSR. Why should he be able to go back to FD in the first place? (think about how if unknown wouldve won 2-0 in the start, m2k can't win on FD twice, but if it goes 1-0, 1-1 and 1-2 he can? awful, awful rule).


However, m2k should not have been forced to replay it.
 
D

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from a MBR rules standpoint, this is on unknown for accepting and playing out the last match that he lost, and would probably fall into the "gentleman's clause" portion of the rule set. from an ethics or community standpoint, it's totally debatable.
 

Fuzzyness

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please discuss this in the tournament thread / results thread

otherwise the boards will become clogged

theres no reason that one tournament should change how smashboards is suddenly used + layed out
 

BetaBahamut

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Things Alukard did wrong:
1. used a strange rule (Standard DSR for best-of-5 sets) that has not been present at ANY of the other nine major tourneys in 2012
I just checked the KoC OP and they used standard dsr no bans bo5. I dont think you can jump on alus back even if this is a weird ruleset.(which i dont think it was) what if by some strange reason corneria and brinstar was on. Does he have to go around telling everyone or does all he have to do is post it in the ruleset on the thread?
 

Anand

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No that's not true.

Let's say we are playing a game that revolves around rolling dice. I gave you loaded dice that generally get 3's more often than fair dice and you didn't notice.

The goal of the game is to get the least 3's after 20 rolls.

If you somehow beat me even with dice that are stacked against you, good stuff and everyone would be happy you beat the person who is bending the rules. We wouldn't play it over.

If I won, and it was discovered that I had an unfair advantage, then you're damn right I should have been DQ'd or have the game played over.
If you replay game 5 regardless of results, that's equivalent to not playing it at all (discounting the fact that it messes with people's mindsets).

If you replay game 5 only if the unfairly advantaged person wins it, then you actually give the other player an advantage overall (because they have two chances to win).

Your example was even more silly, because it's obvious via basic math that the game is fair if we unconditionally replay it with un-stacked dice, but my overall probability of winning is greater than yours if we only replay it if I lose the first game. (This is assuming a 100% chance of discovering the advantage after the fact, of course.)
 

Doser

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If you replay game 5 regardless of results, that's equivalent to not playing it at all (discounting the fact that it messes with people's mindsets).

If you replay game 5 only if the unfairly advantaged person wins it, then you actually give the other player an advantage overall (because they have two chances to win).

Your example was even more silly, because it's obvious via basic math that the game is fair if we unconditionally replay it with un-stacked dice, but my overall probability of winning is greater than yours if we only replay it if I lose the first game. (This is assuming a 100% chance of discovering the advantage after the fact, of course.)
You cannot be this stupid. The idea is to punish someone for cheating/bending the rules.
It's not even a big punishment, and you're assuming we will always figure it out. We won't and if there is no punishment at all, and it's only a minor statistical one, then it is implicitly encouraging people to try to screw around.

If I am not in anyway punished by giving you loaded dice, then why wouldn't I do it every time I play on the off chance no one will notice?
 

t3h Icy

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Things Alukard did wrong:1. used a strange rule (Standard DSR for best-of-5 sets) that has not been present at ANY of the other nine major tourneys in 2012
Apex is using it, NEC is using it, KoC used it.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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On second thought this thread is more constructive in discussion so I'll redirect splitting and RoM5 discussion here.
 

Juggleguy

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Apex is using it, NEC is using it, KoC used it.
1. Apex uses Modified DSR, check their website yourself: http://www.apex-series.com/rules/rules-melee/
2. NEC isn't a Melee major by any means, and I don't think it's relevant to this discussion.
3. KoC used Modified DSR, despite what its original thread might say. I just confirmed this with TheCrimsonBlur himself through Facebook.

Here's the list of major tourneys that used Modified DSR in best-of-5 sets:
Apex 2012, WinterGameFest VII, SMYM 13, Northwest Manifest, Zenith, Smashers Reunion, Rule 6 Regional, Big House 2, Kings of Cali, Apex 2013

Here's the list of major tourneys that used Standard DSR in best-of-5 sets:
ROM 5

Something is very wrong here.
 

Fuzzyness

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Any other RoM5 threads will result in an infraction

feel free to discuss here

sorry if it seems like we're being over controlling but the boards was a mess a few mins ago :p
 

Anand

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The idea is to punish someone for cheating/bending the rules.
It's not even a big punishment, and you're assuming we will always figure it out. We won't and if there is no punishment at all, and it's only a minor statistical one, then it is implicitly encouraging people to try to screw around.

If I am not in anyway punished by giving you loaded dice, then why wouldn't I do it every time I play on the off chance no one will notice?
Oh, I was assuming it wasn't M2K's fault or intentional trickery by M2K. I thought it was just as much M2K's fault as Unknown's (an honest mistake regarding a subtle rule that only affects a couple sets in any given tournament [since it's only close bo5 sets that are affected]). That's why I didn't feel M2K should be "punished" -- if it's clearly intentional, then I might go even further in agreeing with you: he should just be DQ'd and they shouldn't replay the match (if a rule is set out in advance that this sort of trickery is a DQ-able offense).

You cannot be this stupid.
I'm flattered that you think I'm even smarter than my posts suggest. :)
 

EthereaL

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Gentleman's clause trumps the entire situation. The replay was just dumb.

Also, splitting in of itself is fairly unethical / unfair (as it has been decided by almost every tournament-governing body ever), but I don't know what happened regarding that. Could someone fill me in, please?

:phone:
 

MattDotZeb

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1. Apex uses Modified DSR, check their website yourself: http://www.apex-series.com/rules/rules-melee/
2. NEC isn't a Melee major by any means, and I don't think it's relevant to this discussion.
3. KoC used Modified DSR, despite what its original thread might say. I just confirmed this with TheCrimsonBlur himself through Facebook.

Here's the list of major tourneys that used Modified DSR in best-of-5 sets:
Apex 2012, WinterGameFest VII, SMYM 13, Northwest Manifest, Zenith, Smashers Reunion, Rule 6 Regional, Big House 2, Kings of Cali, Apex 2013

Here's the list of major tourneys that used Standard DSR in best-of-5 sets:
ROM 5

Something is very wrong here.
NEC is using the same ruleset as Apex 2013, for what it's worth.
 

Twinkles

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Gentleman's clause trumps the entire situation. The replay was just dumb.

Also, splitting in of itself is fairly unethical / unfair (as it has been decided by almost every tournament-governing body ever), but I don't know what happened regarding that. Could someone fill me in, please?

:phone:
mew2king, kk, and unknown split 3-way. wf, lf, and gf were all significantly less hype because of it. check out the rom5 tournament thread for the ensuing drama.
 
D

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I'd argue that the gentleman's clause is only in effect when both parties are aware it is outside the rules.
it is on the tournament players to know and understand the rules prior to the tournament. if there is any confusion about the rules, it is also on the player to ask the TOs how to resolve an issue.

this doesn't say anything about who or what caused the error, more than likely it was a simple honest mistake in communication. it would be wise of us to withhold persecution until the situation is fully understood.
 

reslived

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Apparently pot splitting has been allowed for too long in this community. I would like to explain WHY POT SPLITTING IS BAD at major events looking at all of the major parties involved.

The main groups involved are 1. The Fans, 2. The Organizers, and 3. The Players

1. The Fans. In an event with 3K+ viewers, the fans are obviously a very important part of the event. Casual watchers use events to a) invite others to the scene, b) learn more about the game and c) just have fun. When the Pros are not playing to their fullest skill then the fans can not enjoy the stream as much, dissuading them from watching. This causes the scene to shrink rather than grow, thus making the ENTIRE event counter-intuitive. You can argue that pot-splitting does not necessarily mean that "the players are not trying their best," but part of watching a major grand finals is seeing one player overcome their nervousness and remain cool in a high-pressure situation. Taking out the pressure lessens the importance of the tournament.

2. The Organizers. I do not know the exact structure of the stream and the tournament, but I will assume that the organizers earned zero dollars from this event and their sole goal was to promote the scene. They went through the work of attracting 3K viewers and attracting a number of popular entrants in an attempt to make the scene more professional and appealing. However, having pot-splitting at an event lessens the importance to the fans as stated above. Thus, the tournament takes a hit, and so do the tournament organizers. After all the work they put in to make this a major event for the scene, the actions of the players have deterred possible viewers, thus making the scene SMALLER. This is the opposite of what the organizers wanted, and thus they may be deterred from putting on more tournaments in the future (in this case, not very likely, but maybe they will not stream or will not feature as many matches, etc).

3. The players. This is the tough one. Who are we as players? Are we just people trying to earn money? Or are we professional gamers? Professional e-sports athletes? I would argue that the pros now have to act more like professionals in this scene or the scene will not grow. The scene has fans, organizers, events, all of which cater to the possibility of great shows of skill and ability by the players. Pot-splitting hurts that ideal. Players act only in self-interest, thus not necessarily playing their best. If players do not play their best, then events get blacklisted, fans become uninterested, and organizers become deterred from creating future events.



I am seeing many people argue for a ban on pot-splitting from here on out, and I agree whole-heartedly. However I also see many people defend the act of pot-splitting simply because it allows people to give up when they are tired or maintain a solid income through the game. Self-interest and Personal Gain do not give anything to Smash. We as a community to agree that our professionals need a threshold of behavior. I have high hopes for smash and I hope it grows huge, but keeping and defending these shady practices will only stagnate its growth.
 
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