ROM 5 - Mew2King vs Unknown522

[Bl@ckChris]

hmm guess i need to hit the stream and watch LF...

 

[GimR]

I was very aggressive but I didn't technically force anyone to do anything I just yelled at them because I was rightfully pissed. I guess I was so forceful they felt like they had to agree. You gotta understand though, I just got back from Cali, I did this event for free. I lost $300 including expenses and time off work. All I wanted was a legit looking finals.

Like before finals I saw M2K take Unknown to the side. So I walked up to him and I was like, "are you asking him to split?"

and M2K was like, "yeah"

and then I walked away and M2K was like, "don't you want to hear my side of the story?"

and I said no and walked away.

I'm getting sick of this soft **** to be honest. I remember when I first played Melee competitively and there were so many rivalries. People just wanted to win. I'm trying to get stream viewers so this community can finally get sponsors so we can things like pot bonuses, etc. And you guys are all throwing it away because you're tired at 10pm at night? Where's the hunger? where's the passion to be the best? To win your first national?

BTW, I do think M2K kinda got ****ed in winners and he did try in losers and grands.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't remember if Alukard said we had to play or not in addition to you. I think he did, though. I'll ask Unknown when he gets off work since he tends to have a better memory for details like that.

FWIW I didn't take a split and I played one of my finals legitimately (LFs). And I was prepared to play the other legitimately but Unknown quit. Only reason I goofed off was because I felt like I was being forced to play after I'd already won anyway and with all the other nonsense that had happened up to that point I didn't have much motivation left. This wasn't even a really prestigious tournament to win since the only top level player present was M2K. People are acting like this was as high caliber as the Rule 6 I went to or TBH2 or something but it honestly wasn't even close to that in terms of difficulty and therefore... I dunno. I wouldn't even call it a national. Too many people bailed.

I guess I've been kind of selfish though. Sorry for ruining your streaming experience, etc. I guess since appearance is everything I'll just pretend to be interested next time =/

 

[Trypt]

This wasn't even a really prestigious tournament to win since the only top level player present was M2K.

This is such a slap in the face to Alucard, and others for hosting this event, and to Gimr and VGBootcamp for trying to stream good quality content. The fact that you take this less seriously because it wasn't a "prestigious tournament" says a lot about you as a player.

Frankly I find it disgusting that players in general wouldn't be trying there best to win everything they can. It really discourages those of us who are TRYING to be as good as them.

I'm very disappointed.

 

[KirbyKaze]

You can feel whatever you want



edit:

I took it less seriously because of all the stupid crap that happened throughout the tournament

And I was prepared to play srsly until they revived a dead set

Once they revived a 2nd dead set I basically lost interest in the tournament

I couldn't get into it on the grounds of, "OMG there's PP and Mango and Hbox and..." like at Impulse, and I couldn't get into it on the grounds of, "This was an awesome event and I'm really psyched for finals" because of the craziness that transpired.

And, as I stated to 10th, if you don't like it then beat me. Keep me out of WFs.

 

[10th]

This is such a slap in the face to Alucard, and others for hosting this event, and to Gimr and VGBootcamp for trying to stream good quality content. The fact that you take this less seriously because it wasn't a "prestigious tournament" says a lot about you as a player.

Frankly I find it disgusting that players in general wouldn't be trying there best to win everything they can. It really discourages those of us who are TRYING to be as good as them.

I'm very disappointed.

You can feel whatever you want

Couldn't agree with you more Trypt. And I'm sure a lot of people feel this way. And it's also a slap in the face to the rest of the competition there, such as Hax and Eggm and Scar, etc, who played their best and really wanted to win

 

[t3h Icy]

I still don't understand why Kirby Pichu couldn't be played out. It would have been legit and hype but we need to play top tiers? Bottom line, Unknown wanted to forfeit, forcing him to play for a stream isn't going to make it any more interesting. I mean ****, we let DJN do some legit **** with bowser, does anybody realise where the name kirbykaze comes from and people don't know about unknown's Pichu. In the name of entertainment, I wanted to see it. In the name of competitive spirit, they were ****ing done at that point. Not done because they split but just plain done, or so it seemed to me.

Why? High level play of Low tiers is one of the most amazing things ever. Would you try and stop Mango from playing Mario? Taj from playing Mewtwo? You even play a Low tier, if me and you were playing on stream would you tell me not to go Mewtwo and would you not go G&W? I've never actually seen Unknowns Pichu, but I've heard plenty of people talk about how amazing it is, some even calling it the best in the world. And I would assume that KIRBYKaze chose that name for a reason. Unknown's Pichu vs KK's Kirby would have been an amazing thing to see. Stopping it from happening would be the same as stopping Armada Young Link vs Mango Mario. ****ing Stupid.

tl;dr: Kirby vs Pichu in winners finals would have been hype.

The difference is that DJN choosing Bowser gave him the best chance to win (due to match-up inexperience for Chillin), whereas if KK would want to beat Unknown's Pichu, he'd want to stay Sheik. Funny enough, Fox would ideally be used for KK's Kirby too, lol.

Likewise with past tournaments where Taj used Mewtwo, Armada used Young Link, etc, to give them the greatest chance to win. Mango's Mario is a bit different since he's still beating people, and a lot of his matches at majors (Apex 2010) were off-stream anyway. Then he got bodied, lol.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Couldn't agree with you more Trypt. And I'm sure a lot of people feel this way. And it's also a slap in the face to the rest of the competition there, such as Hax and Eggm and Scar, etc, who played their best and really wanted to win

You don't like it?

Beat me. Keep me out of WFs.

 

[10th]

You don't like it?

Beat me. Keep me out of WFs.

In all honesty, you're right, I don't have the right to judge.

Maybe that attitude will inspire more people to level up their game to do just that.

EDIT: Besides all this, I'm still a fan of your sheik, so I'll be rooting for you vs Armada and such in the future. We all just want hype matches and that competitive spirit, not spite and ill will

 

[Elen]

First of all, everyone needs to relax about the splitting situation. Sure, there's a right and wrong way to do it, but in the end it's going to happen and people need to accept that. If friends are willing to share the profits of this kind of event, so be it. The important thing is that they play it out, and try to put on a good show since viewership is SUPPOSED to be a main revenue draw for e-sports. For that reason, I would recommend people try and not flaunt the fact that there's a split, but it's not something you can stop people from doing. You can make them do the math themselves, but that's the extent of it.

In my opinion, the only necessary fact to look at in this situation, is the fact that both players played the match on final destination. Once a match has been played, it has been played.

By playing the match and not finding a TO, Unknown agreed to any discrepancy of the rules. You do not replay a match, you wait until you know the rules if you have an issue. This is a lesson everyone should know, you are only causing issues when you play a match and are unsure of the rules. Check them yourself, or find an organizer.

No matter how I look at the situation, Mew2King comes out as the victim. You don't re-arrange brackets, if the rules don't explicitly say they will be seeded by location, then the TO has no obligation to do so. To then bend the bracket to do something not even in writing is ridiculous. That's entirely beside the point though.

Alucard is a great guy, but this is a prime example of the lack of professionalism in the melee hosting scene. We need to get it together. This was absolutely appalling to see, and M2K truly deserves an apology and compensation.

People should stand up, admit that they made a mistake, and take responsibility. The facts are clear, and I'm in full agreement with the original author of this thread.

Edit Clause: I didn't read the whole thread, and my understanding is only what I saw, and heard from the author of this thread. If I am misinformed I apologize for my brashness, and would like to know the error in my understanding via PM if possible.

 

[Divinokage]

You don't like it?

Beat me. Keep me out of WFs.

It's not that simple, we can just as well.. don't like it? Then you can be banned from tournaments for conduct such as this. The power is in the community not the top players, if the community didn't exist your skills mean nothing.

 

[Rood]

Man that stinks for M2K

 

[Zankoku]

I've yet to actually see an EC major actively ban a top player for the act of splitting in the past. Really, MLG's the only organization I've seen introduce a ban and actually make good on it, which ironically is probably because it didn't listen to the community's complaints about how "it's too harsh" or "ban them from one that doesn't matter as much as the championships".

 

[KirbyKaze]

It's not that simple, we can just as well.. don't like it? Then you can be banned from tournaments for conduct such as this. The power is in the community not the top players, if the community didn't exist your skills mean nothing.

If I didn't know better I'd say you want me banned, Kage.

 

[Chroma]

It's not that simple, we can just as well.. don't like it? Then you can be banned from tournaments for conduct such as this. The power is in the community not the top players, if the community didn't exist your skills mean nothing.

I mean, what did KK do that's so wrong here? He played M2k seriously, and didn't feel like beating up on his friend who wasn't into it. Neither of these things sound like they're objectively bad, let along ban-worthy. You can talk about fighting spirit, but downthrowing Unknown's pichu around battlefield for three games doesn't sound like "the way of the warrior" or whatever.

I guess I'm not following why people are so unhappy with his attitude about ROM5. Warrior language: He's trying to go after the famed champions (Mango, PP, Hbox, M2k, Armada), and only one of them was there, so it's not as exciting to beat up on the younger warriors. The fact that there weren't a massive amount of top/god tier players there isn't a reflection on Alukard's TOing abilities and services - it was a simple reality of the situation. When WC doesn't come out heavy to an event, it's not considered as much of a "national" because they have an overwhelming number of players of that caliber.

 

[Divinokage]

If I didn't know better I'd say you want me banned, Kage.

No but you act like as if your selfish actions are the only things that matter which is completely upside down.

 

[❀W.E.M.P.❀]

Yo i know there is a bunch of drama and stuff
but one thing i noticed on the stream no one has mentioned

When kirbykaze wore those giant thick rimmed glasses with the shirt/tie

He totally looked like an adorable gender swapped Zooey Deschanel from New Girl

it got my heart a flutter

 

[GimR]

Just to let everyone know, I have nothing personally against either of the players who participated in the split. I just hope they know now that when playing on my stream that it's really bad if they pull this again.

In retrospect I should've just let everyone forfeit what wanted to forfeit. I just wish people weren't so soft.

 

[JPOBS]

And, as I stated to 10th, if you don't like it then beat me. Keep me out of WFs.

lol scrubs on blast!

 

[10th]

Haha gotta start somewhere, man :D

 

[Dark Hart]

The only thing I can't get my head around is the self importance of everyone who's not KK, Unknown, M2K, Hax, eggm, Alukard, hell even GIMR, or whoever was involved. People are lossing respect for these people? For what? Because Canada travele down and felt they were getting ****ed? Because m2k lost a set he won, simultaneously making him KK and unknown all lose motivation to play? (which is another thing I know but still)

Put yourself in their shoes for few minutes

I understand that maybe we should have a discussion about splitting, but the people getting aggravated at the attitudes of these players is appalling

tl;dr **** Kage for being so awesomely good hearted he almost seems like a **** sometimes

 

[Bones0]

If I were in their shoes I would be pooping on kids in Melee instead of being emo.

Just sayin'.

 

[PB&J]

i dont think anyone should be banned

lets just enforce rules better

have 1 minute so called "button checks"

get over it

and focus on nec and apex

 

[ZeldaFreak0309]

i dont think anyone should be banned

lets just enforce rules better

have 1 minute so called "button checks"

get over it

and focus on nec and apex

i agree with this

i think everyone who did something wrong is more than aware of it by now

 

[Mew2King]

I don't understand why people are so quick to blame M2k for so much. Like was said, splitting kept secret wouldn't have been a problem.

dude the VGbootcamp guys came up to me and asked me if i split, and i told them the truth, a yes. Should I have lied when i was asked that question?

Not to go into this again, but I believe M2K is getting the majority of the blame as situations like this involving him have been known to happen in the past.

I've never had to replay a tourney match that i had already won on to redo it. If it's done it's done.

 

[KrazyKnux]

No. What Kal is saying is that when a TO is forced to uphold an unenforceable rule, then you are creating a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't situation for them.

Unless you are very lucky, you can't prove there is a splitting agreement. You're saying that the TO should just bite the bullet and DQ if he thinks something is fishy, but you're overlooking that the uncertainty goes both ways: Unless you are very lucky, you can't prove there ISN'T a splitting agreement. Thus, the TO's decision to NOT DQ someone is biting the bullet just as hard. No matter what the TO does, there will be people who disagree (since there's no proof), and when that happens, the TO will be unable to defend himself (since there's no proof) and stands to lose his rep and hurt future tourneys even if his hunch is right (since there's no proof).

If you want the players to hide splitting agreements, you should make a rule stating that players must hide splitting agreements, not a rule stating that TOs have to put their own necks on the line in an impossible situation. Of course, we still run into the exact same problem when it comes to what defines "hiding," etc.

Kal's argument is that SINCE the TO's subjective hand of justice isn't perfect and SINCE the TO's metaphorical shoulders are not broad enough to hold this entire responsibility, how about we the community take matters into our own hands with a "code of conduct" and try to discourage players from belittling the competitive spirit with some good, old-fashioned shame? Look at how well and how quickly it worked with M2K! Our TOs go out of their way to let us get together for some Melee, so why do you insist on thanking them by trying to put them through hell and back with every set?

Well I don't know about Kal, but your argument is much clearer. But yes, I agree it can put the TO in a tough situation, but the counterargument makes it seem that there's a slightly fishy instance in just about every set, and the TO is suspicious of nearly everything and needs to make some borderline decisions all the time. I'm just saying it will prevent these blatant mishaps that really ruin the tournament (those situations in which the TO is very lucky, as you mentioned), seeing as those are the worst types of situations.

Yeah a rule for hiding splitting is fine since it would accomplish the same thing really. Also paying the winners via paypal for big tournaments would probably make splitting more difficult although that's just an extra idea. But the splitting rule kind of goes alongside the sandbagging/forfeiting rule, so telling them to hide it is kinda weird, you know? Like "if you're going to throw your set or sandbag due to splitting or bracket manipulation, please hide it" when we should just try to discourage those practices in the first place, which goes alongside the idea of a code of conduct.

Oh and I'm not against a code of conduct. I think the community has responded to this event pretty clearly so we've essentially created just that which is definitely what we want. I just think these rules that may not be easily enforced help reiterate that code of conduct we have but create an out if things go REALLY bad.

 

[10th]

dude the VGbootcamp guys came up to me and asked me if i split, and i told them the truth, a yes. Should I have lied when i was asked that question?

Definitely not, I was saying you were in the right in all this

I meant that splitting itself shouldn't be so frowned upon, as, how others have said, it goes on very often in other gaming tournaments but people don't know about it because they do it in private.

EDIT: Jason, you should go to NEC (if you can) and give everybody more awesome matches!

 

[Mew2King]

No matter how I look at the situation, Mew2King comes out as the victim. You don't re-arrange brackets, if the rules don't explicitly say they will be seeded by location, then the TO has no obligation to do so. To then bend the bracket to do something not even in writing is ridiculous. That's entirely beside the point though.

The part that sucks about this is 99% of people who watched are going to think it's my fault because I'm the most well-known name and often a scapegoat (there are seriously so many ****ing rumors about me that are not true at all that it really makes me mad). I'm very guilty of the act of asking to split (although i had NO bad intentions with that but i realize the consequences of my actoins now), but I was trying to just play the ****ing game the rest of the time (and help make the bracket "better" although harder for me, upon the TO's request) until BS happened that ruined my mindset.

I still tried to win the tournament, but my mindset was still ****ed.

 

[Bones0]

Mew2King, you just need to come out hard at Apex. No splitting; pure determination. I know you can do it!

 

[t3chn0g0at]

Mew2King, you just need to come out hard at Apex. No splitting; pure determination. I know you can do it!

I agree completely. #TeamM2K

 

[Tarv]

Mew2King, you just need to come out hard at Apex. No splitting; pure determination. I know you can do it!

THIS. So much this. I REALLY want m2k to be a serious competitor for first place, I still think he has it in him... Also because he is king of marth mains and I may or may not be biased.

 

[Svetsunov]

Just an FYI, I'm the evil mastermind behind the split.

I orchestrated the whole thing.

And I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling kids!

You've been missed.

 

[Kal]

Well I don't know about Kal, but your argument is much clearer.

Ferrish pretty aptly summarized the point I was making.

 

[10th]

Mew2King, you just need to come out hard at Apex. No splitting; pure determination. I know you can do it!

#TeamM2K

You know we're all waiting for that rematch against PP after Zenith, can't wait

 

[JPOBS]

No matter how I look at the situation, Mew2King comes out as the victim. You don't re-arrange brackets, if the rules don't explicitly say they will be seeded by location, then the TO has no obligation to do so. To then bend the bracket to do something not even in writing is ridiculous. That's entirely beside the point though.

The rules don't explicitly state "under no circumstances will the TO change the bracket" either. By your logic, Alu was entirely in his right to change the bracket however the hell he wants.

If you're going to be some sort of moral absolutist, at least take a minute to fully understand the implications of the principle you're touting.

 

[KrazyKnux]

Ferrish pretty aptly summarized the point I was making.

Ah I see. I kind of skipped around the thread a lot since it kinda blew up, so i might have missed some key points, my bad! But i hope you understand what i'm saying too! =D

 

[Kal]

Yeah, I agree with your point that the rule needs to be enforced, I just don't think it needs to be enforced by the TO. It should be enforced socially, because it's really a rule about social conduct (since there's nothing inherently "cheating" about splitting a pot or "bracket manipulation"). "Good old fashioned shame," as Ferrish put it.

 

[Jockmaster]

**** this #teammew2king ****

Mango would've had no part of this situation and hes gonna body everyone at Apex

****ing #mangonation

 

[Kal]

Also, I skipped over KrazyKnux's point about PayPal. This might be the apple juice talking, but it actually sounds like a really decent idea to pay out players via PayPal.

 

[MaNg0]

**** this #teammew2king ****

Mango would've had no part of this situation and hes gonna body everyone at Apex

****ing #mangonation

i like this guy