ROM 5 - Mew2King vs Unknown522

[Froggy]

if i knew it would truely do this much bad, trust me i would not have asked to split. I tried to explain as much as possible in this thread within my posts so people could understand everything better at least on my thought processes

People are over reacting M2k. If you want to split in the future fine, but don't make it so obvious. The reason that the hate is directed at you instead of Unknown as it should be is because you do a lot of similar **** that people don't like. In this case it really isn't your fault, don't feel bad if people insist on complaining about you on this.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

m2k is just getting hate cuz he's still responding. unknown should've just played his **** from the winners semis set and none of this would really be an issue.

 

[prog]

Hey, I'm going to say it again.

Don't dwell on what happened, stop pointing fingers. Multiple people can be blamed, we can go way back in the community, to other games, etc. We have to move forward in order to survive.

 

[LivewiresXe]

Hey, I'm going to say it again.

Don't dwell on what happened, stop pointing fingers. Multiple people can be blamed, we can go way back in the community, to other games, etc. We have to move forward in order to survive.

I'm just going to say I respect that video you did on Youtube and the intent behind it seemed genuine. It kinda reminded me of a plea I made to the Airdashers community over on SRK.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Just an FYI, I'm the evil mastermind behind the split.

I orchestrated the whole thing.

And I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling kids!

 

[Deleted member]

Just an FYI, I'm the evil mastermind behind the split.

I orchestrated the whole thing.

And I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling kids!

we both know you succumbed to cactuar's secret mind harness device.

 

[Alukard]

I have a lot of stories about M2K, ......................

i agree with velocity's post ... please guys lets just learn from this ... once i saw the predicament i was in .... there was no right way to fix things ... I had the hardest time putting this tournament together with hurricane sandy ****ing up my plans ... I also just got basically granted some leeway to fix up the venue in anyway i want ! ... so please i have tons of things planned for this community ... i really just want everyone to enjoy themselves and try their best!!

Hey, I'm going to say it again.

Don't dwell on what happened, stop pointing fingers. Multiple people can be blamed, we can go way back in the community, to other games, etc. We have to move forward in order to survive.

THIS!!!!!

Just an FYI, I'm the evil mastermind behind the split.

I orchestrated the whole thing.

And I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling kids!

>______________> ... too soon

 

[C.SDK]

Just an FYI, I'm the evil mastermind behind the split.

I orchestrated the whole thing.

And I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling kids!

Tell it to the judge.

 

[Fortune]

Alukard, will ROM 6 be a year from now? Or will it be sooner?

 

[KrazyKnux]

Any rule is "enforceable" if you leave it up to the subjective discretion of the TO, but we obviously have a stricter definition than that. We expect there to be some consensus, or at least for the TO to be able to reasonably argue his case.

It's an unenforceable rule because it's basically impossible to find out people split if they care at all about hiding it. It won't "get rid of everything that's bad about splitting;" it will do nothing. The overwhelming majority (if not actually 100%) of cases involving splitting will still occur. Those who would have split when the rule is undeclared will still split, and simply come up with a way to hide it. I seriously doubt that anyone who's willing to split a pot is going to change his mind just because there's a rule that says it's not allowed, especially when it's basically impossible to get caught if you're not an idiot.

And seriously, you think it's fair for the TO to start dishing out disqualifications because of the character a person chose to play?

Yeah, so the rules would be enforced when the TO could argue his case which is exactly when we want them enforced. If two players decide to split without making a fuss and play the tournament set as if they weren't splitting, then that's OK. I'm not saying a rule against splitting will stop the act itself - of course it won't. Like you said, the majority will still split (although certainly not 100%). But it WILL deter everything that's bad about splitting - and that's sandbagging/throwing matches/forfeiting, etc...

And why would it not be fair for a TO to DQ players for sandbagging? That's bracket manipulation and should most definitely be against the rules. It seems that you're assuming that a TO implementing this rule is some megalomaniac who is going to DQ people left and right. I'm not saying every instance of someone not trying 100% should be DQ'ed, but in those extreme cases where someone is purposely not trying (due to splitting, for example), or trying to lose in order to fix the bracket, etc., the rules can and should be enforced.

In particular, this statement is where your argument is flawed:

It's an unenforceable rule because it's basically impossible to find out people split if they care at all about hiding it. It won't "get rid of everything that's bad about splitting;" it will do nothing.

We want them to care about hiding it. It will prevent situations like this. And THAT's what a rule like this would do. What's bad about splitting is not that they choose to use their money however they want, it's that they don't take the competition seriously.

I just want what's best for the community imo.

 

[ph00tbag]

I'm not certain why splitting should be seen as a bad thing... if anything the behavior of players who no longer plan on trying to win is what everyone gets upset about, and splitting is just a convenient scapegoat for that kind of behavior, but not truly a root cause.

I think the reason splitting becomes a target is that it's a pretty clear-cut symptom of disregard for competitive spirit. You can accuse a player of underperforming intentionally, but that's typically difficult to prove (although fielding a non-viable character in a match purported to be of the highest stakes is a good way to show you have no respect for those stakes).

Splitting isn't inherently wrong, though, I agree. It's when a player who's splitting allows that to minimize the desire to actually win that I, personally find abhorrent. And I'm not talking about pretending to care. I'm talking about actually caring. It's unfortunate that there's no way to make people care. But when people certainly don't look like they care, I think there ought to be consequences for that, in the name of the people that do care. And I'm not just talking about the audience. I'm talking about the participants who tried really damn hard, only to see the people that beat them **** all over that hard work.

Just an FYI, I'm the evil mastermind behind the split.

I orchestrated the whole thing.

And I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling kids!

Can you imagine peeling back M2K's face to see KirbyKaze underneath?

There's a horrific thought.

 

[ANTi_]

If you're gonna split you should play seriously (use your mains) for WF's/GF's/LF's and give your 100% effort for the viewers and once all of that is said and done, THEN you should split the cash between you & your friends on your own time and in privacy.

Otherwise **** like this happens and ****s everything up lol, I hope this doesn't get brought up on the EVO page.

But some of you are too scared to use your main and lose since it takes away from the win that you got if you two played earlier in bracket.

Seems like Unknown didn't wanna lose the legitness of his 3-2 win in semis over M2K using his main so he decided to go secondary characters in GF's so his Fox still seems godlike for beating M2K earlier.

PSYCHOLOGY.

-Here's my once a month post-

 

[FerrishTheFish]

It seems that you're assuming that a TO implementing this rule is some megalomaniac who is going to DQ people left and right.

No. What Kal is saying is that when a TO is forced to uphold an unenforceable rule, then you are creating a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't situation for them.

Unless you are very lucky, you can't prove there is a splitting agreement. You're saying that the TO should just bite the bullet and DQ if he thinks something is fishy, but you're overlooking that the uncertainty goes both ways: Unless you are very lucky, you can't prove there ISN'T a splitting agreement. Thus, the TO's decision to NOT DQ someone is biting the bullet just as hard. No matter what the TO does, there will be people who disagree (since there's no proof), and when that happens, the TO will be unable to defend himself (since there's no proof) and stands to lose his rep and hurt future tourneys even if his hunch is right (since there's no proof).

We want them to care about hiding it. It will prevent situations like this. And THAT's what a rule like this would do. What's bad about splitting is not that they choose to use their money however they want, it's that they don't take the competition seriously.

If you want the players to hide splitting agreements, you should make a rule stating that players must hide splitting agreements, not a rule stating that TOs have to put their own necks on the line in an impossible situation. Of course, we still run into the exact same problem when it comes to what defines "hiding," etc.

Kal's argument is that SINCE the TO's subjective hand of justice isn't perfect and SINCE the TO's metaphorical shoulders are not broad enough to hold this entire responsibility, how about we the community take matters into our own hands with a "code of conduct" and try to discourage players from belittling the competitive spirit with some good, old-fashioned shame? Look at how well and how quickly it worked with M2K! Our TOs go out of their way to let us get together for some Melee, so why do you insist on thanking them by trying to put them through hell and back with every set?

 

[AXE 09]

Soooooooooo after watching the last ~2 hours of the stream, and reading through pretty much all of the ROM5 thread, I must say that I am very disappointed.

Pikachu is not happy.

I haven't read any of this thread yet, so I haven't seen what KK/Unknown/M2K had to say before I'm posting this.

Just so everyone knows, most of the top players aren't like this. I know that especially PP, Armada, and Hbox are very passionate about the game and would never let something like this happen. Same with Mango (at least at the moment. I don't think he cared for quite a while but he's definitely shown passion again within the past ~half year).

I am also very passionate about this game, as well as most other top players.

I just have to say that I'm very glad I got to experience both FC and Kings of Cali, and didn't experience something like this. I hope everyone tries to remember Kings of Cali instead of ROM. KoC was amazing.

In defense of KK/Unknown/M2K, I don't think they thought about the consequences of their actions regarding the stream. It probably didn't sink in to them that such important people were watching the stream, and their actions could determine the future of Melee. Sad to say though, the consequences were huge. And that still isn't any excuse for what happened.

I think Unknown/M2K had much more to do with this than KK, although KK did pretty much throw his match to Unknown making a disappointing Winner's Finals. This looked really bad on stream.




I just want to tell everyone that I'm going to practice really really hard so I can make it to the top, so that things like this won't happen. I want to win, I want everyone to be entertained, and I want Melee to finally be respected by other communities.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I just want to tell everyone that I'm going to practice really really hard so I can make it to the top, so that things like this won't happen. I want to win, I want everyone to be entertained, and I want Melee to finally be respected by other communities.

You can do it! We believe in you!

 

[Kal]

Good, old-fashioned shame, son.

Also, lol that Axe wants to win tournaments to prevent splitting. You're such a good guy, Axe!

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

There should be a rule saying that once a game is started on a map, with neither player protesting in due time, it is legit.
That's what "stage agree" is for. If Unknown lets himself be talked into because he doesn't know the rules it is his problem. If he had reasonable doubt he shouldn't have let the game be started.

It's not to much to ask to read through the tournament rules if you plan on winning it. Your bad luck if you let someone mislead you.


In no way is that post supposed to be a defense for anyone. M2k is just as much at fault for not checking the rules as Unknown is. Alukard should've chosen the right rules, sticking to them isn't a thing to be condemned for though.


A Universal Ruleset is a must

 

[Beat!]

Axe for smash president.

 

[Kal]

I think PC Chris already is president. Though my smash history is vague/I'm hung over.

 

[Beat!]

Well, we're way overdue for a new election, then.

 

[Xyzz]

I don't care if Mango cares. The times he (supposedly) doesn't care about winning, he still cares about delivering entertaining matches, which he for now achieved without fail :D <3

also: <3 Axe. Perfect way to prevent splitting is to just be in the position to say "no" to the proposing player :D

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Here's our second chance:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=328645

 

[Silent Wolf]

people are trippin.

 

[Tugnus]

lol. I don't understand some of the opinions in this thread. How can anyone blame M2K for "cheating". M2K could have been purposefully lying out of his *** about the rules and he should still be fine. Regardless of who knew what or said what, it is the responsibility of a player to be aware of the rules before the match.

Why is it M2K's fault for Unknown believing him when he told him it was mDSR? Seriously does anyone watch sports? Sport competitions are a great comparison. While gaming might not be a sport (another discussion), sports have obviously been running competitions and dealing with rule violations for thousands of years. A majority of sports don't actually require the players to know the rules, it is just beneficial to the players to know them.

Let's use tennis as an example. Match point. You hit a shot out, but I don't call it out and I lose the match. The referee misses the shot and can not make a call. I'm not sure if it was good or not, but still refuse to get the referee's attention and challenge the call. If I then watch the replay on TV a couple minutes after the match ends, can I call up the tournament and demand to replay the last point. LOL

In any competition, the match would never get replayed after being concluded. HELL. In the god damn olympics women's fencing semi finals, there was a clear technical error in the clock. Google the incident. Basically Girl A was ahead by 1 point with 2 seconds left. Girl B must score within 2 seconds to win. Match starts, clock freezes, girl B gets the point 3-4 seconds later. Replay is shown and she clearly does not make the play clock. GUESS WHO THE OLYMPICS AWARDED THE WIN TO...GIRL B! Not saying this is fair, but this just shows how often competitions try to avoid replays because of how stupid they are.

4 paragraphs later and the thing that still bothers me the most is how people use M2K's WORDS as a form of cheating in the competition. Are people crazy? Since when did mind games become new? Who cares if it was on purpose or not. M2K could have been babbling nonsense. The only person who could cause a replay by stating wrong rules is the TO himself. The statement "Everyone is responsible for knowing the rules" refers to the LOSER, not the winner. It's as if people think unknown was forced to play against M2K on FD after he told him what he thought the ruleset was. Do people know how to NOT ****ING PLAY? If you aren't sure...don't ****ing do it. So simple. Clarify before instead of after. Reminds me of the real estate crash =/. Is the house free? I don't know, but I'll still buy it...Oh noes I'm ****ed now...I wantz replay.

 

[Kal]

We can't expect people to take personal responsibility for things, Tugnus. That's unreasonable.

 

[Zankoku]

Whether people feel the finals would've played out similarly in terms of placements and whether it would have been close had no splitting taken place is irrelevant. Aside from it being principle, we can't make claims such as that due to the simple face we don't (and won't) know.

What principle is there? What are you trying to prevent, people from ruining the finals of a tournament, or the act of splitting prize money the players have already reached a stage in the tournament to earn? While you can make speculative connections between one and the other, removing one will not eliminate the other by any means.

 

[KrIsP!]

We took away a win from Lance.

But that's besides the point.

 

[poega]

It's not on the players that splitting occurred, it's extremely easy to simply state in the rules that no splitting is allowed and if the *******s are caught, the money goes to cancer research or some ****. Should definitely be a staple rule.

 

[LivewiresXe]

What principle is there? What are you trying to prevent, people from ruining the finals of a tournament, or the act of splitting prize money the players have already reached a stage in the tournament to earn? While you can make speculative connections between one and the other, removing one will not eliminate the other by any means.

The principle of not ruining a tournament. Seriously, you should be there because you want to win, to test your abilities, and to support and show pride in the game community you're a part of. If splitting the pot to try and "ensure you get travel money home" or "because you feel obligated to do so" once you get there is your main focus, then wtf are you doing there. What you're doing at that point is essentially saying "well, that's good enough for me, to hell with everyone else, now let's just call it a day instead of actually seeing who's the best". I'm sorry, but the FGC is supposed to be a competitive community, and being competitive myself, I cannot fathom the idea of just deciding "well, I've done enough, time to split the money and leave it". It's frowned upon by the FGC for a reason and doing it does nothing positive at all and does nothing to portray the Melee or Smash scene as a whole in anything but a negative light.

They want to throw their games and forfeit or stop playing? Then screw 'em and have Grand Finals be between the people in 4th and 5th if the Top 3 won't play it out legit. Granted in no way can I force people to do something about stuff that's ridiculous like this, but if they don't then the joke's going to just continue being on them, and if they don't respect themselves enough to stand up against getting walked all over, then what does that say to everyone else?

 

[Construct]

Here's our second chance:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=328645

QFT. Instead of just arguing, why don't we actually go do something?

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

something i've been wondering that I haven't seen brought up yet:

was the bracket really seeded that badly with unknown and kk on opposite sides of the same half? going into it I would have ranked m2k as 1 for seeding, then I would have thought kk and unknown were the next best players there. So wouldn't it make sense to put them on the opposite side as m2k? by switching the bracket m2k definitely had a harder time and I think unknown did too. yes unknown and kk are from the same region but if they both make it very far into the bracket isn't there a very good chance that they're going to have to play each other in loser's anyways?

I'm curious what better TO's then me think about this. I have a feeling someone will convince me that I'm wrong.

also, i guess a case could be made for hax being on the unknown/ kk level then the issue become easier..

 

[Nintendude]

I concur that the top-4 seeds of the tournament were correct. KK vs. unknown in semis should have actually happened. The only unfortunate part is that both Weon-X and Europhoria were also in the same side of the bracket.

 

[Zankoku]

The principle of not ruining a tournament. Seriously, you should be there because you want to win, to test your abilities, and to support and show pride in the game community you're a part of. If splitting the pot to try and "ensure you get travel money home" or "because you feel obligated to do so" once you get there is your main focus, then wtf are you doing there. What you're doing at that point is essentially saying "well, that's good enough for me, to hell with everyone else, now let's just call it a day instead of actually seeing who's the best". I'm sorry, but the FGC is supposed to be a competitive community, and being competitive myself, I cannot fathom the idea of just deciding "well, I've done enough, time to split the money and leave it". It's frowned upon by the FGC for a reason and doing it does nothing positive at all and does nothing to portray the Melee or Smash scene as a whole in anything but a negative light.

They want to throw their games and forfeit or stop playing? Then screw 'em and have Grand Finals be between the people in 4th and 5th if the Top 3 won't play it out legit. Granted in no way can I force people to do something about stuff that's ridiculous like this, but if they don't then the joke's going to just continue being on them, and if they don't respect themselves enough to stand up against getting walked all over, then what does that say to everyone else?

In the first paragraph you talk about how splitting is really bad, because... what? Only the victor should have the spoils? In the second paragraph you complain about people forfeiting, throwing games, etc. Which one actually ruins tournaments? If you claim both, then what part of the winner giving some of his winnings to second place actually lowers a tournament's quality? Does similar happen when both players involved are planning to just give the majority of their prize money to charity, or parents, or whatever?

This tournament was ruined with a whole bunch of other issues. Splitting really isn't the main problem here, yet almost all the talk is centering on that because it was the last thing to happen.

 

[Divinokage]

Soooooooooo after watching the last ~2 hours of the stream, and reading through pretty much all of the ROM5 thread, I must say that I am very disappointed.

Pikachu is not happy.

I haven't read any of this thread yet, so I haven't seen what KK/Unknown/M2K had to say before I'm posting this.

Just so everyone knows, most of the top players aren't like this. I know that especially PP, Armada, and Hbox are very passionate about the game and would never let something like this happen. Same with Mango (at least at the moment. I don't think he cared for quite a while but he's definitely shown passion again within the past ~half year).

I am also very passionate about this game, as well as most other top players.

I just have to say that I'm very glad I got to experience both FC and Kings of Cali, and didn't experience something like this. I hope everyone tries to remember Kings of Cali instead of ROM. KoC was amazing.

In defense of KK/Unknown/M2K, I don't think they thought about the consequences of their actions regarding the stream. It probably didn't sink in to them that such important people were watching the stream, and their actions could determine the future of Melee. Sad to say though, the consequences were huge. And that still isn't any excuse for what happened.

I think Unknown/M2K had much more to do with this than KK, although KK did pretty much throw his match to Unknown making a disappointing Winner's Finals. This looked really bad on stream.




I just want to tell everyone that I'm going to practice really really hard so I can make it to the top, so that things like this won't happen. I want to win, I want everyone to be entertained, and I want Melee to finally be respected by other communities.

You are not alone that feels like this, the pathetic spirit I have seen makes me sick to my stomach.

 

[The Business]

Let's use tennis as an example. Match point. You hit a shot out, but I don't call it out and I lose the match. The referee misses the shot and can not make a call. I'm not sure if it was good or not, but still refuse to get the referee's attention and challenge the call. If I then watch the replay on TV a couple minutes after the match ends, can I call up the tournament and demand to replay the last point. LOL

If you're going to compare 2 things you should make sure that they have anything to do with each other before you start.

A judgement call like the tennis shot being out or in is so completely different from a confusion on the rules that you're analogy is literally pointless. If you're going to compare apples to something at least compare them to another ****ing fruit.

 

[Habefiet]

You are not alone that feels like this, the pathetic spirit I have seen makes me sick to my stomach.

Can you two just team at like everything ever

Please

The world needs your combined powers

 

[pelotaz0]

So m2k broke the rules and lost consequently but was the fault of the organizers and his ruleset.
k man
LOL No.

 

[Battlecow]

I like most of what I'm seeing here, but a surprising number of people (I think a minority... I hope, at least) seem to be OK with splitting as long as it's kept secret. I'm really, really, really against that. I've never been offered a split for more than a hundred-odd bucks (and I probably never will be), but I can tell you that if I was I'd turn it down. Even if I was going to lose the match.

I know the idea seems attractive. You can play your finals without any of the stress and bother that goes along with the silly money issues. You don't have to kill yourself over every decision. Hell, you might even play better without the added pressure.

But that is really, fundamentally, NOT what it's about. Tournaments are competitive, and the parts that you're trying to avoid--the stress, the pressure, the potential for monetary loss, and all of the other synonyms for hype--are what you're there for.

Even if it's not, even if you're in a real casual mindset that day, it's what the spectators are looking for. And regardless of what umbreon says (I'd like to take this opportunity to share with you an opinion near to my heart, namely, that Umbreon is what happens when rectal polyps gain sentience) you do have an obligation to the guys driving out there and throwing twenty bucks in the pot so that they can be there in person when the legendary matches go down.

 

[iRobinhoood]

 

[cannedbread]

not really

from what i've seen/heard, this entire hooplah is a big reminder that melee needs a strongly enforced standardized universal ruleset