ROM 5 - Mew2King vs Unknown522

[Kal]

Kal I don't agree that a code of conduct would serve the same purpose. People probably won't split openly for a while in the wake of this whole incident, but I don't think "please don't do this" is a good long-term solution. At least if there's some negative consequence to being caught splitting people will try a bit harder to not get caught, since they would suffer more than a PR hit if they do. And I don't agree with the notion that regulating tournament conduct this is "douchebaggery". If we want to be taken seriously (we do, right?), basic steps should be taken to aid the integrity, or at the very least perceived integrity, of tournaments.

It's not "please don't do this." The community should heavily stigmatize the issue. With that sort of heavy negative stigma, people will just as much try not to get caught. In fact, the "PR hit" they suffer has nothing to do with the rule, and everything to do with community opinion. If nobody cared that M2K split, but the rules banned it, there would be very little to no negative PR as a result. It's got everything to do with how the community views it.

I don't think all regulations constitute douchebaggery, but I think creating a contrived, bull **** rule whose only justification is "it takes away from the competitive spirit" and "it makes us look bad" would constitute douchebaggery. At least, it would be as douchebaggy as creating a rule that said "players must respect their opponents" or "players must show good sportsmanship." Those are social issues, and they should be discrete from tournament rules, in my opinion.

 

[Zankoku]

Well, yes it is. People try hard in $10 money matches. Why wouldn't people try hard when the amount of money on the line is much, much higher?

If players split, it inherently takes away that motivation. Sure, there's still the drive to be the best, but just look at the last few sets from ROM 5. Are you saying that everyone would have played like that even if money was a factor?

If you win in a $10 money match, you win $10. If you lose in a $10 money match, you lose $10. The end result of losing here is actually going down in funds from what you started with.

If you win in grand finals, you win, say, $500. If you lose in grand finals, you still win $250.

So, yes, unless someone explicitly needed the additional cash to pay for some unforeseen expense, sandbagging his way to second place would still leave him positive in earnings and if he decided it wasn't worth the extra effort then the ability to split would not have that major of an effect on his willingness to play.

 

[Bad Cupboard]

I find it hard to imagine that anyone would think it's not worth playing as hard as they can for an extra $250.
For 1 set, at that.

 

[Zankoku]

If you can regularly win locals for $200, why spend five times the effort to win merely twice as much at a major? The only people I can think of who'd have that sort of motivation are ones who don't care about money to begin with and ones who don't have any other source of income.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Because there's no way do anything that makes players want to play to win more without giving them a reason to, and splitting is something that players can use to alleviate the only definite source of pressure on them to try. I do wish everyone could find motivation to try all the time, but if they choose not to I don't think they should be able to split. If you don't want to try that's honestly fine with me and not something anyone can really do anything about, but if you lose because of it you should have to at least take the monetary hit because you chose not to compete.

@Kal I don't agree that a code of conduct would serve the same purpose. People probably won't split openly for a while in the wake of this whole incident, but I don't think "please don't do this" is a good long-term solution. At least if there's some negative consequence to being caught splitting people will try a bit harder to not get caught, since they would suffer more than a PR hit if they do. And I don't agree with the notion that regulating tournament conduct this is "douchebaggery". If we want to be taken seriously (we do, right?), basic steps should be taken to aid the integrity, or at the very least perceived integrity, of tournaments.

What we actually need to consider is what the likely outcome of implementing a rule is. How effectively we can enforce a rule is merely an indicator of that (albeit a generally pretty good one), not the be-all end-all of the discussion.

We don't stand to lose hardly anything by implementing policies that warn against collusion and sandbagging, even if they aren't very enforceable. They still contribute to the awareness of the players and reminds them that this is something the community frowns upon even if it's something they can get away with. And some people will respond to that. Not everyone, but some, and that's better than nothing. The perfect is the enemy of the good.

 

[Ripple]

next time I'm offered to split, I'm going to say yes, win the set, then not give them any money.

I'm smarter than them so I deserve the money right?

 

[Bad Cupboard]

If you can regularly win locals for $200, why spend five times the effort to win merely twice as much at a major? The only people I can think of who'd have that sort of motivation are ones who don't care about money to begin with and ones who don't have any other source of income.

Playing hard for one set for an extra $250 seems worth it to me, even if you win loads of money in locals.

 

[bertbusdriver]

next time I'm offered to split, I'm going to say yes, win the set, then not give them any money.

I'm smarter than them so I deserve the money right?

You're never gonna be in that position until you bring back that DK blake.

 

[Warhawk]

Be that as it may, the bracket would have never changed if M2K didn't ask for it to. That's evidently fact, which therefore puts him at LEAST 50/50 fault for it. Yes, people will say not to blame him for it, but if he's not at fault at all for that why would he SAY he did it?

What? I could have sworn someone organizing the tournament asked M2K if he would be ok if they switched his opponent since they didn't seed it properly, M2K just asked for the split pot. And you can say that "well he still agreed to it so he's partly at fault" but if you were in his shoes would you wanna be the guy made out to be the *** who said no when everyone else agreed to and wanted the bracket switched? I disagree with some of M2K's actions here, but if what was said earlier in this thread is true this isn't one of them.

And as ****ty as it is once players pay their entrance fee they must adhere to the rules of the tournament and nothing else. They don't have to play to entertain and make a good show for the stream, they can do what they want. It sucks, but they can choose how they spend their entry fee as long as its within the rules of the tournament. If TO's want to prevent this from happening put a splitting/sandbagging clause in the rules beforehand that gives the TO the power and discretion to disqualify players suspected of these actions. While this creates a potential for an abuse of power by a TO I don't think a TO would risk their reputation by doing something completely out of line with it, since smashboards in the instance of such abuses could just refuse to allow threads to support and advertise for any more of that TO's tournaments.

Kinda wish Kirbykaze would have just destroyed Unknown and then the situation would have been averted since KK wasn't going to split and so between M2K and Unknown one of them would have to play to beat KK if they wanted the winnings. As it is I understand with how down Unknown seemed why KK wouldn't want to knock him out of the tournament though. In all honesty though its probably best that this happened so that we can prevent it in the future.

 

[Zankoku]

Playing hard for one set for an extra $250 seems worth it to me, even if you win loads of money in locals.

If that were the case then why would unknown take a 3-way split? The gains from losing here instead of losing without a split would have been 5% ($0.50 per entrant at the tournament, or $64 if there were 128 players). Taking numbers with this example, the difference would be
1st/2nd/3rd - $384
as opposed to
1st - $640
2nd - $320
3rd - $192
There certainly would be good reason for KirbyKaze to accept the split as he was in losers' finals, but as far as I'm aware his set against M2K at least looked real.

The extra incentive at this point for second place seems more like a bonus than a reason to quit trying.

 

[CanISmash]

going forward we saw the problems its now in the hands of the t.os to make sure this doesn't happen again.

theres need to be a limit, i'd say no more than 30 seconds to warmup. you play tourney matches all day.. you're warmed up. I use to have to warm up in game its not that big of a deal, play your hardest and get you tech skill on in between stocks like everyone normally does.

theres gotta be a time limit in between matches. maybe 90 seconds maximum. so you can't kill momentum and ruin player by simply not playing your match.

finally some harsh punishments for not recording matches , splitting, showing up late. Trust me all it would've taken was m2k or any other top player to show up to a national they cared about and get dq'ed once for being late and i guarantee they would never ever do it again.

based on his posts m2k seems to want to correct his errors... (minus the warming up for 4 minutes thats a joke) so we'll see how apex turns out. apex is gonna be mango hbox finals anyway so there will be no splitting. armada in 3rd :D

 

[LivewiresXe]

If you can regularly win locals for $200, why spend five times the effort to win merely twice as much at a major? The only people I can think of who'd have that sort of motivation are ones who don't care about money to begin with and ones who don't have any other source of income.

To be honest Aisight, that you're even trying to justify this to begin with kinda gets me all kinds of disappointed and surprised.

 

[Zankoku]

Justify what? Splitting? It happens, and to be honest based on what I know of what transpired at RoM I am very much under the belief that the finals would've played out very similarly whether splitting was agreed to or not. Maybe instead of Mew2King winning, he would've been the one to play around with alts and get the silver, but I seriously doubt match quality would've gone up.

 

[Atlus8]

Straight out of the EVO organizer himself! (Not sure if he was referring to this whole thing though!)

https://twitter.com/MrWizardSRK/status/270636578827816960

 

[Mew2King]

Just pointing out that M2K himself said that he asked for the bracket to be changed/manipulated. So yes, that part IS his fault, if nothing else.

Are you stupid? ALUKARD came up to me and asked me if I was okay with fighting unknown instead of eggm, cuz the canadian's didn't want to fight each other. I WILLINGLY DISADVANTAGED MYSELF BY GIVING MYSELF A HARDER OPPONENT SO THAT THE OTHER PEOPLE WOULD BE HAPPY upon HIS (alukard's, and maybe alukard+the canadian's or whoever requested it originally) request!!!! -_-

 

[King Funk]

Straight out of the EVO organizer himself! (Not sure if he was referring to this whole thing though!)

https://twitter.com/MrWizardSRK/status/270636578827816960

Get Your Tournament started a huge discussion on twitter about pot splitting because of the RoM5 debacle. That's what happens when we **** up live on the front page of twitch.tv.

 

[Mew2King]

Be that as it may, the bracket would have never changed if M2K didn't ask for it to.

Read my post above, I didn't even wanna do it, but I let alukard switch us anyway cuz I DID NOT WANT TO BE SELFISH

YES, I was trying to SATISFY THE OTHER PEOPLE with my own sacrifice

-I ALLOWED a disadvantage on myself upon HIS request to me because I'm too nice
-I was going to let hax go onto the rest of the tourney and just give him the win to be nice, but he declined and said he'd rather play me
-I gave hax a 3/5 set after I 2-0d him, because I'm nice
-and I was going to split REGARDLESS because I'm nice (no matter what the situation was, because I've been doing that for years, even if I was waiting in the GF I would have done it. Jman can back me up on this as I've done this for him many times in the past). I understand that in THIS situation, I was wrong. I apologize for that part, but the other parts are not fair.

 

[KrIsP!]

Get Your Tournament started a huge discussion on twitter about pot splitting because of the RoM5 debacle. That's what happens when we **** up live on the front page of twitch.tv.

No one gives a **** about us until we do something wrong? It wasn't even about the splitting, I'm not even mad about splitting, I didn't even happen (or did it?). It was just kind of a meh GFs with a bunch of small issues on more than one person's shoulders that led to low motivation.

Edit: what did they do? just the tweets or something longer and written out?

 

[commonyoshi]

This is 99% Unknown's fault. He pooped on the face of the melee community in front of thousands. Never cheering for this guy ever again.

 

[Mew2King]

Also I do agree that the FGC and big corporations don't support smash cuz they know smash isn't taken as seriously by nintendo and lots of people like to make fun of it or have an "excuse" to not. If Nintendo said smash was competitive it would probably be a lot different, but melee is old and sakurai tried to make smash non-competitive and nintendo not only doesn't support it competitively but the sales of the game is for the casual market. MLG won't have it because they lose money from it because they aren't legally allowed to have a stream for it, and evo wants an excuse to not have it over a different game.

But I also understand that a lot of this is my fault (not for this tourney but for the FGC, them having an excuse) entirely cuz of asking people to split. That won't happen again.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Clearly these things never happen in the FGC

 

[oukd]

you better keep to your word jason.

No one gives a **** about us until we do something wrong? It wasn't even about the splitting, I'm not even mad about splitting, I didn't even happen (or did it?). It was just kind of a meh GFs with a bunch of small issues on more than one person's shoulders that led to low motivation.

Edit: what did they do? just the tweets or something longer and written out?

see for yourself https://twitter.com/gyt
it's like an actual discussion on pot splitting with some pretty solid stuff

your first mistake was in assuming the fgc would be interested in discussing melee looolloloolol

jokes aside, their discussion is pretty much in line with this thread

 

[Ripple]

linking to something that happened a year a half ago, and not something more recent, doesn't help that much considering M2K says he does this at EVERY event he goes to

 

[Pink Reaper]

I could link to more recent stuff but this one stands out because literally everyone knows who Justin Wong is. It'd be a lot harder to show off like, Chris G and Marlin Pie and expect people to realize it's actually happening.

 

[Mew2King]

if i knew it would truely do this much bad, trust me i would not have asked to split. I tried to explain as much as possible in this thread within my posts so people could understand everything better at least on my thought processes

 

[KrazyKnux]

How enforceable the rule is is always relevant. Creating enforceable rules like "grand finals must be played out" is fine. In order to ensure "that the players pretend to have serious matches," there must be something stopping players from not taking their matches seriously. When a rule is unenforceable, you can't ****ing enforce it.

Unenforceable rules also have the potential to lead to stupid ****; imagine if we had a "players can't sandbag" or "players can't manipulate the bracket" rule when, for example, a then-unknown KoreanDJ came out of nowhere and beat Caveman. What's stopping the TO from accusing Caveman of manipulating the bracket?

I don't think rules in this regard are a good idea. A code of conduct that's explicitly not enforceable is perfectly fine, and stigmatizing those who go against the code of conduct is not a bad idea. I think there's potential for a baseball analogy in here regarding no-hitters and bunting, but I don't know **** about baseball.

You could create a code of conduct and try to enforce it, but it seems more trouble than it's worth, and I feel it infringes on the individual rights of players. If I want to make it to grand finals and split, that's my prerogative, and the only thing that's stopping me is that I personally find it disrespectful. But I think it's a leap in logic for me to claim that this should be made a rule just because I personally dislike the practice.

This seems like an attempt at finding a pragmatic solution when one doesn't exist. Players who want to split will still split, even with a "no-splitsies" rule in place. And players who want to make a farce of their matches will still do so. All a player has to do is find a way to agree to a split without letting anyone else know, and if he wants to make a joke of his set, all he has to do is play a joke character.

So, even if we go out of our way to prevent this practice, people who want to engage in it still will. The only real solution is to start convincing people not to engage in it at all. As I said, I think a code of conduct is a good idea here.

What makes you think the rules aren't enforceable? If it's up to the TO's discretion, then a TO can very easily DQ a player who's playing a "joke" character because he's either sandbagging, splitting, or manipulating the bracket. Obviously the TO won't DQ people for borderline calls. So implementing these rules would get rid of everything that's bad about splitting and minimize the effect of bracket manipulation (which probably doesn't happen often, but there should certainly be a rule against it).

 

[ElloEddy]

the rules are stupid..i understand counter picking but let the person BAN a stage so **** like this dont happen..stupid stupid stupid ..they should have never replayed the set anyway ..

 

[Kal]

What makes you think the rules aren't enforceable? If it's up to the TO's discretion, then a TO can very easily DQ a player who's playing a "joke" character because he's either sandbagging, splitting, or manipulating the bracket. Obviously the TO won't DQ people for borderline calls. So implementing these rules would get rid of everything that's bad about splitting and minimize the effect of bracket manipulation (which probably doesn't happen often, but there should certainly be a rule against it).

Any rule is "enforceable" if you leave it up to the subjective discretion of the TO, but we obviously have a stricter definition than that. We expect there to be some consensus, or at least for the TO to be able to reasonably argue his case.

It's an unenforceable rule because it's basically impossible to find out people split if they care at all about hiding it. It won't "get rid of everything that's bad about splitting;" it will do nothing. The overwhelming majority (if not actually 100%) of cases involving splitting will still occur. Those who would have split when the rule is undeclared will still split, and simply come up with a way to hide it. I seriously doubt that anyone who's willing to split a pot is going to change his mind just because there's a rule that says it's not allowed, especially when it's basically impossible to get caught if you're not an idiot.

And seriously, you think it's fair for the TO to start dishing out disqualifications because of the character a person chose to play?

 

[Deleted member]

And seriously, you think it's fair for the TO to start dishing out disqualifications because of the character a person chose to play?

basically this. the TO discretion is a powerful tool to help handle corner cases that would otherwise fall under "best judgment". you can't just ban hungrybox for playing ness in the finals.

 

[Kal]

I should, as a rule of thumb, let Umbreon post for me.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Any rule is "enforceable" if you leave it up to the subjective discretion of the TO, but we obviously have a stricter definition than that. We expect there to be some consensus, or at least for the TO to be able to reasonably argue his case.

It's an unenforceable rule because it's basically impossible to find out people split if they care at all about hiding it. It won't "get rid of everything that's bad about splitting;" it will do nothing. The overwhelming majority (if not actually 100%) of cases involving splitting will still occur. Those who would have split when the rule is undeclared will still split, and simply come up with a way to hide it. I seriously doubt that anyone who's willing to split a pot is going to change his mind just because there's a rule that says it's not allowed, especially when it's basically impossible to get caught if you're not an idiot.

And seriously, you think it's fair for the TO to start dishing out disqualifications because of the character a person chose to play?

See my above post.

I disagree that it won't have any effect. It would really depend on how the rule is written. In my opinion, this should be a rule that is more of a statement about the kind of conduct we expect at the tournament, and it would be written only be applied in indisputable circumstances that damage the integrity of the tournament. Some people who might not have otherwise known that splitting is frowned upon will change their behavior for that fact alone, even if they could get away with it. Mew2King's posts seem to suggest that I'm correct about this.

 

[bertbusdriver]

Technically everything should be at the TO's discretion. They put their ***** on the line for usually no monetary benefit, and keep this community alive. If you don't like how a TO makes his decisions, you can choose not to attend his tournaments.

I can't see anyone abusing that power. (community backlash would destroy you as a TO for future events) But having that power explicitly stated as part of the tournament policy would deter something like the end of RoM 5 from occurring again.

 

[Kal]

See my above post.

I disagree that it won't have any effect. It would really depend on how the rule is written. In my opinion, this should be a rule that is more of a statement about the kind of conduct we expect at the tournament, and it would be written only be applied in indisputable circumstances that damage the integrity of the tournament. Some people who might not have otherwise known that splitting is frowned upon will change their behavior for that fact alone, even if they could get away with it. Mew2King's posts seem to suggest that I'm correct about this.

Well, I should have clarified: it will have no more effect than if we were to just heavily stigmatize the practice with a code of conduct. In both cases, the best we'll get is people who would have otherwise openly split will only do it in secret. The point I was making earlier is that a code of conduct would serve the same purpose as a rule without being overly intrusive or potentially harmful.

Technically everything should be at the TO's discretion. They put their ***** on the line for usually no monetary benefit, and keep this community alive. If you don't like how a TO makes his decisions, you can choose not to attend his tournaments.

I don't think anyone is saying that TOs don't have the right to use whatever rules they want, or that they don't deserve respect for what they do for the community. We're just discussing what's best for the community.

I can't see anyone abusing that power. (community backlash would destroy you as a TO for future events) But having that power explicitly stated as part of the tournament policy would deter something like the end of RoM 5 from occurring again.

While I agree that it's unlikely that anyone would intentionally abuse the power, there's some obvious problems that could arise. When a player uses Young Link against Jigglypuff, and the TO doesn't know that this is a standard counterpick, should he take action against the player? How does the TO reconcile the player's right to use whatever character he wants with the rule that a player must not "manipulate the bracket?"

And similarly, we have the example of a then-unknown KoreanDJ (a top-player of his time) coming out of nowhere and defeating Caveman (a very respected player) at a large tournament. Would it be fair for the TO to accuse Caveman of "bracket manipulation?"

It's problematic to try and enforce rules about player conduct, even when those rules are enforceable. It just gets worse when we're making up rules that are trivially easy to avoid getting caught breaking.

 

[Warhawk]

Get Your Tournament started a huge discussion on twitter about pot splitting because of the RoM5 debacle. That's what happens when we **** up live on the front page of twitch.tv.

Pot splitting isn't that uncommon in other fighting game communities so if they're picking apart pot splitting because of what they saw for melee on twitch tv they're just looking for justification at this point for why they won't add us, not refusing to add us because of what they saw.

 

[LivewiresXe]

Straight out of the EVO organizer himself! (Not sure if he was referring to this whole thing though!)

https://twitter.com/MrWizardSRK/status/270636578827816960

Mr. Wizard may from time to time be a lying sack of s--- himself (don't even get me started on some of the stuff from EVO 2011 and this year), but he does have a point with that.

Are you stupid? ALUKARD came up to me and asked me if I was okay with fighting unknown instead of eggm, cuz the canadian's didn't want to fight each other. I WILLINGLY DISADVANTAGED MYSELF BY GIVING MYSELF A HARDER OPPONENT SO THAT THE OTHER PEOPLE WOULD BE HAPPY upon HIS (alukard's, and maybe alukard+the canadian's or whoever requested it originally) request!!!! -_-

Uh huh. Change your stance and comment now so it sounds different from what you actually said to try and come out better. We both know what you're saying now doesn't add up with what you said before.

Justify what? Splitting? It happens, and to be honest based on what I know of what transpired at RoM I am very much under the belief that the finals would've played out very similarly whether splitting was agreed to or not. Maybe instead of Mew2King winning, he would've been the one to play around with alts and get the silver, but I seriously doubt match quality would've gone up.

Whether people feel the finals would've played out similarly in terms of placements and whether it would have been close had no splitting taken place is irrelevant. Aside from it being principle, we can't make claims such as that due to the simple face we don't (and won't) know.

 

[KrIsP!]

He's said that ten times, please don't encourage him to say it again. The facts are he was asked to switch finals opponent because all 4 canadian players were close in bracket so he agreed. Leave it at that.

 

[Mew2King]

dude i said the same thing multiple times, there is no stance changing

 

[AtotheZ]

congrats to unknown on the win

 

[LivewiresXe]

He's said that ten times, please don't encourage him to say it again. The facts are he was asked to switch finals opponent because all 4 canadian players were close in bracket so he agreed. Leave it at that.

I'll leave it, fine. But if it comes up again, don't expect me to say something different was said. Until then though, I'll drop it.

 

[Velocity]

I have a lot of stories about M2K, I live 15 mins from him and have known him since 2006. One time recently he was over my house, knowing him I make it clear what he is allowed to eat, and to not eat anything with out permission or I will murder him. I told him he could have some breakfast. I made it clear exactly what he could eat, included in that was one banana. I had two bananas. One was for me. half way through the second banana I asked "Why the **** are you eating my banana?" Jason replied "You said I could have one" I said "I said you could have one banana, you already ****ing ate one". He actually didn't know, not lied about, that he had already ate a banana. Yes, he's a ****ing idiot, I don't know how else to say it. The amount of times Cactuar and I have gone through this is countless. M2K always ruins things, he does so because he has no consideration AT ALL. If you think M2K is evil and has evil intentions then you don't know evil and you don't know M2K. Doesn't matter how many times I tell him something he doesn't listen, with that said don't let him borrow your controller, just say no. Seriously though... have rules, make them clear, if someone breaks them , punish them within reason and make the punishment clear before hand. Some tournaments start when the last good player gets there.

Looking over this thread most of the discussion is about the controversy than the actual issues and root causes. I believe Juggleguy and Boback made the best points outlining the problems that happened at this tournament by far which can be read here http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=15073046&postcount=324 and of course the first post.

On the topic of warm ups/button checks there are so many issues. Cactuar said it first followed by

Once again, it's not controller johns that call for a button check, it's just getting used to the tv. Not all tv's have the same colour, smoothness, size, brightness etc. etc.
Just taking 30 seconds to get used to it, as well as checking if you can still do your tech skill, shouldn't be a problem.

Now to add to this in comparison to other games players have more time to warm up and it has more importance, specially bracket matches. This is overlooked so much and is simply not taken into account in smash. The reason whether it be not enough tvs, sometimes its the players fault, or the tourney is constructed poorly and you simply just don't get the play time. This, I'm sure, has lead to matches played poorly by either player or worse different results. Players should know when they are about to play, they should be available to play if they aren't going to be available the TO should be aware of where they are and why they aren't. Then you have stand by TVS warm up before you play your matches, not only will you be ready to play you will be THERE and not somewhere else. This helps for streams too. Now for being TV specific and that min or two warming up right before the actual match or being on stream you shouldn't need that much time, but why even broadcast the warm up? Why not have the ****ing next set of players playing on a standby and when the one match is over boom have the next set of players get on and warm up. DURING THIS TIME have the commentators commentate! For instance, they could recap the previous match and start talking about the next match. We are lucky to have a lot of good commentators, this is feasible. Making 4000 people wait for 5 mins of button checks is bull****, it's not the players fault entirely. You can't blame players for wanting to be at their best and we should want them at their best also.

In regards to playing on stream with almost 4000 people watching: With great power comes great responsibility

About Evo: I think Prog says it best https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ayEcHWjYH_I

About splitting: Chibo made a thread basically saying about how this happens all the time, and now all of sudden people want to bring it up like its a new thing. You can't be the dad that let's the kid do something bad all the time and then when the mom comes into the room all of sudden punish the child. We need consistency.

My favorite post so far.

all i have to say is

battlefield only

Edit: It's obvious that every person involved from M2K to Unknown to Alukard are beating them selves up, we don't need to ridicule them. It's so easy to say what you would have done or what should have been done after the fact point. A lot of people worked hard, specially VGbootcamp and yet this happened, so lets learn from this.