Results of SRT

[Overswarm]

For me, it's as simple as looking at the players rather than the characters. The people who win big tournaments and are considered top players are there because they are amazing at the game, not because they play mk. There hasn't been ANYONE, ANYONE who has switched off their main and turned from a medicore player into a national threat. ANYONE. There is undeniable proof of the top mk mains being able to beat other top players with other characters and proving themselves to be the best not just from a character.

Mk is a hard character to pick up and just start doing well in tournament with. You don't see people pick up mk and start placing better than they used to generally. You see amazing players like Vinnie try to play mk and do much worse than his other characters despite the obvious time he's put in to learn the characters mechanics. You see top players occasionally switch off of mk to win a set, such as lee martin losing with mk against rain, and then beating him with lucario, or dojo 2-0ing mike haze with diddy, anti winning a recent mk banned tournament, tyrant switching to falco against m2k, there are plenty of examples of top players showing why they are top players: Skill, not character selection.

The fact that the same players are going to be the ones winning regardless of if mk is legal or not really says something. I can't believe someone would use this as a GOOD thing for banning mk, when all it is is not letting certain top players use their mains just because you don't like mk. Seriously, all you have to do is PLAY against these players and you know how good they are isn't because of mk.

The reality of it is mk is just a really fun and straightforward character to play. You don't have random players picking mk and doing well in tournaments they shouldn't, this doesn't happen anywhere. You yourself switched to mk OS to prove he's broken and have done absolutely nothing notable with him in the slightest. You show me that random player who has switched to metaknight and became a national threat when they weren't before. It just doesn't happen.

*reads post*

*looks at WHOBO results*

It's not the same people. It's not the same characters. What's more, the overlap that does exist is perfectly okay. No one says that player skill doesn't matter... but for you to say "you shouldn't ban Meta Knight because in some MK banned tournaments that same people still placed well" is kind of silly, considering the circumstances.

I practiced every day with ROB to win. I stopped with Meta Knight and still dominated my area and continued winning money even after other people started catching up. I met my goal, hated Meta Knight, and quit trying to do anything more. There's no reason to travel to best people in MK dittos.

 

[MegaRobMan]

Not big enough space for that.

What YOU should have done was say "eff Brawl MEGARMANS" and just come up and played megaman challenges

Luminoth64
Kel
Kassandranova
SneakyTako (who I wouldn't have known was such a big megaman fan without meeting him)
Josh (don't know his smashtag)

is a list of people who are enormous megaman fans that I hung out with at this event.

MK Rage.

btw I think people should just run whatever tournament they want, If someone wants to run an Apex type of event but with MK banned, do it, people will still come.

People boycotting stuff and protesting it only hurts the game, the scene and makes us look stupid to the Megaman community, which is what I care about most

 

[Hylian]

*reads post*

*looks at WHOBO results*

It's not the same people. It's not the same characters. What's more, the overlap that does exist is perfectly okay. No one says that player skill doesn't matter... but for you to say "you shouldn't ban Meta Knight because in some MK banned tournaments that same people still placed well" is kind of silly, considering the circumstances.

I practiced every day with ROB to win. I stopped with Meta Knight and still dominated my area and continued winning money even after other people started catching up. I met my goal, hated Meta Knight, and quit trying to do anything more. There's no reason to travel to best people in MK dittos.

It's not the same people? I'm looking at this results list and everyone who placed in the top 8 normally does well in tournaments and have won tournaments before(yes even with mk legal). Most national level players weren't even at this tournament to begin with, the top 3 was very easy to predict(in any order).

No reason to travel and best people in mk dittos? You have to be kidding yourself.

 

[sneakytako]

Well, I admittedly no longer live near your area, but Brawl is far from the "bad, dead, unchanging" game over here that you claim people are calling it. Also, unless there was a significant portion of slaves who enjoyed slavery and preferred it to freedom, your analogy is really only useful for attempting to paint the side opposing you in a completely negative light.

I have nothing against people who feel the game is more fun without Meta Knight, and nothing against people who prefer playing as or against Meta Knight. There's not really much of a national standard since opinion around here is fractured on just about everything except stuff like "don't crash the game". If Brawl is, objectively, more fun played in a certain way, I'm certain it would catch on quickly enough, anyway. If it is only found to be more fun for some section of the playerbase, then all you can do is hope your way eventually becomes a big enough majority; but denouncing the other way as strictly worse isn't exactly helpful.

Dude people in this thread have been saying that this game is dying. I'm not agreeing with them, but what I'm saying is if they don't like the game then maybe they should support a change.

My arguement has nothing to do with my opinion of the game. But I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of using Apex 2012 results to say we should keep MK, then ignoring that SRT was MK dominant.

I just chose to speak here because this is like a platonian example of how MK legal and MK banned stack up against each other. The issues of 'flat stages balances MK' or 'MK banned leads to similar dominant trends' can be disproven with this one example.

Also I can guarentee you a significant portion of slave owners loved slavery, and those are the people that could vote.

The people who play in MK legal tournaments who are indifferent to the issue are like farmers in the south who didn't own slaves but weren't abolitionists. They had to compete in a slave legal enviourment but was like 'w/e, I been had cotton gin'.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

It's not the same people? I'm looking at this results list and everyone who placed in the top 8 normally does well in tournaments and have won tournaments before(yes even with mk legal). Most national level players weren't even at this tournament to begin with, the top 3 was very easy to predict(in any order).

There's a disturbing lack of Razer for you to be making such a statement.

 

[MegaRobMan]

Oh, and OS, I won the melee tournament at that event, it's not like it was only brawl. I got $.

 

[Kel]

Most national level players weren't even at this tournament to begin with, the top 3 was very easy to predict(in any order).

Why didn't they go? Probably because they didn't feel confident without being able to use MK. You're saying that all the best players that use MK are just as good without MK, but they are not willing to travel to a national MK banned tournament. If they're as good as you say, it shouldn't matter if it's MK ban or not, they should just be able to go and pick up their check.

Regardless, no one is saying MK doesn't take skill. The idea is that eventually he's what everyone turns to and overcentralizes the game. Our entire rule set and tier list revolves around MK and the MK match up. 4 people out of 8 at this tournament used MK. A lot of MKs even took each other out due to the ditto! No one is saying MK players will be bad without MK (except Xyro), we are saying that MK is way over used and in every situation is the ultimate example. The only reason other players have switched off MK and found success is due to the other player having MU inexperience (IE Lee Martin going Lucario Vs Rain).

Also, I agree with you that MK can be a difficult character to pick up. This is because every single person in the world learns the MK MU first. It's the most important MU to know by far. Everyone tries to get as much experience vs MK as possible to stand a chance vs MK. Despite MK being the most practiced MU, he is STILL dominant enough to take 4/8 in a tournament stacked with the best ICs and Olimars in the world. When other characters have MUs that are studied to the extent of the MK MU, they don't do as well. For example, Snake was a really important MU to learn in 08 and 09. Everyone eventually did learn how to fight Snake and now he's no where near as dominant. People have been trying to learn the MK MU for 4 years now and the best people can hope for is that the MK doesn't know the MU that well.

 

[etecoon]

There's a disturbing lack of Razer for you to be making such a statement.

razer not so hot when he can't go MK for free wins, just another MK main stealin money

 

[Xyro77]

Without going the drama route, WHOBO 4 results was some of the most refreshing results ive ever seen in this game. I received more compliments and "wow that was really fun" from this event than any other HOBO(38 of them)/WHOBO(4 of them) ive held. I even had a few mk mains come up to me and say "whether mk should or should not be banned, seeing ike and ness in the top 8 was awesome."

 

[Kel]

Xyro, if you held another MK banned WHOBO the same day as APEX, I'd go to WHOBO.

 

[xDD-Master]

People have been trying to learn the MK MU for 4 years now and the best people can hope for is that the MK doesn't know the MU that well.

4 years isnt that much tbh.

Look at ST, where the tier list STILL changes, even after 20 years.

There are still "new" characters, I mean characters that were said to be bad, but suddenly a talented player picked them up and did REALLY well, even winning tournaments with them.

Maybe in another 4 years, other characters will be even or better vs / than MK.

As long as MK isnt unbeatable (Which he definitely ISNT at the current state brawl has) there is no real reason to ban him beside personal preference.

And in the end, personal preference is all that matters.

As some others already said: Hold your MK banned tournaments, have fun, and maybe more and more people prefer them over MK legal tournaments.

People will go to what they like the most. So IF MK banned events are what is more attracting to the people, people will attend them.

But right now, many people still seem to enjoy MK legal tournaments, otherwise they probably wouldnt attend them

 

[Keitaro]

I can't mentally take MK banned tournaments seriously. If it is a local it's a side event. If it is a National it's a National side event lol. I don't event care to watch the streams of them.

It just bothers me when there is no option to go MK.

I'm not trying to start an arguement, just stating my opinion on the subject. Overall it makes me less inclined to go to MK banned events and most of my Leap of Faith crew feels the same.

 

[Tesh]

razer not so hot when he can't go MK for free wins, just another MK main stealin money

Think about it a little harder though. How many times do you see top mid tier mains lose to "some metaknight" before they reach a top snake, diddy, lucario etc.

WHOBO had 3 MK users in top 4 tho

 

[Zucco]

Lol mk is ez, f olimar and DDD

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Think about it a little harder though. How many times do you see top mid tier mains lose to "some metaknight" before they reach a top snake, diddy, lucario etc.

WHOBO had 3 MK users in top 4 tho

How many of those 3 mained him? :o

 

[sneakytako]

I can't mentally take slaves banned seriously.

It just bothers me when there is no option to use slaves.

I'm not trying to start an argument, just stating my opinion on the subject. Overall it makes me less inclined to go to slave banned markets and most of my Leap of Faith crew feels the same.

Read it like this.

How is anyone ever going to convince someone like Keitaro? No matter how many numbers are displayed or how centralized the market gets as long as someone puts in enough hours on the field to outproduce slaves he's going to think slaves should be legal. You can't convince him that a world without slaves is better.

Do you see the analogy now Aisight? Now I see your resistance to the notion that using MK is morally wrong, but if you ignore that concept can you see how hard headed anti-ban people can be? This was the main parallel to the analogy, and people should take a step back and really reflect upon the numbers that OS has spent time on to produce.

If you can accept the MK is dominant, the next question should be 'why is MK dominant'? Is it a select few players that are so skilled with their character compared to the next best players that they can skew the tierlist / overall payout figures (People who come to mind are Masashi when he used pit, Esam, Kain, San)? No. All top 5 MKs are very competitive even at a national level, the top 4 are especially close.

Then what makes MK so dominant? How can over 50% of the overall money go to people who use MK?

Many people had a strong belief that it was the stages we use. Team Japan when they were at Apex repeatedly stated that they believe MK is not as dominant on less stages. SRT has produced the opposite results.

Anti-ban people, what do you think is the cause of MK's dominance? Because it looks like we're heading into a Sherlock Holmes logic where 'when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth'.

The BBR has been stating for a while that they want to wait for the meta to evolve to make their decision. How long are they planning to wait? How much longer till we can accept that the metagame has evolved to the point where we can be satisfied with our understanding of brawl to decide whether MK indeed does cause the game to limit itself? Do you think we will ever reach a point where we can make that kind of decision?

 

[Zankoku]

First of all, the BBR has no absolute authority on "making decisions" like people seem to think they do - hasn't it always been like that, where people ask BBR/URC/whatever to make the final decision, and then the community argues the decision to death anyway because it didn't go their way, etc.

Second of all, no, I don't really see your point behind the analogy. How is someone who prefers not to attend MK banned tournaments at all a point of an anti-ban person being hardheaded and refusing to accept facts? If Keitaro then uses his opinion to craft a tournament that nobody wants to go to, then sure, you can make a case, but seriously, attacking someone over his opinions and feelings?

At the end of it all, this is a game, and the rules made should reflect the format that has the best combination of competition and fun; I can see both sides, as Meta Knight's dominance does not necessarily undermine competition (even if in the worst case scenario it's a bunch of Meta Knights fighting for the title of best Meta Knight, which hasn't happened just yet) and there are those who find fun from playing against Meta Knight or within an environment with Meta Knights, and many people find it more fun without Meta Knight while not significantly devaluing compeition.

Then again, there are probably still people out there who make fun of others based on their opinion of items.

 

[Judo777]

Akuma has like 9-1 MU vs. (almost) everyone in ST, because the game wasnt designed to have Air Fireballs, which is why nearly no character (if any) can deal with them.

Its kinda like if MK had infinite jumps and stays under the stage all the time, no character is designed to beat someone below the stage.

He isnt that broken or broken at all in HDR, but he is still banned there because he always was banned.




So what? I dont see a problem, as long is he is beatable, which he is.



I like it.

No Sirlins exact quote (or there abouts) on why he was banned in HDR is because "Akuma is just too unsafe for the balance of this game, sure he wont be winning every tournament and there are a few characters who can certainly deal with his stuff, but more often than not someone will getting wins they don't deserve." Or thereabouts.

And no Akuma did not (9-1) everyone in ST. High level players have lost with Akuma in tournament (btw you actually can play Akuma like Ryu and there wont be much difference except ur just better overall). And like I have no idea how people made the claim that we just didn't understand the MK MU like the Japanese after 4 years of playing smash, but apparently Akumas MU's are set in stone when like no one has spent anytime learning the MU's.

 

[MegaRobMan]

lmao @ slave banned tournaments.

 

[Kel]

Something about Hitler

 

[Zankoku]

It was only a matter of time before it got to that, I guess.

 

[xDD-Master]

No Sirlins exact quote (or there abouts) on why he was banned in HDR is because "Akuma is just too unsafe for the balance of this game, sure he wont be winning every tournament and there are a few characters who can certainly deal with his stuff, but more often than not someone will getting wins they don't deserve." Or thereabouts.

And no Akuma did not (9-1) everyone in ST. High level players have lost with Akuma in tournament (btw you actually can play Akuma like Ryu and there wont be much difference except ur just better overall). And like I have no idea how people made the claim that we just didn't understand the MK MU like the Japanese after 4 years of playing smash, but apparently Akumas MU's are set in stone when like no one has spent anytime learning the MU's.

In Super Street Fighter II Turbo, Akuma is banned in U.S. tournaments. This is because, as David Sirlin writes, "Most characters in that game cannot beat Akuma. I don’t mean it’s a tough match—I mean they cannot ever, ever, ever, ever win. Akuma is 'broken' in that his air fireball move is something the game simply wasn’t designed to handle. He is not merely the best character in the game, but is at least ten times better than other characters. This case is so extreme that all top players in America immediately realized that all tournaments would be Akuma vs. Akuma only, and so the character was banned with basically no debate and has been ever since." In Japan, Akuma is not officially banned, but there is what is called a soft ban. In other words, all top players in Japan agree not to play Akuma without there being any official enforcement of this agreement. However, on the remake Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix, Akuma is toned down to ensure he's more "balanced"; his "flaws" like the very low defense clause reappear in this game and he has a much weaker Shun Goku Satsu as the only super move available (it's worth noting that he didn't have a super move in his original appearance Super Street Fighter II Turbo, but he was so powerful that these weren't considered a weakness). His air fireball forces him to bounce back. Some top players claim that he is still broken, claiming that Akuma has far too many devastating setups, especially with setting up the Shun Goku Satsu. It is still currently in debate whether or not Akuma is still broken or balanced.

http://streetfighter.wikia.com/wiki/Akuma

 

[Judo777]

No Sirlins exact quote (or there abouts) on why he was banned in HDR .......

In Super Street Fighter II Turbo....

..................... ill just wait.........

Also thats weird......because I have seen an Akuma player in ST lose in tournament play ..... so i mean ....... he infact obviously can lose.

And then he goes on to say "This case is so extreme that all top players in America immediately realized that all tournaments would be Akuma vs. Akuma only, and so the character was banned with basically no debate and has been ever since." Sounds to me like they took alot of time to study the character...........

No what they did was say "this character is broke" tell everyone else "this character is broke and ten times better than everyone else" when he in fact ...... is NOT. In fact his biggest supporting evidence is his ability to lock you in a corner with air fireballs, a characteristic that O. Sagat himself can do. O. Hawk can kill everyone off of one hit guaranteed if done right. And your trying to convince me hes really TEN times better than that? No hes not TEN times better, he is definitely WAY better than everyone else but they clearly exaggerated because the character needed banning. They didn't have other people that are like "well but how broke is too broke? I mean until you show us tournaments at top level play where everyone in top 8 is Akuma then I dont think hes broke" that didnt happen because they said "screw it just ban him."

Btw if ur referring to Akumas "MU chart" that states he (9-1)s everyone, are you gonna try and convince me that Akuma's MU's are equally difficult across the board? So someone like Gief that literally loses when he blocks a fireball in the corner does just as badly as O. Sagat or Claw? Yea sounds to me like they really took the time to study and break down the character.

 

[xDD-Master]

Maybe I exaggerated a bit too on that (Regarding the MU chat)
Actually I dont play the game competetively and only recite what I heard / read. (I also went to some FG Meetings here, and we talked about ST Akuma too last time, where all the players said he is too good for different reasons, actually I dont know a lot about the game)
I know that O. Hawk has some infinite, but I'm not sure if he has good set-ups for it and afaik its also insanely hard to do consistently.
Dont know about O. Sagat though.
Maybe you are right, and they shouldve waited for tournaments to be all akuma before banning him, dunno.

As for HDR, thats only what I read, that he was banned due do him always beeing banned in other / or all? SF II iterations.

As for the players popping up with Akuma in Tournaments and getting destroyed... I think thats what happened / happens in japan, where only the top players agreed on not playing him.
And player skill >>> character. Just like a top ganondorf can beat a noob ics, but a top ganondorf will never win vs 9B or Vinnie.

 

[Strong Badam]

HDR Akuma was banned because he was still broken. The developer that balanced him came out and said that the changes he made to Akuma weren't nearly enough and didn't end up doing what was intended to Akuma's playstyle to make him balanced.
Neither Akuma is comparable to MK, who has even MUs and can be outplayed.

 

[M@v]

by even mus youre referring to himself i guess? No character besides mk goes even with mk on every stage, hell, even the majority of the legal stages. Thats the kicker.

For example, take ice climbers. They go even and possibly even beat mk on FD. On Smashville its probably even. After that though, the line gets hazy because starting with bf, mk has multiple, consistently safe options for not getting grabbed. If mk doesn't get grabbed, ice climbers don't stand a chance.

With Falco, who I'm much more familiar with since he's one of my characters, you have an even matchup on FD, BF, and SV because those stages let falco maximize his camping, and he trades better camping on FD for better recovery options if he decides to go BF or SV. After those 3 stages, its hard for falco to camp safely and recover safely vs mk, and he probably loses the matchup on all other stages. You can make the argument he loses on the 3 neutrals too.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Just a quick question.
What happened to in this tourney?

 

[M@v]

M2K happened. Also nietono and brood faced eachother in losers.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Is the OP gonna be updated with full character usage over most of the top?

Sorry but still wanted to know about this for the characters under the top eight.

 

[Froggy]

I can't mentally take MK banned tournaments seriously. If it is a local it's a side event. If it is a National it's a National side event lol. I don't event care to watch the streams of them.

It just bothers me when there is no option to go MK.

I'm not trying to start an arguement, just stating my opinion on the subject. Overall it makes me less inclined to go to MK banned events and most of my Leap of Faith crew feels the same.

Why not, what is it about mk banned tournies that make them difficult to consider seriously?

And I may be out of the loop but isn't the ratio of mk banned to mk legal tournies about the same?

 

[John12346]

A lot of you people arguing seriously need to follow this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=317124

And view all of these archives(note that each link shows similar data, but are completely distinct):

Final Monetary Data of Characters in 2011: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11959822&postcount=2
AiB Post about it: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=132034
AiB Post about Monetary Data of Characters for the First Half of 2012: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=140871

I just see a lot of you throwing around random numbers and uncertainty of what is fact when you actually have it right here in front of you >___>;

Also, food for thought, if there was an air fireball limit imposed on Akuma(as a parallel to MK's LGL), do you suppose he still would have been ban material?

*back to watching*

 

[etecoon]

Why not, what is it about mk banned tournies that make them difficult to consider seriously?

And I may be out of the loop but isn't the ratio of mk banned to mk legal tournies about the same?

it's looked at as a side event because of novelty. side events are usually a fun excursion into unusual rules. same deal, MK ban mostly only happens in certain places in the US. europe, japan, and other areas of the US aren't going to ban MK so it is an unusual rule set

 

[Djent]

Also, food for thought, if there was an air fireball limit imposed on Akuma(as a parallel to MK's LGL), do you suppose he still would have been ban material?

I actually really like this point, and wonder why more pro-ban people haven't adopted it in their rhetoric. It's getting even sillier with these new scrooging rules that actually cost M2K a set.

"You want to ban ?!? ****in' scrub talk right there. REAL men allow strong characters, but then invent imaginary rules with the sole purpose of limiting them!"

 

[Hylian]

Anti just 2-0'd dabuz and is in winners finals of another mk banned tournament.

Man, banning mk sure showed those no skill mk mains that they rely on their "broken" character to win.

Oh wait, maybe they're just actually good at the game.

 

[xDD-Master]

He beat Vinnie now and is in Grand Final

 

[Hylian]

Man, Anti beating Vinnie with other characters but losing to him when he plays MK? How is that possible with a broken character?!?!?!?!! looool

 

[Overswarm]

Man, Anti beating Vinnie with other characters but losing to him when he plays MK? How is that possible with a broken character?!?!?!?!! looool

See, now this is just unintelligent.

 

[Tesh]

Because Vinnie only reached the top level of the shallow MK legal metagame and doesn't know how to handle diversity.

 

[Judo777]

HDR Akuma was banned because he was still broken. The developer that balanced him came out and said that the changes he made to Akuma weren't nearly enough and didn't end up doing what was intended to Akuma's playstyle to make him balanced.
Neither Akuma is comparable to MK, who has even MUs and can be outplayed.

This statement again cannot be made. Because again there is not a lot of sufficient data to prove that Akuma has no even MU's (he probably doesn't) because not a lot of testing was done. he was banned almost immediately. And Akuma can be outplayed and beaten, it has happened.

Also i have already paraphrased why they banned Akuma in HDR from the guy who balanced the game. Like he said, some people can deal with his stuff, and he wont always win, but too often someone will win that didn't deserve it.

Anti just 2-0'd dabuz and is in winners finals of another mk banned tournament.

Man, banning mk sure showed those no skill mk mains that they rely on their "broken" character to win.

Oh wait, maybe they're just actually good at the game.

As he names the ONLY MK in America that actually knows freaking MU's. Like for real I think alot of people who play not as popular characters (like myself) would probably agree that Anti is the LAST MK in the nation that they want to play. That guy actually knows MU's (scary thought huh?). Anti doesn't Shuttle Loop Olimar like everytime Olimar is above him only to have it whistled and completely give up his juggle for 12%.

 

[Zankoku]

...? Is he also the only MK in America who knows matchups that don't in any way involve MK?