Eddie G
Smash Hero
"An Aba'dingo' ate my baby!"
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Results of SRT
- Thread starter Ayuha
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Overswarm
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What would be different? I don't even play anymore and beat you at the last tournament, and you still play! =P
Here's the thing. This "live and let live thing" doesn't work, because when MK is legal there is no future.
You have two options with MK legal being a "thing":
1) Play Meta Knight
2) Go to local events
Those are your options. Anything else is you going against the grain. Hell, Vinnie is playing Ice Climbers, a character that just needs three grabs to win an entire game, and traveled halfway across the world to get to a tournament that had a ruleset specifically designed for his character and he still could only pull second to a Meta Knight. Even if he had won it wouldn't have mattered because MK always has, and always will pull out on top. There's no "hero" character, even when someone puts a bunch of arbitrary rules to gimp MK and another bunch of arbitrary rules to make ICs, or Diddy, or Olimar, or Snake, or whoever better.
There's nowhere to go. No one has the "drive" any more, not for long. They practice real hard and get really far sometimes, but then they burn out and disappear.
People are laving because there's no future in Brawl. No one respects any of the top players in Brawl because no one feels they deserve respect. Our top placers are generally flavors of the month or main Meta Knight. Even when we get a big challenger or someone who practices and refines their technique as much as they can like Vinnie, again, no one really cares. Very few people want to be the guy who sits and practices chain grabs. No one really looks up to that. Nothing against Vinnie's character choice, but it's the reality; I'd personally recommend everyone pick up ICs when the stage list is small, but people just don't like it very often.
In Melee the top players were heroes of the underdogs and there was a whole slew of them. You had maybe 4 or 5 characters that could really make it at the top. Fox, Falco, Marth, Peach, Falcon. Much later we got Jiggs. People chose the character that suited them the best and people hoarded games to emulate the pros they could find.
Now? No one cares because nearly all of them main Meta Knight. Those that don't have Meta Knight as a secondary.
When I was playing Melee I always prided myself in being good at counterpicks; I rarely lost a set 2-0, even to top players. By the end of Melee I was beating some of the same people I had previously looked up to. I didn't look up to those people because they were necessarily the best; they were just really good with their characters. Mathos and Viperboy's Falco's, Drephen's Sheik, Darkrain's Falcon, Tink and Cunning's Fox, Vidjo, Mikey and Iggy's Peach, none of them really compared to the others in the country. But people still looked up to them from the area because they all were unique and special. People joked about "everyone playing Fox", but a good Fox was rare and an impressive sight. People enjoyed playing as and against and watching good Foxes.
If you went back in time and made all of those players play the same character, no one in the midwest would have known half of them existed. It's how it goes.
When you expanded to the national scene, even in Melee, it got even more restrictive. You had maybe one or two Sheik players. Half a dozen foxes. 3 to 5 Marth players. About the same amount of Falco's. One peach, maybe two. Same with Falcon. Towards the end, you'd get one or two Jiggs but most people hated watching Jiggs play because it didn't fit with what they enjoyed.
But that variety still helped fuel people's desires to be better. People didn't want to "get better", they wanted to get better with their character by emulating others who had done the same.
No one wants to be like Mew2King in Brawl. No one.
But you know what?
Everyone wanted to emulate Mew2King in Melee.
It's because he was special, unique. But even now when he's still placing as high as ever and the most dominant smasher to date, no one wants to emulate him because he's just another Meta Knight. No one respects his victories. No one cares about what happens between two MKs.
There's no life in Brawl. The game itself has some issues that make it hard, but MK is the nail in the coffin. No one wants a community that has tournaments that turn out like SRT.
Here's the thing. This "live and let live thing" doesn't work, because when MK is legal there is no future.
You have two options with MK legal being a "thing":
1) Play Meta Knight
2) Go to local events
Those are your options. Anything else is you going against the grain. Hell, Vinnie is playing Ice Climbers, a character that just needs three grabs to win an entire game, and traveled halfway across the world to get to a tournament that had a ruleset specifically designed for his character and he still could only pull second to a Meta Knight. Even if he had won it wouldn't have mattered because MK always has, and always will pull out on top. There's no "hero" character, even when someone puts a bunch of arbitrary rules to gimp MK and another bunch of arbitrary rules to make ICs, or Diddy, or Olimar, or Snake, or whoever better.
There's nowhere to go. No one has the "drive" any more, not for long. They practice real hard and get really far sometimes, but then they burn out and disappear.
People are laving because there's no future in Brawl. No one respects any of the top players in Brawl because no one feels they deserve respect. Our top placers are generally flavors of the month or main Meta Knight. Even when we get a big challenger or someone who practices and refines their technique as much as they can like Vinnie, again, no one really cares. Very few people want to be the guy who sits and practices chain grabs. No one really looks up to that. Nothing against Vinnie's character choice, but it's the reality; I'd personally recommend everyone pick up ICs when the stage list is small, but people just don't like it very often.
In Melee the top players were heroes of the underdogs and there was a whole slew of them. You had maybe 4 or 5 characters that could really make it at the top. Fox, Falco, Marth, Peach, Falcon. Much later we got Jiggs. People chose the character that suited them the best and people hoarded games to emulate the pros they could find.
Now? No one cares because nearly all of them main Meta Knight. Those that don't have Meta Knight as a secondary.
When I was playing Melee I always prided myself in being good at counterpicks; I rarely lost a set 2-0, even to top players. By the end of Melee I was beating some of the same people I had previously looked up to. I didn't look up to those people because they were necessarily the best; they were just really good with their characters. Mathos and Viperboy's Falco's, Drephen's Sheik, Darkrain's Falcon, Tink and Cunning's Fox, Vidjo, Mikey and Iggy's Peach, none of them really compared to the others in the country. But people still looked up to them from the area because they all were unique and special. People joked about "everyone playing Fox", but a good Fox was rare and an impressive sight. People enjoyed playing as and against and watching good Foxes.
If you went back in time and made all of those players play the same character, no one in the midwest would have known half of them existed. It's how it goes.
When you expanded to the national scene, even in Melee, it got even more restrictive. You had maybe one or two Sheik players. Half a dozen foxes. 3 to 5 Marth players. About the same amount of Falco's. One peach, maybe two. Same with Falcon. Towards the end, you'd get one or two Jiggs but most people hated watching Jiggs play because it didn't fit with what they enjoyed.
But that variety still helped fuel people's desires to be better. People didn't want to "get better", they wanted to get better with their character by emulating others who had done the same.
No one wants to be like Mew2King in Brawl. No one.
But you know what?
Everyone wanted to emulate Mew2King in Melee.
It's because he was special, unique. But even now when he's still placing as high as ever and the most dominant smasher to date, no one wants to emulate him because he's just another Meta Knight. No one respects his victories. No one cares about what happens between two MKs.
There's no life in Brawl. The game itself has some issues that make it hard, but MK is the nail in the coffin. No one wants a community that has tournaments that turn out like SRT.
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
ZTD | TECHnology
Developing New TECHnology
I agree with certain parts of your posts, I just disagree with the severity of some of the points you bring up. I'm also not inclined to debate here. It just doesn't accomplish anything positive.
Also to the first line of your post...I was bad then lmao. I'm slightly less bad now :D
This site sucks sometimes
Also to the first line of your post...I was bad then lmao. I'm slightly less bad now :D
This site sucks sometimes
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
reported imo
Overswarm
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People say that because they refuse to allow their minds to be changed. They look at it more as a game within a game, that somehow they'd "lose" if they were wrong or if he was banned.
Most of the people that could see the debates probably forget that I was anti-ban (while playing ROB) and held off for a long time. I even switched from ROB, despite still winning money consistently in singles with constant 1st/2nd places and having a dominant doubles team, to Meta Knight and had to learn a new character from scratch... just to see if MK was too good. Turns out he was.
When you see people making arguments, don't ask yourself "is that right". Ask "if that is true, would it be bad". Then figure out if it's right or not. You'll be surprised how much it hits home.
I'm just teasin'. I've got an image to uphold.
But srsly, shield camp that ledge when ROB is on it and mess him up afterwards. No one should lose to me, I don't even play this game XD
All I know is that I predicted everything that's happened so far in regards to MK with some pretty uncanny accuracy. He's still fitting along the growth trend. Nothing's gonna knock him from the top and Brawl's still gonna go downhill.
The scariest thing to me is what if this happens again? The community royally messed up with MK and had a "Let's wait and see" period of a million years rather than banning him when we had plenty of evidence. After the BBR sat around and debated it, the conclusion was "MK is too over centralizing and is bad for the metagame, but we have no evidence that removing him would make it any better (maybe people will just all play Snake) and we have no evidence that it won't change in the future". Now we know it will only change for the worse and the metagame without MK is pretty glorious.
But now it's nearly too late.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Djent
Smash Champion
DAMN. This is some heavy stuff, but it's absolutely true. Good :metaknightbrawl:s are a dime a dozen now. Just look at Vennie's list: you could literally argue *any* of the positions after the first few :metaknightbrawl:s, but every other character has a clear hierarchy of who stands where. I imagine it would be completely unmotivating to be a great :metaknightbrawl: player and just be like "eh, I'm somewhere between the 5th and 9th best with my character." LOL! I can't imagine working so hard for a character and having the pay-off be so vague. I kind of feel bad for them in a way, though they chose the path for themselves. When getting to the top yields so little fulfillment, some people will stop trying - which is exactly what has happened IMO.
xDD-Master
Smash Champion
Stop speaking for everyone LOL. I personally respect M2Ks Skill a lot, in both melee and brawl. And he is one of my Top 4 favorite MKs, next to Otori, Kakera and Nairo. I like M2Ks Style a lot, even though he struggles sometimes. Just because you have a problem with him or his playstyle doesnt mean that everyone else has.
Eddie G
Smash Hero
Yeah...OS' reminiscence of the past honestly hit home for me. I used to have such a love and passion for the game, and a huge drive to improve (which I was steadily doing), and for some reason...I ditched it to play Brawl. What the **** was I thinking? Melee is still going strong, still gets hype crowds frequently (not just as nationals), and still is hype to watch. Man...I might just go back to it soon. Watching the recent FC vids reminds me of the old days when I was this super technical player on my way up the ladder. *sigh*
Kel
Smash Master
The only problem is that Melee has a stagnant attendance. Melee guys are mostly in their mid twenties and numbers will begin to dwindle as people get married, have kids, have cars repoed, etc. etc.
The people you play Melee with today will be the same people you will play with in 5 years. The only difference will be that a lot of people will drop out. This will be especially true when Smash 4 comes out in a couple years.
Don't get me wrong, I love Melee, I just love it like I love Ocarina of Time; it was an awesome game for its time, but I've moved on. Plus Melee guys are the cranky kong of smash.
The people you play Melee with today will be the same people you will play with in 5 years. The only difference will be that a lot of people will drop out. This will be especially true when Smash 4 comes out in a couple years.
Don't get me wrong, I love Melee, I just love it like I love Ocarina of Time; it was an awesome game for its time, but I've moved on. Plus Melee guys are the cranky kong of smash.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
All of this.
If anything, people should (and probably do) like M2K more than they did before, because back then we saw a whole lot of him CPing to Brinstar/RC/Delfino and timing people out (not hating on this), and nowadays with the smaller stagelists (not that I approve of this) and the scrooging rule (I approve of this, cause he also timed people out on SV LOL) he's a lot more aggro and doesn't focus as much on timeouts.
MegaRobMan
Smash Hero
Most of you are just mad that M2K is better at your favorite gaming series than you.
But did you know that Smash isn't even his favorite gaming series?
Fact: Megaman is M2K's favorite series.
Fact: He is, and has accepted, his #2 spot on SWF Megaman rankings/
Get at me.
Free M2K.
loool.
This topic is awesome because I agree with both sides, much like an uninformed voter, I think we should allow for people to run whatever event they want.
Items, Giant Brawl, New Pork City, FFA's.
I mean, if you want to run a serious event and get people to come, you should cater to what you feel is best for your scene.
Melee at brawl events is the best thing for my scene, so I do that.
OS, it kinda made me a bit upset that you didn't go to that one tournament just because MK was legal. I mean, I'm never in the OH/KY region and you were like 'Oh, it's MK legal so I can't even come to meet you and hang out". I realize you hate MK with a passion, it's obvious, but being that blinded by hatred can only get you so far.
Yeah, Kel "only" beat me because he went MK in tournament, but he also "only" has spent like 4 years maining this character, and I know he's really big on the ban as well.
I'm fine with the ban.
And you people arguing with OS.
You guys are all really bad at explaining your views compared to him, it's like Juu said, it's like watching the smartest kid on the block vs the biggest, dumbest jock in a lot of these arguments.
But did you know that Smash isn't even his favorite gaming series?
Fact: Megaman is M2K's favorite series.
Fact: He is, and has accepted, his #2 spot on SWF Megaman rankings/
Get at me.
Free M2K.
loool.
This topic is awesome because I agree with both sides, much like an uninformed voter, I think we should allow for people to run whatever event they want.
Items, Giant Brawl, New Pork City, FFA's.
I mean, if you want to run a serious event and get people to come, you should cater to what you feel is best for your scene.
Melee at brawl events is the best thing for my scene, so I do that.
OS, it kinda made me a bit upset that you didn't go to that one tournament just because MK was legal. I mean, I'm never in the OH/KY region and you were like 'Oh, it's MK legal so I can't even come to meet you and hang out". I realize you hate MK with a passion, it's obvious, but being that blinded by hatred can only get you so far.
Yeah, Kel "only" beat me because he went MK in tournament, but he also "only" has spent like 4 years maining this character, and I know he's really big on the ban as well.
I'm fine with the ban.
And you people arguing with OS.
You guys are all really bad at explaining your views compared to him, it's like Juu said, it's like watching the smartest kid on the block vs the biggest, dumbest jock in a lot of these arguments.
SoulPech
Smash Master
This post is glorious. I agree 100% on this.
ZTD | TECHnology
Developing New TECHnology
Overswarm
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I have no reason to go to MK legal tournaments and had stuff to do up here. Why didn't YOU come up HERE, huh?!
Also, I could totally beat Mew2King in a Megaman battle. Guy didn't even know you could avoid Wood Man's leaves and failed at air man like 7 times before I took over. Mew2King just can't do bosses.
Plus I could mess him up by making noise because he plays by the music.
Judo777
Smash Master
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Now hang on a second. i was assured that 9B and Nietono were the best players in the world by like everyone ever who has connections to Japan. Why didn't they win? And I remember saying a while back that Rain was considered the best in Japan from what I had heard and everyone told me I was wrong.
So what's the deal guys why are the best players in the world who by chance don't play MK not winning.....and the guy who I was told was not the best who plays MK winning?
So what's the deal guys why are the best players in the world who by chance don't play MK not winning.....and the guy who I was told was not the best who plays MK winning?
You're making a generalization about one tournament, if you look at results 9b has won more tournaments than rain by a longshot there.
I don't really care for arguing about this subject, but there is faulty logic flying everywhere.
Overswarm
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That's kind of the point. He was being facetious.
Black Mantis
Smash Hero
Nicholas1024
Smash Lord
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You're overstating your case, OS. I agree with you that MK is clearly the best character and the easy route to winning at tourneys... but that doesn't make him unbeatable like you're implying. Making cases off of a single tourney is rather silly anyway, but Vinnie took a set from Rain and beat Otori (winner of Apex), so..
Again, you're generalizing. We've had some excellent players rise from relative obscurity over the course of the game (Esam, anyone?), and they haven't burned out yet.
Expand your views outside of the top 3 and look again. Everyone hates MK because he's MK, Olimar is THE best camper in a slow-paced game, and fighting IC's is one of the worst things in brawl. However, everyone enjoys watching Ally's Snake, Gnes's Diddy Kong, Trela's Lucario, Esam's Pikachu, or Mr. R's Marth. These are players that absolutely dominate their region and place respectably at nationals. (With the help of secondaries in some cases, but Ally's performance at Whobo shows that he wouldn't be crippled by the lack of MK.)
Again, you're overstating your case. It's been proved MK is dominant and over-centralized. However, that doesn't mean the other top characters aren't represented.
I'm going to have to disagree with you, at least partially. Variety is definitely good, and M2K in Melee is definitely far more unique and respected than M2K in Brawl. However, I think the reason people don't respect him as much in Brawl is because of his playstyle, as well as his character choice. M2Knight is willing to go to RC and stall for 8 minutes to win a match. Sure, that's a legitimate choice when you're trying to win, but it's horribly unfun to play against or watch. A MK player like Nairo is more fun to watch and is more likely to have the crowd on his side, simply because he's more aggressive.
To summarize, your points have all been at least based in fact, but you let your personal view of things get in the way of the arguments, I think. I'm not going to dispute that MK is overcentralizing or the best character, and I'm not arguing that he shouldn't be banned, either (although I'm undecided on that particular point). However, I will take issue with your claim that Brawl is a dying game. Sure, there's a lot of MK. Sure Olimar and IC's are just as unfun to watch or play against. However, there's also Snake, Falco, Diddy Kong, Pikachu, Marth, Wario, and other characters who have had success at a top level. How many MK's can you name from California, Florida, or Texas? How many non-MK's can you name from those same regions? Esam, MikeHaze, DEHF, Razer, Trela, Gnes, NickRiddle, Ryo, Sebrik, MVD... the list goes on.
To repeat the point, I'm not suggesting MK isn't broken, or even that he shouldn't be banned. However, despite its issues, Brawl is far from dead, and claiming MK has killed the game only undermines your own argument.
Judo777
Smash Master
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For sure. lol
Nicholas1024
Smash Lord
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Ah. Well, scratch that point then. I only really started following Melee recently, so I never saw those matches (though I did see his puff Ditto vs HBox recently. XD)
brawl has no future regardless of MK being banned or not, even so, you didn't address the concern of how to actually enforce a ban. it's all well and good to say that MK should be banned, but you have to come up with something that will work better than unity. if you don't have actual solutions then all you're doing is beating your chest over being right on the internet
and no one emulates M2K in brawl? -dead-
and no one emulates M2K in brawl? -dead-
Judo777
Smash Master
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The same way they banned akuma? Tell everyone he is broken, run your tournaments with him banned. Seems easy enough.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIct3v-AX04
and you didn't even have money on the line
everyone, search overswarm melee on youtube. none of the gameplay videos will be respectable or entertaining in any way. this is the man that is so full of himself and argues constantly, yelling until he's blue about how broken MK is, and for whatever reason brings up the actually irrelevant fact about MK's lack of entertainment, which is a hilariously laughable point when you have Olimar and ICs in this game as well.
get over yourself
LOL I played OS in a friendly set at FC:D in melee and beat him the first game with kirby vs his fox. He then went to kongofalls(or whatever the waterfall stage was with the rock on the right) and just ran away from me and spammed lasers for 8 minutes. Third game I 3 stocked him in a fox ditto(because apparently friendlies are important enough to camp for 8 minutes).
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my point exactly
Overswarm
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Our entire crew beat you, myself included. You played me with Samus, if I recall correctly, and I beat you on game 3. I only remember this because GUNPUNCH! laughed about how mediocre you were in Melee, even by the standards at the time, yet of all people had started doing stuff on smashboards as a mod/admin type player.
Regardless, I wasn't ever that good at Melee. I played it for fun and to prepare for Brawl, and the only thing I really practiced was stages (and it worked). I made it to bracket at every tournament and at the start generally hit around 0-2 or 1-2, and by the end was making somewhere in the top 8-16 depending on the size of the tournament. I came in late and played for fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxgOkRyG3ho
Watch that one instead.
Uh, no. I was very bad at melee back then(FC:D was the first time I traveled out of state). I didn't play you with samus I played you with kirby and fox in one friendly set. I played your crew with a bunch of other random players(we were all bad) and lost to Kel pretty badly in the crew match. I also wasn't a moderator much less an admin until WELL after FC:D so clearly you are just full of ****.
Overswarm
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http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=109534&highlight=Diamond
Singles:
81st Overswarm
193rd Hylian
Doubles:
33rd AlphaZealot+Overswarm
97th Hylian+Artarian
Our crew barely missed out in top 9 in crews (lost to Ship of Fools, my sheik vs. Prime's Jiggs on Brinstar and I got rested real good :\)
I don't recall losing to you, but if I did I honestly don't think it really matters. Maybe I was trying to make you feel better? I dunno.
Edit: Just realized you were one placement above the lowest possible placement.
Get froed.
And GUNPUNCH! talked about that during Brawl times because, well, that's when you were a mod/admin. You're awful touchy.
Overswarm
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Man, reading that results thread makes me really, really sad for Brawl. A lot of the melee kids turned into stupid cranky kong types now, but back then everyone had so much hope.
Makes me really sad reading that, because every little victory I had was an inspiration to do better at the time. I had two stocked Isai, nearly beaten Jiano in a set, played tons of friendlies with Gimpyfish, got to play some awesome iron man matches with g-reg and got invited to play a series of friendlies against Darkrain (who got me into smash)....
Good times.
It's kinda funny, no one ever really complained about a character then. They complained about specific matchups, but never characters.
Makes me really sad reading that, because every little victory I had was an inspiration to do better at the time. I had two stocked Isai, nearly beaten Jiano in a set, played tons of friendlies with Gimpyfish, got to play some awesome iron man matches with g-reg and got invited to play a series of friendlies against Darkrain (who got me into smash)....
Good times.
It's kinda funny, no one ever really complained about a character then. They complained about specific matchups, but never characters.
Right, and I already said I was really bad at melee back then so I'm not sure what your point is or what it had to do with my point. You clearly wanted to make me feel better overswarm by running away for 8 minutes in a friendly.
Neither you or anyone from your crew has played me in melee since then so I'm not really sure why you would be talking about how good I was in melee years ago with your crew after I became an admin(again, YEARS after FC).
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Then why is it you that's complaining the loudest? Melee players have integrity. When we lose, we figure out what we can do to what we lost to. They don't complain that the character the opponent was using needs to be banned, they don't bring up how good a character is in a results thread for an international tournament. They man up and get better.
You are right, I apologize for de-railing the thread.
Watching Vinnie was hype, stayed up all night cheering him on
. Good stuff to him.
Overswarm
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I did that. I lived off of Brawl for a decent amount of time; I quit my job because it made me more money and I wanted more time.
But imagine if Fox's up-smash killed at 40%, for an arbitrary example.
Fox wouldn't be unstoppable by any means. People could say things like "just grab him and chain grab him to death" or "he's not broken because you can gimp his recovery". But in reality? He'd have a hefty advantage that would really put a damper on the metagame of Melee. Eventually you'd see Fox as one of the only characters out there; you'd have people who could rise up with others, but Fox was still the bread and butter. Some people would suck with him, some would be good, but you'd always have your results tainted in a slight fashion.
You can say "let's man up and get better" but the "get better" part would be maining Fox, just like right now it's maining MK in Brawl. It doesn't make sense to not do that. There's no "I'll learn to not get upsmashed" just like there's no "I'll learn to play Game & Watch and land judgement hammers" in Melee. It's a fools errand.
You don't have a "broken" character. You have several characters with awesome potential and a lot of aggressive options. Brawl has one character that is above and beyond the rest, and then several that fall behind him simply because they do the best against that character due to their defensive options. No one likes it.
Also I just watched a lot of our old friendlies in Melee. It was pretty fun to watch them, so thanks for that. I really enjoyed watching the Marth ones since that was when I was first picking up Marth "for srs" after FC and Kel was teaching me.
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