Results of SRT

[xDD-Master]

if ganondorf happens to dominate naturally across time and across different rulesets as MK has done, then there are two conclusions you could draw:
1. Nobody has figured out how to counter Ganondorf effectively
2. Ganondorf is too good

I can understand everything you said, and especially this part is important, because 1) is exactly the case of MK.

So far only IDC and perfect planking is KNOWN to be (nearly) unbeatable. It is impossible to do though in our current ruleset (IDC-Ban and LGL), so MK is beatable.

If you could show me, that MK is not beatable (Therefore he has a tactic that cant be beaten by some character(s)) I wouldnt even argue. But I see MKs losing to characters. So I can only assume that he is beatable, and IF people would get better MK could be quite less of a problem.

And I know, that Ganondorf would never be able to be SO succesful, even if all Top Players mained him, ofc. there would be players that would figure out how to beat him, because he can be beaten pretty hard.

But my example was just there to show, that it COULD be that we may just suck, and MK isnt 'that' good (This is up to opinion anyway).
And as long as we cant say for guarantee that MK IS too good, we shouldnt force a ban or something (Like the URC did). Its no problem leaving that up to the TO, because just like MT/LT there can be MK-banned events. It just shouldnt be the standard IMO.


But as I said, I understand your standpoint. I never said I dont, its just that there is no objective reason why MK HAS to be banned, in the end its just opinion. You cant tell someone that their MK Metagame is 'wrong' or anything like that, if their metagame has proven itself to be working (See all the tournaments they have).

 

[Ralph Cecil]

 

[theunabletable]

You used Ad hominem incorrectly.

Alright, I'll admit that you didn't use him "being an idiot" as justification. So it's not ad hominem, and you're right. It's disrespectful, though, and was more meant to highlight your unbearable arrogance (that you insist on bringing into every discussion), not that it's illogical to call someone an idiot.

The strawman fallacy is only applicable during situations involving deliberate spin in order to reach a pertinent agenda

What you said: Yes you did. "It's player vs. player, not character vs. character".

What Vinnie actually said: People forget that it's player vs player, not just character vs character.

It's clear from that, as well as other posts that Vinnie's made that he isn't AT ALL saying that tiers don't exist, and indicating that he is saying that, by taking a quote of his and removing an important word, is surely fallacious. The meaning he was getting at (let's not forget words are here to serve people, not the other way around) was that players and their skill is ALSO a variable, not that characters AREN'T a variable.

it is pretty obvious by the amount of data I've collected over the year that it isn't a simple correlation.

god I do not feel like getting into this, that is ONLY fueled by biases.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, essentially you're saying something along the lines of: "This data proves that MK wins 50% of the money, therefore MK is dominant, therefore MK is too dominant, therefore MK ought to be banned"?

The fact that you posted this means I should remind you that correlation != causation is meant to convey that correlation alone does not imply causation, not that it cannot be present. By definition, correlation or lack thereof is ever-present in a truth between two independent variables despite not having an effect itself on the outcome of any scenario.

This is all true, and I do appreciate the data

Good luck in your freshman logic class!

Thanks. While I'm there want me to help find you a referral to a proctologist? Having your head ingrained fully into your *** must be uncomfortable.

 

[Overswarm]

It's clear from that, as well as other posts that Vinnie's made that he isn't AT ALL saying that tiers don't exist, and indicating that he is saying that, by taking a quote of his and removing an important word, is surely fallacious. The meaning he was getting at (let's not forget words are here to serve people, not the other way around) was that players and their skill is ALSO a variable, not that characters AREN'T a variable.

This is under the assumption that it was my intent; it wasn't. Mistating something isn't a straw man itself.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, essentially you're saying something along the lines of: "This data proves that MK wins 50% of the money, therefore MK is dominant, therefore MK is too dominant, therefore MK ought to be banned"?

More "we've repeatedly asked and received statements from anti-ban groups and individuals on both an official and unofficial basis for their justification for MK being legal despite the popular vote wanting him banned in addition to what it would take to do so; we have since surpassed every bar they have established despite them moving the goalpost after each iteration. Currently their only defense is "well it's all opinion anyway", which is why we asked for what it would take to ban him and why he should be legal [which, while not essential in an argument on normal terms, fits with the same groups' logic as far as stage legality and thus had influence in the argument at hand]."

Thanks. While I'm there want me to help find you a referral to a proctologist? Having your head ingrained fully into your *** must be uncomfortable.

You would be incorrect.


Good hustle.

 

[theunabletable]

This is under the assumption that it was my intent; it wasn't. Mistating something isn't a straw man itself.

So you take back what you said to Vinnie? When you said "Yes you did. 'It's player vs. player, not character vs. character'."? If so, I think you owe him an apology to Vinnie as well.

More "we've repeatedly asked and received statements from anti-ban groups and individuals on both an official and unofficial basis for their justification for MK being legal despite the popular vote wanting him banned in addition to what it would take to do so; we have since surpassed every bar they have established despite them moving the goalpost after each iteration. Currently their only defense is "well it's all opinion anyway", which is why we asked for what it would take to ban him and why he should be legal [which, while not essential in an argument on normal terms, fits with the same groups' logic as far as stage legality and thus had influence in the argument at hand]."

Alright, that's fair. So what's your justification for a national ban on MK based on national popular vote? Wouldn't a more... federalist approach be more suited to serving everyone's desires? Where the regions that want him banned get him banned, and the ones that want him legal get him legal?

Where is it that we go from "It's all opinion" to "so we should ban him nationally"?

 

[xDD-Master]

Why keeping him legal you ask for?

Because he is a character in this game, and the game is about characters more than anything else.

Why do we make tier lists, look at characters in results, talk about match ups, watch videos from players, do LT- and MT-Events etc.?

Because we MOSTLY care about characters, not stages, not items, not the timer, not whatever. Its the characters.

Therefore keeping as many as possible is the best. Sure, you might see more characters getting high placings with MK banned, BUT the same can be said with banning DDD or whatever.

But as soon as you ban a character, you take THE OPTION to use these characters. While with MK allowed you CAN still use every character (Well, even if you will lose the match, thats your decision, BUT you have at least the option to pick whatever character you want).

Enough reason for you?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Why does every big tournament results thread devolve into an MK discussion...lol

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I think it's just every thread that even mentions MK turns into one, but this one is my favorite so far lol.

 

[Djent]

Man, back in '09 people were upset about 22% of top 3 placings being - I bet a lot of you would like to go back to that now, eh?

 

[etecoon]

Why does every big tournament results thread devolve into an MK discussion...lol

because banning MK would totally work and this is a completely pragmatic thing to pursue

alphazealot's conspiracy couldn't keep MK down, at this point some people just get off from going "we have better charts than you!"

 

[Juushichi]

But anti-ban doesn't have any charts at all!

 

[Krystedez]

Oh man this thread

Should we not at least stay remotely on topic, gentlemen?

 

[pidgezero_one]

congrats vinnie

 

[Strong Badam]

leave it to the MK haters (esp Overswarm) to turn a tourney results thread into something it isn't. at this tournament, a first happened. players from the US went to a Japanese tourney for pretty much the first time after APEX had proved the Japanese were all but unbeatable. and they performed amazingly, with Vinnie nearly taking the tournament in one of the most stacked tournaments to date. and all you MK haters can talk about is how broken MK is when it's been demonstrated in tournament after tournament that you can outplay an MK player and beat MK. the sad part is that vinnie could have won the tournament and you'd still be whining about MK!
if MK is that much of a problem then don't play the game. the players that are still playing Brawl today are not in it specifically for every aspect of the game without MK, or they'd have quit long ago.
i assure you that removing MK from the game doesn't suddenly make this game amazing. there are still polarized MUs, Olimar/ICs are still selectable and frustrating characters to fight, Snake still inexplicably weighs more than DDD, Charizard, Ganondorf, and Samus and lives forever, Ness/Lucas are still infinited by characters for no reason other than they are ness and lucas, DDD has chaingrabs that you can't do anything about, and even the bad characters have autocombos with no player interaction that add no depth to the game. no, removing MK is not the solution. it's the problem. alphazealot tried his hardest to get MK banned; he set up a panel of people to make a ruleset and filled it with people that are pro-ban. they left stages that have no business being legal on, MK or not, in hopes that MK's dominance would increase due to them and convince people that he is broken. he made it a smashboards policy to not sticky threads that didn't use the unity ruleset. he did just about ANYTHING he could to get the character banned, and it still failed. you want to know why? because the character isn't worth banning, and the community doesn't want him banned.
you are a disgrace to the community. please find another game to be a scrub in. i will not respond to any responses to this post. i have things to do that will actually support the community rather than complaining about how good the best character in the game is.

on a brighter note, amazing job to all of.... the top 32 of this tourney, and probably even further. holy crap. i was actually entertained in watching the SRT stream, which is something that does not happen very often for a brawl stream. good job to Havok/Vinnie/M2K for repping USA, and performing great with the odds stacked against you. this & apex will usher in a new era in smash competition; an international one.

 

[Krystedez]

>complains that thread turns into off topic stuff
> contributes to off topic nonsense

kthx!

And I hope M2K and others continue repping in future tourneys like this.

 

[BlueXenon]

leave it to the MK haters (esp Overswarm) to turn a tourney results thread into something it isn't. at this tournament, a first happened. players from the US went to a Japanese tourney for pretty much the first time after APEX had proved the Japanese were all but unbeatable. and they performed amazingly, with Vinnie nearly taking the tournament in one of the most stacked tournaments to date. and all you MK haters can talk about is how broken MK is when it's been demonstrated in tournament after tournament that you can outplay an MK player and beat MK. the sad part is that vinnie could have won the tournament and you'd still be whining about MK!
if MK is that much of a problem then don't play the game. the players that are still playing Brawl today are not in it specifically for every aspect of the game without MK, or they'd have quit long ago.
i assure you that removing MK from the game doesn't suddenly make this game amazing. there are still polarized MUs, Olimar/ICs are still selectable and frustrating characters to fight, Snake still inexplicably weighs more than DDD, Charizard, Ganondorf, and Samus and lives forever, Ness/Lucas are still infinited by characters for no reason other than they are ness and lucas, DDD has chaingrabs that you can't do anything about, and even the bad characters have autocombos with no player interaction that add no depth to the game. no, removing MK is not the solution. it's the problem. alphazealot tried his hardest to get MK banned; he set up a panel of people to make a ruleset and filled it with people that are pro-ban. they left stages that have no business being legal on, MK or not, in hopes that MK's dominance would increase due to them and convince people that he is broken. he made it a smashboards policy to not sticky threads that didn't use the unity ruleset. he did just about ANYTHING he could to get the character banned, and it still failed. you want to know why? because the character isn't worth banning, and the community doesn't want him banned.
you are a disgrace to the community. please find another game to be a scrub in. i will not respond to any responses to this post. i have things to do that will actually support the community rather than complaining about how good the best character in the game is.

on a brighter note, amazing job to all of.... the top 32 of this tourney, and probably even further. holy crap. i was actually entertained in watching the SRT stream, which is something that does not happen very often for a brawl stream. good job to Havok/Vinnie/M2K for repping USA, and performing great with the odds stacked against you. this & apex will usher in a new era in smash competition; an international one.

This was a great post. I wish the forum had a favorite posts list where you can save your favorite posts and look back at them whenever you want.

 

[Tesh]

Alphazealots runs the smash senate on this site and decides who can be a major TO across the continent?

i think if he worked that hard we should give him what he wanted.

Anti-ban does have one thing going for them. If we ban MK, there will be no international competition (at least not from the only region that has shown itself as strong as the USA).
Being right (pro-ban imo) doesn't do anything for the health of this dying game at this point.

Also ICs and Olimar as still mind numbing boring characters to fight.

 

[Keitaro]

At SRT, a first happened. players from the US went to a Japanese tourney for pretty much the first time after APEX had proved the Japanese were all but unbeatable. and they performed amazingly, with Vinnie nearly taking the tournament in one of the most stacked tournaments to date. and all you MK haters can talk about is how broken MK is when it's been demonstrated in tournament after tournament that you can outplay an MK player and beat MK. the sad part is that vinnie could have won the tournament and you'd still be whining about MK!
if MK is that much of a problem then don't play the game. the players that are still playing Brawl today are not in it specifically for every aspect of the game without MK, or they'd have quit long ago.
i assure you that removing MK from the game doesn't suddenly make this game amazing. there are still polarized MUs, Olimar/ICs are still selectable and frustrating characters to fight, Snake still inexplicably weighs more than DDD, Charizard, Ganondorf, and Samus and lives forever, Ness/Lucas are still infinited by characters for no reason other than they are ness and lucas, DDD has chaingrabs that you can't do anything about, and even the bad characters have autocombos with no player interaction that add no depth to the game. no, removing MK is not the solution. it's the problem. alphazealot tried his hardest to get MK banned; he set up a panel of people to make a ruleset and filled it with people that are pro-ban. they left stages that have no business being legal on, MK or not, in hopes that MK's dominance would increase due to them and convince people that he is broken. he made it a smashboards policy to not sticky threads that didn't use the unity ruleset. he did just about ANYTHING he could to get the character banned, and it still failed. you want to know why? because the character isn't worth banning, and the community doesn't want him banned.

Amazing post, simply amazing.

 

[M@v]

Just going to state that I was always against the extra stages in the URC ruleset. Sadly we never got to this point, but I was throwing my support behind APEX stagelist at the time. As of now, I feel the 2 best rulsets are:

1.Mk legal, japanese stagelist
2.Mk banned, APEX stage list.

I think both are really good. APEX with mk is manageable, but I still think he gets too much power off of frigate/delfino/halberd, mainly frigate.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Strong bad is a good man. Not gonna say anything else in this thread anymore.

 

[Kel]

The reason this turned into a MK discussion is because after APEX, everyone was on a Japan hype saying "they are soooo much better than us! If we ban MK, we will never catch up! We cannot make our own rule set because they're better than us!" and now people accept the Japanese rule set like it is the right way to play.

This leads us to two points of discussion:
1) Japan is better than the US and we must play catch up.
2) MK is not as dominant if you take out Brinstar, Rainbow, etc. and force him to fight Ice Climbers on FD once per set (at least).


Now the results are in: Japan isn't destroying the US as once thought. Rain won this tournament, but the important thing to note is that Nietono and Ootori were beaten by non-Japanese. Rain has performed less than optimally at Apex both times, and random Japanese players have made it to the top 8 over the past two years. These mixed results should reveal that there is no single dominating player, and no single dominating region. These results being the most current of international tournaments will be scrutinized thoroughly, just as Apex was.

Now, look at the results. MK wins. Two MKs in the top 3. 2 ICs in the top 6. 4 MKs in the top 8. Marth and Falco also thrive on the basic stages- just not as well as ICs. This shows that it is NOT coincidence that MK is everywhere. He is like this at ALL tournaments; whether rainbow and brinstar and all other non flat + plat stages are banned or not.

MK is NOT a win button (most of the time). No one is saying that. They are saying he over-centralizes the game. MK has won over half the money of all tournaments. He is never disadvantaged enough to balance the game. This is an issue for more than half of the community, and it has been for 3 years. People are going to discuss this topic because you are on a DISCUSSION BOARD.

 

[Krystedez]

The only problem I have with Strong Bad's post: The community doesn't want him banned. What, are we ignoring the results of the poll, or the overwhelming clatter for pro-ban side being pretty much the same amount of that result? How about all the evidence that a lot of the pro-ban side is backed by?

Anyways, I never liked taking a side for this issue, originally I had cared less, then I said sure, why not, ban him, so that we can at least have pleasant Doubles events, and then I said, ****, why not just ban him for doubles only? Singles he isn't that much of a problem to me personally, and on the whole issue of right or wrong, I don't believe there is a wrong or right way of interpreting Metaknight's dominance. It's just that. Up for interpretation. It just so happens that more than half of the community has for the longest time interpreted the results and mayhem Metaknight has caused for the metagame as being lethal to the health or overall enjoyment of this game.

I'm just waiting for Smash 4 atm, I don't really care if he is banned at any events I go to, but it's just something to keep in mind, and people really shouldn't insult each other over this issue.

 

[Tesh]

He also said stupid things like the URC being stacked with pro-bans, when it was stacked with every major TO in the country (except strife?). Maybe being a major TO just makes the choice obvious when you have seen things go down the same way over and over.

The only stage the URC sort of "forced" into the metagame was PS2. If they had suggested Japanese ruleset before Apex, everyone would have scoffed at the idea of playing on 3 stages anyway.

 

[GOofyGV]

if mk would be banned his spot would be taken by like 8 other characters at max.
then IC's,Olimar,Snake,Diddy,Falco,Marth,Pikachu and wario would dominate the game which stil ldoesn't solve any problems for a lot of the other characters.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

After watching the Whobo stream and seeing Ike and Ness placing really high i'm just going to call bullcrap on that one lol.

 

[Krystedez]

Even if that was the case, I would very much appreciate seeing a NUMBER of good characters dominating, rather than just one.

Melee comes to mind.

 

[Tesh]

and

k got it

 

[GOofyGV]

well I am a mk main so if I defend him it would be kinda lame lol

 

[Eddie G]

You're not doing a very good job of beating around the bush either, Goofy.

I go to both legal or ban events, it doesn't matter much to me in that regard.

From a viewer's perspective - I enjoy seeing a lot of diversity (which is what WHOBO 4 had a good dose of). The SRT stream was enjoyable to an extent as well, but to be completely honest...if not for the fact that Vinnie, M2K, Havok, and Quiksilver were all there representing their countries, it would have been one of the most boring events I ever would have watched because of the sheer amount of MK vs IC/Olimar/Wario/Snake on FD/SV/BF that went on. With WHOBO 4, I got to see Ike and Sonic almost take out two of the strongest players in the country in doubles, a bunch of ZSS, DK, Peach, Wolf, Toon Link, and low/mid tiers in general play as well as the usual top/high tiers, a Ness kicking absolute ***, simply a mixed bag of a bunch of exciting things. Just personal preference...but yeah.

 

[_Kain_]

I can't believe you guys are still beating at a deadhorse, you guys argue like kids. Just host your MK legal and banned events and whoever goes goes, stop trying to cut the community in 2. Both sides are too opinionated to ever change there stance so stfu already lmfao

 

[Luigi player]

You're not doing a very good job of beating around the bush either, Goofy.

I go to both legal or ban events, it doesn't matter much to me in that regard.

From a viewer's perspective - I enjoy seeing a lot of diversity (which is what WHOBO 4 had a good dose of). The SRT stream was enjoyable to an extent as well, but to be completely honest...if not for the fact that Vinnie, M2K, Havok, and Quiksilver were all there representing their countries, it would have been one of the most boring events I ever would have watched because of the sheer amount of MK vs IC/Olimar/Wario/Snake on FD/SV/BF that went on. With WHOBO 4, I got to see Ike and Sonic almost take out two of the strongest players in the country in doubles, a bunch of ZSS, DK, Peach, Wolf, Toon Link, and low/mid tiers in general play as well as the usual top/high tiers, a Ness kicking absolute ***, simply a mixed bag of a bunch of exciting things. Just personal preference...but yeah.

Shaky and Fow kick *** in MK legal events too tho.

 

[MegaRobMan]

Damn, I love this thread.

Hey, Gheb, have you ever played Kryz? Malcom? Reflex? Gluttony? Bpow? Blue Rogue? etc?

Good **** Bpow for making the All-World Wario team.

 

[sneakytako]

I can't believe you guys are still beating at a deadhorse, you guys argue like kids. Just host your MK legal and banned events and whoever goes goes, stop trying to cut the community in 2. Both sides are too opinionated to ever change there stance so stfu already lmfao

IDK where you live, but I can't remember the last time I saw kids having spreadsheets to decide who is the best at kickball.

 

[Luigi player]

Good **** Bpow for making the All-World Wario team.

Abadangoooo

 

[Eddie G]

"Abadango" makes me think of "dingleberry" in the weirdest, most abstract way possible.

 

[Djent]

Well Abadingle is an amazing player no matter how disgusting his name is.

 

[Juushichi]

IDK where you live, but I can't remember the last time I saw kids having spreadsheets to decide who is the best at kickball.

But Tako. Only one of those kids has a spreadsheet. The other is gloating about how good they are at kickball and saying that they should have their rules because they are the best at kickball. I think kids should just play kickball, maybe. There is only a few more years left before they have no business playing kickball anyway. Move on to a real man's sport/game, imo.

But **** that other kid, that kid is an *******.

 

[xDD-Master]

From a viewer's perspective - I enjoy seeing a lot of diversity (which is what WHOBO 4 had a good dose of). The SRT stream was enjoyable to an extent as well, but to be completely honest...if not for the fact that Vinnie, M2K, Havok, and Quiksilver were all there representing their countries, it would have been one of the most boring events I ever would have watched because of the sheer amount of MK vs IC/Olimar/Wario/Snake on FD/SV/BF that went on. With WHOBO 4, I got to see Ike and Sonic almost take out two of the strongest players in the country in doubles, a bunch of ZSS, DK, Peach, Wolf, Toon Link, and low/mid tiers in general play as well as the usual top/high tiers, a Ness kicking absolute ***, simply a mixed bag of a bunch of exciting things. Just personal preference...but yeah.

But its no surprise that you will see more diversity if you ban a character that is played by 1/3 of the Community (or something like that).

It could be 50% of all people playing ganondorf, and you WOULD see more characters being played if you ban ganondorf. Its just that no character beside MK is played THAT much.

So seeing more different characters at MK banned events has not directly to do with MK being good, but more with him being played that much, that whenever there is a MK-legal event you will see a lot of MKs, more than any other character, and if you ban him either the MKs wont attend, or they have to take other characters, which will even more increase the use of different characters.

But sure, I can understand what you mean, I also liked to watch the WHOBO4 Stream a lot, due to many interesting Match-Ups that you dont see that often with all the MKs around (Because then its mostly MK vs XYZ or MK vs MK)

 

[etecoon]

I can't believe you guys are still beating at a deadhorse, you guys argue like kids. Just host your MK legal and banned events and whoever goes goes, stop trying to cut the community in 2. Both sides are too opinionated to ever change there stance so stfu already lmfao

this

"live and let live", such a hard concept for this community to grasp. just pragmatically it doesn't make sense to do it any other way, if you want to force everyone to play by your rules, what is your plan for topping AZ's takeover? are you going to get MLG and neal to just completely disallow people from advertising tournaments that don't follow unity 2.0? at this point message boards like this are becoming less and less important as it is, I don't know if even that would give you the power necessary to get everyone to obey

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I remember when I was in the URC. It was really cool at first because it had the potential to grow into something awesome. But politics and pre-mature decisions hindered the overall potential of the group and we all know what happened from there. It sucks though because it left this divide in the community.

(For the record, I only run MK legal events but I support both)

People really need to stop derailing every Metaknight legal results thread though. We have been through this so many times. We've heard all the arguments for both sides already and nothing changes in the grand scheme of things. People just need to respect each other and leave it at that. It's sad when results threads contain a comparable number of MK related posts compared to "Hey ____ good **** for placing so high" or "Great job for running a successful event". I mean if anything people should just take this to another subforum or something. At least then these threads can serve their intended purpose.

But it's just getting old now reading these same posts over and over again. I don't see why we can't have both types of events without either side thinking that they're the ultimate authority on how the metagame should progress.

People aren't just leaving because of Metaknight. People are leaving because so many others are spending too much time being dbags to each other and not putting their energy in the right place. If you all of you who spend so much time arguing with each other spent even half of that energy actually getting better, things could be completely different.

tl;dr: What Kain said.