Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar should both be banned

[Grim Tuesday]

JEBUS YOU ****ING ******** IDIOT YOU ARE SO WRONG WHAT THE ****

So... I don't think RC and Brinstar should be banned because there is no reason to.

This thread is soooooo interesting...

 

[Arcansi]

JEBUS YOU ****ING ******** IDIOT YOU ARE SO WRONG WHAT THE ****

So... I don't think RC and Brinstar should be banned because there is no reason to.

This thread is soooooo interesting...

Is a provable 4:00 timer on RC in 99% of matches enough to ban it?

(Prepare for Discussion!)

 

[Player-1]

but it's not proven and I already proved you wrong on it...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Only bad characters and inexperienced players get completely ***** by MK on Cruise.

This really is just a case of "LEARN THE STAGE". It's not like Brinstar where Meta Knight suddenly becomes massively safer by playing properly, he just gets more space to aid his maneuverability.

All of the viable characters and several unviable characters can still traverse RC and box Meta Knight in on the rising part, and it's very easy to catch him on the horizontal part. If you constantly pressure MK on the boat part while he is planking, he'll use his ledge-grabs up pretty quickly as well, lol.

I know this because the same argument was made for Fox in Melee. Yet, I learnt this stage from watching lots of matches of Wobbles playing here and my own theory-crafting + practicing, and it is now one of my favourite stages. With Ice Climbers. The characters who are notorious for being bad on counterpick stages.

Long story short: The huge abundance of moving platforms gives both players so many options that they CAN catch each other in almost all situations.

 

[Arcansi]

but it's not proven and I already proved you wrong on it...

Checked basically the whole thread, these were the only instances I found of you proving me wrong, so I'll refute them and get this going.

It's not 4:00-4:30 it's an 8 minute timer MK can plank and scrooge all he wants, but you still have time to hit him during it so no it's not like a 4:00-4:30 timer or anything like it.

Aside from a technique nobody can be relied on to preform consistenly (and has BIG reprecussions if you miss it.) there is no way to punish MK planking perfectly for most of the cast, and if he is doing it with a dose of common sense, you likely won't punish him with anyone.

Ok, where exactly in MK scrooging the boat do I have the time to fall into him, and hit him with a safe move while not telegraphing myself so that he does whatever ledge trick he wants to get back instead of gliding?

The reason I said "not necessarily" is because if MK is still planking and scrooging right then you can still hit him especially with characters that have projectiles since 2/3rds of the stage doesn't have any good ledges to grab onto for planking/sharking, he's still vulnerable...read him....then hit him...just like you do on any other stage, it may be slightly more difficult on RC, but not impossible.

Scrooging is immune to projectiles because it is under you.

Actually, half the stage has an area where MK can stay and basically be immune to projectiles (first cave is situational but usually works for atleast 8 seconds.)

Half the stage being like that is kinda my argument.

This really is just a case of "LEARN THE STAGE". It's not like Brinstar where Meta Knight suddenly becomes massively safer by playing properly, he just gets more space to aid his maneuverability.

Scrooging is not safe? Hiding in a C shape that forces you to go right above metaknight (with little options) and then come approach him with very few options isn't safe?

All of the viable characters and several unviable characters can still traverse RC and box Meta Knight in on the rising part, and it's very easy to catch him on the horizontal part. If you constantly pressure MK on the boat part while he is planking, he'll use his ledge-grabs up pretty quickly as well, lol.

MK has 35 Ledgegrabs to use. Assuming he uses a total of 0 on the whole other stage (it's ledgeless) he has 35 to use. 35/4 = 8 with 3 remaining.

He can go back and forth 4 times, or one direction 8, per ship appearance.

This means he needs to make each pass last about 3.75 seconds each, including ledge invulnerability.

Not hard at all, and this means you are pressuring him 100% of the time (and making yourself vulnerable and likely losing the encounter overall).

Long story short: The huge abundance of moving platforms gives both players so many options that they CAN catch each other in almost all situations.

1. The Boat.

2. The two C shaped caves.

All the situations I'm arguing.

 

[Player-1]

Aside from a technique nobody can be relied on to preform consistenly (and has BIG reprecussions if you miss it.) there is no way to punish MK planking perfectly for most of the cast, and if he is doing it with a dose of common sense, you likely won't punish him with anyone.

That goes for any stage though, especially stages like smashville. I guess we should just ban smashville or better yet ban MK. I also guess we should ban Ice Climbers and Diddy since when they play perfectly they have an infinite against the whole cast (aside from squirtle and luigi for Diddy). We should also ban PS1 because PS1 typically has like 4-5 minutes of play time depending on the stage transformations right?

Ok, where exactly in MK scrooging the boat do I have the time to fall into him, and hit him with a safe move while not telegraphing myself so that he does whatever ledge trick he wants to get back instead of gliding?

Arced projectile: Peanuts, bananas, turnips, nakita, c4, grenades, pit's arrows, bombs, boomerangs, arrows, ice blocks, mario's fireballs, pk thunder, pk freeze, etc etc, can all hit MK.

Scrooging is immune to projectiles because it is under you.

Not when the projectiles go/hit under you

Actually, half the stage has an area where MK can stay and basically be immune to projectiles (first cave is situational but usually works for atleast 8 seconds.)

Half the stage being like that is kinda my argument.

...but...half the stage isn't like that...?[/QUOTE]

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Stuff.

Equally as bad as Smashville.

In fact, it's worse for MK than Smashville because he loses ledges 1/2 of the time.

 

[Arcansi]

I see where this is going, so I'll just go meh and stop it here.


However, it is VERY worth noting that none of you truly refuted my points, just said that it isn't an RC only problem.

 

[Ghostbone]

However, it is VERY worth noting that none of you truly refuted my points, just said that it isn't an RC only problem.

Same thing.
Otherwise we should ban smashville as well.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I see where this is going, so I'll just go meh and stop it here.


However, it is VERY worth noting that none of you truly refuted my points, just said that it isn't an RC only problem.

Yes, but lemme just say that if it's a problem shared by SV and PS1, two widely considered starters, it's probably not a real problem. Again, I'm still looking for proof in high-level play. The theory is there (and pretty faulty, as we've argued) but not the practice, and attempts to prove it have shown to fail.

There was M2K vs. Dabuz, where G2 Dabuz got JV2stocked with 30 seconds remaining... But then M2K pulled the exact same **** on Yoshi's Island, one of Olimar's better stages.

There was M2K vs. Bizkit, where a snake lost G2 on RC with a margin of about 30% constant throughout the match; 30% which could've been regained with one single tech chase. Incredibly close match, in other words; and then M2K beat him on Smashville too.

There was M2K vs. Gnes, but M2K timed Gnes out G3 on SV in a similar manner, so it seems like a moot point.

There was M2K vs. Broodstar, but Olimar is such a horrible character on RC that we really should ignore that; it'd be like taking ICs as an example of why Norfair is broken; it's an unfairly polarized matchup (even when compared to the others).

There was Inui vs. Dr. Grandpa, but in that match Inui 3-stocked him in 2 minutes, Dr. G showed very little competence on the stage, and that doesn't necessarily say much about timing out.

So come on, where's that video evidence?

 

[theunabletable]

Equally as bad as Smashville.

In fact, it's worse for MK than Smashville because he loses ledges 1/2 of the time.

okay no

There was M2K vs. Dabuz, where G2 Dabuz got JV2stocked with 30 seconds remaining... But then M2K pulled the exact same **** on Yoshi's Island, one of Olimar's better stages.

I wanna point out something dabuz himself pointed out. Getting timed out in that manner can be so demotivational that you can't even really play the next game as well as you would have if you'd just lost the RC match in a normal manner.

There was M2K vs. Bizkit, where a snake lost G2 on RC with a margin of about 30% constant throughout the match; 30% which could've been regained with one single tech chase.

how do you grab someone who's under you?

Don't have anymore time to say anything, but frankly not many matches of RC being played gay are recorded, and you have to take note that they're incredibly boring, and that lowers the chance of them being picked to be uploaded by someone

 

[WindMajor]

okay no

I wanna point out something dabuz himself pointed out. Getting timed out in that manner can be so demotivational that you can't even really play the next game as well as you would have if you'd just lost the RC match in a normal manner.

That doesn't really help then pro-ban cause though. Tell him to pull himself together, focus, and don't let his emotions get the best of him. It's demotivational, yes, but so is any ol' gimp or SD. We just have to deal with it and move forward. No time to cry over spilled milk.

Don't have anymore time to say anything, but frankly not many matches of RC being played gay are recorded, and you have to take note that they're incredibly boring, and that lowers the chance of them being picked to be uploaded by someone

Making excuses doesn't really matter either. If there's not enough evidence to make the case, then find more evidence or drop the case. I'm sure there is more though, and I know you're short on time, so w/e do it when you can.

Just felt like typing.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I wanna point out something dabuz himself pointed out. Getting timed out in that manner can be so demotivational that you can't even really play the next game as well as you would have if you'd just lost the RC match in a normal manner.

So? It's up to the player to get better and not be so driven by his emotions. Demotivating or not, Dabuz losing G3 was entirely his fault. Players can have a humiliating game every once in a while. FFS, Poongko perfected Daigo one round at Evo; did Daigo lose his cool? No, he just kept playing. This is no excuse.

how do you grab someone who's under you?

Completely beside the point; the point was, M2K was one or two hits away from losing. It was close, and not in an "M2K was untouchable but didn't land many hits" kinda way but rather an "M2K was on his last stock" kinda way. We've been over this.

Don't have anymore time to say anything, but frankly not many matches of RC being played gay are recorded, and you have to take note that they're incredibly boring, and that lowers the chance of them being picked to be uploaded by someone

Doesn't matter; if it's so clearly broken there should damn well be at least one clear-cut match that shows it! Something like MLG Orlando Ally vs. M2K for Brinstar.

 

[theunabletable]

Completely beside the point; the point was, M2K was one or two hits away from losing. It was close, and not in an "M2K was untouchable but didn't land many hits" kinda way but rather an "M2K was on his last stock" kinda way. We've been over this.

Been over this doesn't mean settle this. w/e this one isn't going anywhere

So? It's up to the player to get better and not be so driven by his emotions. Demotivating or not, Dabuz losing G3 was entirely his fault. Players can have a humiliating game every once in a while. FFS, Poongko perfected Daigo one round at Evo; did Daigo lose his cool? No, he just kept playing. This is no excuse.

Yeah Dabuz isn't a top 5 player or anything. Yeah it's possible to not get motivated.

I'm just saying that when you go "Look, M2K won game 3 on Olimar's counterpick, so M2K was outplaying him anyways", that's a really shortsighted way of looking at things. Maybe you acknowledge that being demotivated by something sooo gay effects your performance in the next game.

Yeah M2K ended up doing better in the set, but we DO have to take into account all the factors before we say "M2K outskilled him anyways in the whole set, which means that he outskilled him on RC".

Doesn't matter; if it's so clearly broken there should damn well be at least one clear-cut match that shows it! Something like MLG Orlando Ally vs. M2K for Brinstar.

I'm gonna point out one thing that's rather semantics-ish but is kind of important anyways.

Saying "Doesn't matter" is both ignorant, and shortsighted. EVERYTHING matters to some extent, and saying that something doesn't matter breeds the wrong mindset.

The fact that fewer RC matches may be recorded is an important thing to take note of. It matters to some, definite extent, because it lowers the chance of a gay RC match being recorded.

We should rarely ever say any piece of evidence, or relevant thought "doesn't matter". Not only is it disrespectful to the concepts that the other person has spoken off, but it can lead to ignorance.

If fewer RC gay matches are recorded it CLEARLY matters to some extent if the debate is trying to find a gay match.

Hell there might be matches that show the exact qualities I'm looking for. I don't know them, though, because I haven't looked, and I wouldn't know where to start, along with, well, it being BORING AS **** to do.

There are more factors to take into account apart from boredom making a match hard to find, or tedious to upload, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

And on the "it's clearly broken, so there must be an uploaded match of it". I've never seen a match uploaded of a Sonic circle camping perfectly and not getting hit by someone on Temple. I've never seen a match of someone abusing Hanenbow. I've never seen a match of someone showing the problems with Mario Circuit. I've never seen a match of someone exhibiting why Onett is bad.

I can't explain exactly why it is that it's tough to find matches of REALLY gay ****, but it seems to be a common trait among broken stuff. It doesn't mean that the stage isn't broken. Temple is broken, but there aren't any Brawl matches showing that without a doubt.

And, yes, it's not 100% impossible to beat someone on RC. It's just very difficult to do so if the MK is playing really gay. Significantly more difficult than on every other stage except Brinstar potentially.

Bizkit did some amazing things that match, and still lost by, effectively, 60% (the last 30% dealt was in the last 5 seconds of the match when it didn't matter at all what damage was done).

With all of these factors taken into account, it's not completely unreasonable to say that there's not any matches of RC being shown to be REALLY gay (although there might be. I don't even really know, because I tend to avoid RC matches as they aren't enjoyable to watch at all (which should also be a contributing factor in if we should ban it or not)).

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I don't think these stages should be banned. They are not so bad once you really practice on them. I think that if we add more stages and an extra stage ban, there wouldn't really be a problem with these stages.

 

[Akaku94]

methinks someone hacked Jebus' account... or else we've done such a good job arguing that we've won him over and completely changed his writing syle...

 

[SaveMeJebus]

methinks someone hacked Jebus' account... or else we've done such a good job arguing that we've won him over and completely changed his writing syle...

No. It's just that the whole MK ban argument has got me thinking that I'm no different from any of those people if I am arguing to get these stages banned. There really isn't anything wrong with these stages once you learn how to play on them. Banning anything that isn't broken is just trying to take the easy way out

 

[_Kadaj_]

RedHalberd knows.

Both should definitely be banned

 

[Player-1]

kadaj is just bad

 

[_Kadaj_]

Obviously!

I'm the worst.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Kadaj knows!

And you don't get into an argument with Jebus. You won't win, or it won't end, whichever comes first.

I don't really think these stages are fundamentally competitive though with or without metaknight

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It'd be good if you could provide some logical backing for that.

Unless some random kid from the street can beat a player who knows what they are doing on these stages, I'd say they are fundamentally competitive.

 

[Akaku94]

^I'm pretty sure a kid off the street couldn't beat a player who knows what they're doing on Warioware, but that doesn't mean it should be legal.

However, he is right that you have given absolutely no evidence or logic. The biggest problem with these arguments is that people just assume that certain things make a stage unviable, like stage movement or hazards. In reality, that's the norm for Brawl, and unless the stage overcentralizes, there is no reason to ban it. I think we've banned too many already, and we haven't even considered custom stages seriously yet. The default answer for any stage someone doesn't like is "ban it," regardless of whether or not the stage has anything really wrong with it. RC and Brinstar are the perfect examples of this. MK being good somewhere isn't criteria for a ban, or else we would have no stages left.

 

[-LzR-]

No. It's just that the whole MK ban argument has got me thinking that I'm no different from any of those people if I am arguing to get these stages banned. There really isn't anything wrong with these stages once you learn how to play on them. Banning anything that isn't broken is just trying to take the easy way out

I could easily link at least 30 posts where you said the exact same thing without backing it up with any facts at all. >_>

 

[SaveMeJebus]

It'd be good if you could provide some logical backing for that.

Unless some random kid from the street can beat a player who knows what they are doing on these stages, I'd say they are fundamentally competitive.

Then you can't be pro MK ban if you think that way

 

[_Kadaj_]

I've had about 2-3 threads devoted to backing both of the stages being banned lol

 

[| Big D |]

Ok, I am going to shed some light on the situation. There is a problem with both Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise, but it is not what you may think. The root of this lies deep within our established meta game and Sakurai's intentions with our community.

Now we could look at game play elements, but where will that take us? We could argue about it's different gameplay mechanics. Which would lead to what is the norm. Another discussion. We could argue about how MK would get a huge advantage. We could argue whether this is true. We could argue that that isn't a reason to ban the stage. We could argue that these stages nerf grounded characters, or we could argue that neutrals buff grounded characters. We could argue about each individual problem and how it affects game play in a positive or negative manner. In this case, it's about perception.

What does perception have to do with anything? Well in order to truly understand, we have to look at the history. Lets look at rainbow cruise. Rainbow cruise was level 15 in Super Mario 64. Was remade in brawl and Super Mario 64 DS. This level was seen as a different kind of level. No central area, basically a huge obstacle course. This level was used in many challenges, routes, and the SM64 quiz. It's not perceived to be bad but why in Brawl?

Lets look at Brinstar. It is an area in the Metroid series. It is present in many Metroid games. If people hated Brinstar it wouldn't return?

Well first, we have to look at splitting/bracket manipulation. Why do we have a rule against it? Many argue so people can't screw other players trying to advance in bracket. Many argue it makes it for a boring to watch finals. If you found out this happened in another major organization, ratings would go down. It kills excitement and interest.

So there is a rule in the rule set dedicated to having an exciting series of matches. Now, how exciting is timing someone out on RC? Constant sharking on Brinstar? Why are there not many recorded time outs? Perhaps it's not exciting to watch, but perhaps it determines skill and the way to win this game. It allows for people who are willing to do whatever it takes to win. But is this an acceptable way to win? It is argued the only reason there is a timer is because tournaments need to finish on time. So if this artificial way to win, is it really fair to abuse it? Now lets look at our rule set. Does it favour certain characters? Is it fair to allow infinites? How about our stage selection? Counter pick system? Is it fair? Does it determined the more skilled individual? This is the future of our meta game.

Sakurai made sure this game would be anti competitive. A very defensive oriented game. Along with his favorite character MK. Lets talk about MK because I believe he is the root of many discussions. MK is argued to be over powered. It is argued he is not. It is argued a meta game with out MK would be better and deeper. It is argued a meta game with only MK would be better. But nobody knows anything. Nobody can convince anybody of anything in matter of opinion and perception. I'm not going to convince anybody of anything.

Now that you have seen my views on this it's time to share my conclusion. Since their are discussions everywhere and nobody can prove anything here. I have viewed many posts saying "we proved that already" and "no you didn't" there is only one logical thing to do according to our humanist society.

Since nothing makes sense, we should ban everyone except Ganondorf. That way, we will find the most skilled individual and our rule set/CP system won't interfere. I expect the BBR-RC to get on this immediately.

Spoiler

NOBODY BETTER TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY. I DON'T WANT THIS WHOLE THING TO BE DISSECTED AND TO BE VIEWED AS CRAZY

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Then you can't be pro MK ban if you think that way

Meta Knight is uncompetitive because once he gets the lead he is basically untouchable.

And my example was an exaggeration, all I meant to say was that "uncompetitive" would imply that it can't foster competition, which would only apply if there was no learning curve or skill gap due to simplicity (a la naughts and crosses).

That's why I hate when people say something is uncompetitive instead of janky or what have you.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Meta Knight is uncompetitive because once he gets the lead he is basically untouchable.

And my example was an exaggeration, all I meant to say was that "uncompetitive" would imply that it can't foster competition, which would only apply if there was no learning curve or skill gap due to simplicity (a la naughts and crosses).

That's why I hate when people say something is uncompetitive instead of janky or what have you.

That's not true as long as there is a LGL. He also always has to approach in the beginning because he has no projectile unless his opponent also has no projectile

 

[Grim Tuesday]

But there shouldn't be a ledge-grab limit, as I have explained 1000 ****ing times before. It introduces sooooo many double standards and is the complete opposite of what we have done when banning things in the past.

He still has to get the lead, but getting the lead isn't hard, lol... I could land the first hit on M2K but that doesn't make me better than him, with MK, first hit = win.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

But there is a LGL in the rule set. MK isn't broken with a LGL. If fist hit would = win for MK, you would see players like Razor, ADHD and DEHF lose to random MK mains.

 

[theunabletable]

But there shouldn't be a ledge-grab limit, as I have explained 1000 ****ing times before. It introduces sooooo many double standards and is the complete opposite of what we have done when banning things in the past.

I guess if "better" to you means more fair in your eyes, in exchange for actually having competitive tournaments, then you might be right.

 

[Shockna]

But there is a LGL in the rule set. MK isn't broken with a LGL. If fist hit would = win for MK, you would see players like Razor, ADHD and DEHF lose to random MK mains.

Really, this seems more to be an issue of patience than it does actual possibility. MK could just hit once and then run the whole time, but under the kind of pressure playing someone like Razor, ADHD or DEHF often creates (Among randoms, anyway), how many would have the patience and the nerve to run the full 8 minutes?

 

[Kewkky]

But there is a LGL in the rule set. MK isn't broken with a LGL. If fist hit would = win for MK, you would see players like Razor, ADHD and DEHF lose to random MK mains.

It's not that it isn't a broken strategy, it's that it's broken BUT people can't do it right. If you randomly pick up MK, hit ADHD once, then go and start planking, you're probably gonna get hit out of your planking. You don't know how to use MK well enough to know how far his attacks reach, where your attacks send your opponent if you hit them, how to properly capitalize on opponents' mistakes if they try to stop your planking... Plus, random players don't have the reaction speed to follow their top player opponents with their decision-making. ADHD might do some nifty mindgame on the ledge while the random is planking, and the random might fall for it and get stagespiked, making him lose the lead.

It's a strategy that's too good, but it doesn't mean it's an insta-win for the entire community.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Both of these stages are literally just gimmicks to give Metaknight free wins. Almost nobody else uses them. You can argue that they help other characters, but there are PLENTY of stages that help those characters. And the characters that these stages help still get ***** by Metaknight on these stages anyway.

Nobody likes watching Metaknight win on either of these stages.

Nobody likes playing against Metaknight on either of these stages.

The worst part about these stages is that you get free timeouts that no sort of ledgegrab rule can mitigate. I've timed people out with less than 15 ledgegrabs on both stages. I got a stock lead on Gnes at WHOBO and literally just ran away until the timer was up. I had like 17 ledgegrabs or something.

There's no reason for these stages to be legal anymore. If you're pro ban and you like seeing Metaknight be gay because you think it'll help ban him, get over yourself because as pro ban as I am right now, he's probably not going to be banned anything more than temporarily unless some serious **** is going down in the BBR right now.

Give me a reason why these stages should be legal...

It sounds like you're complaining more about what MK does on the stage than the stage itself. Here's a suggestion ban MK.

 

[Makke]

................

 

[PieDisliker]

I really feel that having two bans is much better than banning those stages.

And if they do get banned, FD should at least be a cp.

 

[Makke]

....................

 

[Ghostbone]

Sv, Bf & YI together are probably the most balanced starters

No not really >.>
SV, Lylat, PS2 maybe.

 

[C.J.]

Lylat, CS, PS2