Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar should both be banned

[Katakiri]

Well it depends on how extreme the meteor is, if it's on a similar level to the bullet bills in Melee on Peach's Castle, it'd be ridiculous to ban smashville, if it did just cover the whole stage every 20 seconds though to the point that it's unavoidable and makes the game unplayable, then yes it should be banned.

But that has no relevance in our game, I can't really think of any hazard like that, which makes a stage bannable. (I guess the items on Mario Bros.?)

Spear Pillar instantly comes to mind though that stage had MANY other problems.
Wario Ware, Inc. comes to mind as well, but again, stage hazards were only one of the issues it had.
And thinking about it, Mario Circuit is like that as well, but yet again, it's not the only think wrong with the stage.

 

[Ghostbone]

Spear Pillar instantly comes to mind though that stage had MANY other problems.
Wario Ware, Inc. comes to mind as well, but again, stage hazards were only one of the issues it had.
And thinking about it, Mario Circuit is like that as well, but yet again, it's not the only think wrong with the stage.

Wario Ware is more banned due to the randomness than the actual severity of the rewards.

Spear Pillar, maybe, with Cresselia the hazards are really intrusive but Dialga and Palkia are fine.

Mario Circuit's hazards aren't even close to being a problem >.>

 

[Kewkky]

Severity of the rewards? Hmm..

stage: POP IT!
*both players scramble to pop the things and succeed*
*one player gets star, other player gets mushroom and is now juggle food*

 

[John12346]

Real talk, I would be arguing for WarioWare's legality as a CP stage if the rewards weren't random, or at were at least tame, like 5% healing everytime or something.

Like Spear Pillar, WarioWare's hazards are completely tame and easy to avoid; it's just wrecked by those frikkin' unbalanced, random rewards... >___>;

 

[Kewkky]

Real talk, I would be arguing for WarioWare's legality as a CP stage if the rewards weren't random, or at were at least tame, like 5% healing everytime or something.

Like Spear Pillar, WarioWare's hazards are completely tame and easy to avoid; it's just wrecked by those frikkin' unbalanced, random rewards... >___>;

I agree, but WarioWare's hazards are MUUUUCH easier to get used to and avoid than Spear Pillar's. Learning how to play your character as if you had your controller upside-down or mirrored (depending on the current effect) is dramatically harder than jumping when the screen says "JUMP!". Too bad, the layout would make for a very interesting stage... No other stage has platforms like that only at the ledges.

 

[John12346]

Okay, first off, the screen flip/180 degree rotations do not change the inputs for your controls; your character will still move in the same directions and perform the same moves as if the screen was unchanged.

And secondly, it really doesn't take that long to get used to the screen changes, it legit took me only two or three matches to learn how to play with that influence.

 

[Kewkky]

Okay, first off, the screen flip/180 degree rotations do not change the inputs for your controls; your character will still move in the same directions and perform the same moves as if the screen was unchanged.

You put your controller in front of the screen. The stage flips 180 degrees. You tilt your control stick to the left. From your perspective, where does your character run? Not to the left if that's what you're thinking, your character runs towards the right side of the screen. Does this happen when the stage is unchanged? Nope, tilting left makes your character run towards the left side of the screen.

It wasn't that hard to understand, man, seriously. Not hard to understand at all.

And secondly, it really doesn't take that long to get used to the screen changes, it legit took me only two or three matches to learn how to play with that influence.

1) Your experiences aren't the same as everyone's.
2) So you could do everything you can do right now in a normal stage while the stage was flipped/mirrored, no problem with no mistakes because it's flipped/mirrored? Mind you, mistakes could lead you to some damage and the loss of a lead.
3) I don't think you know how to maintain control as the stage flips/mirrors/changes back to normal. As you're stringing something together, having the stage flip/mirror would **** you up worse than any of WarioWare's things, hands down. Could you imagine someone recovering and as they're about to upB the stage mirrors? I would laugh out loud right there as they died and raged.

Like I said, more difficult than WarioWare.

 

[ぱみゅ]

You put your controller in front of the screen. The stage flips 180 degrees. You flip your controller 180 degrees. And now they match. Good try.


And it might be confusing at the beginning, but is not hard to get used to those mechanics.

 

[Tesh]

For WarioWare, I'd still argue against legality if the minigames had a set prize. They still occur at random times and its just like picto how the ledge can just disappear. I'd hate to be recovering as....almost anybody and suddenly not have a ledge with no warning.

Sometimes the little things still ruin a stage.

 

[ぱみゅ]

No, ledge still there while recovering, it just moves down.
You can snap it while it is under the "regular" level and you MUST jump out of it.

 

[Kewkky]

You put your controller in front of the screen. The stage flips 180 degrees. You flip your controller 180 degrees. And now they match. Good try.

Uhhh... Isn't that exactly what I said?

Learning how to play your character as if you had your controller upside-down or mirrored (depending on the current effect) is dramatically harder than jumping when the screen says "JUMP!".

But then he said I was wrong:

Okay, first off, the screen flip/180 degree rotations do not change the inputs for your controls; your character will still move in the same directions and perform the same moves as if the screen was unchanged.

So, "Good try" to him or me?

Cuz if it's me, I'll just take it as someone jumping in to try to make me look bad for no real reason.

No, ledge still there while recovering, it just moves down.
You can snap it while it is under the "regular" level and you MUST jump out of it.

Easier said than done.

I'm knocked away from my opponent. Recovering high means damage, but recovering low seems safe!
*Recovers low, starts aiming for the ledge*
*stage starts to change and ledge lowers, and I grab it*
*after twenty-something frames of not being able to let go of the ledge, i'm now too low to recover*
Me:

 

[Ghostbone]

You put your controller in front of the screen. The stage flips 180 degrees. You tilt your control stick to the left. From your perspective, where does your character run? Not to the left if that's what you're thinking, your character runs towards the right side of the screen. Does this happen when the stage is unchanged? Nope, tilting left makes your character run towards the left side of the screen.

It wasn't that hard to understand, man, seriously. Not hard to understand at all.

1) Your experiences aren't the same as everyone's.
2) So you could do everything you can do right now in a normal stage while the stage was flipped/mirrored, no problem with no mistakes because it's flipped/mirrored? Mind you, mistakes could lead you to some damage and the loss of a lead.
3) I don't think you know how to maintain control as the stage flips/mirrors/changes back to normal. As you're stringing something together, having the stage flip/mirror would **** you up worse than any of WarioWare's things, hands down. Could you imagine someone recovering and as they're about to upB the stage mirrors? I would laugh out loud right there as they died and raged.

Like I said, more difficult than WarioWare.

It's pretty easy to get over it in my experience.
What I do is visualise the stage the right side up, and judge where your character is based on their position on the stage. So in my head I'm still playing with the stage the correct way around, and that's how I judge where to go.

I mean it's annoying but it's not that bad.

Plus we don't ban things because they're difficult....
They're not as biased towards characters as Wario Ware in any case.

 

[Kewkky]

It's pretty easy to get over it in my experience.
What I do is visualise the stage the right side up, and judge where your character is based on their position on the stage. So in my head I'm still playing with the stage the correct way around, and that's how I judge where to go.

I mean it's annoying but it's not that bad.

Like I said, it's way harder than avoiding a hazard by jumping when the stage says "JUMP!".

Learning how to play your character as if you had your controller upside-down or mirrored (depending on the current effect) is dramatically harder than jumping when the screen says "JUMP!".

Man, next time I'll just not say anything at all. Three extra posts because people are trying to read between the lines. >_>

 

[Ghostbone]

Like I said, it's way harder than avoiding a hazard by jumping when the stage says "JUMP!".

I completely disagree.

It tells you to jump, the thing doesn't come for a while, or it pops up and hits you even in your jump. (we are talking about the one where the car/burger/whatever it is drives past yea?)

So no matter what you do (unless you're like MK, and can stall forever and wait it out really high above the stage) there's a chance you will get hit.
When the screen on Spear Pillar flips, at least it's always flipped for a certain amount of time, and doesn't send you in a random direction whenever you move the control stick.

 

[Kewkky]

I completely disagree.

It tells you to jump, the thing doesn't come for a while, or it pops up and hits you even in your jump. (we are talking about the one where the car/burger/whatever it is drives past yea?)

Nope, I'm talking about the one with the giant in the background with the hammer about to hit the floor. The one with the "car thing" only shows a "!" sign pointing towards the left from what I remember.

Plus I have never ever had that problem, either. Everytime I jump it's super easy to avoid it. Unless you shorthop then of course it'll hit you! But a fullhop and doing a second jump if you feel you're going too low should take care of the problem. Hell, you could use your upB too if you're daring/your upB's one of the safe ones.

So no matter what you do there's a chance you will get hit.
When the screen on Spear Pillar flips, at least it's always flipped for a certain amount of time, and doesn't send you in a random direction whenever you move the control stick.

So you're saying that it's easier to play with reversed/upside-down inputs than to jump out of a hazard's way even if it has instructions and about 3 seconds for you to get ready.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Kewkky, is not that we do not want to understand what you're saying, your argument just happenned to be poor.
You described flip-over mechanics as it were too hard to do, nearly impossible to understand, we just said it was not.

Oh, and the car-thing says "Dodge".

 

[Ghostbone]

Nope, I'm talking about the one with the giant in the background with the hammer about to hit the floor. The one with the "car thing" only shows a "!" sign pointing towards the left from what I remember.

Oh that one, there's still the problem of, he'll delay his swing downwards (maybe not enough for some characters not to be able to stall it out).

Plus I have never ever had that problem, either. Everytime I jump it's super easy to avoid it. Unless you shorthop then of course it'll hit you! But a fullhop and doing a second jump if you feel you're going too low should take care of the problem. Hell, you could use your upB too if you're daring/your upB's one of the safe ones.

Play the stage more, it will randomly pop up like half the screen sometimes and it can delay itself a lot.

So you're saying that it's easier to play with reversed/upside-down inputs than to jump out of a hazard's way even if it has instructions and about 3 seconds for you to get ready.

Maybe not easier than a few of the Wario Ware transformations, but lets look at rain.
That's like impossible to avoid, I'd say it's much harder to avoid it then play with a screen that's turned around.

And in the end, the randomness of Wario Ware is a lot worse than the intrusiveness of Spear Pillar.

 

[Kewkky]

Kewkky, is not that we do not want to understand what you're saying, your argument just happenned to be poor.
You described flip-over mechanics as it were too hard to do, nearly impossible to understand, we just said it was not.

I didn't describe anything like that at all!

Look at it this way:

+ Avoiding a hammer pounding on the floor takes 0.001 amount of skill out of 100.
+ Getting used to inverted controls takes 0.1 amount of skill out of 100.

= Conclusion: Control inversion is 100 times more difficult than avoiding the hammer pound.

100 times more difficult = dramatically more difficult.

Oh that one, there's still the problem of, he'll delay his swing downwards (maybe not enough for every character to stall it out).

Dude, the giant's in clear view, nothing's blocking him! You jump when the giant pulls his arms up and you're guaranteed to evade it! Unless you're silly and try to shorthop it, and even then you still have a second jump to use. It's mind-boggingly easy to evade that. Even if the giant feints the pounding, you're still guaranteed to evade it what with having a midair jump!

Play the stage more, it will randomly pop up like half the screen sometimes and it can delay itself a lot.

No, I've played it enough. There's like 4 different cars all running at the same speed, some delayed more than the others, some stop for a small while then keep going (if you see this AND are still hit by it, you suck), one of them jumps... I know this stage man, it's one of the stages I love to play in when I'm goofing around with random because it's fun to me.

It is easy to avoid the hazards man, I don't know what else to say or how else to explain it. Taking a video of all the possible cars and pointing out how easy it is to avoid them should be enough, but it'd take too much time just to simply say "See? it's not hard at all!" when we're not even discussing its legality, just how easy/hard avoiding the cars is.

Maybe not easier than a few of the Wario Ware transformations, but lets look at rain.
That's like impossible to avoid, I'd say it's much harder to avoid it then play with a screen that's turned around.

The rain doesn't even do anything to imbalance the game. It just rains. Characters take very minor damage, I think it was like 1% every second or something? While the hazard lasted for about 3 seconds... You could even shield the rain if you wanted to.

And in the end, the randomness of Wario Ware is a lot worse than the intrusiveness of Spear Pillar.

Well duh, but I said that getting used to inverted controls is harder than avoiding the hazard I pointed up there. Geez, seriously.

 

[Ghostbone]

Dude, the giant's in clear view, nothing's blocking him! You jump when the giant pulls his arms up and you're guaranteed to evade it! Unless you're silly and try to shorthop it, and even then you still have a second jump to use. It's mind-boggingly easy to evade that. Even if the giant feints the pounding, you're still guaranteed to evade it what with having a midair jump!

Yea ok

No, I've played it enough. There's like 4 different cars all running at the same speed, some delayed more than the others, some stop for a small while then keep going (if you see this AND are still hit by it, you suck), one of them jumps... I know this stage man, it's one of the stages I love to play in when I'm goofing around with random because it's fun to me.

You said that every time you jump it's easy to avoid.
Which is untrue as they can stall themselves, and jump, so for some characters, there's no way to have a 100% chance of avoiding all of them, because you don't know what it will do.

The rain doesn't even do anything to imbalance the game. It just rains. Characters take very minor damage, I think it was like 1% every second or something? While the hazard lasted for about 3 seconds... You could even shield the rain if you wanted to.

Pretty sure rain goes through shields.
Oh and while you're getting rained on your opponent is under the umbrella and then he gets a star when it ends.
Naa doesn't do anything to imbalance the game....

Well duh, but I said that getting used to inverted controls is harder than avoiding the hazard I pointed up there. Geez, seriously.

I don't think you know how to maintain control as the stage flips/mirrors/changes back to normal. As you're stringing something together, having the stage flip/mirror would **** you up worse than any of WarioWare's things, hands down.

You said all of the hazards, and that it would basically always mess you up worse than WarioWare's stuff.

I'd say that since your control scheme is 100% predictable after the screen flips, so you always know what you'll be doing during it, it's not as bad as the randomness inherent in some WarioWare stuff.
Really it's an argument of "get better".
No matter how good you get, Wario Ware can and will still mess you up.
Spear Pillar less so.

Idk even know why we're arguing this.

 

[Tesh]

anyone can force anyone from under the umbrella. The umbrella moves AND if you are trying to just stand under it, you can't roll, or jump higher than a shorthop or move much at all to avoid your opponent.

 

[Kewkky]

You said that every time you jump it's easy to avoid.
Which is untrue as they can stall themselves, and jump, so for some characters, there's no way to have a 100% chance of avoiding all of them, because you don't know what it will do.

All of the cars have a set time before they appear. They all share that set time. You jump once that set time is getting closer. Voila, you have avoided all possible cars.

Plus the one that jumps always jumps in the same spot, the one that stops always stops in the same point, and the one that keeps on running... Yeah.

Pretty sure rain goes through shields.
Oh and while you're getting rained on your opponent is under the umbrella and then he gets a star when it ends.
Naa doesn't do anything to imbalance the game....

It comes in contact with your shield and prevents you from winning, but I never noticed if you still take that damage while shielding. I'm always pushing my opponents from under the umbrella anyway. And it's not like standing under it is the ultimate defensive strategy for the opponent, there's loads of options for you to get him out of there.

And there's the random unbalanced prize that I said I disliked.

You said all of the hazards, and that it would basically always mess you up worse than WarioWare's stuff.

This is what I said:

Learning how to play your character as if you had your controller upside-down or mirrored (depending on the current effect) is dramatically harder than jumping when the screen says "JUMP!".

If you read the quote you quoted from me, it's clear I'm talking about the hardest part of the flipping, when the flipping actually happens. Avoiding all of WarioWare's hazards is way easier than maintaining control while the stage is flipping/as soon as the stage mirrors. Following instructions and knowing exactly what's going on is easier to digest than stringing something then having your control stick inputs reversed and you fairing instead of bairing when you had a guaranteed bair follow-up.

I'd say that since your control scheme is 100% predictable after the screen flips, so you always know what you'll be doing during it, it's not as bad as the randomness inherent in some WarioWare stuff.
Really it's an argument of "get better".
No matter how good you get, Wario Ware can and will still mess you up.
Spear Pillar less so.

No matter how much you practice inverted contols, while you're recovering, having the controls mirror during that critical moment will always kill you. WarioWare's always the same 9 minigames, they all have like 2 seconds with instructions for you to read before they start, and then some of them have extra delay before the hazards appear (arrows, cars, pounding foot, giant with hammer).

 

[Ghostbone]

Legit stuff

Yea ok, the actual moment of inversion could mess you up I agree.

 

[Kewkky]

Anyway yeah, I was just trying to say some insignificant detail on an insignificant stage that was brought up, if I'd known we would do like 7 posts each about what I said I wouldnt've posted that at all. We went too off-topic, but no more! *abandons this tangent*

Brinstar and RC will still be active once MK gets banned (Well, maybe just RC will stay active, but I like them both and don't want to see them banned). He was the one who broke them, anyway.

 

[John12346]

Yea ok, the actual moment of inversion could mess you up I agree.

Just for the record, on this one last point, this is part of learning how to adapt to the changes. The initial human reaction would naturally freak out and slam the control stick in the opposite direction, but you just have to tell yourself, "I must keep holding the Control Stick in the same direction," and you should be able to make it back just fine.

Although, I guess it might mess up some other players, maybe those without a photographic memory might be hurt, yeah...
.
.
.
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Back to Brinstar/RC

I'm pretty sure it's almost universally agreed on that if MK didn't exist, there wouldn't be any real complaints for either stage.

 

[Ghostbone]

Just for the record, on this one last point, this is part of learning how to adapt to the changes. The initial human reaction would naturally freak out and slam the control stick in the opposite direction, but you just have to tell yourself, "I must keep holding the Control Stick in the same direction," and you should be able to make it back just fine.

Oh that's a good point, if you just keep recovering the same way you were, there will be little problem.

I'm pretty sure it's almost universally agreed on that if MK didn't exist, there wouldn't be any real complaints for either stage.

Pretty much, and the arguments against them without MK are poor at best.

 

[Kewkky]

Oh that's a good point, if you just keep recovering the same way you were, there will be little problem.

It's gonna take a buttload of practice to kill that habit then, lol.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Plus we don't ban things because they're difficult....

On the contrary, everything that is banned due to randomness is by definition, also banned due to difficulty.

Maybe not easier than a few of the Wario Ware transformations, but lets look at rain.
That's like impossible to avoid, I'd say it's much harder to avoid it then play with a screen that's turned around.

Rain has very little effect on the game and the umbrella always starts in the exact same spot. It takes either an amazing player or an amazingly lucky player to actually avoid getting hit by a single drop.

I can give lots of reasons why WarioWare could be legitimate, but I cbf. Everyone ignored my logicz when I said the same thing about Mario Bros.

 

[Ghostbone]

On the contrary, everything that is banned due to randomness is by definition, also banned due to difficulty.

There's a pretty big difference between something that's generally considered difficult and predicting the result of an RNG.

I mean look at competitive pokemon, nobody cares that technically nothing's random when they tutor people on the game and when people make teams considering the randomness of moves.

Rain has very little effect on the game and the umbrella always starts in the exact same spot. It takes either an amazing player or an amazingly lucky player to actually avoid getting hit by a single drop.

I can give lots of reasons why WarioWare could be legitimate, but I cbf. Everyone ignored my logicz when I said the same thing about Mario Bros.

You just have to be lucky enough to start under the umbrella, and hit the opponent far enough way that he can't bother you.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

In response to the first part, I was just trolling.

Second part: You don't need to win, you just need to stop your opponent winning.

 

[DMG]

There is no point for Wario Ware being legal. Any possible redeeming factors or aspects of the stage go completely out the window once you toss in randomized rewards ranging from minute to extremeties.

Mario Bros is a different story, but the overall consensus is that it changes gameplay into an overcentralized battle over the hazards.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't think Wario Ware should be legal, it is too random.

I would, however, like to draw comparisons between it and Pictochat. People overrate the effect of the randomness an awful lot.

It has also given me an idea for a good example with all of my double standard arguments (as most people here surely know, my examples for that argument are generally flawed >_>)

 

[Akaku94]

... So with MK gone, does this mean we can quit arguing over this? Without the bat there's no reasonable justification for a ban, and they both become strong CPs for Kirby, G&W, and others I'm sure...

 

[WindMajor]

There is no need to discuss this other than the fact that people may still not like it.

 

[Pony]

Just for the record, on this one last point, this is part of learning how to adapt to the changes. The initial human reaction would naturally freak out and slam the control stick in the opposite direction, but you just have to tell yourself, "I must keep holding the Control Stick in the same direction," and you should be able to make it back just fine.

Although, I guess it might mess up some other players, maybe those without a photographic memory might be hurt, yeah...
.
.
.
.
.
Back to Brinstar/RC

I'm pretty sure it's almost universally agreed on that if MK didn't exist, there wouldn't be any real complaints for either stage.

lol having inverted controls is like a basketball player getting penalized for something and then having to hop on one foot.


i think you should be fighting your opponent instead of the game

 

[ぱみゅ]

lol having inverted controls is like a basketball player getting penalized for something and then having to hop on one foot.

Firstly, is not that hard. Seriously, try it some time.
Secondly, it would last for 10 secons or so.

i think you should be fighting your opponent instead of the game

Conservative vs. liberalist, round 841238626363324210

 

[Ghostbone]

i think you should be fighting your opponent instead of the game

Pretty sure it's impossible to win by fighting the game in VS mode, we're not playing break the targets here.

 

[Akaku94]

If you want a game with no stage interference, the smash bros. series is not for you...

 

[Pony]

If you want a game with no stage interference, the smash bros. series is not for you...

i didn't say that, but i do see a problem with changing your control scheme, that just makes our game looks completely ridiculous.

let's not aspire to sonic and the secret rings.

Firstly, is not that hard. Seriously, try it some time.
Secondly, it would last for 10 secons or so.

10 seconds is a long *** time
that's so ****ing superfluously disruptive lol

 

[ぱみゅ]

But you can addapt to it.
Seriously, the reason the stage is banned is not the flipping/direction change, is not low gravity or slowdowns, is not even the random lazers.
Can we return to RC/Brinstar, or agree that there's nothing wrong with them without Metaknight and move on?

 

[Pony]

But you can addapt to it.

in that case i want mario bros legal
i don't think there are any problems with this stage with mk banned