Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
So... I don't think RC and Brinstar should be banned because there is no reason to.
This thread is soooooo interesting...
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Is a provable 4:00 timer on RC in 99% of matches enough to ban it?JEBUS YOU ****ING ******** IDIOT YOU ARE SO WRONG WHAT THE ****
So... I don't think RC and Brinstar should be banned because there is no reason to.
This thread is soooooo interesting...
Checked basically the whole thread, these were the only instances I found of you proving me wrong, so I'll refute them and get this going.but it's not proven and I already proved you wrong on it...
Aside from a technique nobody can be relied on to preform consistenly (and has BIG reprecussions if you miss it.) there is no way to punish MK planking perfectly for most of the cast, and if he is doing it with a dose of common sense, you likely won't punish him with anyone.It's not 4:00-4:30 it's an 8 minute timer MK can plank and scrooge all he wants, but you still have time to hit him during it so no it's not like a 4:00-4:30 timer or anything like it.
Scrooging is immune to projectiles because it is under you.The reason I said "not necessarily" is because if MK is still planking and scrooging right then you can still hit him especially with characters that have projectiles since 2/3rds of the stage doesn't have any good ledges to grab onto for planking/sharking, he's still vulnerable...read him....then hit him...just like you do on any other stage, it may be slightly more difficult on RC, but not impossible.
Scrooging is not safe? Hiding in a C shape that forces you to go right above metaknight (with little options) and then come approach him with very few options isn't safe?This really is just a case of "LEARN THE STAGE". It's not like Brinstar where Meta Knight suddenly becomes massively safer by playing properly, he just gets more space to aid his maneuverability.
MK has 35 Ledgegrabs to use. Assuming he uses a total of 0 on the whole other stage (it's ledgeless) he has 35 to use. 35/4 = 8 with 3 remaining.All of the viable characters and several unviable characters can still traverse RC and box Meta Knight in on the rising part, and it's very easy to catch him on the horizontal part. If you constantly pressure MK on the boat part while he is planking, he'll use his ledge-grabs up pretty quickly as well, lol.
1. The Boat.Long story short: The huge abundance of moving platforms gives both players so many options that they CAN catch each other in almost all situations.
That goes for any stage though, especially stages like smashville. I guess we should just ban smashville or better yet ban MK. I also guess we should ban Ice Climbers and Diddy since when they play perfectly they have an infinite against the whole cast (aside from squirtle and luigi for Diddy). We should also ban PS1 because PS1 typically has like 4-5 minutes of play time depending on the stage transformations right?Aside from a technique nobody can be relied on to preform consistenly (and has BIG reprecussions if you miss it.) there is no way to punish MK planking perfectly for most of the cast, and if he is doing it with a dose of common sense, you likely won't punish him with anyone.
Arced projectile: Peanuts, bananas, turnips, nakita, c4, grenades, pit's arrows, bombs, boomerangs, arrows, ice blocks, mario's fireballs, pk thunder, pk freeze, etc etc, can all hit MK.Ok, where exactly in MK scrooging the boat do I have the time to fall into him, and hit him with a safe move while not telegraphing myself so that he does whatever ledge trick he wants to get back instead of gliding?
Scrooging is immune to projectiles because it is under you.
Actually, half the stage has an area where MK can stay and basically be immune to projectiles (first cave is situational but usually works for atleast 8 seconds.)
Half the stage being like that is kinda my argument.
Equally as bad as Smashville.Stuff.
Same thing.However, it is VERY worth noting that none of you truly refuted my points, just said that it isn't an RC only problem.
Yes, but lemme just say that if it's a problem shared by SV and PS1, two widely considered starters, it's probably not a real problem. Again, I'm still looking for proof in high-level play. The theory is there (and pretty faulty, as we've argued) but not the practice, and attempts to prove it have shown to fail.I see where this is going, so I'll just go meh and stop it here.
However, it is VERY worth noting that none of you truly refuted my points, just said that it isn't an RC only problem.
okay noEqually as bad as Smashville.
In fact, it's worse for MK than Smashville because he loses ledges 1/2 of the time.
I wanna point out something dabuz himself pointed out. Getting timed out in that manner can be so demotivational that you can't even really play the next game as well as you would have if you'd just lost the RC match in a normal manner.There was M2K vs. Dabuz, where G2 Dabuz got JV2stocked with 30 seconds remaining... But then M2K pulled the exact same **** on Yoshi's Island, one of Olimar's better stages.
how do you grab someone who's under you?There was M2K vs. Bizkit, where a snake lost G2 on RC with a margin of about 30% constant throughout the match; 30% which could've been regained with one single tech chase.
That doesn't really help then pro-ban cause though. Tell him to pull himself together, focus, and don't let his emotions get the best of him. It's demotivational, yes, but so is any ol' gimp or SD. We just have to deal with it and move forward. No time to cry over spilled milk.okay no
I wanna point out something dabuz himself pointed out. Getting timed out in that manner can be so demotivational that you can't even really play the next game as well as you would have if you'd just lost the RC match in a normal manner.
Making excuses doesn't really matter either. If there's not enough evidence to make the case, then find more evidence or drop the case. I'm sure there is more though, and I know you're short on time, so w/e do it when you can.Don't have anymore time to say anything, but frankly not many matches of RC being played gay are recorded, and you have to take note that they're incredibly boring, and that lowers the chance of them being picked to be uploaded by someone
So? It's up to the player to get better and not be so driven by his emotions. Demotivating or not, Dabuz losing G3 was entirely his fault. Players can have a humiliating game every once in a while. FFS, Poongko perfected Daigo one round at Evo; did Daigo lose his cool? No, he just kept playing. This is no excuse.I wanna point out something dabuz himself pointed out. Getting timed out in that manner can be so demotivational that you can't even really play the next game as well as you would have if you'd just lost the RC match in a normal manner.
Completely beside the point; the point was, M2K was one or two hits away from losing. It was close, and not in an "M2K was untouchable but didn't land many hits" kinda way but rather an "M2K was on his last stock" kinda way. We've been over this.how do you grab someone who's under you?
Doesn't matter; if it's so clearly broken there should damn well be at least one clear-cut match that shows it! Something like MLG Orlando Ally vs. M2K for Brinstar.Don't have anymore time to say anything, but frankly not many matches of RC being played gay are recorded, and you have to take note that they're incredibly boring, and that lowers the chance of them being picked to be uploaded by someone
Been over this doesn't mean settle this. w/e this one isn't going anywhereCompletely beside the point; the point was, M2K was one or two hits away from losing. It was close, and not in an "M2K was untouchable but didn't land many hits" kinda way but rather an "M2K was on his last stock" kinda way. We've been over this.
Yeah Dabuz isn't a top 5 player or anything. Yeah it's possible to not get motivated.So? It's up to the player to get better and not be so driven by his emotions. Demotivating or not, Dabuz losing G3 was entirely his fault. Players can have a humiliating game every once in a while. FFS, Poongko perfected Daigo one round at Evo; did Daigo lose his cool? No, he just kept playing. This is no excuse.
I'm gonna point out one thing that's rather semantics-ish but is kind of important anyways.Doesn't matter; if it's so clearly broken there should damn well be at least one clear-cut match that shows it! Something like MLG Orlando Ally vs. M2K for Brinstar.
No. It's just that the whole MK ban argument has got me thinking that I'm no different from any of those people if I am arguing to get these stages banned. There really isn't anything wrong with these stages once you learn how to play on them. Banning anything that isn't broken is just trying to take the easy way outmethinks someone hacked Jebus' account... or else we've done such a good job arguing that we've won him over and completely changed his writing syle...
I could easily link at least 30 posts where you said the exact same thing without backing it up with any facts at all. >_>No. It's just that the whole MK ban argument has got me thinking that I'm no different from any of those people if I am arguing to get these stages banned. There really isn't anything wrong with these stages once you learn how to play on them. Banning anything that isn't broken is just trying to take the easy way out
Then you can't be pro MK ban if you think that wayIt'd be good if you could provide some logical backing for that.
Unless some random kid from the street can beat a player who knows what they are doing on these stages, I'd say they are fundamentally competitive.
Meta Knight is uncompetitive because once he gets the lead he is basically untouchable.Then you can't be pro MK ban if you think that way
That's not true as long as there is a LGL. He also always has to approach in the beginning because he has no projectile unless his opponent also has no projectileMeta Knight is uncompetitive because once he gets the lead he is basically untouchable.
And my example was an exaggeration, all I meant to say was that "uncompetitive" would imply that it can't foster competition, which would only apply if there was no learning curve or skill gap due to simplicity (a la naughts and crosses).
That's why I hate when people say something is uncompetitive instead of janky or what have you.
I guess if "better" to you means more fair in your eyes, in exchange for actually having competitive tournaments, then you might be right.But there shouldn't be a ledge-grab limit, as I have explained 1000 ****ing times before. It introduces sooooo many double standards and is the complete opposite of what we have done when banning things in the past.
Really, this seems more to be an issue of patience than it does actual possibility. MK could just hit once and then run the whole time, but under the kind of pressure playing someone like Razor, ADHD or DEHF often creates (Among randoms, anyway), how many would have the patience and the nerve to run the full 8 minutes?But there is a LGL in the rule set. MK isn't broken with a LGL. If fist hit would = win for MK, you would see players like Razor, ADHD and DEHF lose to random MK mains.
It's not that it isn't a broken strategy, it's that it's broken BUT people can't do it right. If you randomly pick up MK, hit ADHD once, then go and start planking, you're probably gonna get hit out of your planking. You don't know how to use MK well enough to know how far his attacks reach, where your attacks send your opponent if you hit them, how to properly capitalize on opponents' mistakes if they try to stop your planking... Plus, random players don't have the reaction speed to follow their top player opponents with their decision-making. ADHD might do some nifty mindgame on the ledge while the random is planking, and the random might fall for it and get stagespiked, making him lose the lead.But there is a LGL in the rule set. MK isn't broken with a LGL. If fist hit would = win for MK, you would see players like Razor, ADHD and DEHF lose to random MK mains.
It sounds like you're complaining more about what MK does on the stage than the stage itself. Here's a suggestion ban MK.Both of these stages are literally just gimmicks to give Metaknight free wins. Almost nobody else uses them. You can argue that they help other characters, but there are PLENTY of stages that help those characters. And the characters that these stages help still get ***** by Metaknight on these stages anyway.
Nobody likes watching Metaknight win on either of these stages.
Nobody likes playing against Metaknight on either of these stages.
The worst part about these stages is that you get free timeouts that no sort of ledgegrab rule can mitigate. I've timed people out with less than 15 ledgegrabs on both stages. I got a stock lead on Gnes at WHOBO and literally just ran away until the timer was up. I had like 17 ledgegrabs or something.
There's no reason for these stages to be legal anymore. If you're pro ban and you like seeing Metaknight be gay because you think it'll help ban him, get over yourself because as pro ban as I am right now, he's probably not going to be banned anything more than temporarily unless some serious **** is going down in the BBR right now.
Give me a reason why these stages should be legal...
No not really >.>Sv, Bf & YI together are probably the most balanced starters