Project M Social Thread

[monkeyx4]

no he have said this many times not yet give it some time

 

[Shadic]

monkeyx4: *Facepalm* At least bother reading entire posts.

By the way, about tethers... even if you don't manage to make them stick to walls, will we at least be able to cancel them into a jump?

Well, they currently go into free-fall. Canceling them into a jump sorta defeats the purpose of that. (Although their animations take so long you have to be pretty high to even notice)

 

[ETWIST4333]

I'd like to open the opportunity to accept a few more "SKILLED MELEE PLAYERS" into the mix for feedback. Please send me a PM with preferably some form of proof as to your level of melee experience (vids would be nice).


Progress is coming along very well.

I have no chance since I don't have any vids, right? T_T

I'm good but I have no way to prove it. I can JC shine. :o

I'll PM you tomorrow, Shanus.

~ETWIST51294

 

[Wind Owl]

Well, they currently go into free-fall. Canceling them into a jump sorta defeats the purpose of that. (Although their animations take so long you have to be pretty high to even notice)

He means from the wall. Like in Melee.

Rest assured, the tether system will be balanced and deep. We haven't concluded what we're doing with it, though.

 

[GPDP]

He means from the wall. Like in Melee.

Rest assured, the tether system will be balanced and deep. We haven't concluded what we're doing with it, though.

Yes, that's what I meant. It's one of the things I loved most about tethers in Melee. I could either let it go or jump out of it, which made for some sweet ledge mindgames. Far better than its one-dimensional nature in Brawl, where you just grab the ledge.

Again, even if you can't manage to make tethers stick to any wall, if I can do the things I could do out of them in Melee, I'll be satisfied.

 

[Archangel]

I'd like to open the opportunity to accept a few more "SKILLED MELEE PLAYERS" into the mix for feedback. Please send me a PM with preferably some form of proof as to your level of melee experience (vids would be nice).


Progress is coming along very well.

by skilled do you mean slightly above average? Or players that place top 25 in international tournaments? I think it's important that we get some top TOP pro's in on this. M2K status for instance. The Robot can figure out the exact frames and %s and such. Maybe some others like Scar or zhu maybe.

 

[Sneak8288]

I have no chance since I don't have any vids, right? T_T

I'm good but I have no way to prove it. I can JC shine. :o

I'll PM you tomorrow, Shanus.

~ETWIST51294

They are still taking apps for this? I have vids and alot of exp vs pro players. I play eggm, hbk, and tec0 about every week. Teams vids vs mathos n watty from like vls so i've been in the scene for a while and vs armada and anolias from pound 4 in brackets. And i used to be on the NJ power rankings when it was active if that means anything

 

[Almas]

I would believe that highly skilled would preferably mean someone who has at least local fame; not just a competitive player.

 

[ETWIST4333]

Local fame? What do you mean?

Sneak, I played Tec0 and LOLmaster in tourny before and did pretty well, I played Eggm, Chibo, Toasty, Jman, Cactus, Cyrain, Tope, Pacman, Prog, CanISmash, Lozr, and TRC too. They're pretty darn good. I has no vidz tho. I always get complements like "dude, your techskill *****, you need to play people more". I hate that : (

Armada? Really?

 

[CT Chia]

yea dont post when banned lol, but where did I play you out of curiosity? you can reply to me either on aim or when your unbanned

 

[Blank Mauser]

I think Shanus just wants feedback, not really backroom apps. Most likely just to test the game.

 

[Dark Sonic]

ROB's recovery has no weaknesses. Unlike every other character, he can choose when to attack out of his up-B, and can stall in his up-B to mess up the edgeguarders timing. He can also recover from higher or lower than any other character could dream of.

Sonic's full recovery goes just as high and far as Rob's (side B->jump->up B). Both can recover from the bottom corner of the screen. Sonic's also cover's it's distance faster.

But, I'll admit that Rob can cover himself better than Sonic. Only reason I say Sonic's is better is that Rob's up B eventually runs out, while Sonic gets his up B back every time he's hit (don't forget that the up B also has invincibility frames), meaning that Sonic is more likely to survive from continuous edge guarding than Rob is (things like melee Marth).

But idk, maybe I'm underestimating how disjointed Rob's aerials are.

btw, even if you recover high to go above Marth, you still have to get down. Peach and Ganon faced this problem too <_<.

 

[Zodiac]

I agree, I dont think top tiers should get nerfed, just buff low tiers.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think what Shanus is trying to get at is that he doesn't want "buff this/nerf that" feedback. He wants "this doesn't feel the same as melee, and the problem is X. Y is a possible way to fix it" kind of feedback. For that you'd at the very least have to be technically skilled at the game.

 

[Blank Mauser]

It'd also be nice to have some eye candy for the next trailer.

 

[Timotee]

Question about the mechanic changes: Will invincibility be changed to work like in melee? When you were invincible and interacted with a hitbox, the hitbox got flagged and couldn't hit you even after the invincibility was gone. It's why peach's up smash would beat every aerial, since their hitbox couldn't hit after the invincible frames took the box out. I'm just wondering if there are any plans to get that back.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^That only happens with green invincibility (invincibility comes in two types. In AR's debug they are color coded, thus the names.)

Green invincibility is found when your character respawns, or when you grab a starman. Afaik no ATTACK in melee has this type of invincibility. What you are experiencing with Peach's upsmash is more likely the other person's hurtbox encountering your hitbox while you are still unable to be hit by theirs (since you're still invincible). And of course, hitting a character cancels out whatever hitbox they had out, so when your invincibility ends it doesn't matter, as there is nothing left to hit you. A very clear indication that a hitbox has been flagged and will not hit again is the appearance of a hit bubble (what you see when you hit an opponent who's invincible from respawning). This hitbubble also appears when shielding attacks.

Blue invincibility is the invincibility found on spotdodges, rolls, ledgegrabs, and on invincible attacks (the shines, Jigg's rest, Marth's up B, Samus's up B, Bowser's up B, ect.). This kind of invincibility does NOT flag the hitbox, and if your invincibility runs out while their hitbox is still out then you will be hit. Once again, the reason that Samus/Bowsers up B beat all attacks is not because of some kind of hitbox flag. It's simply because hitting the opponent stops them from attacking, and being invincible while your hitbox is out (both of these moves are invincible until after the first frame that the hitbox is out) ensures that you will have at least 1 frame where you can hit them but they can't hit you. If you REALLY want to test these things out to see what I mean, you can have Marth space a neutral B and watch it still hit them, despite the invincible startup (Marth's neutral B is ideal for this because it lasts for a while, is very disjointed, and most importantly DOES NOT CLANK. It has transcendent priority.)

 

[Timotee]

Ah, yep, you're right, I had forgotten that the green bubbles did a special invuln on respawn. I only remembered them being "special" hitboxes like ness' fsmash reflect.

 

[Rion]

In Melee, Zelda's Din's Fire was so completely garbage and gross that most of the time it was just full-out ignored even against opponents who were recovering back on stage.


You know, the biggest thing that made Zelda's Din's Fire so futile as an off stage pressure tool was BAD. I don't think I need to explain much as to why.

So if you have Zelda's Brawl Din's Fire, with Melee AD mechanics...

I dunno, am I understanding this right? I think it's just late and I'm being tired.

 

[Bero]

I told that I would introduce this project to Japanese several weeks ago.
Finally I made a page that introduces this.
http://www31.atwiki.jp/bero/pub/ProjectM/

And you can contct us here (of course you can use English) .
(write your message to the textbox, then push button)
http://www31.atwiki.jp/bero/

But you have to use online-translation because these are written in Japanese.
Well , l hope this project will make much success !

 

[shanus]

I think what Shanus is trying to get at is that he doesn't want "buff this/nerf that" feedback. He wants "this doesn't feel the same as melee, and the problem is X. Y is a possible way to fix it" kind of feedback. For that you'd at the very least have to be technically skilled at the game.

Well ideally, both. But the part you highlighted for the "feel" is what I'm aiming for first.

Like if I had a Lucky or Silent Wolf working with me, that'd be O_o

 

[JCaesar]

Sonic's full recovery goes just as high and far as Rob's (side B->jump->up B). Both can recover from the bottom corner of the screen. Sonic's also cover's it's distance faster.

ROB's recovery goes much farther distance-wise. ROB has the best vertical recovery in the game bar none, and the best horizontal recovery excluding gliders and Jiggs which are essentially infinite. ROB can get from the bottom to the top of the largest custom map on 1 tank of gas if you know what you're doing with it.

btw, even if you recover high to go above Marth, you still have to get down. Peach and Ganon faced this problem too <_<.

FFed nair can get through most of what Marth has unless he times it extremely well. On top of that, ROB can quickly change his momentum and direction while he's falling with wavebounced gyro-cancels and bairs. And if all that fails, ROB can get a nice horizontal boost with side-B which is fairly safe and very fast if you only tap it once.

In Melee, Zelda's Din's Fire was so completely garbage and gross that most of the time it was just full-out ignored even against opponents who were recovering back on stage.


You know, the biggest thing that made Zelda's Din's Fire so futile as an off stage pressure tool was BAD. I don't think I need to explain much as to why.

So if you have Zelda's Brawl Din's Fire, with Melee AD mechanics...

I dunno, am I understanding this right? I think it's just late and I'm being tired.

You can still clash with it with a decent priority attack. I think things like this (and ROB's recovery) need to be tested in the mechanics of the game before preemptively nerfing them. I can see how it might end up being a problem but it should still be tested first.

 

[Dark Sonic]

FFed nair can get through most of what Marth has unless he times it extremely well. On top of that, ROB can quickly change his momentum and direction while he's falling with wavebounced gyro-cancels and bairs. And if all that fails, ROB can get a nice horizontal boost with side-B which is fairly safe and very fast if you only tap it once.

let's just say I have trouble believing any of this would work on melee Marth. It might work if the Marth player doesn't adjust his trap to include platforms, but other than that you're still trying to compete with Marth's range and trying to outrun him <_<.

I'll concede on the distance though.

We'll see who has the better recovery once the beta is released

 

[Dan_X]

So... I've asked this a few times but, will Kirby play like his 64 self?? Dair spikes (at the tip) drill beyond that. He pillars with dair to utilt, assuming he l-cancels.

Edit: his Dair didn't sweetspot in 64, but I think it should rely on a small sweet spot at the tip of his toes (feet) so that it rakes more skill to execute. That's just me.

Also his up+b should spike upon the downward arc. If it doesn't already do this in Brawl (I haven't played Kirby much in Brawl) it should. It's really predicatable, and you should be rewarded for landing it on a recovering enemy.

 

[shanus]

Kirby currently has not gotten much love. I'd love to see some people discuss him further.

 

[Dan_X]

@shanus, ok, I'd love to start the conversation then!

so what do you guys think of Kirby playing more like his 64 self, check out my above post.

 

[Wind Owl]

His Dair should be uniformly distributed like in 64, and not this weird... lag in the beginning and then fast hit nonsense.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Give him his Melee side-B back? Lulz

I also think his cutter's ending hitboxes should meteor. He should be able to grab after he inhales people, though you guys probably already know to at least make that unpunishable like in B+.

Kirby just isn't going to be the same threat as Jiggs without that aerial mobility though, and its honestly already hard enough for him to approach without super fastfallers and such. Maybe if his wavedash was a bit longer then his Melee version, because replicating Melee would leave him pretty crippled in this environment. His grabs might also need to be adjusted for the new physics.

If Kirby played like his 64 self he'd just Dair > Utilt people's shields and they'd break. <_<;

 

[ValTroX]

I agree with Wind, the start up lag is kinda big but let's face it Orca...Kirby was just beastly in 64. I do think he should be buffed, but not to his 64 extends

 

[Alphatron]

He wasn't even the best character in 64.

 

[Dan_X]

His Dair should be uniformly distributed like in 64, and not this weird... lag in the beginning and then fast hit nonsense.

what exactly do you mean by this? I main Kirby in 64, but I don't care much for him in Brawl. Do you mean the start up lag for his dair needs to be fixed? or? Sorry, but if you could explain what you mean, I'd appreciate it.

let's face it Orca...Kirby was just beastly in 64. I do think he should be buffed, but not to his 64 extends

Perhaps, but all of the Melee characters are being buffed to their Melee selves (which are more than beastly, might I add). With that said, I don't see how bringing much closer to his Melee self is all that bad. Keep his 64 combo game in tact (at least the pillaring) but make it more DI dependent. That's all. Fox has a similar playstyle, that is, he pillars, and it's okay for him.

I think is Dair should work much more similarly to 64 though. Though, perhaps, as you guys have said, not as good. In that, it was too easy to Spike (with nearly every character). So, to make it more difficult (and skill based) make the spike hitbox a sweetspot, that has to be spaced well. I don't think that's OP. Every other hitbox aside from his more powerful spike, should send the enemy downward, but to a far weaker effect, in a multi-hit pillaring fashion. He should be able to cancel his Dair end lag into a utilt. Now to avoid "easy mode" he could have his utilt be very good, but still more DI dependent (like Fox). That way he can still pillar, but with more reading.

His downward slash with the up+B should meteor-- this I think is a no brainer. It's hilariously easy to avoid, and you should be rewarded for landing it.

I don't know that after these changes he'd need many other tweaks... hmmm?

He wasn't even the best character in 64.

Actually, he was.

EDIT: (I just checked the Smash 64 section of the forums, and I guess Kirby is 3. I thought he was #1. Hmm... maybe they changed the tiers recently.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Pikachu has pretty much always been the best in SSB64. Kirby was 2 for a while though.

 

[Dan_X]

Pikachu has pretty much always been the best in SSB64. Kirby was 2 for a while though.

oh okay. My bad. ;P

I love watching Isai's videos. He's disgustingly good. I wonder if he still plays..

 

[Blank Mauser]

Pretty sure Pikachu has been on top for a while but yeah. Kirby is second to bottom in Melee, and there may have been a time where people argued he was the worst.

In Brawl and Brawl+ he has trouble approaching, and most the times he isn't busy poking with Bair he only goes in to fish for a grab. Without the aerial momentum of Jiggs I suggest a longer wavedash, which complements his grabgame and isn't too farfetch'd an idea right?

I think his tilts would also be a pretty good help with a longer wavedash. After all, we can see what it did for Samus in Melee.

His Dair is easily escapable in both recent games. I can't even count the number of times people have just Up-B'ed out of my Dair, sometimes killing me(Diddy's Up-B spike). If anything, if it did become a more feasible spike I would not mind the startup time it has now.

 

[ValTroX]

oh i meant brawls Dair, it just starts up slow and finishes up with a LOT of hits. I think they should balance the ratio of hits, giving it a faster start up. Also, I do agree that the meleefied characters are kinda powerful, but 64's Kirby stalling was just too awesome and i think it'll be a little too much shield pressure.

 

[Wind Owl]

@Orca: in 64 the hits are individually slower but the amount of startup and endlag is equal to the space in between each hit. In Brawl, it has high startup but each hit is closer together.

Also, I don't think a sweetspot is necessary considering Falco's Dair which isn't even a meteor and is active for a retardedly long time.

 

[humble]

Kirby should have super armor while transforming into a rock, and a "quake" hitbox when he hits the ground. Its considered a useless move, but it might have some use. It is never expected for someone to use the grounded version, it yields a bit of slide from a run, but a wavedash into it would be sexy in P:M, especially if it quaked (one of its issues was slow startup, but even then its hitbox is only on his rock body, making it laughably easy to avoid) it still wouldn't be a great move, but at least it would get pulled off more, and might even hit sometimes.

Triangle dash out of rock would be pretty awesome as well, so it wouldn't be ezpz guaranteed hit on kirby at the end of the move.

I agree with blank about a longer wavedash, so +1 for that.

 

[Dan_X]

@Orca: in 64 the hits are individually slower but the amount of startup and endlag is equal to the space in between each hit. In Brawl, it has high startup but each hit is closer together.

Oh I see what you're saying. I agree, better distribution would def. be nice.

Also, I don't think a sweetspot is necessary considering Falco's Dair which isn't even a meteor and is active for a retardedly long time.

Good point. I merely mentioned the sweetspot in fear that the idea would outright be shot down-- though I see little reason for why it should.

Kirby should have super armor while transforming into a rock, and a "quake" hitbox when he hits the ground. Its considered a useless move, but it might have some use. It is never expected for someone to use the grounded version, it yields a bit of slide from a run, but a wavedash into it would be sexy in P:M, especially if it quaked (one of its issues was slow startup, but even then its hitbox is only on his rock body, making it laughably easy to avoid) it still wouldn't be a great move, but at least it would get pulled off more, and might even hit sometimes.

Triangle dash out of rock would be pretty awesome as well, so it wouldn't be ezpz guaranteed hit on kirby at the end of the move.

I agree with blank about a longer wavedash, so +1 for that.

Hmm, I'm iffy on the idea of SA when going into rock, or a wind hitbox upon landing. I could go back and forth on both ideas, actually. It'd make sense to have a wind hitbox on his transform hitting the ground, just like Toon link's Dair, but the thing is, Kirby can cancel his rock before touching the ground, thus making it arguably safer. So though it wouldn't be a bad idea, it may be too safe.

To be utterly honest with you guys, I find Kirby to be the most boring character to play in the game (both playing and watching. Those of you who think Lucario is boring, think again...)-- and I don't want it to be that way. He's like a far less fun version of Jiggly. I say jiggly purely on the basis that they're both puff balls, not because they play alike (because they don't). He's just boring. In 64 he was fun, because of pillaring, and giimping. He no longer plays anything like this in Melee, Brawl, or even Brawl+, and as such, in my opinion, he's quite drab. Fox is fun because of his tech skill, right? Well, this is why Kirby was also so fun in 64.

I'd strongly advocate taking him back to his 64 roots.

 

[Rikana]

I didn't like Kirby in all the smash games. He was too boring. Even in 64, although he can combo, it didn't require much mixups to make him better. I honestly have no idea how to make Kirby fun either. His movesets are kind of bland.

 

[lordvaati]

I didn't like Kirby in all the smash games. He was too boring. Even in 64, although he can combo, it didn't require much mixups to make him better. I honestly have no idea how to make Kirby fun either. His movesets are kind of bland.

at least it's not as bad as Zelda.