Project M Social Thread

[Dark Sonic]

Did it occur to any of you guys that BAD actually BENEFITS from higher gravity? Higher gravity means more distance covered while invincible, which means you can airdodge from higher off the ground, which means fast fallers get a "get down to the ground for free" card. Do we honestly want to make it EVEN HARDER to catch Fox?

my 2 cents

 

[GP&B]

You mean going into fall special like MAD except with aerial control?

Did it occur to any of you guys that BAD actually BENEFITS from higher gravity. Higher gravity means more distance covered while invincible, which means you can airdodge from higher off the ground, which means space animals get a "get down to the ground for free" card. Do we honestly want to make it EVEN HARDER to catch Fox?

My thoughts exactly. I was just imagining that higher gravity means you can reach the ground faster and thus, make better use of the frames on BAD.

 

[shanus]

Let's just say for now I've removed BAD lol

 

[NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT]

Let's just say for now I've removed BAD lol

/hug

the post about fast fallers (and fox) with BAD... is a bad idea XD

so yay for shanus ^^

I agree with the post I read a day or two ago ^^

Shanus [not equal to] > Sakurai

 

[Dai Tian]

Did removing it fix the 2 frame issue it had before?

 

[shanus]

Did removing it fix the 2 frame issue it had before?

An unavoidable issue seems to be that I can't move a character on the first frame (in melee you could move on the first frame). However, I did fix the momentum boost issue to place you at peak momentum on your first frame.

 

[Shadic]

By the way, I'd just like to say that current Glide Toss is insane.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

The air or grounded form? Both are pretty nasty. :3

 

[Shadic]

Retreating Aerial Ones, especially. Great way to put distance between you and your opponent,.

 

[Archangel]

BAD could add some depth if it was tweakable.

 

[Sterowent]

i wouldn't mind a BAD that slowed your decent and altered your fallspeed for a short period of time after it was over.

oh wait...

how about, uh, allowing BAD to work before reaching the apex of your jump, with a DJC included if it's the second jump? you'd lose your second jump and be unable to do it otherwise if you're in the air.

i don't mind BAD disappearing, but why not figure out of it's possible to give it the same appeal as MAD? make it a powerful, mindgame tool with powerful drawbacks.

 

[a nub]

BAD should stay in the trash imo. It just doesn't seem worth it, all it serves to do really is stall awkwardly, even with these ideas. Everything about it is just bad game design, curse you sakurai

 

[superyoshi888]

I'd like to have HAD, but you should make it so that BAD only gives you one air dodge, but you still have control over your character. This way, you don't have to worry about being unable to do anything, but you will lose the options to dodge again or wavedash until you land.

Would that be managable?

 

[ItachiFire2]

What if we kept HAD, but BAD ate all your jumps and you couldn't AD again afterwards (until you were hit)?

Why not just have BAD put you in special fall?

 

[shanus]

Personally, functionality should be clear. A move shouldnt have embedded multiple functionality to add depth, but should be entirely transparent but yield complexity. A single form of air dodge such as MAD does that.

 

[a nub]

As ds said last page BAD also has problems w/stalling as it'd be stupid dealing with spacies, (and probably also anyone else with above average falling speed) using ad to help them stall. Not to mention jiggs would probably be like barlw mk all over again lol. MAD just ****s all over BAD

 

[Sterowent]

Personally, functionality should be clear. A move shouldnt have embedded multiple functionality to add depth, but should be entirely transparent but yield complexity. A single form of air dodge such as MAD does that.

then, in the name of good game design, BAD will be relinquished? that's cool.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Yeah, the HAD doesn't seem to fit in with the physics.

 

[Archangel]

Only way I would say leaving in BAD as part of HAD is if after you did a MAD you had the option of doing a BAD in which case you would regain your ability to use attacks. However I could see that being OP'd by alot. Imagine Jiggs recovering. Marth Fsmashes, Jiggs MADs then BAD's then Rests him or something....not to mention Fox/Falco,wolf would gain the ability to shine out of airdodges and.....i'm not sure how that would work...idk.

 

[Deleted member]

HAD could be given to chars who may lack great ways to deal with pressure exclusively.
Link using it along with his fast fall speed to touch solid ground quickly and reset his position would be nice.
Sticking it on characters who lack a little something in the defensive department might be beneficial.

 

[GPDP]

Only way I would say leaving in BAD as part of HAD is if after you did a MAD you had the option of doing a BAD in which case you would regain your ability to use attacks. However I could see that being OP'd by alot. Imagine Jiggs recovering. Marth Fsmashes, Jiggs MADs then BAD's then Rests him or something....not to mention Fox/Falco,wolf would gain the ability to shine out of airdodges and.....i'm not sure how that would work...idk.

We actually once had a HAD code that did exactly that. Needless to say, it sucked.

 

[Alphatron]

What was Kupo's old idea for the BAD? Making it decrease gravity or something like that?

You have to admit, the MAD was pretty bad for actually dodging attacks. BAD was still a step in the wrong direction, due to being overpowered.

 

[Dark Sonic]

HAD could be given to chars who may lack great ways to deal with pressure exclusively.
Link using it along with his fast fall speed to touch solid ground quickly and reset his position would be nice.
Sticking it on characters who lack a little something in the defensive department might be beneficial.

Link won't have problems getting down anymore though.

He can now just pull out a bomb and aerial glide toss his way out of situations (not the BEST defense, but it's something).

And don't forget that bad characters will be getting rebalanced in general. BAD is a VERY powerful defensive option, which just doesn't fit the melee style.

 

[Sterowent]

it seems that, in melee, the cost of invulnerability is quite high.

the perks? you do gain a unique form of movement, and, of course, the invuln.

the cons? you trade away your unlimited movement, ability to attack, and your defense until you reach the ground again.

airdodges and rolls both do this, and spotdodges plainly blew because, while they didn't leave you defenseless as much, they didn't offer much invuln either and didn't offer any movement at all. ledges nearly went this route, but rather than being defenseless attacks instead could simply finish you or, at least, put you back on the ledge eventually. the developers probably broke down each instance of invulnerability and made situational tweaks. except, uh, with the spotdodges...
like everything in melee, these things didn't obstruct the tempo of a match either since they happened quickly enough and still gave enough movement to justify making them shorter.

the brawl airdodge was poorly designed, then. someone on the melee team must've just been that brilliant.

 

[leafgreen386]

There's a reason it's called "BAD," guys.

Kupo's idea for BAD was essentially to melee-ize the BAD, making it fall slower, more like a MAD, to make them easier to punish as you wouldn't go as far. But at that point, you may as well just remove it entirely, since MAD is not only more versatile, but it fulfills all the same purposes and more that the nerf to BAD would. There's no real reason to keep BAD, in any form.

 

[NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT]

Only way I would say leaving in BAD as part of HAD is if after you did a MAD you had the option of doing a BAD in which case you would regain your ability to use attacks. However I could see that being OP'd by alot. Imagine Jiggs recovering. Marth Fsmashes, Jiggs MADs then BAD's then Rests him or something....not to mention Fox/Falco,wolf would gain the ability to shine out of airdodges and.....i'm not sure how that would work...idk.

you got me lost with all that >.>

but, from the underlined txt, out of MAD you can't do nothing but Special Fall so no, jiggly can't MAD then Bad into rest :s

lolz, MAD will be the best result to make the game to feel completely like melee

in melee when I was learning to fight marth, this is what my friend told me:

If you are a fast faller and you are at Low% and marth grabs you, just don't attempt to waste your Second jump, just DI correctly

I said, why? if I jump I can get out, he said:

If you jump and he Utilt you before getting out of reach, or if he SH Uair and hits you you will get comboed, and if you MAD, you will get Comboed or Fsmash Tippered

with BAD on, I can just ignore what my friend taught me, and just DI, mash direction to exit tumble, Fast Fall, BAD, ***Marth Utilts*** (I'm fox/falco) shine and > combo > **** marth cause BAD kills the melee feel

do the math
MAD >BAD
HAD = bad Idea

Edit:

There's a reason it's called "BAD," guys.

Kupo's idea for BAD was essentially to melee-ize the BAD, making it fall slower, more like a MAD, to make them easier to punish as you wouldn't go as far. But at that point, you may as well just remove it entirely, since MAD is not only more versatile, but it fulfills all the same purposes and more that the nerf to BAD would. There's no real reason to keep BAD, in any form.

This

 

[Blank Mauser]

Honestly most things you can do with BAD you can do with MAD, except MAD isn't as broken and isn't the be all end all unlike BAD is. Whats the point in even having directional airdodges at all then besides wavedashing, a few slight recovery gimmicks etc?

MAD fulfills most the purposes of BAD and fulfills its own purposes without the need for HAD to hybridize it. Wouldn't it be annoying for every Fox to just BAD to the ground and get free shine combos on you? Theres just not much reason to do anything coming down to the ground besides BAD.

You could try and fix it with landing lag or something, but why even bother when MAD is multi-purpose as it is?

 

[NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT]

Honestly most things you can do with BAD you can do with MAD, except MAD isn't as broken and isn't the be all end all unlike BAD is. Whats the point in even having directional airdodges at all then besides wavedashing, a few slight recovery gimmicks etc?

MAD fulfills most the purposes of BAD and fulfills its own purposes without the need for HAD to hybridize it. Wouldn't it be annoying for every Fox to just BAD to the ground and get free shine combos on you? Theres just not much reason to do anything coming down to the ground besides BAD.

You could try and fix it with landing lag or something, but why even bother when MAD is multi-purpose as it is?

Let's just say for now I've removed BAD lol

This

but plz, just remove the for now from there so it gets totally out, MAD = Melee BAD = a bad idea to make melee more brawl

we should make a thread in the melee forums making votes, to keep MAD for P:M or just use HAD which will have the boring BAD on it >.<

XD, I won't open it, hopefully a Voting thread will keep in mind melee players opinions

 

[ValTroX]

I would certainly agree with full removal of BAD, but wouldn't it really kill Sonic's recovery? I mean, I really hate that guy, but it's the only safe option that he has while returning to stage, if he does MAD out of spring, he will be punished like crazy xD.
EDIT: You'll have to compensate him with more air mobility or a beastly stage game to be fair to him

 

[Shell]

Sonic's recovery is silly. I'm not sure what you're worried about.

 

[NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT]

I would certainly agree with full removal of BAD, but wouldn't it really kill Sonic's recovery? I mean, I really hate that guy, but it's the only safe option that he has while returning to stage, if he does MAD out of spring, he will be punished like crazy xD.
EDIT: You'll have to compensate him with more air mobility or a beastly stage game to be fair to him

I thought about sonic while saying "remove BAD"

but if you up B at a perfect place from below you can:

1: predict being hit and tech in a wall
2: if opponent does not attack since sonic Can also attack out of it, just MAD > WaveDash to be safe
3: this ideas are not good and Sonic Might need a lil Buff on he's Up B
4: #3 is ignored

XD

 

[ValTroX]

Sonic's recovery is indeed silly....with BAD. But I'm sure making him freefall after an AD will murder him. Anyways I hate Sonic so much...so I don't really care what happens to him We just have to see him with the change implemented. Anyways, I know you guys will do a wonderful job with the project and nothing will be overlooked.

 

[Dark Sonic]

ValTrox...you obviously don't know much about Sonic.

1. With side B and a second jump you won't even need to use your up B most of the time.
2. Sonic can attack out of his up B, and his uair is one of the most horizontally ranged uairs IN THE GAME, while also being one of the most vertically disjointed (don't believe me? It beat's G&W's dair you know <_<)
3. Sonic's up B has invincibility frames (I think it was like 10-15 or something. We can check that later), meaning that you can simply space your up B so that you're invincible as you pass the ledge.
4. Sonic can wall jump AND footstool jump after his up B. You can simply go for a ledge and footstool jump them if they try to edgehog (or wall jump if they're invincible while they're on it. Then you can airdodge onto the stage, or just drift back and footstool off of them after their invincibility is over).

You know, Sonic arguably has one of the BEST recoveries in the game, even without BAD (I hardly ever airdodge when recovering anyway. My aerials are typically safer)

 

[Shadic]

Sonic's recovery is silly. I'm not sure what you're worried about.

With the higher gravity, not really. I don't think it's bad, but it isn't anything to write home about.

..Although I AM discounting the homing attack..

 

[Deleted member]

Sonic's recovery is silly. I'm not sure what you're worried about.

Uh, really? Maybe I'm playing him wrong, but sometimes his Up-B doesn't extend fully, and his horizontal recovery is just .. bleh.

 

[Shell]

The Up-B not extending fully is a glitch that occurs out of hitstun. Eventually this will be isolated and fixed.

While the range can leave some things to be desired, it's pretty difficult to gimp even without a BAD.

 

[Blank Mauser]

His Up-B is already superior to so many with or without BAD. He has spinshot for horizontal recovery, and his Up-B can carry him pretty well and even has invincibility for a bit. Basically everything Dark Sonic said. I don't even use BAD when I recover with him.

I still liked instant homing attack+cancel. Maybe we can make it every 2 or 3 homing attacks its instant like with Luigi's Melee tornado recovery. That way it can both **** up his recovery(Since it won't be useful off-stage if its the instant downwards attack) or be an awesome AT/help on-stage both offensively and for mobility.

 

[Shell]

Yeah. Everyone that thinks Sonic's recovery was bad in B+ needs to go read Dark Sonic's post and then play a good Sonic.

Sure, his recovery won't be as good in P:M. No one's will be, though.

 

[Cyan_Blau]

The Up-B not extending fully is a glitch that occurs out of hitstun. Eventually this will be isolated and fixed.

While the range can leave some things to be desired, it's pretty difficult to gimp even without a BAD.

For me it seemed to be not that high because of the downward gravity ... but maybe it's because of the hitstun?

Because adding more speed on the game will also require to level up the downward spee in any case which can be negative to the height of the recovers (like Sonic upB or Fox/Falco upB).

That also could be the problem why all recovers don't seem to become really good.

I thought anyone in the project worked on the recovers ... just by adding height on PSA or something in that way...

(IDK if I'm 100%ly right, but if yes, then my solution request is simply mentioned in the sentence above ^^")
____________

Another question would be if there will be any kinds of extra stages like the N64 Metal Mario Stage, which was mentioned at the beginning of this project.

(Maybe by using the stage expansion... (and asking Dantarion for using it on this project)).

_____________

EDIT#: Do anyone working on the project use informations from this thread?

Things like the priority might be able to create for the brawl engine... not?

(Also the priority is nearly the same, just some bugs are implemented by Sora for a "more competitive game"... IDK at the moment ...)

 

[Archangel]

if his UpB became a big problem for recovery couldn't you always change it? Or make it ignore gravity.