Project M Social Thread

[ValTroX]

I don't use Sonic, one of my friends does, but he hardly uses sideB for recovery. I don't see many Sonic videos either, most people don't use him, but if you like to post some videos of side b's recoveries i would greatly appreciate it . Also, I do know he has invincibility frames during upB, which IMHO i think he has too many of em. Anyways, as Shadic stated, I believe that the gravity change will affect his recovery capabilities. I just wanna see how he turns out, because i think he will be a techchasing god
Also, spring gimping will become even more annoying to characters like Falcon, Ganondorf with the increased gravity.

 

[Archangel]

spring gimps are a huge problem in a game with melee physics. Not sure what to suggest though. Maybe making it like peach's turnip gimp?

 

[Alphatron]

The only thing I liked about the BAD was not going into freefall after doing it. It should be fixed to leave you vulnerable for a while and not allow you to mash the airdodge button repeatedly. But melee>everything afterall...

 

[Dark Sonic]

I don't use Sonic, one of my friends does, but he hardly uses sideB for recovery. I don't see many Sonic videos either, most people don't use him, but if you like to post some videos of side b's recoveries i would greatly appreciate it . Also, I do know he has invincibility frames during upB, which IMHO i think he has too many of em. Anyways, as Shadic stated, I believe that the gravity change will affect his recovery capabilities. I just wanna see how he turns out, because i think he will be a techchasing god
Also, spring gimping will become even more annoying to characters like Falcon, Ganondorf with the increased gravity.

Then he's a bad player.

And I have some horrendously old vids of me vs Cape if you really want to see them. Like 4.0 old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlvqJB2LRRQ

Do I use it ALL the time? No, sometimes I'm close enough to the stage not to need it and up B is too good anyway. Sometimes I don't have my second jump so I'd die from using it. But by pure distance, it's basically a glide to be honest. Sonic can go under FD with this thing (that's right, he doesn't need homing attack to do it).

Recovery-wise spinshotting is just the faster, yet slightly shorter version of this. I use it occasionally nowadays (I used to hardly ever use it). Only reason I don't do it all the time is because I like saving my jump for as long as possible, as something to weave around edgeguards.

I think Blank has some videos of 5.0. I'm not sure. But anyway, his recovery hasn't changed since then. afaik Sonic's up B will be compensated for gravity, so all he's losing is the BAD. So the only characters with recoveries BETTER than his will be MK and Jigglypuff really (not even Peach. YEAH I SAID IT!)

@Spam, how are they a problem? So Sonic will be relatively good at gimping. It's not like we don't already have to deal with Marth, Peach, Sheik, Fox, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Falco, ect, ect. Sonic's up B spring often isn't enough to kill them anyway, it just makes them easier to edgeguard by putting them below stage (okay I'll admit, it DESTROYS pure vertical recoveries like Marth's .)

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Sure, his recovery won't be as good in P:M. No one's will be, though.

Spoiler

Soooonnnnn, you must be crazy. Diddy's recovery was BUFFED. GET AT HIM.

 

[ValTroX]

he's not a bad player, he just relies on upB +AD, which is VERY VERY safe.
EDIT: Just watched the video, sideB is indeed useful in recovery purposes, he won't need any buff other than vertical compensation for the gravity change. Still it is not nearly as safe as upB+AD every time you'll get attacked. Also, I can't wait 'till we get manual L cancel, I hate people being able to attack so fast without the need of at least some effort, L cancel adds room for screw ups

 

[Dark Sonic]

he's not a bad player, he just relies on upB +AD, which is VERY VERY safe.

He's just using that because you let him get away with it <_<. Even BAD can be punished (although yes it's generally safe).

Sonic doesn't NEED BAD for his recovery. With it gone he's not suddenly a worse character, he just needs to recover differently (which his is more than capable of doing). He already has one of the most versatile recoveries in the game, if your friend chooses to only use one of his RIDICULOUS number of options then that's his fault.

I'm looking forward to P:M Sonic (though I don't think B+ Sonic was far off really). I've got a few ideas for what to include for his section. Showcase things like wavedashing out of spincharge (down B), side B->wavedash edgehogs, wavelanding out of spinshots, ect. Some other cool things would be ASC->shield cancel->shield platform drop, edgecanceled dairs (CAN you edge cancel dairs?), waveland out of up B, and a display of whatever you end up doing to homing attack.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Does MAD cancel all momentum? If so, Sonic could sweetspot out of his UpB, couldn't he?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Yes MAD cancels all momentum. However, characters can't grab the ledge for some time after the MAD, and with meleefied ledge grab distances...MADing to grab the ledge will be a last ditch effort or something.

What you COULD do is MAD past them if they're right at the ledge, and if they're spaced away from it you can drift a little onto the stage and waveland backwards.

Also, would making up B be cancelable a little earlier be out of the question? I'd love to see Sonic be able to up B from the ground and just waveland onto the top platform of BF or Warioware. Anything that makes Sonic able to attack from strange angles or get to places faster makes me happy

 

[Blank Mauser]

I'm looking forward to P:M Sonic (though I don't think B+ Sonic was far off really). I've got a few ideas for what to include for his section. Showcase things like wavedashing out of spincharge (down B), side B->wavedash edgehogs, wavelanding out of spinshots, ect. Some other cool things would be ASC->shield cancel->shield platform drop, edgecanceled dairs (CAN you edge cancel dairs?), waveland out of up B, and a display of whatever you end up doing to homing attack.

If I could pitch in, 2 instant homing attacks and every 3rd is a regular homing attack. Non-spammable instant homing attack with side-B cancel, and adding strategy to recovering with homing attack. Best solution I can see for that move right now.

Also Dair IASA frames halfway through would be great for tricksies and using that off-stage in general.

I feel like I didn't get to do much with Brawl+ Sonic, but this game easily has more room for flexibility...

And yes Tatsuman, that would work perfectly fine.

@Dark Sonic: Did you ever play around with my instant homing attack+side-B cancel? Its turbo fall man, super fun for his mobility.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Blank, actually I haven't yet. Though if it's what I think it is (getting the downward momentum and angle of HA while charging a side B mid air) it sounds pretty awesome (probably TOO awesome, but hey we deal with Jigglypuff right?)

I've got nothing planned today, maybe I'll play P:M against some computers or something (any freezing issues? Like, should I not fight certain characters against each other), just to see what Sonic feels like so far.

 

[jalued]

I'd love to see Sonic be able to up B from the ground and just waveland onto the top platform of BF or Warioware. Anything that makes Sonic able to attack from strange angles or get to places faster makes me happy

yep, wavelanding out of his UpB should be incredible...

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I dunno, if you got the timing right, you'd have invincibility for a good portion of it. Easy way to get to the edge quick.

And that would be pretty cool, actually. There'd probably have to be a bit of sacrifice on the invuln time though.

 

[shanus]

Yes MAD cancels all momentum. However, characters can't grab the ledge for some time after the MAD, and with meleefied ledge grab distances...MADing to grab the ledge will be a last ditch effort or something.

What you COULD do is MAD past them if they're right at the ledge, and if they're spaced away from it you can drift a little onto the stage and waveland backwards.

Also, would making up B be cancelable a little earlier be out of the question? I'd love to see Sonic be able to up B from the ground and just waveland onto the top platform of BF or Warioware. Anything that makes Sonic able to attack from strange angles or get to places faster makes me happy

It might be possible, however, my guess is that its going to make for some crazy momentum shenanigans when you do a fair or uair and fly way high

Also: You might be able to shorten the start up time for homing attack with:

120F0200 Scalar .5, RA-Basic 2

120F0200 Scalar .5, RA-Basic 3

After those variables are initially called. I need to test that.

 

[shanus]

Blank, actually I haven't yet. Though if it's what I think it is (getting the downward momentum and angle of HA while charging a side B mid air) it sounds pretty awesome (probably TOO awesome, but hey we deal with Jigglypuff right?)

I've got nothing planned today, maybe I'll play P:M against some computers or something (any freezing issues? Like, should I not fight certain characters against each other), just to see what Sonic feels like so far.

No freezing issues on the last build. Just an error not including L-canceling on marth, ness, or lucas. That will be addressed in the next build which will be today or the next few days.

 

[Dark Sonic]

That's great news. A shortened homing attack would be easier to balance than an instant one. Maybe Leaf will mess around with it for me (I don't know how to use PSA)

As for the up B, I doubt it, since he currently doesn't go any higher when he cancels it than when he doesn't (he goes farther forward though, mostly because of being able to drift horizontally during and after the cancel). But who knows it could do something funky. If it does then I'd just give it up.

Oh, and by earlier cancel I'm not talking about any frame 5 cancels if that's what everyone is thinking about (frame 5 is when he leaves the spring <_<). I'm talking about top platform height on dreamland and battlefield kind of cancel, which is only a little lower than where he can already do it.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Blank, actually I haven't yet. Though if it's what I think it is (getting the downward momentum and angle of HA while charging a side B mid air) it sounds pretty awesome (probably TOO awesome, but hey we deal with Jigglypuff right?)

Yeah thats why I said we could limit it like Luigi's Melee tornado, and have it only instant every other time. Or every 2-3 times, or whatever interval we decide on. Either way it keeps it from being spammable. This solution keeps both the "homing" uses and turbo fall properties while inherently balancing both of them at the same time.

And no, it won't be side-B'ing mid-air with that angle lul(If you want that, support the IASA frames on Dair). It'll be the downward angle of homing attack, and then side-B canceling when you land/hit. You can then proceed to shield cancel and do a variety of things out of that.

The reason I like the instant+downwards angle is because its the best way to make it viable as an attack. The real "homing" attack has such a bad trajectory that even with a speed-up it'll only be most useful for recovery. Actually hitting people will be a pain.

Its also most similar to the games. Everyone likes that right?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Good point.

And I actually do support the instant homing attack in that form (with side B and down B cancel on ground collision). That would actually make it a pretty awesome movement tool.

Dash away->shorthop->reverse iHA->side B->grab? wtf MINDGAMES!

But I don't like the idea of it being a numerical limit. I think it would be much more effective to have it as a button activator. Like, hold down the button and you get a regular homing attack, but let it go quickly enough and get the instant one. Then, to keep instant HAs from being spammed, you could just give it a landing reset like Marth's side B. You have to land on the stage in a neutral position (or during an airdodge aka wavedashing/landing) for it to reset. Therefore you can't do things like iHA->spindash->jump->immediate double jump->iHA back to the ground indefinitely (cause come on, that's just stupid). And you wouldn't be able to iHA off stage over and over (though that's not really a problem anyway)

So, sound reasonable?

Btw, let's start it NOW. iHA will be the official acronym for instant homing attack. Nobody use anything else

 

[shanus]

I don't like the concept of alternating homing / non-homing, it's just not, clear so to say? Its like HAD in giving two moves in the same one instead of delivering one product which is incredibly functional.

A homing attack which has a fast start-up, homes, and gives whatever end option you want is far more appropriate I think. What is the end goal of what you would want out of a homing attack instead of throwing 8 different attacks from the same one?

A design can be simple and yield complex results instead of a complex design to falsely give complex results.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well, the thing is that Blank's instant HA is the more USEFUL of the two, it's just that I don't want to upset players who are accustomed to homing attack....homing in on the opponent (though with a terrible tracking system <_<).

Blank's iHA is a set angle, making it easier to aim consistantly. The fact that it is instant also makes it a very good surprise tactic. Add the ground cancel and you have an extremely versatile movement technique.

And to be fair, HA already comes with 2 versions. If your opponent is invincible or too far away to be homed in on it does the very thing that blank was advocating (the set angle HA). What's even worse is that the "normal" homing attack is terrible at picking targets in teams. It'll try to home in on your teammate if they're closest, or if the opponent is invincible on the release. iHA, while not the most canon, is the most reliable version.

If we're that worried about balance, why not just combine the ideas? Cut the startup lag of homing attack, but make it not home in (rather than simply skipping the startup entirely like Blank's version).

 

[Blank Mauser]

I don't like the concept of alternating homing / non-homing, it's just not, clear so to say? Its like HAD in giving two moves in the same one instead of delivering one product which is incredibly functional.

A homing attack which has a fast start-up, homes, and gives whatever end option you want is far more appropriate I think. What is the end goal of what you would want out of a homing attack instead of throwing 8 different attacks from the same one?

A design can be simple and yield complex results instead of a complex design to falsely give complex results.

The difference isn't really the speed, its the trajectory that aims for the back of the opponent. A sped-up homing attack with the trajectory it has now would only serve mild uses(Or maybe even the best use as far as recovery goes, which Sonic doesn't really need), while the downwards trajectory is immediately useful offensively. Its even more useful with the side-B cancel.

The only problem is what Dark Sonic mentioned, untouched its fairly spammable. But theres plenty of solutions to maintain it.

 

[shanus]

I'm not too worried about balance, DS, i was more worried about functionality, how to program it (it's an annoying move to deal with in PSA since its got some weird stuff going on). I'm guessing I can remove the cap on the timer, and instead do the following.

if your HOLDING B, it will not cancel the homing attack and it will go on as normal until the timer ends, then do the homing attack.

If your NOT holding B, it will cancel into the instant homing attack, but it disables the ability to use homing attack again until you land or something?

 

[Blank Mauser]

I'm not too worried about balance, DS, i was more worried about functionality, how to program it (it's an annoying move to deal with in PSA since its got some weird stuff going on). I'm guessing I can remove the cap on the timer, and instead do the following.

if your HOLDING B, it will not cancel the homing attack and it will go on as normal until the timer ends, then do the homing attack.

If your NOT holding B, it will cancel into the instant homing attack, but it disables the ability to use it again until you land or something?

Well the way Dark Sonic put it, basically when you land in a way thats not homing attack.

Which I kind of wonder about, because if you cancel side-B into shield, will that reset it? Because then you could just jump out of shield and do iHA again, making it only slightly less spammable.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well the way Dark Sonic put it, basically when you land in a way thats not homing attack.

Which I kind of wonder about, because if you cancel side-B into shield, will that reset it? Because then you could just jump out of shield and do iHA again, making it only slightly less spammable.

Actually, what I wanted for the reset is akin to Marth's side B, Mario's Cape, Peach's toad ect, ect.

You have to land in a regular landing animation (landing while doing nothing or landing during an airdodge to be specific). So landing during a homing attack, during an aerial, during a special, while in tumble, doing a no impact landing, ect, will NOT reset it. It's a fairly common reset mechanic.

So no Blank, canceling into shield will not reset it. The only way to reset it would be airdodge into the ground or just land normally.

In that way it couldn't be spamable, because somewhere in there you'd have to wavedash or empty sh to get your iHA back, during which time your opponent is free to escape and space themselves.

@Shanus, yes that's exactly what I want. I guess that's kind of a ***** to code though <_<

btw what is the status on getting these reset mechanics to function like melee? So far the reset mechanics that I know of are:

1. You're character must be standing in a neutral stand for at least 1 frame (used for grapple resets, and Mario and Dr.Mario's down Bs)
2. You're character has to land in a neutral positon (used for Marth, Roy, Mario, Dr. Mario, Kirby, and Mewtwo's side Bs, as well as Peach and Ice Climber's neutral Bs)
3. You're character has to do the move once on the stage (on the stage meaning the move ends with you on the ground, not that it has to be started on the ground). This is used for Luigi's down B.

I think most of these transferred over to brawl (the only one that didn't is Marth), but I'm listing them here just in case.

 

[shanus]

It's not a priority right now, but eventually when i get a chance to make it i will. Unless Blank wants to make a working demo of it using the latest B+ pac available

 

[JCaesar]

So the only characters with recoveries BETTER than his will be MK and Jigglypuff really (not even Peach. YEAH I SAID IT!)

My robot has a few harsh words for you...

 

[Dark Sonic]

It's okay, I forgot Rob existed (though really, I think Sonic is harder to edgeguard than Rob.)

Obvious bias is obvious though

@Shanus, sweet.

 

[jalued]

It's okay, I forgot Rob existed (though really, I think Sonic is harder to edgeguard than Rob.)

Obvious bias is obvious though

@Shanus, sweet.

not really if its only MAD.... robs edgeguard weakness was that he couldnt BAD during his (only) recovery

now no one can!!!

 

[JCaesar]

ROB's recovery has no weaknesses. Unlike every other character, he can choose when to attack out of his up-B, and can stall in his up-B to mess up the edgeguarders timing. He can also recover from higher or lower than any other character could dream of.

 

[jalued]

ROB's recovery has no weaknesses. Unlike every other character, he can choose when to attack out of his up-B, and can stall in his up-B to mess up the edgeguarders timing. He can also recover from higher or lower than any other character could dream of.

unless the opponent has better air priority..MK and marth come to mind

 

[JCaesar]

You can easily recover higher than Marth can reach.

MK ... yeah ... **** him. He edgeguards on a different level than anyone else.

 

[Dan_X]

LoL, JC, I love the avatar! Haha! Geez, whenever I say avatar now I think of James Cameron's Avatar. ;D

Also, in thinking about it more, the removal of BAD is a great idea (not that I was hugely against it before). AD in Melee wasn't a freebie. It wasn't always the best aerial option, especially when escaping combos. In addition, it will nerf characters off stage, as they won't be able to mindlessly AD. This is a good thing.

I played B+ for hours today with my friend. I was Jiggs versus his Toonlink. It's so annoying how when edge-guarding him he could effortlessly BAD through my offstage aerials, as it didn't matter, his recovery brings him up a long way. Obviously I can try punishing his recovery, which I did from time to time, but the fact that he could save his jump, FF through me, then jump and up+B is just so lame. In Melee being off the stage was far more risky, far more thoughtful, and tactical.

MAD is a good direction for P:M.

 

[Alphatron]

If the BAD was more punishable, then it wouldn't always be the best option in the air against combos.

 

[GP&B]

I think the problem is, you reach a point where you'll end up getting the same result as a MAD when nerfing BAD. Someone already mentioned FF->BAD with any high gravity character would allow for completely safe landings from above. Although it'd be silly, if you could force a landed BAD immediately cause a faceplant (effect of not teching during a tumble), that might make it less safe. I don't think it'd be enjoyable to program though.

 

[Alphatron]

If it's a pain to program then you guys don't have to do it. I still wouldn't compare a nerfed BAD to MAD due to the fact that the nerfed BAD would still allow you to act out of an AD...beyond using a tether.

 

[Dan_X]

I wouldn't bother nerfing BAD, as MAD alone is all we need.

 

[Sterowent]

so, what's the plan with ROB's recovery anyway? that's not a melee recovery there, man. that's in fact quite the contrary, isn't it?

will ROB be getting his thrusters drained faster, or maybe making his thrusters take longer to recover, or...? that ****'s gotta be weakened in some big way.

 

[shanus]

I'd like to open the opportunity to accept a few more "SKILLED MELEE PLAYERS" into the mix for feedback. Please send me a PM with preferably some form of proof as to your level of melee experience (vids would be nice).


Progress is coming along very well.

 

[Turazrok]

So you did take my suggestion!

Go on the melee boards, bubs.

 

[GPDP]

I'd like to open the opportunity to accept a few more "SKILLED MELEE PLAYERS" into the mix for feedback. Please send me a PM with preferably some form of proof as to your level of melee experience (vids would be nice).


Progress is coming along very well.

lol even if I had videos, I'm probably nowhere near good enough. Good to hear about progress coming along well, though. As long as we get a trailer soonish, I'll be satisfied waiting a while longer.

By the way, about tethers... even if you don't manage to make them stick to walls, will we at least be able to cancel them into a jump?