Project M Social Thread

[JCaesar]

My idea was to allow airdodge durring tumble, but if airdodge was hit durring hitstun you would be punished for doing it too early by an extra "X" frames of not being able to airdodge.
Achieved the same idea as NADT by forcing a timed airdodge rather than a mashed airdodge, but still would be better for those who complained by NADT. I doubt that could be possible though :\

Oh right, that was it I <3 fail windows.

I still think that's the best solution for Brawl+, however I think P:M would be better off with just MAD.

 

[Kix]

I'm more awake and you know how much I love you.

 

[Alphatron]

I know how to do it now, but its not really needed anymore.

If you have the free time, could you make this code? Even if it isn't needed for brawl+ anymore, I want to try it out for personal use. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

 

[Plum]

Oh right, that was it I <3 fail windows.

I still think that's the best solution for Brawl+, however I think P:M would be better off with just MAD.

Whether or not Veril would agree with that at this point in the game is another story. A change like that could be considered too radical when we want to stabalize, even if it would be great for the game >.>

I haven't been able to play P:M (or B+ for that matter) in a long while because of issues with my own Wii, but I showed it to some Melee players over the weekend. It was almost unanimous that plain MAD would be better, even if only for making combos more dangerous to escape with an airdodge. There's no denying that a Brawl's airdodge is hugely powerful when it comes to combos/strings. I'll get some of my own and their thoughts on what's been done since I played it last for you Shanus tonight, assuming I finish my school stuff in a timely manner. I don't want to rush a wall of text

 

[Alphatron]

It wouldn't be that radical considering the fact that it was the intended change at the time but simply wasn't possible.

 

[Rikana]

It wouldn't be that radical considering the fact that it was the intended change at the time but simply wasn't possible.

This.

And giving out one more set to stabilize it won't do any harm. Because in the end, if everyone likes it.. well not everyone because there's always gonna be someone who has a suggestion and such. Anyways, In the end, you probably don't even need another set after it because everyone liked the set that was meant to stabilize.

And also. Give Brawl+ Charizard some love, please?

 

[NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT]

This is something I actually want to probe on more.

Do people want the BAD ability removed? I believe it might help in addressing a current minor issue of the HAD not starting movement till frame 2.



In fact, I'll make a code with BAD removed to test out!

some of the pro melee players from puerto rico (name on my sig O.o)

didn't like the aspects of Brawl+ cause:

Easy Mode
Hitstun in certain moves were not feeling right
"That doesn't combo" Brawl AD >.>

so, melee2.0 won't be easy mode if I'm following the thread right, and the hitstun will be more on the attacks rather than just the code, and... with the removal of BrawlAD P:M will be the THING!

 

[Alphatron]

Last we knew, hitstun was tied to knockback. And knockback was tied to damage. Shanus has been a code ninja so far though.

 

[NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT]

so hitstun will be based on knockback, but how about character specific hitstun?

to my understanding Fox/Falco in melee suffered inmense amount of hitstun and the COntroller rumble freaks out in those moments

Luigi, Peach and samus did not suffered that much hitstun, but lets see how this thing goes

cause I want the MAD code ... I wish if I could only have the MAD code in the workings, and the New wavedash animations to polish it

 

[Shadic]

Some of those are actually my job. Luigi and Olimar, at least.

Unfortunately, I'm insanely busy over the next two and a half weeks.

 

[shanus]

Well the landing animations are all fixed, shadic
just the freefall needs work, add kirby to that list

 

[Shadic]

You guys already did that? I guess that's less work for me.

..Kirby freefall? I hadn't even thought about that.

 

[DarkDragoon]

:D I have no school next week. Yesssss.

x_x I can't wait...

And omg I'm soooo good at modeling/animation now. I want some importers ****it. I'm sick of animating in BrawlBox.
-DD

 

[CountKaiser]

Wasn't the reason that Fox, Falco, and Falcon were susceptible to combos due to their own individual gravity bringing them down so low before they could do anything? From what I've tested long ago, that seems to be the case.

 

[Dai Tian]

I was much more interested in having a HAD in the game compared to the MAD on its own but it wouldn't hurt to try out a version without the BAD. If in the end it makes a better game it'd be worth it I guess.

I'm not sure if something has been done about it, but what ended up happening with the situation where if you hit someone on your way up with your UpB you'd auto-snap to the ledge like you did in vBrawl?

 

[ValTroX]

The only problem I see with BAD removed is that sometimes you try to tech on stage and you bounce off, resulting an AD off the stage and instant death, with BAD, you could still act after doing it.
@NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT:
De donde eres(Pueblo)?

 

[GPDP]

I'm not sure if something has been done about it, but what ended up happening with the situation where if you hit someone on your way up with your UpB you'd auto-snap to the ledge like you did in vBrawl?

They removed it in Brawl+ some time ago. Obviously it won't happen in P:M either.

About foregoing HAD and straight-out implementing MAD... I'm not sure what I think on the matter concretely just yet. Part of me wishes for BAD to stay, since it does have benefits, and the higher gravity would nerf it in several ways.

However, if ever we gain the ability to tether onto walls... then having a non-directional MAD rather than a BAD would be awesome. In Melee, I loved going off the stage with Link, using a neutral airdodge, then hookshotting the wall and canceling it immediately, grabbing the ledge, then ledge-jumping into a fair or dair. Felt good man.

 

[Rhubarbo]

This is something I actually want to probe on more.

Do people want the BAD ability removed? I believe it might help in addressing a current minor issue of the HAD not starting movement till frame 2.



In fact, I'll make a code with BAD removed to test out!

I think the MAD code should exclusively be used. Iirc on how it works, the HAD is essentially useless in facilitating offensive play as people can still attack out of a neutral air dodge.

I think the only reason Brawl+ didn't use the Melee air dodge was because people were pestering the creators for making "Melee 2.0." Now that the Brawl advocacy fad has died off, and us Melee proponents can "come out of the closet", I think the best thing to do with Project M is structure it to mimic Melee as close as possible.

Too list some more input:

One of the many gripes I've had with Brawl+ is the speed of the shield. It comes out way too fast, and you can practically attack right out of it. Project M should have shield properties exactly like in Melee. Melee's shield system was perfectly balanced.

Regarding hit stun; as long as combos are possible with the incorporation of the altered physics, that is all that matters. Test the game, if it plays too sluggishly, amp up the hitstun universally. If then it becomes grossly unbalanced due to a total offensive paradigm shift, begin looking at move specific reductions for hit stun.

 

[Rhubarbo]

The only problem I see with BAD removed is that sometimes you try to tech on stage and you bounce off, resulting an AD off the stage and instant death, with BAD, you could still act after doing it.
@NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT:
De donde eres(Pueblo)?

The same problem existed in Melee iirc. Perfecting your teching skills should prevent that happening though.

 

[ValTroX]

The same problem existed in Melee iirc. Perfecting your teching skills should prevent that happening though.

Yes, but when you are at a high percent it's REALLY hard, and believe me, teching was one of my virtues those days

 

[jalued]

The only problem I see with BAD removed is that sometimes you try to tech on stage and you bounce off, resulting an AD off the stage and instant death, with BAD, you could still act after doing it.
@NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT:
De donde eres(Pueblo)?

thats just a learning curve though, only happens at low level play. Never see M2k or mango doing that...

 

[shanus]

I need to modify the shield endlag for sure. Modifying power shielding to work like melee's will be difficult, though. I'll put shields as my next thing to do after finishing HAD/MAD/SJSHDJHDJHDJHADs

 

[Rhubarbo]

Yes, but when you are at a high percent it's REALLY hard, and believe me, teching was one of my virtues those days

I almost exclusively play Melee, and I've never had any problems with teching. Is the code in buggy when used in Brawl or something?

 

[ValTroX]

nah, I don't think it's buggy, I meant in melee. It didn't happen to me often, but when it did, it was kinda annoying. I have nothing against the removal of BAD though, cause if MAD worked fine in Melee, why wouldn't it on P:M. I was just stating something that happened and that BAD was able to correct.

 

[GPDP]

I need to modify the shield endlag for sure. Modifying power shielding to work like melee's will be difficult, though. I'll put shields as my next thing to do after finishing HAD/MAD/SJSHDJHDJHDJHADs

Speaking of modifying shields... will characters slide as a result of the PS like in Melee? Or will they stay in place like in Brawl?

Also, if you manage to remove shield buffering (that is, powershielding will only occur by timing the button, like in Melee), will you keep the same powershielding window as in Melee? I ask because I remember way back in the day, when we first got the shield codes for Brawl+, most people seemed to clamor for a more lenient window for powershielding attacks (though powershielding projectiles would stay at a low window). The only reason we didn't do that was because of shield buffering, as well as the fact that we couldn't separate the windows for attacks and projectiles.

So, to summarize my questions:

- Will powershielding cause a slide?

- Will the window for powershielding projectiles and attacks be separated?

- If they are separated, will the windows stay the same as Melee's once shield buffering is taken away? If not, how will they be modified?

 

[shanus]

Also, I want people to realize that >>none<< of the old MAD/HAD codes are being used because they simply weren't good. I know most people know this, but people need to know these codes are being written from scratch and are being viewed frame by frame comparisons to melee to best mimic as well as possible.


@G, I'll answer those questions when i figure out how LOL

 

[ValTroX]

Shanus, would you include Rob's tumble on the next trailer? I want to see how that turned out
Edit: It wasn't tumble, it was freefall I think xD

 

[GPDP]

@G, I'll answer those questions when i figure out how LOL

Of course. Take your time.

Nevertheless, I think this should be discussed. I myself believe the powershielding mechanics in both Melee and Brawl are inadequate.

Melee's powershield window for attacks was too low, thus rarely would people try to powershield, and when a powershield happened, it took people by surprise. Then there's also the slide, which almost ensured you wouldn't be able to capitalize on the powershield, even if you anticipated it. I've no qualms with the projectile powershielding, though.

Meanwhile, Brawl's powershield is too easy to perform, even with Brawl+'s lowered window, due to shield buffer. Obviously, when shield buffer is finally removed, the window WILL have to be raised. However, since there is only one window for both projectiles and attacks, raising the powershield window will make powershielding projectiles TOO easy, as well as TOO powerful if they manage to make it reflect projectiles. So this window will have to be separated like in Melee.

My ideal powershielding system would have a window for attacks a little bit higher than Melee's (maybe by a frame or two), without the slide (like in Brawl), no shield buffering, and with a lower window for projectiles that would also reflect them (most likely the same window as Melee).

Thoughts?

 

[ETWIST51294]

I'm against using the HAD. If you didn't notice this would also remove gay air camping for some characters(Wario ).

edit: I want PSing to be exactly like Melee's. Thats how it should be imo.

 

[GPDP]

I want PSing to be exactly like Melee's. Thats how it should be imo.

Why? I think it can and should be improved upon. At least get rid of the stupid slide oh wait it's already removed lol just don't add it back in.

 

[Wind Owl]

What if we kept HAD, but BAD ate all your jumps and you couldn't AD again afterwards (until you were hit)?

 

[NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT]

The only problem I see with BAD removed is that sometimes you try to tech on stage and you bounce off, resulting an AD off the stage and instant death, with BAD, you could still act after doing it.
@NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT:
De donde eres(Pueblo)?

ps tipo soy de aguada Puerto Rico

lol, didn't knew you were from Puerto Rico or a latino :O

sup :XD

 

[Alphatron]

Did melee's shield come out slower than brawl's? It never felt that way to me. The big thing was just the lack of shieldstun and how safe the shield was in vbrawl.

 

[Wind Owl]

It didn't come out slower but shield drop was way slower. I think it's only 2 frames in Brawl.

 

[Alphatron]

Yeah, I thought so. I noticed a few people talking about how it came out too fast or regenerated too fast. After playing melee again, the only thing I noticed was the massive difference between shield stun. I would never notice the shield growth rate though, due to me not abusing the hell out of the shield in that game.

 

[Kix]

This is random, but is it possible to make rolling and spot dodge closer to smash activation input so that you can more freely direct shield without doing one on accident?

 

[NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT]

Did melee's shield come out slower than brawl's? It never felt that way to me. The big thing was just the lack of shieldstun and how safe the shield was in vbrawl.

I was a fan od the debug code since I saw SuperDoodleMan in action and

the Shield came in 1 frame, when you play frame by frame perfect, and your opponent lasser's you with falco/fox or any other projectile, you can just shield when the Missile is in your face and you had the powershield reflecting the projectile

Edit:

ninja'd

 

[ETWIST51294]

Why? I think it can and should be improved upon. At least get rid of the stupid slide oh wait it's already removed lol just don't add it back in.

Because that's.. Melee. xD The sliding is okay, it didn't effect much. It got you out of shield pressure a lot actually.

 

[a nub]

yehz, the lack of brawl air dodging in any way, shape, or form sounds good to me

As for powershielding, I'll agree with making it exactly the same as melee, or to whatever extent that's possible. The lenient ps window in barlw is just stupid, kids can ps wtf lol.

 

[Dai Tian]

What if we kept HAD, but BAD ate all your jumps and you couldn't AD again afterwards (until you were hit)?

If it's possible I'd really like this idea. Or at least for this idea or something along these lines to be tested. There's no reason not to, especially when it hasn't been seen how the heavier gravity affects the BAD.