Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[Red Arremer]

It's a scrub's tier list, guys. Don't poop your pants over it.

 

[Clai]

Fox in Brawl.

Too hard to control.

Also Peach in low tier makes me giggle.

 

[Feels]

That list made me lol.

Anyway, if I were to make a Tier it'd look something like...

S Tier:
1: Meta Knight
2: Snake
3: Diddy Kong
4: Wario
5: Falco(might switch with IC)
6: Ice Climbers

A Tier:

7: Marth
8: King Dedede
9: Olimar
10ikachu
11: Mr. Game and Watch
12: ROB
B Tier:

13: Kirby
14: Lucario
15: Zero Suit Samus
16: Toon Link
17: Pit
18: Peach

Too lazy to do the other tiers.

 

[humble]

That list made me lol.

Anyway, if I were to make a Tier it'd look something like... A list of characters ranked by how tourney viable they are.

lulz.

Oh, and does anyone else think DK will suffer another drop next list? That ape gets HARD countered, as in an unwinnable matchup, so DK loses a ton of his tourney viability to that.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Well, my tier list pretty much just reflects how I think everything will end up in a while

S: Meta knight, Diddy Kong, Snake, Falco, Ice climbers, Marth
A: Wario, King Dedede, Zero Suit Samus, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucario, Pikachu, Pit
B: Donkey Kong, Peach, Kirby, Olimar, Robot, Toon Link, Wolf, Fox, Sheik
C: Luigi, Bowser, Ness, Pokémon Trainer, Lucas, Ike
D: Link, Captain Falcon, Samus, Mario, Sonic
E: Yoshi, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Ganondorf

I was bored -_-
A tier is crowded because I think A tier characters all have potential

 

[Feels]

lulz.

Oh, and does anyone else think DK will suffer another drop next list? That ape gets HARD countered, as in an unwinnable matchup, so DK loses a ton of his tourney viability to that.

Lol.
I do think DK will drop, Dedede ***** him hard. Anybody else think he's C Tier?

 

[Jski]

Too many in S i think S should be for only thoughts who are just simply way above every one else mk and snake only in other words. Mk is well mk he can just about do any thing! Snake a bit diffrent in that he cant be cg or even combos that well with his cray kill power. Simply put i do not see how other chaters can even line up with on the same level.

 

[Wulfy07]

I kinda think S Tier will look like that too... [maybe a different order] with Wario ontop of A tier



P.S. An Excellent Diddy wont subside to someone just throwing their bananas back... its alot more involved than you think

tbh i dont understand how even on the diddy board's and everywhere else diddy seems to have alot of matchup disadvantages... yet Diddy does so well... diddy has alot of potential, and if you look at this thread...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

You will see that Diddy does very well in tournaments, thats why he deserves to move up in the S Tier...

Yeah, that would be about 1 spot if anything. But your argument looks invalid because I could say that PT should move up because PT does so well in tournaments in AL, Georgia. It's a bit more than the tournament scene, it's also about theorycraft, etc. Diddy doesn't deserve to be much higher in the S tier than 4th. I will admit that his tournament wins will place him over Falco as third, but he really doesn't deserve it. (Then again, Falco and Diddy is a tough call and I have a preference to the bird, but whatever. I'd argue Falco since in that particular match up, Falco has the advantage.)

 

[FaWa]

DK will move down, but not that much. I hate DeDeDe mains that do that, but does that change that they exist? Does it change the fact that they have an urge to win so much that they must use cheap tactics to own certain characters? No. Same with Meta, and same with a lot of others.

 

[adumbrodeus]

DK will move down, but not that much. I hate DeDeDe mains that do that, but does that change that they exist? Does it change the fact that they have an urge to win so much that they must use cheap tactics to own certain characters? No. Same with Meta, and same with a lot of others.

Play to win.


You do anything else, you do a disservice to the metagame by not illustrating it's influence in the metagame and instead letting it fester and looking down on the people who are doing what you should be doing. We need people to do everything in their power to win, otherwise new tactics are not uncovered, and counters to formally overpowered tactics are uncovered.

 

[bigkoose]

I definitely think MK and Snake should have their own tier.

 

[FaWa]

Play to win.


You do anything else, you do a disservice to the metagame by not illustrating it's influence in the metagame and instead letting it fester and looking down on the people who are doing what you should be doing. We need people to do everything in their power to win, otherwise new tactics are not uncovered, and counters to formally overpowered tactics are uncovered.

I'm not resorting to using cheap tactics to have an unfair advantage. I don't even main DK, or any other character that gets killed by DeDeDe, but if Brawl players are that determained to win, I'm really losing faith in the community.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm not resorting to using cheap tactics to have an unfair advantage. I don't even main DK, or any other character that gets killed by DeDeDe, but if Brawl players are that determained to win, I'm really losing faith in the community.

What is unfair?


Honestly, what makes it unfair? It violates no rules (except where it's banned), what differentiates it from the million other techs that give various characters bad MUs?


It's your personal honor code, which most people don't share and have no intention of sharing, so why are you disrespecting people for disagreeing with your honor code?

Sure, it's your personal decision, but where I come from, that's disrespect, that's saying to your opponent, "you're so weak, I don't even need to use everything I have to win", and a lot of people will feel the same way. And you're the one hurting the development of the metagame by making it more difficult to find out what techniques are banworthy.


People like DMG and Pink Shinobi should be applauded for playing like that, they're doing what competitive gamers should do, the honorable thing, giving their opponent their all.

 

[Clai]

What is unfair?


Honestly, what makes it unfair? It violates no rules (except where it's banned), what differentiates it from the million other techs that give various characters bad MUs?


It's your personal honor code, which most people don't share and have no intention of sharing, so why are you disrespecting people for disagreeing with your honor code?

Sure, it's your personal decision, but where I come from, that's disrespect, that's saying to your opponent, "you're so weak, I don't even need to use everything I have to win", and a lot of people will feel the same way. And you're the one hurting the development of the metagame by making it more difficult to find out what techniques are banworthy.


People like DMG and Pink Shinobi should be applauded for playing like that, they're doing what competitive gamers should do, the honorable thing, giving their opponent their all.

It's a cultural thing. No matter how effective defensive play is, people are always going to think that it's completely against the spirit of a fighter to run away and never take any risks. How can people think that these type of people are 'giving it their all' when the only thing they're doing is abusing a single strategy that is nearly unpenetrable? People are always going to complain about effective attacks (Remember how much complaining there was about the tornado?) because it gives the impression of diminishing skill, regardless of whether that's true or not.

"Cheap tactics" have the effect of centralizing the metagame because of how effective they are. People are going to complain about them because of the shear amount of players resorting to using those tactics. I mean, why would people take the time and effort to surpass these tactics with "honest" play if they can just abuse these tactics and raise the chances of winning tenfold? Unless these tactics break specific rules, though, they are going to be part of the metagame. It's unfortunate that characters' tournament viability is dashed because of a single tactic that either actually requires minimal skill or just looks like it, but that's the nature of fighting games.

These people are probably spoiled by what Smash64 and Melee brought them and they expected Brawl to be the same. No matter which way they view it, though, it's a scrub mentality. While I'd never personally applaud DMG and Pink Shinobi for what they do, as long as running away is a viable strategy, I respect them for taking this strategy to its limits. If you really want people to change their minds about using cheap tactics, find a way to beat it and make the strategy unviable. That's the only way that people who play to win will ultimately change.

 

[Chuee]

This is a competitive game. We do what we can to win.

 

[Pete278]

And yet by simply banning DDD's infinite on DK, he becomes hugely more viable. Do you want to obey Sirlin's writing to the letter and make certain characters in a game unviable, or do you want to ban that one thing, letting DK and the other infinited characters, and still leaving DDD as a very good character? Playing to win should be done, obviously, but if something can be done to make more characters viable and thus make the metagame more diversified and interesting, it should.

 

[DMG]

We don't/shouldn't follow his every word as law, however the argument of "well I don't think it will hurt anything" when it comes to banning stuff is the wrong attitude to approach. We could ban Ganondorf, because banning him would have reasonably no negative impact on the metagame, but we don't. Why?

Because we are supposed to ban things when they are too good, not when banning them wouldn't "leave a scar" lol. If your criteria is simply to improve character viability, trust me MK and maybe even Snake would have been banned a LONG LONG time ago lol.

We ban characters/things when they make EVERYONE ELSE or MOST everyone else look like Poop. Does Dedede's CG make everyone, or almost everyone, look like Poop? No, it doesn't.

 

[adumbrodeus]

And yet by simply banning DDD's infinite on DK, he becomes hugely more viable. Do you want to obey Sirlin's writing to the letter and make certain characters in a game unviable, or do you want to ban that one thing, letting DK and the other infinited characters, and still leaving DDD as a very good character? Playing to win should be done, obviously, but if something can be done to make more characters viable and thus make the metagame more diversified and interesting, it should.

Again, the arguement there boils down to "why not"?

And while we're at it, why not eliminate fox's CG problem, without the pikachu issue alone, he'd be viable (not as much as with sheik's gone, but still).


You could say that about a number of characters, why stop with DK?


Because we don't perform MU surgery.

 

[Pete278]

It makes Luigi, DK, Samus, etc. infinitely harder to play in a large tournament because of the possibility of playing against DDD and instantly going to the loser's bracket. If it were -just- DK, I'd agree, but there's too many characters impacted by it, in my opinion.

 

[adumbrodeus]

It makes Luigi, DK, Samus, etc. infinitely harder to play in a large tournament because of the possibility of playing against DDD and instantly going to the loser's bracket. If it were -just- DK, I'd agree, but there's too many characters impacted by it, in my opinion.

...

No.

lrn2mashout.


Proper button mashing wins against that till about 130.

 

[Pete278]

In that case, its the most poorly named infinite ever. Sorry about that, I had only read about it on DK, assumed it was the same for the others.

 

[DMG]

You cannot take away the viability of a character if they do not posses it to start with. Samus, Mario, Luigi, Bowser, these are characters that are hardly viable, if at all. DK is the only character with a somewhat reasonable viability claim, and even then our goal isn't to improve SLIGHTLY the viability of a single character.

On DK, the infinite is more powerful/less loopholes/escapes for the other character. On Mario/Samus/etc, he has to pummel every so often to maintain staleness properly on his infinite. This pummel is very slow/takes a lot of time, and allows characters to mash while being held to escape from his grab before he can throw again.

 

[adumbrodeus]

In that case, its the most poorly named infinite ever. Sorry about that, I had only read about it on DK, assumed it was the same for the others.

Nah, it's a true infinite, after 130... It's just not a 0-death, and people assume infinite=0-death.


Not true, but often the case. Against any good player of those characters who knows the MU, the infinite exists of course, but it's useless to the point that it's irrelevant.


Of course they're not viable anyway...

 

[BSP]

Personally, I don't think it'll matter even if the infinite gets banned or not. The matchup is still pretty bad for DK, and the other characters still have other matchups that give them some problems.

I don't think it's bannable, but it won't really make a difference IMO. Plus, if we ban D3's, we won't see the end of the "ban this too" arguements.

 

[LooftWaffles]

The whole DK argument is a moot point, really.


DDD owns DK without the chaingrab. Let alone the infinite.

For the same reason that pika loses to marth, DK loses to DDD.

Its all about range

 

[MasterCheeze]

Did I post in the wrong thread or something? WHAAAAAT, I gotta get my glasses before I start posting.

Edit: Now that I'm more oriented, you can't say DK loses to D3 because of RANGE, LooftWaffles. Without the infinite it would be the regular chain grab and walking chain grab. Without chaingrabs at all the matchup is pretty much even.

 

[phi1ny3]

Give DK a sword, preferably something suited to his size like a claymore or a two-hander

now D3 has a reason to worry about DK w/o infinite.

 

[Shaya]

DK has:
Wario
Falco
Meta Knight

to worry about.
Wario ****s over DK in a similar fashion to D3. People forget these things.
D3 may be more viable without D3's infinite, but he still wouldnt be TOP OF THE METAGAME or near it either.

 

[Ripple]

falco does not destroy DK like so many people believe. at worst its 60-40

DK only has 3 bad match ups

DDD
wario
MK

however they are either terrible or more terrible

 

[phi1ny3]

Yar that was a major hype session.

I still think he should hold bottom of B, merely because his traits surpass normal "inviable" characters imo, and kind of borders around that bad area anyways where it's required to have a secondary pretty much.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Dk sucks. Discussion has ended.
*bangs gavel*
Lets move on to Pikachu who i swear Kid has a fetish for.

 

[Jupz]

Pikachu has some good kill setups and a devestating chaingrab that affects many high tiers (MK to an extent, snake, D3, Falco). Good recovery as well as good manouverability make him hard to hit and therefore hard to kill - although if he does get hit by a kill move he dies easily due to his low weight. Has poor range on all attacks except Fsmash, leading to some bad matchups in characters with higher range (Marth, MK). Small grab range and below average traction make it hard to get grabs. Decent matchups across S and A tier. Good selection of counterpicks and few bad stages. Dtilt is a good, fast poke leaving you with many options afterwards, even if shielded (such as grab, slide backwards->Fsmash, retreating full hopped tjolt). Good juggler. QAC, though punishable, allows him to get around the stage quickly, adding to his manouverability. Dsmash can be easily SDIed out of but still gets people away from pikachu and can eat up spot dodges. Good throws. Projectile that can deal with planking relatively effectively, and forces a reaction from the opponent. Lacks a fast out of shield option with good range. Can perform well in both fast and slow paced matches, depending on the matchup. Is rarely at a disadvantage due to stage positioning as he has good mixups on the ledge, good recovery. He can sometimes be juggled though.

I think he will be overtaken by IC's but could also overtake G&W, leaving him in the same position he started in.

 

[phi1ny3]

Great juggle game too.

 

[Astartes]

When is the new tier list actually coming out

 

[DanGR]

Pikachu's chaingrab only works at very precise percents. You can just camp a platform during the small window he has to grab you if you can't avoid it/take damage from other attacks normally. <.<

 

[MetalMusicMan]

falco does not destroy DK like so many people believe. at worst its 60-40

^^ This ^^

I think it's about 55:45 Falco, like you said though no worse than 60:40 for sure.

 

[arcane9211]

That list made me lol.

Anyway, if I were to make a Tier it'd look something like...

S Tier:
1: Meta Knight
2: Snake
3: Diddy Kong
4: Wario
5: Falco(might switch with IC)
6: Ice Climbers

A Tier:

7: Marth
8: King Dedede
9: Olimar
10ikachu
11: Mr. Game and Watch
12: ROB
B Tier:

13: Kirby
14: Lucario
15: Zero Suit Samus
16: Toon Link
17: Pit
18: Peach

Too lazy to do the other tiers.

I like most of it.


I made a rough tier list of my own with 8 tiers, although some of the tiers aren't necessarily in order.

Metaknight
Snake

Diddy
Wario
Ice Climbers

Falco
Dedede
Marth
Olimar
Rob

GW
Lucario
Pikachu
DK
Kirby
Pit
ZSS

Toon Link
Fox
Wolf
Peach
Luigi
Mario
Shiek/Zelda
Ike
Bowser

Lucas
Ness
Yoshi
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer

Samus
Jigglypuff
Link

Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

 

[ShadowLink84]

LOL.
I mean...that tierlist is fine

 

[Jski]

I still think the best stragly to wining a game is to some how disconnected your opones controller in the mide of a fight but make it look like its there own fault. I mean if you realy want to play to win there more then just on the game to play!
Any way i do not get why zss so looked down on still her game is good a lot better then some of the others who are higher that are more of one trick type (though the one trick can be crazy strong).

 

[arcane9211]

LOL.
I mean...that tierlist is fine

Sorry to disappoint you and Sonic.

Although if it helps you sleep better Sonic is the one character I have the least amount of experience with/against, so he could (probably) only move up for me.