Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[Kewkky]

Even if Sheik can't really chaincamp Ganon, if Ganon gets hit by an ftilt, he's pretty much done for. It can lead to an easy gimp if people time their ftilts so that they can get maximum damage, then end with a combo finisher which would send Ganon offstage (dthrow>fair?), then needle and ledgegrab, and if he comes back to the stage, grab and throw back offstage. This should be the scenario for a lot of Ganon/Sheik matches. : |

 

[phi1ny3]

Ganon has one advantaged MU apparently after what I heard:

Spoiler

WA smash

.

 

[DoonKoon]

How is Ganon's grab a threat to Ics, Adum?

 

[smashkng]

How is Ganon's grab a threat to Ics, Adum?

Maybe pivot grab? It has very good range (which includes disjoint). Just because of his poor range of standing grab it doesn't mean that includes pivot grab.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Maybe pivot grab? It has very good range (which includes disjoint). Just because of his poor range of standing grab it doesn't mean that includes pivot grab.

I'm sure the matchup is still impossible 'cause ofice block and blizzard camping.

 

[DoonKoon]

Can't the othere Ics just hit out of it?

 

[CRASHiC]

DDD just asks a Snake player to approach the game completely contradictory to every reaction and notion they have built upon.

Go to Florida and try to approach. Guaranteed you that HRNut has tried that already. That boy would approach with Olimar lamo.

 

[Kewkky]

Can't the othere Ics just hit out of it?

Yes they can, which is why Ganon can't do anything. If Ganon ever miraculously pulls off a grab, or gets a choke, the other IC will hit him out of whatever attack he does. It's not like he gets super armor or anything to increase his attacks' viabilities in this MU.

If anything, just see it this way... Ganon has to work to inhumane heights to gain a stock advantage over ICs, and ICs don't even have to play at their best to take a game from Ganon. This is true.

 

[adumbrodeus]

How is Ganon's grab a threat to Ics, Adum?

Separates them.



Granted, it isn't much, but it forces some kind of reaction.

 

[MarKO X]

A
B
C
D
E
F - Falcon
G - Ganondorf

Falcon wins.

 

[Cold Fusion]

Ganon has one advantaged MU apparently after what I heard

Ganon sucks so hard that even Ganon hard-counters Ganon.

 

[DoonKoon]

Actually I think it's Falcon who has one advantage MU, not Ganon.

Craptain Failcon has a 60:40 on Ganon.

 

[orange/xd]

I though Ganon vs. CF was around even? guess not

 

[smashkng]

I think it's 50/50 or 45/55 Falcon or Ganon. They can't approach each other lol. Whoever approaches most loses. They can also gimp each other. It's basically that Falcon has more mspeed, but Ganon has slightly more range, more power and more priority. And it is exception. Captain Falcon's shieldstun sucks so much that even with Ganon's garbage grab range you can shield grab him.

 

[DMG]

Falcon beats Ganon.

 

[smashkng]

Falcon beats Ganon.

I think it's stage dependant, but do you have any reasons?

 

[DMG]

Because Falcon is the better character and he wins the matchup, even if it is 55:45.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Falcon's n-air says hi to Ganon..

 

[adumbrodeus]

Because I discovered that Ganon's dtilt isn't safe on block.

 

[DoonKoon]

Well, I think it's because Ganon requires proper spacing to gimp with tipman, since, Falcon's Up B outbeats any of his aerials, whereas Falcon could just fair Ganon away not having to worry about Ganon's Up B (Falcon has a Uair out of it iirc). And, sometimes Falcon can recover back on stage after being gimped TWICE, Ganon can not, as if it wasn't harder having to space it already.

Both chars can punish about any moves thrown at them, but I think Falcon has it easier since Ganon's are more laggy, and cause of a 4 frame faster move. He can also jab > grab, whereas Ganon can just grab.

Both their KO potential are about the same here? Cf might have it easier, he survives longer, gimps better, and knee + bair has never been any safer.

 

[Kewkky]

Knee isn't safe on block either. :D

Buth characters are really bad. If there was some form of cancelling technique in this game like Melee's L-Cancelling, Falcon and Ganondorf would skyrocket out of the bottom of the lists. But, sadly, Brawl doesn't have any techs like that... : /

Ganondorf is still the worst.

 

[mountain_tiger]

If anything, just see it this way... Ganon has to work to inhumane heights to gain a stock advantage over ICs, and ICs don't even have to play at their best to take a game from Ganon. This is true.

Come to think of it, the ICs wouldn't even need to know how to infinite chaingrab to have a considerable advantage. Provided they can desync camp well, Ganon's options are severely limited, and just about anyone can do the DThrow chaingrab which takes him to about 80%. The infinite merely makes it go from really bad to horrifically bad.

Ganondorf is definitely worse than Captain Falcon, no questions asked. Since Ganon only has two or three moves faster than reaction time (one of which, his grab, is ludicrously short-ranged), against most opponents Ganondorf can only win if they make mistakes (which obviously isn't common at high levels of play). At least Captain Falcon has a decent jab to cover some options.

 

[smashkng]

Falcon's moves are extremely unsafe on block, as they have extremely low shieldstun. It's worse than Ganon's safety on shields (though also unsafe). Unsafe on miss is another thing, though many of Falcon's moves are unsafe on miss.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

Go to Florida and try to approach. Guaranteed you that HRNut has tried that already. That boy would approach with Olimar lamo.

i do lol, my Oli, is mad aggressive LOL

 

[Anaky]

I thought the new tier list was supposed to be released on the 4th of december? Whats the hold up and when will it be released?

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I thought the new tier list was supposed to be released on the 4th of december? Whats the hold up and when will it be released?

GET.OUT.

It's called "fooling". Basically some1 from the Back Room lied to ya to teez us. When is the next list comin'? How the **** should ANYONE know?

 

[Xebenkeck]

Dude haven't you read any BRoomers posts, most are saying it won't come ou till sometime next year, some say as late as the spring.

 

[TheRockSays]

WHY DOES FOX HAVE TO APPROACH?!?! XD

Sorry but you guys keep putting it in case senerio where Fox approachs.... he outcamps her.

its pretty simple if you dont approach ZSS will and thats not very good for you because your gun fails against the plasma whip. On top of that you need to keep ZSS pressured because DSmash is only one move its no guaranteed we are going to catch you in the move. Its a game anything can happen.

 

[.Marik]

Mostly Spadefox is saying it will come out around the spring of 2010. Just wait, the changes will most likely be minimal.

 

[Anaky]

Well ok but i wouldnt exactly call it teasing, whats there to tease its only a tier list xD, i was just wondering cuz i dont rly read this stuff as u now know.

Anyway ive read the 1st post and i think its near enough right for A tier a S tier, although personally i think this is S and A tier in no particular order.

S Tier
Metaknight, Diddy & Icies
A Tier
Snake, Falco, Marth & Wario

Although Icies and Diddy are high, i think its really hard to become consistant with them, mk is mk, i think he'll always be top, and the chars i mentioned in A tier and pretty much characters that dont require as much consistance as diddy and icies, but can be as good, idk if Wario is all that hard, but i defo think he should be up there.

I also think ROB should be in B tier, hes pretty underated IMO.

 

[Kewkky]

I think S tier should consist of Metaknight, Snake, Diddy, Wario, Marth and Dedede (in no particular order).

ICs should be top of A since it's harder to maintain an advantage at top levels of play (keep Nana alive) since everyone knows IC's weakness (camping and killing Nana), and everyone else follows them in a whatever order. I can't really make an A tier since I'll be biased with my 2 mains (who should both be/remain A tier'd), but if I feel a need sooner or later then I'll give it a go. Probably gonna make it full of the characters who have the 2nd highest chances of winning tourneys, but who have it clearly easier than the ones in B tier and lower.

 

[Chuee]

No falco in S tier?

 

[Kewkky]

No falco in S tier?

Whoooopsies, forgot that Falco existed. :D

Well, my S tier would have to consist of MK, Snake, Diddy, Falco, Marth and Wario. DDD would then fall to top of A with ICs as runner-up captains (I wanna keep the S tier to 6 characters, 7 makes it look too big). I don't believe in MK and Snake having a tier of their own, just put them both at the top of every tier list and that should be good enough.

 

[Kofu]

DDD shouldn't be S Tier.
His infinite is really only devastating for one character that otherwise might be good (DK).
His matchups are fairly mediocre when compared with other characters in S Tier.

 

[Kewkky]

DDD shouldn't be S Tier.
His infinite is really only devastating for one character that otherwise might be good (DK).
His matchups are fairly mediocre when compared with other characters in S Tier.

Hey, it's MY opinion of what S tier looks like, not yours.

And even with bad MUs, he shouldn't be looked down upon because of that. Have you played a top-level DDD? They are the most annoying thing that I have ever fought. Having a throw that does 16-17%, as well as a chaingrab on lots of people, that ridiculously long-lasting bair, a number of good AND reliable kill moves, a hard-to-gimp recovery (5 jumps and an upB with super armor), a projectile that has a chance of killing (Waddles who have a mind of their own and an occasional Gordo), survives for TOO long (regularly reaches 200+% if played properly), and who also has an inhale to beat out attacks/shields/take a stock and maintain his lead or end a game if he has a stock lead, it might not look good on paper, but all of it in a match is just amazingly good. The only character that really bothers him is ICs, but who DON'T they bother?

 

[Wulfy07]

I hoped that DeDeDe and Wario would drop to A tier, but seeing as how Ally got booted from winterfest by a DeDeDe, he'll probably stay. I won't say he deserves it (by the way, his up B recover *is* usable, but you have to aim for the edge otherwise be punished, and if you always aim for the edge, edge hog wins, so eh... not really a + in my book)

Wario doesn't cut it as S tier material in my book. Top of A with DeDeDe as close follow, but since I don't doubt Dedede will stay there, he might too...

I defintely know Marth doesn't deserve S Tier. High A is even debatable because I think IC deserves it more, and in my perfect world of Wario Dedede and IC at the top of A, Marth would be about mid A.

For the S tier, I would still recommend Falco over Diddy, but that's probably preference. They might be equal or something, not really sure on who's better there, but...eh... another day perhaps.

 

[DMG]

I think Dedede can be A tier, and Marth 1 spot over him in S tier.

For the upper echelon of the tier list, edge grab limits/anti planking rules do affect who should be where pretty significantly. For example, with no edge grab limit, Falco would be much lower. Dedede would be A tier somewhere for sure, G&W would be higher, IC's would not be able to breach S tier any time soon, Marth would be top 5, etc.

 

[Vurky]

I dont know if this has been said but lucas' horizontal recovery is awesome (Magnet pull) and you forgot something from vertical recovery, zap jump.

 

[orange/xd]

^Yes, we know.

 

[Vurky]

^Didn't really have time to read 144 pages XD