Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[Metakill]

marth deserves to be S tier
DDD and Wario will be A tier
ICs 4th o 5th in S tier
my top tiers will be

S tier
Metaknight
Snake
DiddyKong
ICs
Falco (marth)
Marth (falco)

PD:
with falco i really don't know if are better or not that Marth.

 

[GreenFox]

Falco has worse matchups than Marth but I do not have info on tournie results so I can not say but I really think if Falco is in S tier why isnt marth?

Most likely marth will switch places with D3.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Imo, the only characters that should be in S-tier are MK, Snake and Diddy. These three characters are clearly a step above the rest.

 

[HeroMystic]

Not going to bother reading 145 pages of bleh especially since it's back and forth arguments. What I will say is that I think Mario being in C-Tier is wrong. He should be in A D-Tier.

It's almost 5 AM and I'm tired, so I'll add more thoughts to this later, as well as other stuff.

 

[★J.G WentWorth★]

marth deserves to be S tier

Na chill yo

Imo, the only characters that should be in S-tier are MK, Snake and Diddy. These three characters are clearly a step above the rest.

qft.

 

[tuestresfat]

1. I highly doubt Diddy will overtake MK as the best character in the game.

2. Yea the IC's CG is pretty terrifying.. You overrate their camp game though, their projectiles aren't that good... but yea the de-synched blizzard wall can be pretty annoying. Overall snake can definitely take them, and there are a lot of snake mains out there.

3. There are just too many things you can do with snake's ability to control the stage(s) that you can't just factor out human error like you did. People will always make mistakes because snake mains are always changing up their strategies. Snake's nades are one of the best projectiles in the game which means many characters will be forced to approach, and I don't think I need to discuss what he can do when you're up close...

4. Marth has a "solid recovery"... ???

 

[HeroMystic]

It's almost 5 AM and I'm tired, so I'll add more thoughts to this later, as well as other stuff.

Now, going back a few pages, I see Pierce pretty much left the thread, so there's no use asking him why exactly Mario is considered C-Tier for him, but as for me, he's a D-Tier character, for now.

I've already done a very heavy analysis on Mario way back when, and even now nothing has changed. While his metagame is not at a halt, it's pretty easy to realize that Mario isn't a broken character (minus shenanigans you can do with the cape and fludd) with a plethora of options like Diddy and Snake. He does have answers for just about every character except DDD, but thing is these "answers" are often not very strong ones due to his natural limits that cannot be bypassed, just covered. Just about half the characters in C, and the large majority in B, A, and S can handle the same situations in a similar manner to Mario, just better. This can't be overlooked when handling Mario's placement. He's quite literally the middle-man character, heavily emphasized by the fact he has the most even match-ups in the metagame. And I think that's enough to say on that.

----

As for people saying Diddy could be the best character in the game: Why? Are you treating him like Melee Fox, where at his fullest potential he's an unstoppable beast, but no one will -ever- get to that potential? Lets be serious here, Diddy has obvious weaknesses. His banana game is awesome, but it's coin sided by obvious facts.

-His Bananas can be caught, picked up, and used against him.
-His air game is average, alot of characters outrange and outspeed him, and bananas can only flinch in the air.
-A gimpable recovery that usually can be done by a disjointed attack, and then there's the large cooldown between Up-Bs.

Diddy being the potentially best character in the game is outrageous, same with Falco, although he's more believable. I also don't believe Diddy is S-tier material. He should be A-tier, probably at the top.

I don't see IC being S-tier either. There's many attacks that zone them and separate them, and once separated it becomes an uphill battle to resync or to SoPo. There's not much else to say on this, because that's their biggest hinderance and should really be the only reason why they're not S-tier.

Lucario should be B-Tier. He's definitely not a C-tier character, especially with his Aura shenanigans and damage control. He's also a pretty good gimper, and can rack up damage pretty quick when he's behind. That makes match-ups with him very tense because they can never take a break. Lucario can easily come back and he can also keep the lead if he does have one.

Ike's placement is correct, but the synopsis is misguided. It's been said a 1000 times over in this thread, so I won't bother saying it again.

Link can potentially rise to E-tier. He has alot of force to reckon with, but generally it's agreeable that his recovery is just too exploitable for any character besides a given few. I do believe his KO ability is overlooked. U-tilt, F-tilt, D-Smash, F-Smash, Up-B, and N-air are all decent kill moves with U-tilt for me being the most useful kill move. Link's main problem outside of his recovery is his damage racking and generally having no answer to being comboed besides SDI.

4. Marth has a "solid recovery"... ???

Marth's recovery while telegraphed is hard to punish due to his disjointed range and aerial speed. DI for the most part will always allow him to make it back on the stage. His Up-B is also really hard to contest due to it's incredibly speed and ledge snap. Despite this though, Marth can be gimped and is vulnerable offstage, especially when projectiles are put into play. It's solid, but not great.

 

[humble]

1. I highly doubt Diddy will overtake MK as the best character in the game.

2. Yea the IC's CG is pretty terrifying.. You overrate their camp game though, their projectiles aren't that good... but yea the de-synched blizzard wall can be pretty annoying. Overall snake can definitely take them, and there are a lot of snake mains out there.

3. There are just too many things you can do with snake's ability to control the stage(s) that you can't just factor out human error like you did. People will always make mistakes because snake mains are always changing up their strategies. Snake's nades are one of the best projectiles in the game which means many characters will be forced to approach, and I don't think I need to discuss what he can do when you're up close...

4. Marth has a "solid recovery"... ???

1. He won't.

2. They are decent projectiles, kinda meh.

3. I have always contested this. Snakes grenades, in my opinion, are way overrated. They suck as projectiles, because of one simple number; 3. If you can count to 3, you have officially defeated Snakes projectile game because they run on a timer, going to 3 seconds, at which time you can spotdodge. Whether or not they threw the grenade, that is the exact time it will explode, and you will be safe. Powershield it, airdodge it, roll, spotdodge, do whatever you want because you know exactly when it will be coming. Of course it is much better when used up close because he can force you to take other options at the time of explosion, but as a projectile, they suck.

4. Fast, quick ledge snap, he can stall for a second with dancing blade to prevent ledge camp, and it is disjointed. Overall a solid recovery.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Of course it is much better when used up close because he can force you to take other options at the time of explosion

Hi, this is exactly why Snake's grenades are excellent and why he is so difficult to safely approach if he has a percent lead.

 

[Albert.]

Diddy stuffs:

I don't mean to be rude but you have obviously never played an excellent Diddy.

It's kind of terrifying, to be honest.

-GOOD LUCK using their bananas against them. If you do manage to trip him you should also know that Diddy has the least lag time for a trip in the game. Most character's match-up advice is "throw them UP" because trying to throw at him will only give him the banana back.
-His air game is NOT average. It is exceptional. His Fair trades hits with Marth's Fair, for example. (IIRC)
-Diddy's recovery IS gimpable sometimes... but he still has plenty of options at all times and you're very unlikely to get him in a bad position like that if they're competent.

 

[DMG]

Marth Fair spaced well beats Diddy Fair. Diddy Fair comes out about the same time as Marth's Fair IIRC.

His airgame overall is not that good. It's above average, but it's not comparable to great aerial characters.

 

[Albert.]

Marth Fair spaced well beats Diddy Fair. Diddy Fair comes out about the same time as Marth's Fair IIRC.

ah ok, thanks for clarifying that.

 

[Nefarious B]

I don't think there's an aerial in the game that beats Marth's fair horizontally except maybe MKs

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I don't think there's an aerial in the game that beats Marth's fair horizontally except maybe MKs

Ike's fair

Link and Samus's Zairs.

 

[smashkng]

Diddy lacks air speed, so he hasn't the best air game.

 

[BSP]

And he lacks the range to make up for it. His air game isn't exceptional, just average or a bit above.

 

[SGF rocker]

Where do u think donkey kong will honestly end up??? And diddy is def behind MK snake and wario. Diddy should be top A tier. I'm hoping donkey kong tho moves to the top of b tier.

 

[HeroMystic]

I don't mean to be rude but you have obviously never played an excellent Diddy.

Excellent? Maybe not. Tourney viable? Yes. You underestimate Diddy's setbacks which are exploitable.

Throwing bananas up are the same as using them against him. I do the same, but I also mix it up by throwing it at him. No one cares that he has the least trip frames, the window of opportunity is exceptional and can be taken advantage of.

And I won't be a fool and say all Diddys play the same way, but I'll be ****ed if I say Diddy's stage control is as good as Snake's. And then comes the fact that his match-ups aren't exactly S-tier level.

 

[Conti]

marth deserves to be S tier
DDD and Wario will be A tier
ICs 4th o 5th in S tier
my top tiers will be

S tier
Metaknight
Snake
DiddyKong
ICs
Falco (marth)
Marth (falco)

PD:
with falco i really don't know if are better or not that Marth.

I kinda think S Tier will look like that too... [maybe a different order] with Wario ontop of A tier

Excellent? Maybe not. Tourney viable? Yes. You underestimate Diddy's setbacks which are exploitable.

Throwing bananas up are the same as using them against him. I do the same, but I also mix it up by throwing it at him. No one cares that he has the least trip frames, the window of opportunity is exceptional and can be taken advantage of.

And I won't be a fool and say all Diddys play the same way, but I'll be ****ed if I say Diddy's stage control is as good as Snake's. And then comes the fact that his match-ups aren't exactly S-tier level.

P.S. An Excellent Diddy wont subside to someone just throwing their bananas back... its alot more involved than you think

tbh i dont understand how even on the diddy board's and everywhere else diddy seems to have alot of matchup disadvantages... yet Diddy does so well... diddy has alot of potential, and if you look at this thread...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

You will see that Diddy does very well in tournaments, thats why he deserves to move up in the S Tier...

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

marth deserves to be S tier
DDD and Wario will be A tier
ICs 4th o 5th in S tier
my top tiers will be

S tier
Metaknight
Snake
DiddyKong
ICs
Falco (marth)
Marth (falco)

PD:
with falco i really don't know if are better or not that Marth.

its kind of hard to say marth deserves anything when these characters are consistently out placing him.

 

[smashkng]

And where is Wario?

 

[Turbo Ether]

S-tier should consist of characters that win tournaments, imo.

 

[HeroMystic]

P.S. An Excellent Diddy wont subside to someone just throwing their bananas back... its alot more involved than you think

Why do people seem to think "using bananas against Diddy" only means just throwing them back?

tbh i dont understand how even on the diddy board's and everywhere else diddy seems to have alot of matchup disadvantages... yet Diddy does so well... diddy has alot of potential, and if you look at this thread...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

You will see that Diddy does very well in tournaments, thats why he deserves to move up in the S Tier...

Because his banana game is more player-induced than character-induced. They're stage controlling projectiles that demands the opponent to pay attention to the entire stage rather than just Diddy himself. In other words, his victories stem from the players. This isn't to say his disadvantages aren't justified, they could very well be advantages if discussed thoroughly, but people in general seem to overestimate Diddy and underestimate the ones behind the controller.

Although, since you do bring up his tournament ranking, and since that does affect tiers, I will admit he does have justification to S-tier, but he will most definitely never be the best character in the game.

 

[rpgfighter]

This isn't going to be to in depth but here it goes.

Dk will go down.

Ness will go up abit.

GandA will go up.

Wario will go down abit.

Rob can go eitherway.

Idk about anyone else.

 

[Conti]

Why do people seem to think "using bananas against Diddy" only means just throwing them back?



Because his banana game is more player-induced than character-induced. They're stage controlling projectiles that demands the opponent to pay attention to the entire stage rather than just Diddy himself. In other words, his victories stem from the players. This isn't to say his disadvantages aren't justified, they could very well be advantages if discussed thoroughly, but people in general seem to overestimate Diddy and underestimate the ones behind the controller.

Although, since you do bring up his tournament ranking, and since that does affect tiers, I will admit he does have justification to S-tier, but he will most definitely never be the best character in the game.

never said that he is... actually ever since diddy was 10th on the tier list ive been saying he will one day be 3rd... and i think it will happen...

and as for snake, he is the same way... stage control... and you are right about the underestimation thing... like it doesnt make sense, how can a character that supposivly has a bad matchup or even against the entire S Tier and A Tier be outplacing them in tournys...

Like in my Opinion the characters that Diddy has a Clear Disadvantage is...
MK, Snake,

the Characters that its a disadvantage yet i see diddy's outplace them all the time is...
Peach [is a bad matchup for sure]
Falco [is do-able]
Marth [is do-able]
Wario [is do-able]
Luigi [i honestly dont think its that bad you just have to really change your playstyle for him]
and more...

look at the thread... http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237408
dont make sense... 2 good matchups, the rest are even/bad or not discussed [most of the ones not discussed are lower tier and most prob are good matchups]

and im not even a really good diddy [im pretty decent lol but i have HUGE lack of matchup exp, but i see pleny of vids for when i have to verse that character to see], i only just started the tournament scene... but its just i see whats goin on and i dont get it...

so yea thats my 2 cents

 

[★J.G WentWorth★]

I'm pretty sure R.O.B's never going up ;(

 

[stingers]

nah son i'm winning pound 4 with rob

 

[Albert.]

its kind of hard to say marth deserves anything when these characters are consistently out placing him.

That's just not true...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

That's just not true...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

Ah yes how can i forget that threas.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

I think if Marth goes up, DK will go up with him - even matchups with Marth and Snake and winnable (though not even) matchups with Diddy and MK should put him near the top of B tier. DDD is still horrible, and Falco is still hard (but not as bad as DDD lol)

 

[Moozle]

Edit: totes the wrong thread lol...

 

[pkmntrainer12]

My Tier List

HIGH TIER

S
1 MetaKnight- No questions asked
2 Snake- Most annoying character in Brawl
3 Falco- has a lot in his disposal
4 Marth- Speedy attacks and range
5 King Dedede- Best Chain-Grabber and can KO at low %

A
6 Diddy Kong- Agility and high-priority attacks
7 Wario- I dont know what it is, he is just really good
8 Pikachu- Easily spammed moves that are very strong
9 Ice Climbers- Virtually impoosible to succesfully grab
10 Toon Link- In my opinion, has the 2nd best aerials (behind MK) and has good projectiles
11 Pokemon Trainer- Most versatile character in Brawl and surprisingly underused

MID TIER

B
12 Lucario- Moves have ridiculous range and priority
13 Fox- Very fast attacks. Would be higher, but he is so fast its almost too hard to control
14 Olimar- Pikmin are just annoying
15 Kirby- the most average character in Brawl in my opinion

C
16 R.O.B.- Has great range on all of his attacks
17 Lucas- He is like a harder-to-use version of Toon Link
18 Luigi- f-Smash is ridiculous and Up-B aswell
19 Wolf- Most of his moves can be used in immediate succession
20 Mr. Game and Watch- By far the weirdest character I have ever seen anywhere, but very effective

D
21 Zero-Suit Samus- Very fast attacks with excellent range
22 Pit- Great at dealing damage, but lacks in finishing
23 Donkey Kong- If he had a projectile, he would easily be HIGH TIER
24 Ness- A downgraded version of Lucas
25 Sonic- Worst comboer in the game but is the fastest character

LOW TIER

E
26 Shiek- Very fast attacks but easily killed
27 Ike- One of the strongest characters in the game, but has a bad recovery and is easily damaged
28 Peach- She is a horrible finisher
29 Yoshi- I would love to put him higher, but he lacks an Up-B recovery which severly hurts him
30 Mario- Slow attacks and bad recovery
31 Zelda- Good projectiles and reflector, but is easily killed
32 Bowser- Heaviest character makes him easily hit by smaller characters (which is basically everyone)

F
33 Captain Falcon- Easily ledgeguarded and rather slow attacks
34 Link- Easily 0-KOed by most characters because of his awful recovery
35 Samus- Has a bad close combat game
36 Ganondorf- I literally flipped a coin between Ganondorf and Jigglypuff
37 Jigglypuff- I literally flipped a coin between Ganondorf and Jigglypuff

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

My Tier List

HIGH TIER

S
1 MetaKnight- No questions asked
2 Snake- Most annoying character in Brawl
3 Falco- has a lot in his disposal
4 Marth- Speedy attacks and range
5 King Dedede- Best Chain-Grabber and can KO at low %

A
6 Diddy Kong- Agility and high-priority attacks
7 Wario- I dont know what it is, he is just really good
8 Pikachu- Easily spammed moves that are very strong
9 Ice Climbers- Virtually impoosible to succesfully grab
10 Toon Link- In my opinion, has the 2nd best aerials (behind MK) and has good projectiles
11 Pokemon Trainer- Most versatile character in Brawl and surprisingly underused

MID TIER

B
12 Lucario- Moves have ridiculous range and priority
13 Fox- Very fast attacks. Would be higher, but he is so fast its almost too hard to control
14 Olimar- Pikmin are just annoying
15 Kirby- the most average character in Brawl in my opinion

C
16 R.O.B.- Has great range on all of his attacks
17 Lucas- He is like a harder-to-use version of Toon Link
18 Luigi- f-Smash is ridiculous and Up-B aswell
19 Wolf- Most of his moves can be used in immediate succession
20 Mr. Game and Watch- By far the weirdest character I have ever seen anywhere, but very effective

D
21 Zero-Suit Samus- Very fast attacks with excellent range
22 Pit- Great at dealing damage, but lacks in finishing
23 Donkey Kong- If he had a projectile, he would easily be HIGH TIER
24 Ness- A downgraded version of Lucas
25 Sonic- Worst comboer in the game but is the fastest character

LOW TIER

E
26 Shiek- Very fast attacks but easily killed
27 Ike- One of the strongest characters in the game, but has a bad recovery and is easily damaged
28 Peach- She is a horrible finisher
29 Yoshi- I would love to put him higher, but he lacks an Up-B recovery which severly hurts him
30 Mario- Slow attacks and bad recovery
31 Zelda- Good projectiles and reflector, but is easily killed
32 Bowser- Heaviest character makes him easily hit by smaller characters (which is basically everyone)

F
33 Captain Falcon- Easily ledgeguarded and rather slow attacks
34 Link- Easily 0-KOed by most characters because of his awful recovery
35 Samus- Has a bad close combat game
36 Ganondorf- I literally flipped a coin between Ganondorf and Jigglypuff
37 Jigglypuff- I literally flipped a coin between Ganondorf and Jigglypuff

many problems.
1: diddy will be #3
2okemon trainer way way to high. charz is mid tier character and ivy would be bottom 3 so he is not moving up this much
3:toon Link to high
4:fox to high
5:Mr G&W to low
6:wolf,luigi, and lucas all to high
7: DK to low
8: pit i think is to low
9:bowser to low
10:Falcon to high
11: ganon is the worst
those cover most of the big problems in your list imo

 

[The_Altrox]

My Tier List

HIGH TIER

S
1 MetaKnight- No questions asked
2 Snake- Most annoying character in Brawl
3 Falco- has a lot in his disposal
4 Marth- Speedy attacks and range
5 King Dedede- Best Chain-Grabber and can KO at low %

A
6 Diddy Kong- Agility and high-priority attacks
7 Wario- I dont know what it is, he is just really good
8 Pikachu- Easily spammed moves that are very strong
9 Ice Climbers- Virtually impoosible to succesfully grab
10 Toon Link- In my opinion, has the 2nd best aerials (behind MK) and has good projectiles
11 Pokemon Trainer- Most versatile character in Brawl and surprisingly underused

MID TIER

B
12 Lucario- Moves have ridiculous range and priority
13 Fox- Very fast attacks. Would be higher, but he is so fast its almost too hard to control
14 Olimar- Pikmin are just annoying
15 Kirby- the most average character in Brawl in my opinion

C
16 R.O.B.- Has great range on all of his attacks
17 Lucas- He is like a harder-to-use version of Toon Link
18 Luigi- f-Smash is ridiculous and Up-B aswell
19 Wolf- Most of his moves can be used in immediate succession
20 Mr. Game and Watch- By far the weirdest character I have ever seen anywhere, but very effective

D
21 Zero-Suit Samus- Very fast attacks with excellent range
22 Pit- Great at dealing damage, but lacks in finishing
23 Donkey Kong- If he had a projectile, he would easily be HIGH TIER
24 Ness- A downgraded version of Lucas
25 Sonic- Worst comboer in the game but is the fastest character

LOW TIER

E
26 Shiek- Very fast attacks but easily killed
27 Ike- One of the strongest characters in the game, but has a bad recovery and is easily damaged
28 Peach- She is a horrible finisher
29 Yoshi- I would love to put him higher, but he lacks an Up-B recovery which severly hurts him
30 Mario- Slow attacks and bad recovery
31 Zelda- Good projectiles and reflector, but is easily killed
32 Bowser- Heaviest character makes him easily hit by smaller characters (which is basically everyone)

F
33 Captain Falcon- Easily ledgeguarded and rather slow attacks
34 Link- Easily 0-KOed by most characters because of his awful recovery
35 Samus- Has a bad close combat game
36 Ganondorf- I literally flipped a coin between Ganondorf and Jigglypuff
37 Jigglypuff- I literally flipped a coin between Ganondorf and Jigglypuff

Sigh... you had to post this again? This seems to simplistic to be reasonable imo

 

[humble]

ivy would be bottom 3

no, Ivy wouldn't be as ****ty as Ganon Jiggs or C falcon if she was a stand alone character. The fact that she has an advantage/even matchup against snake should alone put her higher. Her weaknesses get overestimated and her strengths underestimated; granted, she still sucks pokeballs, but not as much as people seem to think. Horrible character? yes. Bottom three? Hell no.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

no, Ivy wouldn't be as ****ty as Ganon Jiggs or C falcon if she was a stand alone character. The fact that she has an advantage/even matchup against snake should alone put her higher. Her weaknesses get overestimated and her strengths underestimated; granted, she still sucks pokeballs, but not as much as people seem to think. Horrible character? yes. Bottom three? Hell no.

ivy is at least as bad as Link.

 

[FaWa]

Jigglypuff is better then Ivy.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

Olimar that low? WTF?

 

[FaWa]

Olimar that low? WTF?

His whole list is WTF. Just waaallkk away slooowwwlllyyy.

 

[Alphicans]

I like his criteria for fox and GaW. Made me lol big time.