Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[-Ran]

In a head to head match up, at least Captain Falcon could run away from Ganon for eight minutes. >>

 

[DanGR]

Low tier tournaments are useful to show who is better among the low tier, but it's only a minor thing to even consider for the tier list.

Side tournaments should never be considered. <_<

 

[smashkng]

Falcon sucks and hard. Turbo Ether don't think Falcon can win in low tier tourneys, something that Ganon can't either. Forget that. And Falcon has HIGHER learning curve than Ganon due his really really small hitboxes (that's why I cannot play Falcon). Falcon is too slow at racking damage, due his terrible moveset as Amazing Ampharos said. Ganon is EXTREMELY chaingrabbable, but so is Falcon. Some chain grabs like Pikachu hurts Falcon more, and every single known chain grabs not only works on Ganon, but Falcon as well.

 

[Vermanubis]

God, there's so much pedantry in here. It's so easy to overestimate Ganon's abilities until you use him at high levels, lol. People still insist on arguing that Falcon is worse than Ganon, despite Ganon having the match-ups he does. Does anyone bother to consider that he has those kinds of match-ups for a reason?

Also, Smashkng, Falcon gets CGed by a lot of people, but Ganon lets tilt locked the worst out of anyone in the game. See: Sheik.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Falcon sucks and hard. Turbo Ether don't think Falcon can win in low tier tourneys, something that Ganon can't either.

You don't know what you're talking about. Let's ignore that Ally wins low-tier tournaments in my region every weekend with Captain Falcon. Let's also ignore that Yes places in the top 5 with Captain Falcon in my region, whenever he enters low tiers.

I'm not saying Ganondorf should be in bottom tier by himself specifically because he can't do anything in low tier tournaments. I'm saying that the fact that Ganondorf isn't even viable in low tier tournaments is a testament to how awful he is. Stop misconstruing this. Taking the standard metagame into consideration, Ganondorf clearly has overall worse matchups than Captain Falcon does.

 

[smashkng]

Like Fox gets 30-deathed by it because he is too light. And is Boss so good that he can beat Ally's Falcon with Mario that easily? I never said Ganon didn't suck, I said he is not that much worse than Falcon who has no advantage matchup at all and lots of 35/65 or 30/70 matchups. That are also terrible matchups. And it has no sense to hide the fact that Falcon is very, very susceptible to chain grabs just like characters like Ganon, Wolf, Falco or Fox.

 

[humble]

I think that the difference for the two characters is unimportant because everyone knows they are the bottom two worst in the game, and Ganon simply is a little bit worse. His weaknesses are simply too greatly accentuated for it to be covered by his mediocre strengths. Ganondorf has no projectile- not inherently a weakness so much as a lacking of a tool that he desperately needs. Gandorf has no speed- he can't chase anyone anywhere on the stage and he cannot pressure or follow. Ganondorf has no approach- he can't do anything to a shielding opponent except use his tiny tiny grab, or murder choke which is spot dodged on reaction. Ganondorf has good qualities certainly and I respect the players that use him, but never mistake their skill for his capabilities- he has none, and he handicaps the player who uses him. Again, CF sucks too.

 

[Kewkky]

I am lol'ing at this conversation... You guys are actually arguing over who the worst character of the game is, instead of the usual "X character should be higher/lower!", because you guys want your characters to be the lowest...

This is gold. *sits back and munches on pop-corn*

Spoiler

Ganon is the worst. He has nothing on no one, CF can at least hold his own against other characters due to his quick attacks. Anyone can evade most of Ganon's attacks on reaction, but CF can surprise some people like Ganon will never be able to do

 

[phi1ny3]

Captain falcon can do more even if his approaches are bad, like he doesn't risk as much from crossing up.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Side tournaments should never be considered. <_<

They should at least have some consideration for the lower end of the tier list.

Lets say Ike was winning low tier tournaments everywhere, in that sense people could say he ***** low tier, except Samus, which would at least give some support to him being above the characters below him.

Low tier tournaments should not be the end of all debates of who should be higher of course.

 

[Clai]

Prove this, please.

Neither Ganondorf nor Captain Falcon are getting past Metaknight's defensive game any time soon; Metaknight clearly shuts both characters down equally bad, regardless of Falcon's better mobility. The difference is that assuming the MK player gets read and Ganon/Falcon can take the offensive, Ganondorf can actually do things to Metaknight, unlike Captain Falcon, due to the fact that Ganondorf can set up comboes far easier than Falcon can.

God, there's so much pedantry in here. It's so easy to overestimate Ganon's abilities until you use him at high levels, lol. People still insist on arguing that Falcon is worse than Ganon, despite Ganon having the match-ups he does. Does anyone bother to consider that he has those kinds of match-ups for a reason?

Also, Smashkng, Falcon gets CGed by a lot of people, but Ganon lets tilt locked the worst out of anyone in the game. See: Sheik.

I use Ganondorf at high levels of play. I know exactly what I'm talking about. As for the matchups, they are heavily misconstrued because too many people simply assume that Ganondorf gets beaten in the high levels of play without bothering to test whether these beliefs are even true. Where do you get your ideas, anyway? Do you even play as Ganondorf?

In regards to getting tilt-locked, Fox and Wolf say hi (in regards to getting boned after the tilt happens, I know Ganondorf is far easier to start the chain, but the space animals get it the worst after the lock begins).

Taking the standard metagame into consideration, Ganondorf clearly has overall worse matchups than Captain Falcon does.

Without looking at the match-up charts, which reek of bias (specifically our matchup chart), I'd heavily debate about whether Falcon or Ganon have it worse against the characters that matter.

 

[Vermanubis]

I use Ganondorf at high levels of play. I know exactly what I'm talking about. As for the matchups, they are heavily misconstrued because too many people simply assume that Ganondorf gets beaten in the high levels of play without bothering to test whether these beliefs are even true. Where do you get your ideas, anyway? Do you even play as Ganondorf?

In regards to getting tilt-locked, Fox and Wolf say hi (in regards to getting boned after the tilt happens, I know Ganondorf is far easier to start the chain, but the space animals get it the worst after the lock begins).


Without looking at the match-up charts, which reek of bias (specifically our matchup chart), I'd heavily debate about whether Falcon or Ganon have it worse against the characters that matter.

As do I. As do several of the Ganon mains that have posted in this thread thus far enforcing his tier placement. But you certainly could've fooled me of your credentials by thinking Ganondorf's match-ups are misconstrued. I tend to find it difficult to believe that every character specific board's match-up chart here is plagued with mass delusion and bias over Ganondorf.

And in case you didn't read most of the conversations thus far, Ganondorf has been used in high levels of play and cannot, statistically, compete even in low-tier tournaments without a lot of trouble and tribulation. Also yes, I'm very aware that Fox and Wolf get tilt-locked, but not nearly as badly. Ganon gets ftilt locked by Sheik up to 100% regardless of DI. As a Fox secondary/third/fourth/whatever, I know for a fact that Fox can escape much, much earlier.

Let's recapitulate on why Ganondorf is nonviable in any way, shape or form:

Mobility:

People grossly underestimate the damage this does to him. He can't surprise people, he can't retreat, he has a tough time getting back up from ledges, he can't land safely, he has a below average spot-dodge and has no hope of approaching with said speed. Consider the massive boon speed like Falcon's truly is. Ganondorf gets juggled, locked, CGed and gimped easier than almost any character in the game. Ganondorf needs to be able to defend his personal space to stand a chance and against characters like Snake and most of the cast, he can't. Not to mention characters with projectiles. Falcon can at least get to them quickly so they can't spam you to death. If Ganon tries to jump, he'll just get punished. So his option 99.8% of the time is a powershield approach.

Moveset:

Ganondorf is a behemoth. We all know this. But what good are these moves if your opponent has to approach you directly for them to work? If you try to run at someone doing anything as Ganondorf, they won't fall for it 9 times out of 10. But with Ganon's power comes massive ending lag. He has no way to attack directly in front of him without being heavily punished (fair) and no way to attack behind him against smaller characters (bair won't autocancel). Due to him only have a select few viable moves in real battle, most of his moves stale extremely quickly. Keeping dair, uair and ftilt fresh is not easy, as they comprise most of your options. He has not grab game whatsoever unless you're within *****es touching range. Below average range and mediocre priority. And lastly, no OoS game. Thanks to Ganon's slow roll and movement/jumping lag, if an opponent gets too close, you're **** out of luck and have to let yourself be hit, pretty much.

As a Ganondorf mainer you should know that the only thing Ganondorf has at all is power. He got the short end of the stick on everything else. Falcon, on the other hand, has decent power, but almost zero of the same problems Ganondorf has to the same degree. The world does not suffer from mass delusion regarding Ganondorf's match-ups, nor tier placement.

I love Ganondorf. And I do not believe he is totally hopeless by any means. But I do believe he belongs right where he is right now.

 

[Kitamerby]

Dammit Clai! Stop being Clai! We know you're right, but let the boys have their fun! G is for Ganondorf!

 

[Browny]

In a game where people have no intention of making the game enjoyable for either player, I think ganon is bottom.

however I truly find it hard to believe that falcon is better than ganon. simply because ganon has a few moves which force you to block, because trading hits can end if your attack getting outright beaten (fsmash does like 24% uncharged or something?) and clashing with something like dash attack is never a good idea, it KO's at respectable %'s. With the risk of taking these hits, sometimes you shield, and then you get side b'd.

Im not saying fsmash or DA are legitimate moves to counter approaches or anything, but does falcon have anything which can actually make the opponent worry about attacking him? plenty of characters share a similar trait, trading hits with them is often beneficial, but they make up for it in other aspects. IMO none of falcons redeeming features over ganodorf make up for the fact that ganon has a variety of attacks which can KO <100 if he predicts an action, one which he can force if the enemy makes a mistake, and humans make mistakes. Falcon may be able to punish more often but it gives the enemy a considerably less risk/reward to work with. People would much rather take damage than lose a stock, a defining difference between the two imo.

 

[Vermanubis]

In a game where people have no intention of making the game enjoyable for either player, I think ganon is bottom.

however I truly find it hard to believe that falcon is better than ganon. simply because ganon has a few moves which force you to block, because trading hits can end if your attack getting outright beaten

All of Ganon's moves are incredibly easy to punish and 90% of them are easily shieldgrab-able. Spot dodges are even worse for Ganon.

(fsmash does like 24% uncharged or something?) and clashing with something like dash attack is never a good idea, it KO's at respectable %'s. With the risk of taking these hits, sometimes you shield, and then you get side b'd.

Dash attack rarely kills below 120% fresh. That and like I said before, spotdodging ***** side-b. Side-b shouldn't really ever be used unless the person is landing, rolling or experiencing ending lag. But while weighing risks, side-b does very little damage and tech chasing involves risk as well for Ganondorf. Ganon's worst nightmare as a techchaser is standing DI. If the opponent stand DIs, that puts you in trouble unless you predict it and you have to weigh predicting incorrectly.

Im not saying fsmash or DA are legitimate moves to counter approaches or anything, but does falcon have anything which can actually make the opponent worry about attacking him?

Does Diddy? Do most lighter characters in general? Diddy's a lot better than DK, but I worry a lot more about approaching/attacking DK than I do Diddy.

plenty of characters share a similar trait, trading hits with them is often beneficial, but they make up for it in other aspects. IMO none of falcons redeeming features over ganodorf make up for the fact that ganon has a variety of attacks which can KO <100 if he predicts an action, one which he can force if the enemy makes a mistake, and humans make mistakes.

The only attacks Ganon have that kill below 100% are fsmash and dair and those are only against a handful of character, if completely fresh. I like to think I'm a seasoned Ganondorf and I rarely kill talented players below 130%. Everybody has the potential to be deadly, but Ganondorf's isn't practical. As for forcing mistakes, the only move I can think of that would force a mistake is dair, in which case Ganon has to approach for it to work. Any character with a decent spacing move will never get hit by a dair unless they are completely ignorant to the match-up.

Falcon may be able to punish more often but it gives the enemy a considerably less risk/reward to work with. People would much rather take damage than lose a stock, a defining difference between the two imo.

Aye, but in a realistic setting, one who knows the Ganondorf match-up will never put themselves in a situation to be hit by Ganondorf. Captain Falcon's strengths, as I said before, don't rely solely on the ignorance of the other player. Ganon's strengths are few and far between and they rely on successive stupid moves by your opponent.

Ganondorf's immense power looks nice prospectively, but once you notice that he can't even deal with being razor-leaf/needle/PK fire camped, you begin to realize that his power doesn't do him a whole lot of good as people think. If the other person knows the match-up, Ganon simply will not win, 95% of the time.

 

[-Ran]

Does Diddy? Do most lighter characters in general? Diddy's a lot better than DK, but I worry a lot more about approaching/attacking DK than I do Diddy.

So you're telling me you don't fear a Diddy Kong with a banana in his hand? If he shields your attack, you'll instantly get hit by the banana, trip, and then get punished for easily 10-20% damage. At later percents, this can be used for a downsmash kill. DK has nothing like that, and that's just with a Diddy with one Banana. Whenever he has two Bananas out, I won't even venture to that side of the stage until one of them disappears.

 

[Vermanubis]

So you're telling me you don't fear a Diddy Kong with a banana in his hand? If he shields your attack, you'll instantly get hit by the banana, trip, and then get punished for easily 10-20% damage. At later percents, this can be used for a downsmash kill. DK has nothing like that, and that's just with a Diddy with one Banana. Whenever he has two Bananas out, I won't even venture to that side of the stage until one of them disappears.

I don't fear losing a stock. Obviously at later percents I do, but we're talking in general. The point is that worrying about approaching a character doesn't merit their game. I worry about Diddy a lot more than DK in general, but I don't worry about making mistakes as much, because I know I'll have to make successive ones against Diddy, whereas against DK, one wrong move and I could be done.

Same logic applies to Falcon and Ganon.

 

[Nic64]

Diddy can **** you up pretty hard over one mistake, and a "mistake" against Diddy can be a much more common action than what DK can punish. I think approaching DK is easy by comparison to Diddy.

 

[Vermanubis]

Diddy can **** you up pretty hard over one mistake, and a "mistake" against Diddy can be a much more common action than what DK can punish. I think approaching DK is easy by comparison to Diddy.

But he can rarely take a stock away. And yes, making a mistake against Diddy is far more common than one against DK. But that is precisely my point. It's easier to make a mistake against Falcon and get hit by him, but while Ganon can take a stock away if you're high enough in percentages, mistakes of such magnitude are rarely made. Same for DK.

ADHD vs. Ally. Ally made plenty of mistakes, but ADHD very rarely punished him on a level similar to if he had walked into a DK fsmash.

The ultimate point is that Ganon's strengths are incredibly circumstantial, whereas Falcon's are not. Falcon may lack some of Ganon strengths to their respective degrees, but makes up for it with far fewer flaws and a game that isn't entirely circumstantial.

Falcon is bad. If you don't know the match-up, he's okay. If you do, he's awful.

Ganon is really bad. If you don't know the match-up, he's pretty alright. If you do, the Ganon might as well give up.

 

[TheMike]

About ROB

His DownB gives him decent approaches

ROB doesn't really need to approach. But yeah.

his anti-approach options (ftilt, Fair, Pivot grab).

Pivot Grab isn't so good.

despite decent kill power, he lacks good kill set-ups.

Yeah. And when I have options to gimp, I do so. ROB's a gimp machine. lol

R.O.B. also has a difficult time dealing with certain strategies

That's VERY true. Our biggest problem is our size. And IMO that's why ROB sometimes suffers on some MUs, such as the MK one.



- We gimp. We camp. We have an excellent Glide Toss. We have Ftilt OoS. We have Spotdodge > Dsmash. But we don't have decent kill options(Bair is the best one among it, Nair, Fsmash and Usmash). We are tall. And we have an horrible Aerial Mobility.

I don't see reasons for ROB to rise. But I don't see reasons for him to fall, either. He'll live forever between the10-15 postions.

 

[PK-ow!]

Let's recapitulate on why Ganondorf is nonviable in any way, shape or form:
.

Don't forget about the 0-100 matchups.

A character that is beyond hard countered in the extremely unlikely event that you win game 1 - and not just "with a high level of play," but by a gimmick as simple as hitting side-B and waiting - can't possibly be anything other than garbage tier.


Is there even a term for it? Not hard counter; literally unwinnable? It is logically inconceivable that victory can be achieved? It's like choosing to forfeit on the stage select screen? Or answering your opponent's approach with an 'unplugging your controller and having a V8'?

 

[Clai]

As do I. As do several of the Ganon mains that have posted in this thread thus far enforcing his tier placement. But you certainly could've fooled me of your credentials by thinking Ganondorf's match-ups are misconstrued. I tend to find it difficult to believe that every character specific board's match-up chart here is plagued with mass delusion and bias over Ganondorf.

If you check out the match-up chart list thread in this forum, you find that most of the other characters' ratios against Ganondorf are quite fine. Some 60-40's, some 65-35's, some 70-30's, then the **** matchups where we get *****. I have no problem with every other boards' opinions. It's OUR board's opininos that get me angry, and I assume that people get their opinions of Ganondorf's matchups from our match-up chart since it's the most visible way to see where we stand. If our matchup thread was more like what most people say about Ganondorf, then I really doubt that there'd even be a "G for Ganon tier" discussion.

And in case you didn't read most of the conversations thus far, Ganondorf has been used in high levels of play and cannot, statistically, compete even in low-tier tournaments without a lot of trouble and tribulation. Also yes, I'm very aware that Fox and Wolf get tilt-locked, but not nearly as badly. Ganon gets ftilt locked by Sheik up to 100% regardless of DI. As a Fox secondary/third/fourth/whatever, I know for a fact that Fox can escape much, much earlier.

There's a very big difference between "hard to succeed without loads of effort and tribulation" and "completely hopeless." Most people say it's the latter, while I say it's the former.

Let's recapitulate on why Ganondorf is nonviable in any way, shape or form:

Mobility:

People grossly underestimate the damage this does to him. He can't surprise people, he can't retreat, he has a tough time getting back up from ledges, he can't land safely, he has a below average spot-dodge and has no hope of approaching with said speed. Consider the massive boon speed like Falcon's truly is. Ganondorf gets juggled, locked, CGed and gimped easier than almost any character in the game. Ganondorf needs to be able to defend his personal space to stand a chance and against characters like Snake and most of the cast, he can't. Not to mention characters with projectiles. Falcon can at least get to them quickly so they can't spam you to death. If Ganon tries to jump, he'll just get punished. So his option 99.8% of the time is a powershield approach.

You say Ganondorf can't defend his personal space, but I think differently. Approaching is a pain for sure, but keeping others away isn't too difficult. It's a matter of not being predictable and using the move most appropiate for the situation. Difficult? Yes, but not impossible.

Moveset:

Ganondorf is a behemoth. We all know this. But what good are these moves if your opponent has to approach you directly for them to work? If you try to run at someone doing anything as Ganondorf, they won't fall for it 9 times out of 10. But with Ganon's power comes massive ending lag. He has no way to attack directly in front of him without being heavily punished (fair) and no way to attack behind him against smaller characters (bair won't autocancel). Due to him only have a select few viable moves in real battle, most of his moves stale extremely quickly. Keeping dair, uair and ftilt fresh is not easy, as they comprise most of your options. He has not grab game whatsoever unless you're within *****es touching range. Below average range and mediocre priority. And lastly, no OoS game. Thanks to Ganon's slow roll and movement/jumping lag, if an opponent gets too close, you're **** out of luck and have to let yourself be hit, pretty much.

Ganondorf has many, many more viable moves than just d-air, u-air and f-tilt. Even the moves that don't appear viable at first (side-B, f-air) have plenty of use, it's just a matter of knowing when you have the opportunity and when you don't.

As a Ganondorf mainer you should know that the only thing Ganondorf has at all is power. He got the short end of the stick on everything else. Falcon, on the other hand, has decent power, but almost zero of the same problems Ganondorf has to the same degree. The world does not suffer from mass delusion regarding Ganondorf's match-ups, nor tier placement.

Not to the same degree, but Falcon certainly has almost all of the same reasons why he's completely unusable in tournaments:

-He is easily juggle-able due to his fall speed.
-He can't do anything against an opponent who's playing defensively outside his jab range.
-Falcon's grab range sucks, so you'll be able to see a grab attempt a mile away and punish accordingly.
-His recovery is easily gimpable

Now if all of these options were massively improved, instead of just slight-moderate improvements, that's one thing, but in my opinion, it's not worth the loss of amazing damage potential and killing ability Ganondorf has.

I love Ganondorf. And I do not believe he is totally hopeless by any means. But I do believe he belongs right where he is right now.

If you haven't heard the arguments recently, people are arguing that Ganondorf should be LOWER than where he is right now, not just the worst character in the game, but an ENTIRE TIER below everyone else. I will not complain one bit if he stays the worst character in the game, as long as someone else is occupying the same tier as he is.

Dammit Clai! Stop being Clai! We know you're right, but let the boys have their fun! G is for Ganondorf!

For every person who argues that for fun, there's someone else who thinks that Ganondorf is the worst fighting game character in history. I have to take everything seriously, because I have manhood to preserve.

 

[Shaya]

Tier Lists are about viability in the metagame.

If you take Ike, who does well in low tier tournaments because he has positive match ups with most of low tier because hes a swordsman, and swordsman win, well, that shouldn't matter.
Ike's ability to compete in the metagame is based on the characters he'll most likely face.

If there was an MK banned 'metagame', Marths would have a high chance of consistantly placing/winning, so does that mean he should be above all those 'S tiers' he can go even with/beat?
Because remember, the only [current] S tiers he doesn't go even with/beat is MK and imo Dedede.

Ike doing well in low tier tournaments is a testament of his ability as a character most likely being above those in low tier. Because unless there is some weird bull crap (like lets say a Dedede with nothing but his shield grab, dthrow, bthrow and some kill move) destroying low tiers with formalities that doens't work on higher tiers for some odd reason, that character is most likely a... better character in the metagame.
Unfortunately for poor Ike, his range and speed on his jab is arguably a formality in the low tiers. Natural advantages (as in, Sakurai designed character to have weakness to a certain trait of a character; these natural advantages occur throughout the game, even if the real high level match up ratios are close to even) is overextended by the fact those characters do not have the abilities to over come them, it's not merely "its an uphill battle because the option isn't optimal", its "I have NO ANSWER to this situation".

Anyway pretty much rambling here.. ;\

 

[Kitamerby]

For every person who argues that for fun, there's someone else who thinks that Ganondorf is the worst fighting game character in history. I have to take everything seriously, because I have manhood to preserve.

Someone hasn't used Roll in MvC2. D:

Not like it matters. Since if we're comparing different characters from video games, we're all going to be stomped by this guy anyways.

 

[Vermanubis]

If you check out the match-up chart list thread in this forum, you find that most of the other characters' ratios against Ganondorf are quite fine. Some 60-40's, some 65-35's, some 70-30's, then the **** matchups where we get *****. I have no problem with every other boards' opinions. It's OUR board's opininos that get me angry, and I assume that people get their opinions of Ganondorf's matchups from our match-up chart since it's the most visible way to see where we stand. If our matchup thread was more like what most people say about Ganondorf, then I really doubt that there'd even be a "G for Ganon tier" discussion.

I didn't say he necessarily belonged in his own tier. But, it's fine if you don't agree with the Ganon board's assessments, but the top Ganons go there in mass congregation and I doubt they're just talking out of their *****.

There's a very big difference between "hard to succeed without loads of effort and tribulation" and "completely hopeless." Most people say it's the latter, while I say it's the former.

Ganondorf is hopeless in some cases. As it stands in general, he is not absolutely hopeless, but as we were discussing earlier, his flaws floor him so hard that the threshold of futility has been breached long before impossibility. As exemplified by Ally vs. M2K, Captain Falcon can stand a chance against MK. Ganon cannot for obvious reasons. Ganon is not fast enough in any way, shape or form to contend with faster characters. When I said he has to defend his personal space, I meant that he needs time to execute his moves. Meta Knight, Sheik, etc. will completely disallow this.

That's a prime example of what I mean when I say his speed hurts him more than any other character.

You say Ganondorf can't defend his personal space, but I think differently. Approaching is a pain for sure, but keeping others away isn't too difficult. It's a matter of not being predictable and using the move most appropiate for the situation. Difficult? Yes, but not impossible.

How? He has no OoS options. So how does he deter opponents? Ftilt? I suggest playing a really talented... anyone. Fair doesn't constitute a deterrent; it's too circumstantial. The only thing I can think of that'd even mildly repel an opponent is a tippered uair. But my point is just that Ganon needs an adequate deterrent to give him breathing space. A lot of characters won't give him breathing space.

Ganondorf has many, many more viable moves than just d-air, u-air and f-tilt. Even the moves that don't appear viable at first (side-B, f-air) have plenty of use, it's just a matter of knowing when you have the opportunity and when you don't.

Viable in direct combat. Fair, if it fails, gets punished hard. Dtilt is circumstantial, as you won't be using it to approach. Bair isn't very good unless it can be auto-canceled, which it can't be against half of the cast. Jab is... eh. As for warlock choke, it's a terrific move, but you won't be using it unless ideal circumstances present themselves, i.e. punishing a landing, roll or otherwise.

Not to the same degree, but Falcon certainly has almost all of the same reasons why he's completely unusable in tournaments:

Almost. Key word being almost.

-He is easily juggle-able due to his fall speed.
-He can't do anything against an opponent who's playing defensively outside his jab range.
-Falcon's grab range sucks, so you'll be able to see a grab attempt a mile away and punish accordingly.
-His recovery is easily gimpable

1. He has a fast nair/uair to break combos.
2. He can at least fake his opponents out and get near them. He can punish much more easily than Ganondorf, etc. Ganon is the only one who is completely helpless against a defensive player.
3. A decent Falcon will never grab unless to punish or out of a jab.
4. His recovery is gimpable, but not as much and if it isn't gimped, he can get back on stage much, much easier than Ganon.

Now if all of these options were massively improved, instead of just slight-moderate improvements, that's one thing, but in my opinion, it's not worth the loss of amazing damage potential and killing ability Ganondorf has.

Falcon can make mistakes. Falcon can kill decently. Falcon can grab and he is very, very fast. Ganon cannot make mistakes. He can kill extremely well. He can't grab and he is the slowest character in the game.

Ganon is a high risk/reward character, but the risk involved entails a lack of pragmatics in implementation. Falcon can survive, fight back and work the stage. Ganondorf has is own little bubble to fight in and if you step an inch in or out of that bubble, you're dead.

Inverse to your point, Ganon's killing potential is highly, highly circumstantial, whereas Falcon's isn't. Falcon is a solid character with absolute strengths. Ganon is not a solid character, whose strengths are not absolute.

If you haven't heard the arguments recently, people are arguing that Ganondorf should be LOWER than where he is right now, not just the worst character in the game, but an ENTIRE TIER below everyone else. I will not complain one bit if he stays the worst character in the game, as long as someone else is occupying the same tier as he is.

Being the worst and being a tier lower than he is now are one in the same in regards to the point I'm making. That point is that Ganondorf can't hold a candle to Falcon.

For every person who argues that for fun, there's someone else who thinks that Ganondorf is the worst fighting game character in history. I have to take everything seriously, because I have manhood to preserve.

?

 

[BSP]

I think the reasoning for sonic being in D is only somewhat right. It is true that he has trouble killing, but he can still get his kills. The don't dodge and he can't kill really doesn't apply in the air, because if you don't dodge, sonic could just attack normally and hit you. And what about mistakes? Perfect play is impossible, so your opponent will make mistakes, be it spacing, recovering, etc. Sonic can hit spacing mistakes with fsmash, or he can gimp recovery mistakes. That summary fails to mention sonic's gimping abilities as well. I think he should be with the C tier characters.

I forgot something. What do Mario (really), Luigi and Zelda/Sheik have that Sonic doesn't? (besides more ko power obviously, and maybe no for mario and sheik)

 

[Kinzer]

I think the reasoning for sonic being in D is only somewhat right. It is true that he has trouble killing, but he can still get his kills. The don't dodge and he can't kill really doesn't apply in the air, because if you don't dodge, sonic could just attack normally and hit you. And what about mistakes? Perfect play is impossible, so your opponent will make mistakes, be it spacing, recovering, etc. Sonic can hit spacing mistakes with fsmash, or he can gimp recovery mistakes. That summary fails to mention sonic's gimping abilities as well. I think he should be with the C tier characters.

Son, this is Super Theorycraft Bros. Brawl. A game where you exaggerate weaknesses, fail to mention strengths, and ignore the surrounding characters' traits that determine whether or not they should be higher.

Step up yo gaaaaame~!

Spoiler

Nah actually, it doesn't help that Sonic's strengths include his vast array of semi-average options. I can understand how people don't want to factor variables, and since Sonic's all about that... well... :/

I just, wonder if a couple of guys know where to draw the line between "these variables are good enough for him to get around" and "these absolute options suck so bad, this character shouldn't even be here!"

 

[smashkng]

Falcon's grab range sucks, if his standing grab is better than Ganon's then just barely better. His dash grab range isn't too bad, but it is still unsafe on miss.

I don't think we need to care too much about low tiers, as all those gets ***** by at least one top tier character (but usually most or all) and it is extremely likely to have to fight a matchup which is way too hard to handle. That's why I believe Ganon isn't neccessarily last and Falcon neccessarily second to last.

 

[MarKO X]

Discussing whether Ganon or Falcon is the worst is as pointless as debating whether Sonic Next Gen or Sonic Unleashed was worse because they both suck.

For the record, I prefer Ganon. He punishes way harder imo.

 

[Clai]

I didn't say he necessarily belonged in his own tier. But, it's fine if you don't agree with the Ganon board's assessments, but the top Ganons go there in mass congregation and I doubt they're just talking out of their *****.

I'm not going to speak for what the top Ganons have to say about this matter, all I'm going to say is that the Ganon boards don't argue much because we'd all rather talk about how awesome Ganondorf is in every way except in competitive Brawl.

Ganondorf is hopeless in some cases. As it stands in general, he is not absolutely hopeless, but as we were discussing earlier, his flaws floor him so hard that the threshold of futility has been breached long before impossibility. As exemplified by Ally vs. M2K, Captain Falcon can stand a chance against MK. Ganon cannot for obvious reasons. Ganon is not fast enough in any way, shape or form to contend with faster characters. When I said he has to defend his personal space, I meant that he needs time to execute his moves. Meta Knight, Sheik, etc. will completely disallow this.

That's a prime example of what I mean when I say his speed hurts him more than any other character.

For all you and I know, M2K could have been sandbagging his butt off in a friendly when this happened, and I'm inclined to accept that as truth. I mean honestly, do you really think that Ally would risk losing tournament money by going Falcon against M2K in an actual competitive setting? As long as the MK player plays the match-up properly, Falcon has an even less chance of winning than Ganondorf does.

As for defending personal space, it's completely up to the player to be able to handle an MK or Sheik rushing at him. It's the player's job to keep his space and prevent the other player from totally ruining his options.

How? He has no OoS options. So how does he deter opponents? Ftilt? I suggest playing a really talented... anyone. Fair doesn't constitute a deterrent; it's too circumstantial. The only thing I can think of that'd even mildly repel an opponent is a tippered uair. But my point is just that Ganon needs an adequate deterrent to give him breathing space. A lot of characters won't give him breathing space.

Firstly, the fact that you think I haven't played talented people, even after telling you that I play Ganondorf at high levels of play, is laughable. Secondly, you would think by now that having no OOS options would make us... stop using our shields as a defense? We outrange most of the cast by a pretty good amount, and we have a pretty good aerial game to prevent opponents from threatening us. It's a matter of being able to use our good traits to the fullest and prevent the other guys from exploiting our weaknesses.

Viable in direct combat. Fair, if it fails, gets punished hard. Dtilt is circumstantial, as you won't be using it to approach. Bair isn't very good unless it can be auto-canceled, which it can't be against half of the cast. Jab is... eh. As for warlock choke, it's a terrific move, but you won't be using it unless ideal circumstances present themselves, i.e. punishing a landing, roll or otherwise.

You can't just say 'direct combat' without explaining the situation where this combat happens. What stages are we talking about? What position is Ganondorf and the opponent in? How can Ganondorf and/or the opponent make use of the stage from where they are? There's a load of variables that have to considered in all of this and simply saying a certain move is unviable is way too simplistic.

Most moves are circumstantial, yes, but it's the player's duty to make all of that happen, and it comes to landing a kill move, he has a plethora of options that he can bide his time until he makes the opportunity to land it.

Almost. Key word being almost.

I had to say almost, as Falcon doesn't have a mobility problem. As I've stated, though, mobility is worthless if you don't have the moveset to complement this.

1. He has a fast nair/uair to break combos.

What do you know? So does Ganon, and his nair/uair have more range than Falcon's.

2. He can at least fake his opponents out and get near them. He can punish much more easily than Ganondorf, etc. Ganon is the only one who is completely helpless against a defensive player.

Fake out with what? After all, we're assuming that the other player knows the matchup well, and smoke and mirrors aren't going to work if the other player knows that Falcon can do nothing as long as he remains consistent and defensive.

3. A decent Falcon will never grab unless to punish or out of a jab.

Which essentially admits that Falcon has no worthwhile grab game, as anyone fighting Falcon is going to be wary of his jab, which essentially throws his only set-up out the window.

4. His recovery is gimpable, but not as much and if it isn't gimped, he can get back on stage much, much easier than Ganon.

Last time I checked, Ganon has all of the same options when returning from the ledge to the stage as Falcon does, not to mention that Ganondorf is a far, far better ledge planker than Falcon is.

Falcon can make mistakes. Falcon can kill decently. Falcon can grab and he is very, very fast.

Compared to the other characters....... no.

Ganon cannot make mistakes. He can kill extremely well. He can't grab and he is the slowest character in the game.

Ganon's grab is small, but it is still faster than reaction. It's not that Ganon can't grab, you're just not trying to incorporate a grab game.

Falcon can survive, fight back and work the stage.

Again, compared to everyone else on the cast.... no.

Ganondorf has is own little bubble to fight in and if you step an inch in or out of that bubble, you're dead.

If you die from stepping an inch out of your bubble, I'd label that as a player weakness, not a character weakness. The player has to be able to fight out of dangerous circumstances if he wants to succeed.

Inverse to your point, Ganon's killing potential is highly, highly circumstantial, whereas Falcon's isn't. Falcon is a solid character with absolute strengths. Ganon is not a solid character, whose strengths are not absolute.

You're trying to write Falcon off as high-tier or something, especially with that bolded part. Falcon's the second worst character in the game for a reason, and that his moveset is pathetic in every way possible, and only his speed is preventing him from being worse than Ganon, if that conclusion is even reached.

Being the worst and being a tier lower than he is now are one in the same in regards to the point I'm making. That point is that Ganondorf can't hold a candle to Falcon.

The current tier list has Ganondorf as the worst character already, so keeping the status quo compared to thinking that he's so bad that they need to actively place him lower where he already is are two completely different things. The fact is that Falcon can't hold a candle to anyone else in the cast that doesn't have a virtually identical moveset to him, and he's nowhere near good enough to have any separation from Ganon.

?

???

 

[ShadowLink84]

Marko, your argument is invalid because you played unleashed for the wii. The 360 version ROCKS AWESOMESAUCE!


Edit: Oh god everyone is bringing up when Ally used Falcon on m2k? Is it not obvious that M2K sandbagged the hell out of that!? LOL@verm using the example.

 

[MarKO X]

Marko, your argument is invalid because you played unleashed for the wii. The 360 version ROCKS AWESOMESAUCE!

I played it on PS3 as well, same as 360, no?
In any event, werehog limits Sonic's approach, and gets combo'd easily.

And if Falcon has a chance against MK, then ICs have a 100:0 matchup against MK. (anyone remember that jv 4 stock?)

 

[Turbo Ether]

This discussion reminds me of the time Orion beat M2K's DDD in a money match with Captain Falcon last year. Lol.

 

[orange/xd]

^LOL

Ganondorf<CF IMO.

 

[Vermanubis]

I'm not going to speak for what the top Ganons have to say about this matter, all I'm going to say is that the Ganon boards don't argue much because we'd all rather talk about how awesome Ganondorf is in every way except in competitive Brawl.

That may be true for some other areas, but the match-up discussion for the Ganon boards are solid. As they are for the other boards.

For all you and I know, M2K could have been sandbagging his butt off in a friendly when this happened, and I'm inclined to accept that as truth. I mean honestly, do you really think that Ally would risk losing tournament money by going Falcon against M2K in an actual competitive setting? As long as the MK player plays the match-up properly, Falcon has an even less chance of winning than Ganondorf does.

No. Even if a Captain Falcon can contend with a sandbagging world-renowned MK, that means something. Ganondorf does not have more of a chance of winning by any means. MK can gimp Ganondorf at 0% much, much easier than he can Falcon. Falcon can at least outrun MK and punish what little windows he was. Again, Ganondorf being completely unable to deal with being overwhelmed by his speed makes it so he can't even use a single move in edgewise.

The fact that you even think that leads me to believe you've never played a good MK.

As for defending personal space, it's completely up to the player to be able to handle an MK or Sheik rushing at him. It's the player's job to keep his space and prevent the other player from totally ruining his options.

Again, no. No matter how good the Ganondorf is, he cannot exceed his own limitations. MK and Sheik rushing at him requires him to be offensive as a defense. Now, tell me: how is Ganondorf, as slow as he is, going to repeatedly deter characters like that? Not only is he not fleet enough of foot, but his attacks aren't fast enough either. There's a reason those match-ups are 90:10 and 100:0. 90% of what those two characters alone do eliminate almost all of Ganon's options.

Being incredibly good doesn't make you faster than you are. If you can find me a Ganondorf who can fend off pro Sheiks and MKs, I'll listen. Until then, I'm far from convinced.

Firstly, the fact that you think I haven't played talented people, even after telling you that I play Ganondorf at high levels of play, is laughable. Secondly, you would think by now that having no OOS options would make us... stop using our shields as a defense? We outrange most of the cast by a pretty good amount, and we have a pretty good aerial game to prevent opponents from threatening us. It's a matter of being able to use our good traits to the fullest and prevent the other guys from exploiting our weaknesses.

I may be the only one, but someone's word that they use Ganondorf at high levels of play is out-prioritized by a demonstration of knowledge that suggests otherwise. Ganondorf's shield is his best friend. What other options does he have? Am I supposed to believe Ganondorf is capable of warding off wave after wave of attack with slightly above average range and decent priority? As for his aerial game, it has almost no horizontal range. If it did, we'd actually have an approach. Take on a good Jigglypuff even and see how magnificent our aerial game is at deterring aerial opponents.

Ganondorf has good traits, but sometimes those good traits cannot be fully implemented. Your argument thus far would only hold water in a perfect-case scenario in which the Ganondorf predicted every move perfectly and executed every action perfectly. Saying "it's up to the player not to let these things happen" isn't a good enough defense. That same axiom could be applied to every character. It's up to the player to not get chaingrabbed by ICs, yet we're still 100:0 with them.

You can't just say 'direct combat' without explaining the situation where this combat happens. What stages are we talking about? What position is Ganondorf and the opponent in? How can Ganondorf and/or the opponent make use of the stage from where they are? There's a load of variables that have to considered in all of this and simply saying a certain move is unviable is way too simplistic.

Circumstantial refers to a move that is only effective under certain conditions and would otherwise result in catastrophe. Fair, dtilt and jab all meet one or both of these criteria. It could also be defined as a move that could be substituted by another move with far less risk. Fair can usually be substituted with uair with far less risk.

Most moves are circumstantial, yes, but it's the player's duty to make all of that happen, and it comes to landing a kill move, he has a plethora of options that he can bide his time until he makes the opportunity to land it.

Like I said above "it's up to the player" isn't a valid defense. And read above. Not all of Ganon's moves are circumstantial. A handful of them are fairly handy. If we're to assume the Ganondorf is performing their duty of "making it happen by skill", we can also assume in a realistic setting that the opponent will do the same to cancel yours out. We're considering character's inherent traits; not rare implementations executed under miraculous circumstances due to quasi-God players being at the helm

In a match of equal skill, Ganondorf as almost nothing as a character to beat out his opponent. To win as Ganondorf, you simply have to be better than your opponent and by a good deal.

I had to say almost, as Falcon doesn't have a mobility problem. As I've stated, though, mobility is worthless if you don't have the moveset to complement this.

Falcon's moveset is bad, but it's not pathetic.

What do you know? So does Ganon, and his nair/uair have more range than Falcon's.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but range doesn't make your moves faster. Ganon's nair and uair require quite a few more frames to execute than Falcon's. This means combo breakers.

Fake out with what? After all, we're assuming that the other player knows the matchup well, and smoke and mirrors aren't going to work if the other player knows that Falcon can do nothing as long as he remains consistent and defensive.

Aren't you the one arguing that Ganon's weaknesses can be overcome by outwitting your opponent? That aside, while what you say is true, Falcon's mobility gives him a much better chance at mindgaming and using said "smoke and mirrors" than Ganondorf.

Which essentially admits that Falcon has no worthwhile grab game, as anyone fighting Falcon is going to be wary of his jab, which essentially throws his only set-up out the window.

His grabs make for excellent set-ups and no good Falcon will ever grab except out of jab. So, moot point.

Last time I checked, Ganon has all of the same options when returning from the ledge to the stage as Falcon does, not to mention that Ganondorf is a far, far better ledge planker than Falcon is.

Falcon's mobility means he can get back up unscathed. Ganon's size and speed make it so he has to attack to defend. In a defensive game like Brawl, attacking to defend is a horrible, horrible situation. As for ledge planking, good luck using it in competitive play. Ganondorf's ledge planking is about as useful as a turd. It's there, but it doesn't do much and while I'm not aware of any circumstances in which turds **** you over, Ganon trying to plank can **** him over.

Compared to the other characters....... no.

We're not comparing him to other characters. We're comparing him to Ganondorf.

Ganon's grab is small, but it is still faster than reaction. It's not that Ganon can't grab, you're just not trying to incorporate a grab game.

Why in God's name would you choose to grab somebody instead of something else as Ganondorf? He can't grab spacers. It's stupid to grab as a punishment in 99% of the cases the opportunity presents itself. And trying to grab them out of their shield is like the sun hoping we won't notice it about to supernova.

Again, compared to everyone else on the cast.... no.

Again, we're not comparing him to the rest of the cast. We're comparing him to Ganondorf. May I ascertain which planet you're residing on?

If you die from stepping an inch out of your bubble, I'd label that as a player weakness, not a character weakness. The player has to be able to fight out of dangerous circumstances if he wants to succeed.

Ganon can't deal with dangerous circumstances. You have to understand sooner or later that Ganondorf doesn't just have a tough time dealing with most situations. He simply can't deal with most situations. No matter how much you train your legs, are you going to be able to jump 200 feet? Not likely. This same logic applies to Ganondorf (limitations), in that which his options are often so limited, especially when being pressured, that he has one small inch of space to call his safe zone and that's because Ganon cannot engage directly in combat; he can only punish.

The current tier list has Ganondorf as the worst character already, so keeping the status quo compared to thinking that he's so bad that they need to actively place him lower where he already is are two completely different things. The fact is that Falcon can't hold a candle to anyone else in the cast that doesn't have a virtually identical moveset to him, and he's nowhere near good enough to have any separation from Ganon.

Where did you get the idea I was a proponent for this idea?

 

[CRASHiC]

CO18 Beat Ally.
DDD still a snake counter.

 

[-Ran]

DDD just asks a Snake player to approach the game completely contradictory to every reaction and notion they have built upon.

 

[Clai]

That may be true for some other areas, but the match-up discussion for the Ganon boards are solid. As they are for the other boards.

Have you even looked at the match-up discussion for the Ganon boards? Outside of our current discussion, our match-up talk is completely one-sided and everything but solid.

No. Even if a Captain Falcon can contend with a sandbagging world-renowned MK, that means something.

M2k was sandbagging. Ally vs. M2K is worthless for actual discussion and always will be. Accept it.

Ganondorf does not have more of a chance of winning by any means. MK can gimp Ganondorf at 0% much, much easier than he can Falcon. Falcon can at least outrun MK and punish what little windows he was.

Because the MK player is just going to give Falcon openings to punish as some sort of sympathy, right? Falcon is just as helpless against MK's defensive game as Ganondorf is because guess what? Falcon has almost the exact same moveset, with even less priority (Jab has no range to help him, U-tilt is too slow, and if you start suggesting that Falcon's going to land knees on an MK outside of punishment, I'm going to laugh).

Again, Ganondorf being completely unable to deal with being overwhelmed by his speed makes it so he can't even use a single move in edgewise.

Being overwhelmed by speed is not a character flaw, it's a player's flaw. The player has to adapt to pressure and respond.

The fact that you even think that leads me to believe you've never played a good MK.

I've only recently started to trust my Ganon in fighting MK's, so I haven't had the chance to play any renowned MK's. However, I have played a few decent Metaknight's and I fare quite well in all of them. It's certainly not a hopeless matchup.

Again, no. No matter how good the Ganondorf is, he cannot exceed his own limitations. MK and Sheik rushing at him requires him to be offensive as a defense. Now, tell me: how is Ganondorf, as slow as he is, going to repeatedly deter characters like that? Not only is he not fleet enough of foot, but his attacks aren't fast enough either. There's a reason those match-ups are 90:10 and 100:0. 90% of what those two characters alone do eliminate almost all of Ganon's options.

MK:Ganon is 80:20 because of MK's overwhelming defensive options, not offensive (Basically F-tilt>Ganondorf's approaches). Sheik is 100:0 because Ganondorf literally has no answer to chain camping. Basically, while the matchups aren't wrong, your logic is.

I may be the only one, but someone's word that they use Ganondorf at high levels of play is out-prioritized by a demonstration of knowledge that suggests otherwise.

I'm not going to be an idiot and start name-dropping, but I have played people who compete at high levels of play with their respective characters, and they have given me nothing but upmost respect from our matches.

Ganondorf's shield is his best friend.

With no out of shield options that doesn't leave him in danger of heavy punishment? Yeah okay.

What other options does he have? Am I supposed to believe Ganondorf is capable of warding off wave after wave of attack with slightly above average range and decent priority?

When a good number of the cast has either no range or little priority in the air, I'll take Ganondorf's aerial game any day.

As for his aerial game, it has almost no horizontal range. If it did, we'd actually have an approach.

It's not his lack of horizontal range that deters him (because he has fine range), it's his height and the fact that his aerials go over standing people that affect him. Of course, in aerial vs. aerial combat, that's not a problem.

Ganondorf has good traits, but sometimes those good traits cannot be fully implemented. Your argument thus far would only hold water in a perfect-case scenario in which the Ganondorf predicted every move perfectly and executed every action perfectly. Saying "it's up to the player not to let these things happen" isn't a good enough defense. That same axiom could be applied to every character. It's up to the player to not get chaingrabbed by ICs, yet we're still 100:0 with them.

I'm not talking about perfect-case scenarios, I'm talking about neutral scenarios. Not once do I say anything about the Ganondorf player having to predict anything, so don't shove words into my mouth. As for execting actions perfectly, well that's a requirement of high level play, now isn't it? In fact, most of your arguments have led me to believe that you don't reallly know what high levels of play require.

Also, the IC:Ganon discussion is extreme because Blizzard shuts down our aerial game and almost all of our ground moves gets shieldgrabbed. The axiom "don't get grabbed" can't apply to Ganondorf, but a good number of statements that apply to other characters applies to Ganon as well.

Circumstantial refers to a move that is only effective under certain conditions and would otherwise result in catastrophe. Fair, dtilt and jab all meet one or both of these criteria. It could also be defined as a move that could be substituted by another move with far less risk. Fair can usually be substituted with uair with far less risk.

Ganondorf has more than enough moves that he can use in neutral situations until the player can find the opportunity to use some of the more dangerous moves. Uair, Nair, Dair (when used smartly), Bair (same situation), Usmash can all be used with relative ease. That still leaves open Aerial Wizkick/Ftilt/Dash Attack/Fair as kill moves, and the opportunities to use those will come up regularly.

Like I said above "it's up to the player" isn't a valid defense. And read above. Not all of Ganon's moves are circumstantial. A handful of them are fairly handy. If we're to assume the Ganondorf is performing their duty of "making it happen by skill", we can also assume in a realistic setting that the opponent will do the same to cancel yours out. We're considering character's inherent traits; not rare implementations executed under miraculous circumstances due to quasi-God players being at the helm

Please stop exaggerating my claims. I'm talking about the traits that people need to succeed in high levels of play, not about superhumans. Yes, throughout a battle, there's going to be cases where one player is naturally at an advantageous situation due to proper stage control and such, and it's up to the player to make the most of that advantage while the other player has to get away and try to reach a neutral position again.

In a match of equal skill, Ganondorf as almost nothing as a character to beat out his opponent. To win as Ganondorf, you simply have to be better than your opponent and by a good deal.

Ganondorf has enough as a character for people to win against people with equal skill level. It's an uphill climb, but real men have what it takes to climb that mountain.

Falcon's moveset is bad, but it's not pathetic.

It's almost the exact same moveset as Ganondorf's. It's patheric.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but range doesn't make your moves faster. Ganon's nair and uair require quite a few more frames to execute than Falcon's. This means combo breakers.

Falcon boards are slow and don't have frame data for Falcon's aerials. Unless if I'm mistaken, don't Ganon's and Falcon's uair and nair come out in the exact same frame?

Aren't you the one arguing that Ganon's weaknesses can be overcome by outwitting your opponent? That aside, while what you say is true, Falcon's mobility gives him a much better chance at mindgaming and using said "smoke and mirrors" than Ganondorf.

Having a faster running speed does not make a character's moves better, no matter how extreme the difference is. The same moveset problems Ganondorf has applies to Falcon as well.

His grabs make for excellent set-ups and no good Falcon will ever grab except out of jab. So, moot point.

Too bad his jab range is so bad, and I don't know what set-ups you're talking about, after Falcon gets an aerial from his grab set-up, what can he do after that? With DI and low hit-stun, people are usually going to get away after the second hit and go right back to the neutral position. So much for excellent set-ups...

Falcon's mobility means he can get back up unscathed. Ganon's size and speed make it so he has to attack to defend. In a defensive game like Brawl, attacking to defend is a horrible, horrible situation. As for ledge planking, good luck using it in competitive play. Ganondorf's ledge planking is about as useful as a turd. It's there, but it doesn't do much and while I'm not aware of any circumstances in which turds **** you over, Ganon trying to plank can **** him over.

Being on the ledge means that you have little room to maneuver in, so mobility isn't going to make a big difference. Also, you know absoultely nothing about Ganonplanking.

We're not comparing him to other characters. We're comparing him to Ganondorf.

Again, we're not comparing him to the rest of the cast. We're comparing him to Ganondorf. May I ascertain which planet you're residing on?

If we're trying to put Falcon in a different tier than Ganondorf, then we have to prove that Falcon has the same viability as the other characters in the last tier before Ganon. If Falcon is closer to Ganon in viability than Link/Samus/Jigglypuff, then Falcon's going in Ganon tier, which he should undeniably reside in.

Why in God's name would you choose to grab somebody instead of something else as Ganondorf? He can't grab spacers. It's stupid to grab as a punishment in 99% of the cases the opportunity presents itself. And trying to grab them out of their shield is like the sun hoping we won't notice it about to supernova.

It's Ganondorf's fastest option against characters who are trying to get in Ganondorf's face, especially since running up close to Ganon and shielding beats most of Ganondorf's ground game.

Ganon can't deal with dangerous circumstances. You have to understand sooner or later that Ganondorf doesn't just have a tough time dealing with most situations. He simply can't deal with most situations.

This is a player issue, not a character issue.

Where did you get the idea I was a proponent for this idea?

Considering how great you're trying to make Falcon out to be some type of great character can only leave me to believe you're trying to single out Ganondorf in his own tier. Otherwise, I would have never had any reason to compare the two in the first place.

 

[Laem]

japan has MK - ganon as 6-4 AISEGYFTWPEIFYGEWCOWHEPFWGHEFWGFY ganon is too good

 

[smashkng]

I'm not sure if chain camping with Sheik on Ganon is actually possible, but even if it's impossible to do I think it's still 80/20 Sheik.