Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[ShadowLink84]

Sorry to disappoint you and Sonic.

Although if it helps you sleep better Sonic is the one character I have the least amount of experience with/against, so he could (probably) only move up for me.

Umm its not just Sonic, and you should be using more information than your experience. -_-
Ice climber's should be in 8th place.
Diddy could be around 4th or 5th
Marth should be above DDD IMO.
Pokemon trainer is far too low.
Ness should be above Lucas IMO,
Peach should be above Toon Link at least.
A few other things but you get my point.

 

[Jupz]

Pikachu's chaingrab only works at very precise percents. You can just camp a platform during the small window he has to grab you if you can't avoid it/take damage from other attacks normally. <.<

It's not that it *doesn't work* after those percentages, its just that you can't regrab the opponent to the optimal percentage due to the fact that the throw will not be stale enough. If you manage to grab someone 10% after the optimal window, you can still chaingrab them to a relatively high percentage, just not the max one.

 

[Hoser]

Ice climber's should be in 8th place.
Diddy could be around 4th or 5th
Marth should be above DDD IMO.
Pokemon trainer is far too low.
Ness should be above Lucas IMO,
Peach should be above Toon Link at least.

LOL.
I mean...that list is fine

 

[etecoon]

Ice climber's should be in 8th place.
Diddy could be around 4th or 5th
Marth should be above DDD IMO.
Pokemon trainer is far too low.
Ness should be above Lucas IMO,
Peach should be above Toon Link at least.
A few other things but you get my point.

LOL.
I mean...that list is fine

 

[ShadowLink84]

LOL.
I mean...that list is fine

LOL.
I mean...that list is fine

 

[arcane9211]

Umm its not just Sonic, and you should be using more information than your experience. -_-
Ice climber's should be in 8th place.
Diddy could be around 4th or 5th
Marth should be above DDD IMO.
Pokemon trainer is far too low.
Ness should be above Lucas IMO,
Peach should be above Toon Link at least.
A few other things but you get my point.

1) By experience I meant that I don't know much about Sonic, his priority, range, etc. Sonic and Pokemon Trainer were probably 2 of the hardest for me to place. You're probably right about these two, though.

2) I disagree about Icies for the moment.

3) Tier placement (such as A, B, etc.) is more important than order. Wario and Diddy are pretty close imo (and I'm guessing even you would only have them 1-2 spots apart), so nitpicking is dumb.

4) See #3

5) See #1

6) Eh, they're pretty even imo. I'm not really concerned if they're reversed but still right next to each other. If you really want, I'll tell you you're right.

7) That tier (that I placed TL and Peach in) could really go in a bunch of ways. I feel TL is slightly better (he was higher on both tier list 3.0 and japan's tier list as well), but honestly, they're both pretty close. Again, tier placement is more important than order.


If your biggest criticisms were Sonic, Pokemon Trainer, Peach not being 3 spots higher, and a few other 1 spot changes, I feel it was a decent list.

I also find it hilarious the number of people that respond with "lol" to people's lists and then often post one with Diddy at #15 and Yoshi in high -_- (exaggeration for god's sake)

 

[ShadowLink84]

1) By experience I meant that I don't know much about Sonic, his priority, range, etc. Sonic and Pokemon Trainer were probably 2 of the hardest for me to place. You're probably right about these two, though.

Which is why we do not judge based on OUR experience.
Anecdotal evidence is a poor use.

2) I disagree about Icies for the moment.

Why?

3) Tier placement (such as A, B, etc.) is more important than order. Wario and Diddy are pretty close imo (and I'm guessing even you would only have them 1-2 spots apart), so nitpicking is dumb.

Order represents how good they are in comparison to the other characters, even if marginally better it is noted.

4) See #3/quote]

See above quote

5) See #1

See first quote

6) Eh, they're pretty even imo. I'm not really concerned if they're reversed but still right next to each other. If you really want, I'll tell you you're right.

7) That tier (that I placed TL and Peach in) could really go in a bunch of ways. I feel TL is slightly better (he was higher on both tier list 3.0 and japan's tier list as well), but honestly, they're both pretty close. Again, tier placement is more important than order.

Depends on your view of things.

If your biggest criticisms were Sonic, Pokemon Trainer, Peach not being 3 spots higher, and a few other 1 spot changes, I feel it was a decent list.

I suppose you missed the other criticisms?
-.-
I dont really care for Sonic's placement, moreso Marth's actually.

I also find it hilarious the number of people that respond with "lol" to people's lists and then often post one with Diddy at #15 and Yoshi in high -_- (exaggeration for god's sake)

*shrugs*

 

[arcane9211]

Why?



I dont really care for Sonic's placement, moreso Marth's actually.

Icies: Good defensive game, solid projectile to help approach and lead into grabs, infinite grabs obv., very few tough matchups (snake, meta, wario I think, 2 of which are only 60:40 if I remember correctly), decent kills set ups, very tough to grab because of nana, can't be chaingrabbed with nana.

Weaknesses I guess would be small grab range despite the ridiculous pay off, getting outranged by characters (although I feel they're not hurt by this quite as much as a lot of other characters) and, of course, when they become separated.

Edit:
D3's trouble with meta, olimar, diddy, falco, a few others even in lower tiers puts him lower than icies imo.
Marth has snake and meta trouble, and I don't feel he's as good against Diddy as a lot of people would like to believe. Also one of the easiest characters for Icies to cg.
Falco has trouble with a lot of the high/top tiers other than D3, which hurts considering that's what he'll be seeing most of the time. Tough for him to get kills, but makes up for it in other areas.

I'm a Marth main and D3/Falco/Pit alt, and have both played and talked to great marths, and feel Marth is 5 at the highest, 10 at the lowest. Anything from 6-9 I won't be complaining about. As someone who plays all 3 (Marth, D3, Falco), I believe they should all be next to each other on the tier list for the time being.

I don't mind you having Icies at 8, that's perfectly reasonable at this point in time. I just happen to think a bit more highly of them than you atm.

 

[Shaya]

Marth's placements will be drastic depending on whether he can solidify his natural advantages (and previously all 60:40 advantages throughout most of Brawl's life time) on Falco, Diddy Kong and Wario.

Most consider the Wario one all well and good.
I talk to -a lot- of Marths about Diddy, atm it's conceivably even, but that could bounce back.
Marth has a 0-50% (dthrow x10, tipper fsmash) on Falco that isn't that widespread yet...

bleh.

 

[Smoom77]

I am so tired of people saying that some characters are easier for ICs to chaingrab. Where are people getting this stuff? >_>

 

[adumbrodeus]

As I remember like every CG works on him to be fair...


But the assumption should be technical perfection, so it doesn't matter.

 

[DanGR]

^Within the realm of human possibility, not perfection.

 

[arcane9211]

From the ice climbers guide: "I suggest you use Marth because he's pretty much the easiest character to chaingrab for beginners, so let's start."

But adumbrodeus is right anyway.

 

[Smoom77]

Let me explain. There are usually three different characters you practice to get the different weights down. Kawaii told me for..

Light: Meta
Middle: Lucario/Marth
Heavy: Ike

It's an approximation of the different weight classes so you can get a range of practice.

 

[adumbrodeus]

^Within the realm of human possibility, not perfection.

"Technical perfection" in a video game assumes "humanly possible", since it's not possible it's beyond the sphere of the "perfection" we are discussing.

 

[Demp]

A small addition to the passed DK discussion: move him to low-tier so I can raep faec in low-tier tournies.

kthx

edit- or at LEAST make him drop 4 places, just for tradition's sake.

 

[Chuee]

No
I won't let you do that sir.

 

[BSP]

@arcane

Why did you put mario over Sonic? I keep seeing that in a lot of lists, but I really don't understand why people do it.

 

[arcane9211]

@arcane

Why did you put mario over Sonic? I keep seeing that in a lot of lists, but I really don't understand why people do it.

Basically for the same reasons Pierce described in the OP.

I also don't know too much about Sonic (and PT), and almost wanted to leave them out of the list I made all together. I figured it'd be weird to do that though =/

I'll probably start toying around with Sonic soon to get a better idea of his capabilities.

 

[Afropony]

Let me explain. There are usually three different characters you practice to get the different weights down. Kawaii told me for..

Light: Meta
Middle: Lucario/Marth
Heavy: Ike

It's an approximation of the different weight classes so you can get a range of practice.

I'm pretty sure Marth is classified as a light weight.

 

[Conviction]

Nah he is middlewieght.

 

[Shenlong]

Marth weighs less than Peach. If that isn't light I don't know what is.

 

[BSP]

Marth is a light weight.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Marth weighs less than Peach. If that isn't light I don't know what is.

peach is middle-weight too.

 

[Mr. Johan]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546

Mario 1
Luigi 0.995
Sonic 0.985
Ness 0.980
Pit 0.980
Lucas 0.980
Diddy Kong 0.975
Toon Link 0.970
Ice Climber 0.970
Peach 0.960
Marth 0.944
Sheik 0.935
Zelda 0.935
Falco 0.919
Olimar 0.919
Zero Suit Samus 0.914
Fox 0.910
Pikachu 0.904
Meta Knight 0.904
Kirby 0.899
Squirtle 0.884
Mr. Game & Watch 0.884
Jigglypuff 0.849

They're both lighter than Mario, but not among the "really" lightweights like Metaknight and Kirby.

So mid-light?

 

[Nihongo-ookami]

Kirby? Down in C? LOLWUT?

I'd REALLY like to hear the explanation for that.

I mean, he has some disadvantageous matchups, but they're all definitely winnable.

ICs the problem? Kirby's in the air most of the time, so he doesn't have to worry as much about being grabbed. Even if he is on the ground, he still has some really safe approaches.(FTilt, DTilt, Reverse UTilt, SHBair...)

Kirby deserves middle of A Tier, IMHO.

 

[Conviction]

Marth weighs less than Peach. If that isn't light I don't know what is.

Marth is a light weight.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546



They're both lighter than Mario, but not among the "really" lightweights like Metaknight and Kirby.

So mid-light?

>.> Soo that's basically is middle wieght I always though Lightweight was Fox-down. Also Peach and Marth weight is such a big differene.....

 

[imcooked]

All right, here's my list:

S: Metaknight, Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario
A: Marth, King Dedede, Ice Climbers, Pikachu, Mr. Game & Watch, Olimar, Lucario, R.O.B.
B: Kirby, Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, Peach, Donkey Kong, Pit, Wolf
C: Fox, Sheik, Luigi, Pokemon Trainer, Ness, Lucas, Ike
D: Mario, Bowser, Sonic, Samus, Link, Yoshi
E: Jigglypuff, Zelda, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf

 

[Conviction]

This actually looks good.

 

[mountain_tiger]

All right, here's my list:

S: Metaknight, Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario
A: Marth, King Dedede, Ice Climbers, Pikachu, Mr. Game & Watch, Olimar, Lucario, R.O.B.
B: Kirby, Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, Peach, Donkey Kong, Pit, Wolf
C: Fox, Sheik, Luigi, Pokemon Trainer, Ness, Lucas, Ike
D: Mario, Bowser, Sonic, Samus, Link, Yoshi
E: Jigglypuff, Zelda, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf

Not bad, but I can see a few problems:

- Olimar > Mr. G&W

- ZSS should be higher

- DK and Peach should switch places

- Lucas > Ness

- Link is not that high. Neither is Samus.

- Zelda is not 4th worst.

Other than that, that's an OK list.

 

[Conviction]

Actually Fox and Wolf can be switch Fox by a medium margin is betta than Wolf.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

All right, here's my list:

S: Metaknight, Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario
A: Marth, King Dedede, Ice Climbers, Pikachu, Mr. Game & Watch, Olimar, Lucario, R.O.B.
B: Kirby, Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, Peach, Donkey Kong, Pit, Wolf
C: Fox, Sheik, Luigi, Pokemon Trainer, Ness, Lucas, Ike
D: Mario, Bowser, Sonic, Samus, Link, Yoshi
E: Jigglypuff, Zelda, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf

Personally believe that Kirby/Wolf are too high and Pit. but its overall good in areas.

 

[Shaya]

I love how when people post a list,
the first thing people do is

"I see a few problems:
ChANGE THIS THIS AND THIS so it looks exactly like the tier list i have in my head XD"

 

[Conviction]

>.< I only had one problem with it.

Hurtin me Shaya. T.T

 

[DMG]

Kirby? Down in C? LOLWUT?

I'd REALLY like to hear the explanation for that.

I mean, he has some disadvantageous matchups, but they're all definitely winnable.

ICs the problem? Kirby's in the air most of the time, so he doesn't have to worry as much about being grabbed. Even if he is on the ground, he still has some really safe approaches.(FTilt, DTilt, Reverse UTilt, SHBair...)

Kirby deserves middle of A Tier, IMHO.

Middle of A tier?

That must be a HUUUUGE A tier for Kirby to suddenly be in the middle lmao.

 

[Conviction]

Don't worry he combined A,B,C tier, whatelse could have he been thinking?

 

[arcane9211]

Kirby? Down in C? LOLWUT?

I'd REALLY like to hear the explanation for that.

I mean, he has some disadvantageous matchups, but they're all definitely winnable.

ICs the problem? Kirby's in the air most of the time, so he doesn't have to worry as much about being grabbed. Even if he is on the ground, he still has some really safe approaches.(FTilt, DTilt, Reverse UTilt, SHBair...)

Kirby deserves middle of A Tier, IMHO.

Assuming you're referring to me, I had 8 tiers, so it's not a true C tier. If he was in what I guess would be A on my list, and Meta/Snake were S, he'd be in the same tier as Diddy and Wario. If you were thinking Meta/Snake were SS, Kirby would be grouped with Marth/Falco/D3 etc. You really think he should be THAT high?

Focus on who he's grouped with, not tier placement.

I feel like a lot of people forget that there does not have to be a set number of tiers or a set number of people in each tier.

Also, why can't anyone decide between Lucas/Ness on who is better? This discussion I assume has happened numerous times, but what has been the concensus lately? (and if they're still relatively close, I don't see why people argue a 1 spot difference on lists)

 

[6Mizu]

My turn!

S Tier: , , , , ,
A-Tier, , , , , ,
B-Tier: , , , ,
C-Tier: , , , , , :shiek:
D-Tier: , , ,
E-Tier: , , , ,
F-Tier: , , ,

 

[Conviction]

Personally this one is worst than the other guy.

 

[6Mizu]

Who's are you talking about mine?