Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[Seagull Joe]

Funny, I recall just last week I ask what you thought about Sheik compared to wolf and you said they were about even.

I change my mind all the time Tristin. Though Sheik and Wolf are about even character wise. I was just posting stupid things cause of GoldenAdept's random ridiculous posts.

No one cares, Wolf loses to Shiek.

There. Goooooooooooooooooood game Smashboards.

A Wolf that shields... gets grabbed... which puts you in the air... which means when you have to land.... FTILT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNN!!!!

Flarble - --- - --- - Garble -- - ---- - -- --- - - - -- - Garble!

Don't question me, my word is law. Shiek beats Wolf. The end. Of this story. And this argument.

Sheik beats Wolf. Probably 60-40 Sheik's favor.

Lol Snakeee beat you with Sheik? Lol his sheik is ok but nothing impressive lmao. This is why people shouldn't comment on matchups that they don't understand. Go play Neo and then get back to us.

Edit: You just said you go all WOlf but now you use MK for DDD? gtfo. you can't say all Wolf's matchups are manageable when your using secondaries. Lol people are dumb.

All of them are manageable, but that doesn't mean I'm going to do a 30-70 matchup with Wolf vs D3 when I can go Mk and the matchup is 60-40 my favor. PLAY 2 WIN. And yeah Neo never shows up to tourneys, but I know his Sheik would beat my Wolf. And I have always used Mk for D3.

This argument is stupid anyway because both characters aren't viable anyway. People only care about the A tier and S tier characters when it really comes down to it for this game.

Like really the tier list is:
1. Mk
2. Snake
3. Diddy
4. All the other characters

 

[-Mars-]

30-70 isn't manageable at high levels of play for the record but ok I thought you were implying that Wolf didn't lose to Sheik or something.

 

[<π]

wolf is crazy underrated, he could do so well against a lot of the cast.. but he gets comboed/chained by everything pika d3 shiek falco if it wasn't for that I'd have him up there with sheik on my lists. You can beat a lot of characters with him, but you can make mistakes and you are only human. Wolf just gets punished too hard I think.

 

[Snakeee]

Lol Snakeee beat you with Sheik? Lol his sheik is ok but nothing impressive lmao. This is why people shouldn't comment on matchups that they don't understand. Go play Neo and then get back to us.

Edit: You just said you go all WOlf but now you use MK for DDD? gtfo. you can't say all Wolf's matchups are manageable when your using secondaries. Lol people are dumb.

I'll MM any Wolf with Sheik for all the money in the world I believe that match up is terrible. Also, don't underestimate me sir I think my Sheik is about on Neo's level but in all fairness he might be slightly more knowledgeable about the character in general than me.

I almost JV 4 stocked Seagull's Wolf in that game btw. I'm not bragging, I just think that match up is ********.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Wolf takes moderate risks, for moderate reward, which makes him a moderate, or mid-tier character.

His moveset isn't bad at all, but at the same time, there's nothing outstanding about it. His moveset is actually better than some characters that are above him, but those characters are less vulnerable to locks/combos, or have other beneficial traits.

Frankeee, you have to solve that Falco problem!

 

[tocador]

I'll MM any Wolf with Sheik for all the money in the world I believe that match up is terrible. Also, don't underestimate me sir I think my Sheik is about on Neo's level but in all fairness he might be slightly more knowledgeable about the character in general than me.

I almost JV 4 stocked Seagull's Wolf in that game btw. I'm not bragging, I just think that match up is ********.

I dont know who said it, i think is was HMW, but did you try using MK or something in Pound 4? Cause the comentator of the livestream @ Pound 4 made a really funny joke about you rofl xP!

Sorry to get off topic, but i just needed to say this D:

 

[<π]

no, no! Wolfs move set is amazing. The definition of safe (bair frame advantage on sheild, crazy range) and an amazing punisher (fsmash is five frames or something giving wolf the ability to punish pretty much any characters spacer out of sheild as well as wiffed attacks) one of the best movesets in the game IMO falling short to MK and snake and a few others. His pummel refreshes moves, his throws are crazy damage (comparably)
a spike.

His moveset over all is really really good.

It's his weight problems and to a lesser extent his recovery that are his problems. there are too many characters that take much too much of an advantage of these flaws.

 

[Seagull Joe]

no, no! Wolfs move set is amazing. The definition of safe (bair frame advantage on sheild, crazy range) and an amazing punisher (fsmash is five frames or something giving wolf the ability to punish pretty much any characters spacer out of sheild as well as wiffed attacks) one of the best movesets in the game IMO falling short to MK and snake and a few others. His pummel refreshes moves, his throws are crazy damage (comparably)
a spike.

His moveset over all is really really good.

It's his weight problems and to a lesser extent his recovery that are his problems. there are too many characters that take much too much of an advantage of these flaws.

Actually Wolf's only amazing move is his Bair because it's got range and is lagless. Fsmash is slower then 5 frames and is terrible when it hits a shield because you get super punished.

I keep wondering why I continue to use a character that gets ***** by Mk, D3, Sheik, and Pika.

30-70 isn't manageable at high levels of play for the record but ok I thought you were implying that Wolf didn't lose to Sheik or something.

When I mean "manageable", I mean it's not 20-80 or worst.

 

[<π]

Wolf can beat those characters you just have to be perfect, and thats kinda hard. I love wolf, but too many match ups just screw him over.

fsmash is still amazing.

 

[Snakeee]

Wolf takes moderate risks, for moderate reward, which makes him a moderate, or mid-tier character.

His moveset isn't bad at all, but at the same time, there's nothing outstanding about it. His moveset is actually better than some characters that are above him, but those characters are less vulnerable to locks/combos, or have other beneficial traits.

Frankeee, you have to solve that Falco problem!

Practicing the match up with my new main

I dont know who said it, i think is was HMW, but did you try using MK or something in Pound 4? Cause the comentator of the livestream @ Pound 4 made a really funny joke about you rofl xP!

Sorry to get off topic, but i just needed to say this D:

Yeah, what did they say? >__>
I was beating some top players with my meta, and I could have beaten Malcolm with him. I didn't have enough control yet of his match ups and I randomly SDed, but now that I've settled on Meta you should see me win some tourneys now.

 

[smashkng]

Wolf has a great moveset. The things that stop him are the gay chain grabs and locks and having very limited angles in his recovery.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Practicing the match up with my new main

I'm guessing regular Samus or Peach since you love girl characters. I'm going with Peach.

 

[6Mizu]

My turn!

S Tier: , , , , ,
A-Tier, , , , , ,
B-Tier: , , , ,
C-Tier: , , , , , :shiek:
D-Tier: , , ,
E-Tier: , , , ,
F-Tier: , , ,

So after Pound 4, does anyone agree with Diddy in 2nd tier. Like I predicted? -.-

 

[Flayl]

If one of the best ZSS has to resort to picking MK, pretty sure that means ZSS shouldn't be considered A tier.

Spoiler

ZSS baiting

 

[6Mizu]

^ Troll!
LOL

 

[adumbrodeus]

If one of the best ZSS has to resort to picking MK, pretty sure that means ZSS shouldn't be considered A tier.

Spoiler

ZSS baiting

By that logic our entire tierlist should be f tier.

 

[Flayl]

By that logic our entire tierlist should be f tier.

I was going more along the line that Snakee didn't pick up a secondary, he went straight to MK. A-tiers are completely viable with secondaries.

MK is just the easy way out. It's not even the best, but it's the easiest.

 

[-Mars-]

Yea ZSS for top 10 bwahahahaha wat happened to all that hype?

 

[6Mizu]

So after Pound 4, does anyone agree with Diddy in 2nd tier. Like I predicted? -.-

So no one agrees w/ Diddy being in 2nd place then?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I was going more along the line that Snakee didn't pick up a secondary, he went straight to MK. A-tiers are completely viable with secondaries.

MK is just the easy way out. It's not even the best, but it's the easiest.

I talked to snakeee about his decision to go MK, and his decision wasn't really based on tournament viability, at least on the core.


He told me that he found MK more enjoyable because of his massive number of options in just about every situation, at the same time he implied that playing ZSS had become unenjoyable by comparison cause ZSS simply lacks the good options that MK has. Sure other characters have options and good ones, but nobody has the overall versitility of MK.


So yea, the reason he went straight to MK is not because a secondary wouldn't have made his ZSS viable, it was because he wanted to main mk because he likes playing MK. Gee, playing a character because you like his playstyle, that says a lot about his old character, doesn't it? [/sarcasm]

 

[Flayl]

Yes, yes it does lol.

 

[Jigglymaster]

So after Pound 4, does anyone agree with Diddy in 2nd tier. Like I predicted? -.-

Why is Jiggly 2nd worst on this tier list?

I got 33rd with her at Pound 4. Fix that now, she SHOULD NOT be going down.

Watch this video and tell me that Jigglypuff is still the 2nd worst character in the game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVXQAfYLWJI

 

[-Mars-]

have u ever considered that maybe nobody has learned the Jiggz matchup because nobody cares?

 

[Jigglymaster]

have u ever considered that maybe nobody has learned the Jiggz matchup because nobody cares?

And because of that she should be below Link and Falcon? Hell no. You can say that same exact statement for Falcon, Link, Ganon, and even Samus and do you see them on the top 48? No.

I'm not saying that Jigglypuff shouldn't be low tier by any means. At best shes Mid E tier. But you honestly can't think that she'll go down.

 

[DMG]

MK player didn't look like he knew the matchup

Aside from that, obviously Jiggs isn't that bad. I would know, I play as her.

 

[<π]

I think that is part of it, but I also think jiggs is just flat out under rated.

 

[HoN3Y64]

have u ever considered that maybe nobody has learned the Jiggz matchup because nobody cares?

That grape soda looks pretty awesome.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yes, yes it does lol.

Why?


"I have more fun with this character" says nothing about tournament viability, it says something about one thing, personal preference.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Why?


"I have more fun with this character" says nothing about tournament viability, it says something about one thing, personal preference.

I would like a character too if he had plenty of good viable options in every situation as well.

 

[Snakeee]

I would like a character too if he had plenty of good viable options in every situation as well.

Exactly lols

Jokes aside, I really do like playing the character but this is what really sold me...

There have been countless, countless situations in every single game I've played where I would straight up make the right read on what someone was going to do and quickly think to myself "Ok, I know he is going to do this. What can I do to counter it?....Absolutely nothing " -_-

With Metaknight (and for the most part with top tiers) this almost never happens, period. I can win by outplaying my opponent, which SHOULD be how it goes anyway. Of course this is a game with many characters, and everyone plays for different reasons. I for one, want to be the best player. I'm a very competitive person with everything I'm interested in. A lot of people just assumed I was the kind of person that only wanted to stick with their main and bring out that character's potential. This wasn't the case, even though I loved developing a lot of ZSS' metagame and seeing what I can do with her. I had also thought that there was a good enough chance that the character was good enough to make it at a national level. Unfortunately, even though some aspects of the character are virtually unmatched, her imbalances are extremely exploitable.

ZSS has a near perfect game in the air, and can juggle insanely well. Her up air is by far the best in the game because she has almost no hurtbox while doing it. Here we have a quick move with decent range, that can combo into itself and bait airdodges, as well as being disjointed and able to beat basically any move in the game (at least in the right position). With her having the highest jump in the game with boost Up B, she can air gimp with this move pretty often. The up air is her main option out of shield as well and can punish just about any aerial approach with powershielding.

That's just one little aspect of why her air game is so good and I'm not going to go into more detail. Despite all of this, however, her game on the ground is ultimately HORRENDOUS. Except on a couple of characters that get popped up easily or have a super poor shield grab, her jab is 100% unsafe. Ironically, for having a one frame jab, the other two are so god awful that it makes the entire move useless. Actually, even those few characters that have trouble can still punish it with decent DI.

None of her moves on the ground are safe at all on most characters. Her aerials have to all be done on the way down on all but the super tall characters, and they are surprisingly unsafe on block (at least always if powershielded).

Side B and D-smash are TERRIBLE to be using as spacing tools on the ground. I got kind of annoyed (which made him kind of annoyed) when Seibrik told me that Nick Riddle had still been relying on these moves in that manner. It's not even the fact that they're still relying on them, but it's the fact that they were STILL WORKING! These moves are so slow starting up that they can be powershielded on reaction and punished accordingly. Most characters can simply dash grab after the powershield on both moves (and paralyzer which is even worse) or if not they likely have an even better option than that. Seibrik tried to tell me that he had all of these mix ups with these moves which made it hard, but I have tried the mix ups he mentioned and most good players I've tried them on were still able to punish them on reaction after maybe the first time I did them or two.

The thing is that ZSS has always been kind of a "WTF" character that is very very different compared to the rest of the cast. Because of that, I can kind of understand why so many people are still thrown off by her and haven't figured out how to fight well against her. I am not going to bank on the fact that my opponent might not know the match up because even if they don't there have been quite a few opponents that were just so super adaptive that they were able to learn the match up as quickly as within one set against me. Not only that, but of course people would figure it out eventually. I'm not even saying ZSS is a gimmick character because she is not at heart. I have for the most part stopped relying on trying to space her moves like that, and just try and make crazy reads on the ground, or just do whatever I could until I brought the battle into the air. This is definitely not enough for me to compete at a top level with her though, so I had to switch my main in order to try and make it to the top now.


....Wowww I did not intend to write all of this here o_O
Why the **** did I write all that lmao

Btw, ZSS still IS probably around the top 10 characters. The thing is, only the top 7 or so at best are viable at a national level really

 

[o-Serin-o]

tl;dr


You kinda bored me with most of it, but I read enough to get the grasp of what you were saying.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Agreed with Snakeee. I think ZSS is top 10 but it doesn't matter when only 5-7 characters are good enough to place anymore.

 

[<π]

I think ZSS can place

 

[DMG]

Mid High

yeah she can

 

[demonictoonlink]

How is she vs Diddy, the new best character in the game because ADHD won pound?

 

[Kewkky]

How is she vs Diddy, the new best character in the game because ADHD won pound?

I'm guessing that this post has sarcasm. But, just in case it doesn't...

So, ADHD winning Pound4 immediately makes DIddy #1? What about all the other MANY occasions MK takes #1? And what about the positions of all the other MK mainers in the top 10, then the next Diddy mainer being a couple of spots below? Diddy being #1 is farfetched when you look at the big picture and leave small details for after the big ones.

 

[demonictoonlink]

It was sarcasm. ^^

 

[Justblaze647]

So I guess its safe to say that Diddy ADHD is going up

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@DMG:

I think ZSS is low-high, probably, not mid high. I also don't believe she is good enough to place in the money without a secondary because of Falco.

With that said there are a lot of A tier characters atm that probably couldn't place WITH a secondary, and haven't been performing as well as ZSS has.

 

[Nefarious B]

I can agree with pretty much everything sfp and snakeee said.