Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[Yonder]

Face it, people say "These characters are underrepped" Yes, they are, and in the end though, they will most likely stay underused and their metagame won't advance cause we are too lazy to discover a new path to winning and prefer to stick to the easiest and most well known path: Meta Knight (and other top tiers)

 

[Goldenadept]

yeah... thats sadly very true, but thats just how competitive games work. I'll still have fun playing as wolf and link though, but when its time to get serious i got snake waiting on the bleacher :D

 

[Z1GMA]

all i care about is for the low tier part to be more accurate. It is HARDCORE messed up right now.

This is true.

 

[gm jack]

its the same with sheik, she has nothing on wolf (he has better priority, range, killing power, knockback, damage, and weight) over her, the only thing to look out for is the ftilt which is not that hard to get around especially if that's all the sheik is going for.
I'm not sure but doesn't the lock have to take place at a fairly low % to actually lock him in? I'm pretty biased about wolf but so far I haven't seen any reason for him to not be at least mid to high C tier at least

Priority - Doesn't really exist. As neither are particularly disjointed with their attacks, speed is what matters, and Sheik has that as her main strength.
Range - Not to the point it matter, Sheik has really solid range.
Killpower - Ftilt lock to Usmash tipper says hi. Oh, and she's one of the best gimpers in the game.
Knockback - she combos well because she has so little in everything but her few kill moves.
Damage - see above. Sheik has a load of true combos.
Weight - true. However, it is part of what makes Wolf so easy to Ftilt lock, combined with how fast he falls.

Wolf has a load of good things for him, but they all work against him in various matchups. His offense is fine, but his defensive capabilities are not strong enough against other people's offensive options.

And yes they do need to be at a fairly low % (or the Ftilt needs to be decayed), but it only needs to hit once to make it guaranteed. For example, the Fox vs Sheik matchup would be in Foxes slight favour. However, Sheik needs to get to 27% with needles and jabs (which is really easy) and then walk after Fox and land a single Ftilt to take the stock. It only takes a landing to be read once for the stock to go.

 

[Shaya]

Sheik's speed allows her to close in the distance against Wolf's GTFO/zoning tools quite well.
Her punishment game i.e. one 5 frame ftilt thats safe on shield = stock.
But her bair does fine against Wolf's, and her fair angles in ways that can win the aerial trade, needles shows wolf's ground manouverability weaknesses, all her grabs place wolf in terrible positions...

Wolf can't force Sheik to approach, which really messes with Wolf... hard.

 

[Kitamerby]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias

 

[Goldenadept]

Sheik's speed allows her to close in the distance against Wolf's GTFO/zoning tools quite well.
Her punishment game i.e. one 5 frame ftilt thats safe on shield = stock.
But her bair does fine against Wolf's, and her fair angles in ways that can win the aerial trade, needles shows wolf's ground manouverability weaknesses, all her grabs place wolf in terrible positions...

Wolf can't force Sheik to approach, which really messes with Wolf... hard.

I'll give you speed part, she's definitely fast but not so fast as to mess up a wolf that is perfectly spacing his bairs and keeping out of range, which really isn't too hard to do if you've got good control.
BUT, sheiks bair does not do fine against wolfs, his bair will beat hers every time, its not even close there, and her fair has the same downward angle as his but wolfs hitbox on his fair is almost twice as big and will also beat hers anytime, it lasts longer as well.
the grabs are true, all of them can really hurt wolf bad but the needles aren't all that much of a problem, if you're going to stand there throwing needles wolf will just reflect them back at you and his blaster goes through needles, no one can force the other to approach really, but wolfs blaster will help more than easily telegraphed needles... not that wolfs blaster is much better

 

[Shaya]

sheik's bair and fair come out faster than wolf's though.

Sheik's bair has around the same range as wolf bair as well.
Even if the disjoint is less.

 

[humble]

I think this is really funny to see Goldenadepts arguments, because it doesn't really matter; it is similar to saying "DK sure has a great bair, it out ranges D3's bair and spaces well." which is nice, except for the fact that he is still gonna get grabbed and then CGed to death. However for this case, it is sheiks ftilt; it doesn't matter whose fair is better, because sheik is going for that ftilt and will eventually land it. It is much faster then your reaction speed, it has enough range that avoiding it entirely isn't possible all match, and it is safe on shield because of its speed. It is, in other words, a good move, which is definitely going to hit if sheik is determined to land it, because wolf lacks the options to avoid it. And because landing it is so deadly, and it is going to land alot, wolf loses this matchup hard. Stating that some of his other moves are better then some of hers is just a strawman to avoid the fact that the one tool that imbalances this matchup so much exists.


But have fun theorycrafting Golden. In a serious match for a tourney you wouldn't use wolf against sheik despite all your arguments about it, and I think that speaks volumes in itself about the matchup.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Sheik's Ftilt is not safe on Wolf's shield.

Rant:

Also, things being safe on block is obviously excellent, but, you can be safe on block, and still at a frame disadvantage. This is normally the case and it's still bad. That's the problem with Brawl in general. You attacked someone's shield with good spacing, they blocked, you remained safe from direct punishment, but you're now in a disadvantageous situation. Grats.

It's no coincidence that the best character's in this game, do the best job of circumventing this.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Jigglypuff Pound 4 Results

Pool 22:

1st Mew2King (MK)
2nd Dapuffster (Jiggly, Diddy)
3rd -hilt- (Olimar)
Eliminated: Aniolas, Cartoon, Umby, Lil'b


Pool 16

1st Ally (MK)
2nd Dapuffster (Jiggly, Diddy)
3rd dmbrandon (MK)
Eliminated: Kirinblaze, Lou, Poltergust


1: ADHD (Diddy)
2: Mew2King (Metaknight)
3: Ally (Snake/Metaknight)
4: KSizzle (Metaknight/Lucario)
5: Shadow_111 (Metaknight)
5: Judge (Metaknight)
7: Havok (Metaknight)
7: Logic (Olimar)
9: Lee Martin (Metaknight)
9: Seibrik (Metaknight)
9: Ninjalink (Diddy)
9: Lain (Ice Climbers)
13: ChuDat (Kirby)
13: Malcolm (Wario)
13: Vex Kasrani (Dedede/Bowser)
13: DEHF (Falco)
17: co18 (Dedede)
17: Sanoscy (Metaknight)
17: Candy (Snake)
17: Alpha Zealot (Diddy)
17: DjIskascribble (Metaknight)
17: Dekar (Diddy)
17: Fatal (Snake)
17: Hunger (Wario)
25: Atomsk (Dedede)
25: HAT (Dedede/Wario)
25: dmbrandon (Metaknight)
25: Cable (Donkey Kong)
25: Xzax (Metaknight)
25: Infern Angelis (Snake)
25: Ling Ling (Dedede)
25: Bizkit (Snake)
33: jtails (Diddy)
33: Smash64 (Ness)
33: Dapuffster (Jigglypuff/Diddy)
33: Y.B.M. (Kirby)
33: Omni (Metaknight)
33: Stingers (Metaknight/ROB)
33: Junebug (Lucario/DK)
33: Bloodcross (Marth???)
33: Jash (Toon Link)
33: Hyro (Toon Link)
33: Takeover (Snake)
33: Boss (Luigi)
33: Mikey Lenetia (Peach)
33: Zucco (Lucario)
33: Pierce (Marth)
33: NEO (Marth)


Jigglypuff, an F tier character in top 48...

1. Jigglypuff needs to be higher on the tier list IMO, definatly not F tier, should be mid to high E tier.
2. Get at my Jigglypuff I used Jiggs twice as much as Diddy in the final bracket.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Jigglypuff Pound 4 Results

Pool 22:

1st Mew2King (MK)
2nd Dapuffster (Jiggly, Diddy)
3rd -hilt- (Olimar)
Eliminated: Aniolas, Cartoon, Umby, Lil'b


Pool 16

1st Ally (MK)
2nd Dapuffster (Jiggly, Diddy)
3rd dmbrandon (MK)
Eliminated: Kirinblaze, Lou, Poltergust


1: ADHD (Diddy)
2: Mew2King (Metaknight)
3: Ally (Snake/Metaknight)
4: KSizzle (Metaknight/Lucario)
5: Shadow_111 (Metaknight)
5: Judge (Metaknight)
7: Havok (Metaknight)
7: Logic (Olimar)
9: Lee Martin (Metaknight)
9: Seibrik (Metaknight)
9: Ninjalink (Diddy)
9: Lain (Ice Climbers)
13: ChuDat (Kirby)
13: Malcolm (Wario)
13: Vex Kasrani (Dedede/Bowser)
13: DEHF (Falco)
17: co18 (Dedede)
17: Sanoscy (Metaknight)
17: Candy (Snake)
17: Alpha Zealot (Diddy)
17: DjIskascribble (Metaknight)
17: Dekar (Diddy)
17: Fatal (Snake)
17: Hunger (Wario)
25: Atomsk (Dedede)
25: HAT (Dedede/Wario)
25: dmbrandon (Metaknight)
25: Cable (Donkey Kong)
25: Xzax (Metaknight)
25: Infern Angelis (Snake)
25: Ling Ling (Dedede)
25: Bizkit (Snake)
33: jtails (Diddy)
33: Smash64 (Ness)
33: Dapuffster (Jigglypuff/Diddy)
33: Y.B.M. (Kirby)
33: Omni (Metaknight)
33: Stingers (Metaknight/ROB)
33: Junebug (Lucario/DK)
33: Bloodcross (Marth???)
33: Jash (Toon Link)
33: Hyro (Toon Link)
33: Takeover (Snake)
33: Boss (Luigi)
33: Mikey Lenetia (Peach)
33: Zucco (Lucario)
33: Pierce (Marth)
33: NEO (Marth)


Jigglypuff, an F tier character in top 48...

1. Jigglypuff needs to be higher on the tier list IMO, definatly not F tier, should be mid to high E tier.
2. Get at my Jigglypuff I used Jiggs twice as much as Diddy in the final bracket.

He did. And beat Mks with him.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Told you guys jiggs is underrated, her MUs are too good for her tier.

 

[smashkng]

He used secondaries though.

 

[solecalibur]

jiggs forums needs to be reworked imo jiggs is very very underrated not B tier material yet but maybe C

 

[DanGR]

What Meta Knight lost to your Jigglypuff, and what characters/players did you use and win against with her?

 

[smashkng]

Doesn't Jigglypuff get hard ***** by characters like Snake and G&W?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Diddy supplement also helps alot too.

 

[smashkng]

Jigllypuff is definitely low tier. It doesn't have just 1 bad matchup like DK, it has a lot more than just that. So like all low tiers having secondaries is a must. I would get surprised if it really was playing just Jigglypuff.

 

[OverLade]

anyone who hasnt played co 18 doesnt really know how good ddd is against snake. i know that MU real wel and let me tell you, it sucks. ddd is a snake counter for sure.

This matchup is definetly 60:40 Dedede. And this is coming from someone who has actually taken games off him (as well as Seibrik's Dedede).

Also I'd like to throw out that just because one character beats another character doesn't mean that they should be higher on the tier list.

Diddy beating MK for example wouldn't make Diddy higher than Snake (necessarily). I think its possible that Diddy has a better matchup against MK than Snake does, but you have to keep in mind that Diddy loses to Snake (60:40 and arguably worse according to many top diddy mains).

Then you see matchups like Diddy vs Falco (Which I think Diddy wins) and Diddy vs ICs (Which I think Diddy loses). Just food for thought, not really stating anything.

 

[Jigglymaster]

What Meta Knight lost to your Jigglypuff, and what characters/players did you use and win against with her?

It was against Junebug's MK. I had 6 matches in the Final Bracket, 4 of the times I was Jigglypuff and 2 of the times I was Diddy.

Regardless if I used Diddy as a secondary Jigglypuff was my main in this tournament and I got that far from her. Do you see any other F tier character in the top 48 regardless if they had a secondary or not? No you didn't. The only other low tier character there was Ness(Smash64) and Luigi(Boss) who both got the same placing as I did.

Finals Bracket
Vs Junebug
Diddy vs Lucario on Lylat, Diddy Wins
Jiggly vs MK on Frigate, Jiggly Wins

Vs Fatal
Diddy vs Snake on SV, Snake Wins (2 stocked)
Jiggly vs Snake on RC, Snake Wins (Brought him to 50% on last life)

Vs HAT
Jiggly vs Wario on SV (Wario wins, last hit win)
Jiggly vs Wario on Frigate (Wario wins, Last hit win)

 

[ice_cream_man]

New Tier List-


1. MK
2. Diddy

and then other characters

 

[DanGR]

It was against Junebug's MK. I had 6 matches in the Final Bracket, 4 of the times I was Jigglypuff and 2 of the times I was Diddy.

Regardless if I used Diddy as a secondary Jigglypuff was my main in this tournament and I got that far from her. Do you see any other F tier character in the top 48 regardless if they had a secondary or not? No you didn't. The only other low tier character there was Ness(Smash64) and Luigi(Boss) who both got the same placing as I did.

Finals Bracket
Vs Junebug
Diddy vs Lucario on Lylat, Diddy Wins
Jiggly vs MK on Frigate, Jiggly Wins

Vs Fatal
Diddy vs Snake on SV, Snake Wins (2 stocked)
Jiggly vs Snake on RC, Snake Wins (Brought him to 50% on last life)

Vs HAT
Jiggly vs Wario on SV (Wario wins, last hit win)
Jiggly vs Wario on Frigate (Wario wins, Last hit win)

Now, I could blame those close matches with Fatal and HAT on inexperience and/or you being the better player, but I honestly don't know much about any of you guys. My point is moot in that regard.

MK though... If that was recorded I'd love to see it. I'm currently under the opinion that it's an impossible matchup for Jigglypuff (obviously you think otherwise though). Short hop f-airs and upb just wreck her too badly.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Now, I could blame those close matches with Fatal and HAT on inexperience and/or you being the better player, but I honestly don't know much about any of you guys. My point is moot in that regard.

MK though... If that was recorded I'd love to see it. I'm currently under the opinion that it's an impossible matchup for Jigglypuff (obviously you think otherwise though). Short hop f-airs and upb just wreck her too badly.

Nah it wasn't recorded, I wanted to record the match but it didn't have replay hacks on so I couldn't do nothing about it =/


It dosn't matter wether MK can kill Jiggly pretty easily all Jigglypuff has to do is get Mk to 60% and then drill rest him and he dies. I did that twice to Junebug to win the match.

 

[Flayl]

Regardless if I used Diddy as a secondary Jigglypuff was my main in this tournament and I got that far from her. Do you see any other F tier character in the top 48 regardless if they had a secondary or not? No you didn't. The only other low tier character there was Ness(Smash64) and Luigi(Boss) who both got the same placing as I did.

Just wanna point out Vex got 13th with DDD/Bowser.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Just wanna point out Vex got 13th with DDD/Bowser.

Except that it was the other way around for him. His secondary was Bowser and he mained DDD. I mained Jiggly and secondaried Diddy because I used jigglypuff more.

My character being Jiggly/Diddy is different than Diddy/Jiggly

your point would have been valid if Vex was Bowser/DDD

 

[Nidtendofreak]

And Kirk got 9th at some huge multistate tournament going solo Ike as well. Phase 4 maybe? I seriously can not remember which tournament for the life of me.

Point is: one tournament isn't going to change anyone's minds about any character. Particularly if there was secondaries involved.

 

[Flayl]

Except that it was the other way around for him. His secondary was Bowser and he mained DDD. I mained Jiggly and secondaried Diddy because I used jigglypuff more.

My character being Jiggly/Diddy is different than Diddy/Jiggly

your point would have been valid if Vex was Bowser/DDD

Fair enough.

 

[Yonder]

The only other low tier character there was Ness(Smash64) and Luigi(Boss) who both got the same placing as I did.

Luigi isn't low tier...

 

[Jigglymaster]

Luigi isn't low tier...

You know what I mean, hes mid so thats somewhat the same. When I meant low I mean C tier and lower. I got the same placing as Boss's Luigi with Jigglypuff.

 

[Flayl]

He's low tier only for the purpose of this discussion. Low tier here meaning "isn't expected to place well".

edit: this is what I get for tabbed browsing.

 

[Yonder]

He's low tier only for the purpose of this discussion. Low tier here meaning "isn't expected to place well".

edit: this is what I get for tabbed browsing.

Oh, I guess that makes more sense then, my bad

 

[BSP]

New Tier List-


1. MK
2. Diddy

and then other characters

It's clear that Diddy will be rising, but to 2nd is still debatable.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I feel that Wolf is just underrepresented at the moment, and can move up a few spots once people use him. Luigi is the same way, as are Yoshi, Mario, and Jigglypuff in the lower end of the tiers, but the latter three will never reach out of low tier (unless Mario comes up with something huge)

Meh.

^this
10this's!

wolf is sorely underused and has all the tools he needs to get around the things that trouble him like Cg's and tilt locks. he has some really bad MU's like D3 but its tolerable to the point that you can win if you play gay enough. (hey the D3 will be gay, so will the wolf)
its tough to catch a good wolf thanks to his great air mobility. Wolf isn't nearly as bad as this tier list would say he is, not that his place is terrible but he deserves more

Wolf is ****ed over by several stupdiities

The trouble is you assume that his ways around say, a DDD cg, are impossible to be countered. It only takes for DDD to corner a Wolf once to pretty much take the stock. Sheik's tilt lock is the same, but Sheik is also one of them most agile in the game, so avoiding a fast long ranged move is a challenge.

D3 one grab doesn't equal a stock. WTF. Wolf is agile too.

this is true but i was just saying, the one high tier character that gives him a really hard time (except maybe pika) and by hard time i mean unbearable CAN be got around, not that its easy and its sad but true that one grab from a D3 is a stock for wolf. I've never played a really good D3 but I've played ones who're good enough to cg me to death and the combination of wolfs aerial speed, his bair, jumpshine, the blaster and his great punishers makes this match up a lot easier to deal with than most people think.
its the same with sheik, she has nothing on wolf (he has better priority, range, killing power, knockback, damage, and weight) over her, the only thing to look out for is the ftilt which is not that hard to get around especially if that's all the sheik is going for.
I'm not sure but doesn't the lock have to take place at a fairly low % to actually lock him in? I'm pretty biased about wolf but so far I haven't seen any reason for him to not be at least mid to high C tier at least

One grab is not a stock. Idiot.

Sheik's speed allows her to close in the distance against Wolf's GTFO/zoning tools quite well.
Her punishment game i.e. one 5 frame ftilt thats safe on shield = stock.
But her bair does fine against Wolf's, and her fair angles in ways that can win the aerial trade, needles shows wolf's ground manouverability weaknesses, all her grabs place wolf in terrible positions...

Wolf can't force Sheik to approach, which really messes with Wolf... hard.

He surely can. Sheik has needles. Wolf has lasers. But who has a reflector? Wolf gets lead with reflected needle and runs away. Ugh. Also a grounded Wolf that shields doesn't get tilt locked.

Priority - Doesn't really exist. As neither are particularly disjointed with their attacks, speed is what matters, and Sheik has that as her main strength.
Range - Not to the point it matter, Sheik has really solid range.
Killpower - Ftilt lock to Usmash tipper says hi. Oh, and she's one of the best gimpers in the game.
Knockback - she combos well because she has so little in everything but her few kill moves.
Damage - see above. Sheik has a load of true combos.
Weight - true. However, it is part of what makes Wolf so easy to Ftilt lock, combined with how fast he falls.

Wolf has a load of good things for him, but they all work against him in various matchups. His offense is fine, but his defensive capabilities are not strong enough against other people's offensive options.

And yes they do need to be at a fairly low % (or the Ftilt needs to be decayed), but it only needs to hit once to make it guaranteed. For example, the Fox vs Sheik matchup would be in Foxes slight favour. However, Sheik needs to get to 27% with needles and jabs (which is really easy) and then walk after Fox and land a single Ftilt to take the stock. It only takes a landing to be read once for the stock to go.

Wolf needs to be at 40%. Sheik sucks and is far worst then Wolf.

I think this is really funny to see Goldenadepts arguments, because it doesn't really matter; it is similar to saying "DK sure has a great bair, it out ranges D3's bair and spaces well." which is nice, except for the fact that he is still gonna get grabbed and then CGed to death. However for this case, it is sheiks ftilt; it doesn't matter whose fair is better, because sheik is going for that ftilt and will eventually land it. It is much faster then your reaction speed, it has enough range that avoiding it entirely isn't possible all match, and it is safe on shield because of its speed. It is, in other words, a good move, which is definitely going to hit if sheik is determined to land it, because wolf lacks the options to avoid it. And because landing it is so deadly, and it is going to land alot, wolf loses this matchup hard. Stating that some of his other moves are better then some of hers is just a strawman to avoid the fact that the one tool that imbalances this matchup so much exists.


But have fun theorycrafting Golden. In a serious match for a tourney you wouldn't use wolf against sheik despite all your arguments about it, and I think that speaks volumes in itself about the matchup.

I would use Wolf vs Sheik in tourney and have. I beat Sheiks. The only Sheik to beat me in tourney was Snakeee who is far better then me anyway so the skillgap of players was a huge factor.

Sheik's Ftilt is not safe on Wolf's shield.

Rant:

Also, things being safe on block is obviously excellent, but, you can be safe on block, and still at a frame disadvantage. This is normally the case and it's still bad. That's the problem with Brawl in general. You attacked someone's shield with good spacing, they blocked, you remained safe from direct punishment, but you're now in a disadvantageous situation. Grats.

It's no coincidence that the best character's in this game, do the best job of circumventing this.

Ether thanks for being the only one here who made actual sense in a short sweet smart post.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

I used alot of wolf at pound and so did seagull but neither of us all wolf

 

[Seagull Joe]

I used alot of wolf at pound and so did seagull but neither of us all wolf

True true. I think all Wolf's matchups are "manageable", but having a secondary like Mk always makes things safer when you need to win a match. Like I will always go Mk on a D3 rather then use Wolf because that matchup is so difficult.

 

[Tristan_win]

Sigh. I am one of the only Wolfs placing with just Wolf.


Wolf needs to be at 40%. Sheik sucks and is far worst then Wolf.

Funny, I recall just last week I ask what you thought about Sheik compared to wolf and you said they were about even.

 

[DMG]

No one cares, Wolf loses to Shiek.

There. Goooooooooooooooooood game Smashboards.

A Wolf that shields... gets grabbed... which puts you in the air... which means when you have to land.... FTILT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNN!!!!

Flarble - --- - --- - Garble -- - ---- - -- --- - - - -- - Garble!

Don't question me, my word is law. Shiek beats Wolf. The end. Of this story. And this argument.

 

[-Mars-]

I would use Wolf vs Sheik in tourney and have. I beat Sheiks. The only Sheik to beat me in tourney was Snakeee who is far better then me anyway so the skillgap of players was a huge factor.


Ether thanks for being the only one here who made actual sense in a short sweet smart post.

Lol Snakeee beat you with Sheik? Lol his sheik is ok but nothing impressive lmao. This is why people shouldn't comment on matchups that they don't understand. Go play Neo and then get back to us.

Edit: You just said you go all WOlf but now you use MK for DDD? gtfo. you can't say all Wolf's matchups are manageable when your using secondaries. Lol people are dumb.

 

[DMG]

Or go play Light.

He doesn't f*** around.