PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Rubyiris]

The one time I met M2k @ Devastation, he was pretty awesome.

Too bad I was too nervous to ask Taj to let me have a few matches with him. Kinda hard to approach your favorite smasher, especially after he just got done ****** your Falco inspiration (Forward).

@PP:

Sure it's a competitive game, but its unhealthy to withhold knowledge. Sharing knowledge is vital in progressing the metagame.

 

[Fernandez]

I need advice vs fox, I'm so bad vs him =/
I seriously dunno how to aproach cuz fox can always jump instantly oos with full jump and if you approach wrong with shorthop aerial you get daired or something and that leads to lots of damage combos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYGBeK3KehI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc_E5Uw9lJk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9TikooJXiw&feature=related

I know I messed up edgegaurds and I know what to do against it next time, I just need some tips on on stage beating Fox, I can only think of more predicting full jumps next time but that's not really something I can rely on

 

[ksizl4life]

I disagree did you know that I teach people stuff ALL the time just to be nice? Ask Ally, Anti, ADHD, Tyrant, DSF, Ksizzle, Inui, Dojo, shugo, Cactuar, Lord Knight, hell even Hungrybox, among many others I can't think of off the top of my head. I only do it to be nice and share knowledge. I know it can be used against me but I still do that to help them. I don't tell them "this is my weakness" but I tell then "this is good, or you do this wrong and should maybe do this instead" etc.

you don't have to I just thought you would. If you're that strongly against it then just don't

name search bomb ftw

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

The one time I met M2k @ Devastation, he was pretty awesome.

Too bad I was too nervous to ask Taj to let me have a few matches with him. Kinda hard to approach your favorite smasher, especially after he just got done ****** your Falco inspiration (Forward).

@PP:

Sure it's a competitive game, but its unhealthy to withhold knowledge. Sharing knowledge is vital in progressing the metagame.

He was at my monthly before last ****** everybody. I asked him to play friendlies every chance i could. Don't let pro's make you nervous, that's a contribution to your nerves you referred to awhile back. See them like..reg smashers who aren't bad at the game, i dunno. Just don't see them like elitists..their not, and in the end you'll feel more comfortable =D if you can't tell yourself that, then just go play friendlies with pros every chance you get, it'll fix some nerves.

I also played hugs few days ago in tourny..before i'd be nervous as **** to just ask him to play, but then you gotta realize, it's not worth getting so worked up about, it's just smash, realize you don't need to impress peepz. get a good mental train going :D i felt completely comfortable playing hugs in tourny.

/rant


edit; this is kinda general advice towards anxiety in tourny. it was a major reason for me losing tournament constantly to people i know i ****, and i'm sure other people can relate.

 

[Jake13]

Trahhh are you going to pound?

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i'd love to. depends on my money situation n stuff, but i'll be attempting to go

but i'm definitely going to dgdtJ.

 

[Niko45]

I have to agree with PP, it is kind of weird to be asking the guy who beat you in GF for advice. I mean when you're that good, you shouldn't really have a problem figuring out your own mistakes, not to mention there's tons of other people you could turn to for advice besides the guy who JUST beat you. Does no one else think it's weird to be saying (seriously) "Hey, how do I beat you?"

 

[Mogwai]

It's a little weird, but from my M2K experience, he doesn't mean any harm from asking about it. He's really just looking to further his understanding of the matchups, but I think it's fine for PP to not wanna discuss it.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

I think it's very respectable for an amazing player like M2k to be able to ask another player for advice.
He basically is admitting that you're better in the matchup, not johning at all.

Why does it matter if he JUST beat him? It's not like they play eachother in nationals once a week. They won't see eachother in tourny for awhile i'm sure.

You say 'seriously' but M2k isn't 'seriously' asking how to directly beat PP, that's stupid.

Not helping another player is basically like admitting that at full potential they'll beat you. being the best means beating everybody at their full potential

 

[FoxLisk]

i think the problem here is that for everyone except the top like 5 or MAYBE 10 players, this game is a hobby that we play because we want to improve at it. for those players, it's a serious competition and there's money and status on the line. If I tell someone I beat in tourney how to play better against falco, neither of us loses anything and we have a nice chat; if Dr. PP gives away his tactics, that's just telling his opponents how to defeat all the strategies he's worked to develop, making it dramatically harder for him to hold his top spot.

at the top of the metagame, the winning players are the ones who come up with new strategies and refute their opponents' the fastest and most efficiently, and explaining how to do so to your opponent is just giving them a huge leg up.

There's no reason not to do so if you want to, but I think it's entirely reasonable of PP to say he doesn't want to help M2K in this situation.

 

[Mew2King]

u dont punish it

....

unless u wanna randomly jump fair OOS lol

 

[Rubyiris]

hey trahh I'm probably gonna be at dont go down there jeff.

Imma **** you in Falco dittos son. (:

 

[Niko45]

I think it's very respectable for an amazing player like M2k to be able to ask another player for advice.
He basically is admitting that you're better in the matchup, not johning at all.

Why does it matter if he JUST beat him? It's not like they play eachother in nationals once a week. They won't see eachother in tourny for awhile i'm sure.

You say 'seriously' but M2k isn't 'seriously' asking how to directly beat PP, that's stupid.

Not helping another player is basically like admitting that at full potential they'll beat you. being the best means beating everybody at their full potential

This seems pretty backwards. Someone you play constantly is someone I'd think you'd want to build up and train with to make you as good as possible. Someone you play 3 times a year deep in bracket at national tournaments...does not seem like the kind of person you want to be helping out and advancing the metagame with or whatever. Not to harp on this cause its really not that big of a deal either way.

 

[choknater]

just depends on the player

giving advice is helpful for the metagame/competition in general, but may not be beneficial for the player giving it

i play ic's so lots of people have trouble. so when people ask me for tips on how to beat me, my favorite honest response is "i dont know, i dont play against ics a lot"

 

[ANTi_]

I disagree did you know that I teach people stuff ALL the time just to be nice? Ask Ally, Anti, ADHD, Tyrant, DSF, Ksizzle, Inui, Dojo, shugo, Cactuar, Lord Knight, hell even Hungrybox, among many others I can't think of off the top of my head. I only do it to be nice and share knowledge. I know it can be used against me but I still do that to help them. I don't tell them "this is my weakness" but I tell then "this is good, or you do this wrong and should maybe do this instead" etc.

you don't have to I just thought you would. If you're that strongly against it then just don't

Wow i was high to the point where this post was hilarious last night.

M2K's angry voice just played over in my head while reading this, especially the "hell even hungrybox" part LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.

 

[stingers]

i cant believe pp wont help m2k...wow...

 

[tarheeljks]

This seems pretty backwards. Someone you play constantly is someone I'd think you'd want to build up and train with to make you as good as possible. Someone you play 3 times a year deep in bracket at national tournaments...does not seem like the kind of person you want to be helping out and advancing the metagame with or whatever. Not to harp on this cause its really not that big of a deal either way.

i don't think there's a right or wrong here. i think it's cool that m2k is down to chat w/a competitor b/c i have a similar nature and think that this sort of action is a large factor in keeping the game fresh and exciting, but i also recognize that there are clear incentives for players not to swap strats. wanting to protect an edge is as reasonable as wanting to help other players, advance the collective metagame, etc. both positions are justifiable

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i'd say it's as reasonable only if you're in it for the money, reasoning doesn't matter, if you need money you need money.

i think not helping others just to keep yourself ahead of everyone else especially when you love this game as much as you, is selfish..it's one thing to be too busy, or not caring enough to help[like mango], but this is clearly different

PP said he's not in it for the money...so he's trying to prove himself to everyone else so bad to the point where he won't help fellow good players 'possibly' surpass him? What other reasoning could it be?

jus' sayin.

i think everyone's gonna hate me for going against pp on this D:


also don't take this too serious please. i'm not trying to start a flame war, or get anyone angry at eachother. i just was discussing, certain topics interest me and i'm curious on other views so i continue topic.

 

[Rubyiris]

I'm for the development of SSBM's metagame, so I'm against PP on this.

 

[Mogwai]

easy for you to say trahh. That's bull**** and oversimplifying stop being a prick and taking some stance that says PP's obligated to help unless he's greedy or a *****.

hate to be harsh but I find your stance really unfair to PP.

 

[stingers]

i dunno i think all players have an obligation to help when asked
it's only common courtesy

if someone asked you to help them lift something and you clearly had nowhere to go would you be like "Nah I'm good"? No you'd look like a prick.

 

[Palpi]

i dunno i think all players have an obligation to help when asked
it's only common courtesy

I agree with this!

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm just gonna say that it seems ridiculous to help someone you're competing against at the highest level since this a competition and that goes completely against the competitive spirit of the game.

Advancing the metagame is a fine goal and all but that'll happen regardless.

If you hate me for thinking this....then I guess that sucks for me. I really like M2K and the smash community but I'm also competing because I want to be really good, and directly helping someone at my level when I'm close to the top(who I thought was retiring anyway?) just doesn't seem to make sense.

If there's some mass outcry for it then I guess I'll think about it again when the videos come out.

 

[DJRome]

i dunno i think all players have an obligation to help when asked
it's only common courtesy

if someone asked you to help them lift something and you clearly had nowhere to go would you be like "Nah I'm good"? No you'd look like a prick.

lol stingers stop trollin

it is clear pp has somewhere to go in your example in that he loses out if he helps m2k unlike ur example

 

[Palpi]

I agree with both of you on this, actually. If Mew2king asked a more specific question...but he kind of said "tell me all of my bad habits" or something like that. Do as you please...and it seems like you have your mind set on not dissecting his play...and that is fine.

The way I see it, on a level of being a nice person, you should do it...but competitively...I agree it does not make much sense. I certainly would do it...but that is just speculation considering I am not one of the best in the world.

@Mew2king - ask someone else! =]

 

[stingers]

lol stingers stop trollin

it is clear pp has somewhere to go in your example in that he loses out if he helps m2k unlike ur example

very true dj. but does that make it right? i guess if u value the money over the competitive spirit.

 

[Rubyiris]

I'm just gonna say that it seems ridiculous to help someone you're competing against at the highest level since this a competition and that goes completely against the competitive spirit of the game.

Advancing the metagame is a fine goal and all but that'll happen regardless.

If you hate me for thinking this....then I guess that sucks for me. I really like M2K and the smash community but I'm also competing because I want to be really good, and directly helping someone at my level when I'm close to the top(who I thought was retiring anyway?) just doesn't seem to make sense.

If there's some mass outcry for it then I guess I'll think about it again when the videos come out.

If you help M2K out, and you can't beat him afterward, you should just step your game up again. Don't be a greedy mofo.

 

[Mew2King]

fine do what u want

 

[stingers]

its only human nature ruby. when person A works hard for something and person B gets it handed to them, person A resents/is jealous of person B for not having to work as hard as they did. no johns tho =/

 

[DJRome]

the competitive spirit is to bring what you have to the table. it never necessarily involved helping anyone

 

[Dr Peepee]

I said I'd revisit the issue when the vids came out.

That's what I'm going to do.

 

[mers]

PeePee can do whatever he wants, y'all.

That said, I think it'd be really cool to hear/read two players of that level talking about their set against each other, while having the videos to watch. Kinda like when people commentate their own matches, or that Smash podcast thing where they rewatch a video and talk about it, but with a give and take between both players, not just one.

IDK. Even if it's not what you want to do right now, I think it'd be tight if it happened for anyone.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm not sure why M2K can't consult someone else.

 

[Palpi]

I'm not sure why M2K can't consult someone else.

That's what i said!!!!

No one listens to Gandalf.

 

[FoxLisk]

If you help M2K out, and you can't beat him afterward, you should just step your game up again. Don't be a greedy mofo.

but that's not fair. that's basically stepping up M2K's game FOR HIM and then having to beat your own analysis. It's not the top players' duty to be two steps ahead of themselves. If PP is currently the dominant player, he's earned it, and he shouldnt have to throw that away because of community pressure to like "be a nice guy bro or else you're a greedy prick who only cares about the money." If he wants to help out, that's cool too, but if he doesn't want to basically sabotage all of his own hard work, that seems pretty reasonable.

 

[Niko45]

It's not any one player's responsibility to make sure his competition is as challenging as can possibly be. This is a competition.

Especially if the info you're trading is up throw - dair works on Marth, I mean is that a joke? I guess the equivalent tip would be "chaingrabbing is pretty good" or something.

Pretty baffled by people actually aggressively saying PP should help M2K. How is it not obvious that that's not in PP's interest, nor his responsibility?

 

[wardobuffalo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMG4Qa4vmOo&feature=related BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM tuff actin tinactin

 

[KirbyKaze]

That's what i said!!!!

No one listens to Gandalf.

you were out of character and far too cryptic in the 3rd movie so nobody likes you anymore

 

[JPOBS]

I'm just gonna say that it seems ridiculous to help someone you're competing against at the highest level since this a competition and that goes completely against the competitive spirit of the game.

Advancing the metagame is a fine goal and all but that'll happen regardless.

First of all, I have no "feelings" about this topic either way, but it is interesting and discussing topics like this are entertaining and enligtening, i hate when people (not you pp, just ppl in general) start to get offended or feel like someone is being abrasive just because they are offering a different point of view than the one they currently hold (as Trahh is doing, and multiple people getting butthurt about it)


Secondly, i have to chime in that i disagree with both these statements.
This first paragraph, i dont see how it goes completely against the competitive spirit. "competitive spirit" as I imagine it is the thrill of beating someone at their best, when you are at your best. If you happen to know something tht could potentially increase the capability of the opponent, but you are without the information intentionally, then i'd say THAT goes against the "competitive spirit" because you are effectively intentionally limiting competition by preventing your opponent from being able to perform better.

Its no different than if i play a complete scrub in melee, and he asks "how do oyu move so fast" but i refuse to tell him about l-cancelling and wavedashing, just for the sake that i can continually beat him. Its not "competitive spirit" to hold him in his current state of ignorance. True competitive spirit would be encouraging him to rise his skill, and then beating him anyway.

the second statement i disagree with simply because I personally dont see how "the metagame will evolve anyway", and you didnt really explain how.

Please note that I have nothing personal against your decision, I'm just offering ym view. I actually dont really mind either way if you respond to this, you don't need to explain yourself, and I certainly dont hate you either way.

Also, I understand the reasoning that this is a competition and its not your responsibility to make your opponents better, however not doing so on the basis of "competitive spirit" is flawed in my eyes, but I have no qualm with the actual decision, just the reasoning behind it.

 

[Palpi]

I think the (random sports teams) Yankees should tell the redsox how to beat them.