KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Ask them politely to stop
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
JPOBS
Smash Hero
Run up CC seems like it could be pretty neat vs retreating fair too.
Niko45
Smash Master
I guess it depends on the setup. As long as you've got the proper distance, (I'd say maybe like 1.5 Marth wavedashes away?) lasering a shielding Marth is already a mini victory cause he's already missed his powershield if he went for that and now he needs to figure out how to get out of shield with no real way to directly hit falco. I guess in situations where you don't have as much time to setup control it's more of an issue.
makoforce
Smash Ace
Forward will always be the best falco
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Marth's retreating fair OoS isn't such a big deal for one main reason:
He forfeits stage control. Yeah, there are several ways around it that have already been mentioned... but just let him do it, imo. Marth doesn't really like cornering himself, as the more room he has, the deadlier he is; that said, if falco has marth in a corner, it severely limits marths options.
Poor marth, not being as good a character as falco =/
He forfeits stage control. Yeah, there are several ways around it that have already been mentioned... but just let him do it, imo. Marth doesn't really like cornering himself, as the more room he has, the deadlier he is; that said, if falco has marth in a corner, it severely limits marths options.
Poor marth, not being as good a character as falco =/
JPOBS
Smash Hero
lol DF weren't you the one saying before rom how marth wins all his matcups or something?
how did that go for u?
how did that go for u?
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
technically speaking it's all opinion, and if we're going by smarts then marth is the best character [according to the best player]!
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Generally anything Marth can do Fox can do better.
Please note the "Generally" before trying to refute my post.
Please note the "Generally" before trying to refute my post.
AvengerAngel
Smash Journeyman
real talk <3
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
My opinion before rom, and after rom hasn't changed. It is as follows:
Marth goes even with fox and falco (and any tiny advantages to make it 51-49 or something, I'm treating as unimportant for the most run).
Marth loses to sheik, but not by a significant margin; it is as playable as any other high tier disadvantaged matchup and there's no reason to act otherwise (marth players tend to ***** about it).
Marth is either the third or fourth best in the game, I'm not sure if I think sheik is better or not.
Marth beats everyone else: jiggs, peach, falcon, ganon, ICs, doc, samus.
That said... he's not as good a character as falco, who I don't think loses to anyone (except maybe fox, I'm not sure yet).
So... "Poor marth, not being as good a character as falco =/"
JPOBS
Smash Hero
cool, my opinion is almost exactly the same on all fronts except i think he loses to puff, goes dead even with falcon, and is 5th behind both sheik and puff.
but your opinions aren't unreasonable by any means.
but your opinions aren't unreasonable by any means.
makoforce
Smash Ace
ROM 3 grand final vids are the best matches in melee history....
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Mango Armada GF set 1 @ Genesis beats Rom3 GF hands down, as does Mango M2K @ P3.
Winston
Smash Master
Those are pretty big differences imo. Difference between 3rd and 5th is huge.
ROM 3 GFs are pretty overrated ><
I guess the long drought of good finals makes them seem that much more epic...
there's no puff in RoM 3 GF -_-
you can call it overrated all you want, but there are some ill combos and the general pace is really entertaining, whereas Genesis was really only epic for The Rest Heard Round The World the stitchface 0-death. P3 was too loaded on gay stages for my taste, even though there were some really sick moments like the arwing rest.
Basically puff finals are good for a few really epic moments, typically involving absurd rests, but there's too much jarring around in the neutral position spacing bairs and crap to keep the excitement up. Finals between some combination of Marth/Sheik/Fox/Falco tend to be more entertaining IMO because the pace of all the matchups is much quicker and tiny mistakes tend to be instantly and entertainingly punished by extended combos/tech chases. Not to mention edge guarding is a real thing is these matchups, which adds that tension as soon as someone gets knocked off stage.
you can call it overrated all you want, but there are some ill combos and the general pace is really entertaining, whereas Genesis was really only epic for The Rest Heard Round The World the stitchface 0-death. P3 was too loaded on gay stages for my taste, even though there were some really sick moments like the arwing rest.
Basically puff finals are good for a few really epic moments, typically involving absurd rests, but there's too much jarring around in the neutral position spacing bairs and crap to keep the excitement up. Finals between some combination of Marth/Sheik/Fox/Falco tend to be more entertaining IMO because the pace of all the matchups is much quicker and tiny mistakes tend to be instantly and entertainingly punished by extended combos/tech chases. Not to mention edge guarding is a real thing is these matchups, which adds that tension as soon as someone gets knocked off stage.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
combos aren't everything, Mogwai. You're seriously downplaying the intensity of genesis GF set 1 just because it lacked combos.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
Genesis grand finals were only really amazing because of it being Armada. It was intense given the situation, not really the match itself.
Niko45
Smash Master
Seriously. The fact that there was no puff was more than I could ever hope for. The fact that it was really close was just bonus for me. Plus, Marth v Falco is like the most fun matchup ever.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
It was a really good GF but I think a few things contribute to its "overratedness"
First being that we haven't had a good GF in like a year. And second being that its the most recent, so people are quick to label it as the best.
Regardless, i think "Best sets of all time" period is a better measuring stick than just GF, cuz amazing things happen in sets all the time that arent GF. Like M2k vs Shiz Rom1 as just one example.
First being that we haven't had a good GF in like a year. And second being that its the most recent, so people are quick to label it as the best.
Regardless, i think "Best sets of all time" period is a better measuring stick than just GF, cuz amazing things happen in sets all the time that arent GF. Like M2k vs Shiz Rom1 as just one example.
Jake13
Smash Lord
rom3 was the best GFs i've seen all year. hands down.
more importantly it was like 9 effing matches.
hype
more importantly it was like 9 effing matches.
hype
Kason Birdman
Smash Champion
I agree nuckar.
The only problem is the crouch undergrab -> rest.
On the topic of epic sets. mango vs armada, genesis and shiz vs m2k, rom **** all other sets.
mango m2k from P3 is pretty gud also. pretty much if it has mango back when he didn't COMPLETELY destroy everything or m2k then its a good set.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
With the correct spacing, dash grab beats crouching jigglypuff.
I've been saying this for a long time, have tested it, and have had someone grabbing my crouching jigglypuff with 100% consistency. Either my melee's broken, or SWF WANTS jiggs to be that good
Kason Birdman
Smash Champion
Actually I have been under the belief that dash grab could grab crouching jiggs also. So would that mean you recommend marths in the match up to never JC grabs?
Niko45
Smash Master
I thought if the jiggs ducked right as you grabbed you still can't grab her. I was under the impression the initial frames of her duck can't be grabbed, and once she's just sitting in duck then dash grab works. Are you sure about this?
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
The match was amazing. Get your head out of your ***.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
I was talking about the part where she's already ducking. I've rarely had the problem that she crouches RIGHT as I'm grabbing her (though I could see that being a problem for sure).
It just feels that, watching hbox, he usually anticipates grabs, rather than crouches right at the moment where you grab; I could be wrong, idk.
But the part about running, yeah for sure. I tried playing jiggs vs a friend the other day, and just got constantly grabbed --> pivot fsmashed because I was so used to being able to crouch under people's grabs =/
But Niko, you abuse the dash grab thing at all? Or are they never preemptively crouching vs you? >_<
Kason Birdman
Smash Champion
genesis gf were sooo good.
well.. the first set anyway.
well.. the first set anyway.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
Excuse me, don't give me attitude when I haven't said anything offending to you.
Yes, the match was amazing, but I still strongly feel that it was only because of the circumstances. Label that match as two different players in second round of winners, no one would say it was such a great match.
Niko45
Smash Master
lol I'm bad at *not* jc grabbing.
If I see jiggs just sitting in duck I'll usually try to dtilt her or something cause its kinda free, as opposed to trying dash grab. I think Marth's grab game vs Jiggs is a critical part of that matchup, though. They really make your life easier if you can get them, and obviously getting duck rested is extremely bad, so knowing exactly when you have them and when you don't is big. I've definitely grabbed hbox before, so it can certainly be done (though he's duck rested me far more lol), its just about knowing when its there. I'm bad at that matchup, though.
He also loves to do that aerial in front of your shield -> duck which is really gay. Dead if you shield grab.
If I see jiggs just sitting in duck I'll usually try to dtilt her or something cause its kinda free, as opposed to trying dash grab. I think Marth's grab game vs Jiggs is a critical part of that matchup, though. They really make your life easier if you can get them, and obviously getting duck rested is extremely bad, so knowing exactly when you have them and when you don't is big. I've definitely grabbed hbox before, so it can certainly be done (though he's duck rested me far more lol), its just about knowing when its there. I'm bad at that matchup, though.
He also loves to do that aerial in front of your shield -> duck which is really gay. Dead if you shield grab.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
I have this nasty habit of boost grabbing. It's pretty much my default, instead of JC grabbing.
Even though it does help sometimes, I need to stop that.
Even though it does help sometimes, I need to stop that.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
if that exact match happened at any point of the tournament it would have been just as amazing to behold.
Stop undermining what is easily the best GF to ever happen.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
I'm sorry, but I disagree.
End of discussion, I suppose. Nowhere else we can go from here.
But I will say that I'm really not trying to undermine it. I'm with you on that it was extremely hype and an extremely intense set. I was super excited the whole way through. However, it is still my opinion that this is mainly due to the circumstances of the players, the tournament, the crowd, and all of those other factors outside of the match itself. Sorry?
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
I'm awful at *not* JC grabbing as well.
Dair OoS anyone? XDDD
It was the best way to actually punish him sitting there crouching, and even then I'm not satisfied with it. I only got 2 stocked in a matchup I don't know though... so I did okay I guess?
Idk, hbox is good vs marth, and no marth players are good vs jiggs. What do we do? (Pick fox)
Dair OoS anyone? XDDD
It was the best way to actually punish him sitting there crouching, and even then I'm not satisfied with it. I only got 2 stocked in a matchup I don't know though... so I did okay I guess?
Idk, hbox is good vs marth, and no marth players are good vs jiggs. What do we do? (Pick fox
)
*****, if I wanted to watch spacing matches I'd go to SF4. I watch smash for the speed and combos, and in my opinion, you're seriously downplaying that. You watch your 6 minute Puff vs. Peach spacing games sans combos and edgeguarding and I'll watch my sublime 3 minute Falco vs. Marth/Sheik games.
I understand the merits of both, but it's ridiculous to say that one is objectively better than the other. I explained why the majority is so excited about this set and it's fine to disagree, but it's not fine to act like we should all be pining for the days of Peach vs. Jiggs finals.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Of course we don't want to see puff vs juggs, but that match was amazing.
Doesn't lose much stage control like I already said, and it forces Falco to reconsider his approaches a lot. The more he has to think, the more breathing room Marth gets, and the more he can get Falco while he's thinking or throw in different baits with higher success rates.
Marth>Falco idgaf
LOL I wish I could give such a great thing to the community man, but I'm really happy you feel that way. =)
Niko45
Smash Master
I mean doesn't retreat fair oos work in the exact same situations where WD back oos grab would work? I don't feel like fair oos brings anything unique to the table.
It seems to me like all those things are overloaded options that work against the same type of (misspaced?) falco approach, and don't work against good approaches.
It seems to me like all those things are overloaded options that work against the same type of (misspaced?) falco approach, and don't work against good approaches.
Not exactly. Fair can stuff overshot approaches that could beat things like WD OOS grab...usually before they happen in a way.
Plus, you can whiff that grab pretty easily with Marth's longer WD(which I know can be controlled, but people aren't always thinking about that when they're reacting).
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
@PP
How does marth not lose stage control? Maybe not on a huge stage like FD or DL64...
But let's say from a neutral position, 50/50 stage control. If marth short hops backward OoS and fairs, he's losing a pretty good amount, relatively speaking. I mean, you won't be on FD anyway, and FoD YS and BF are all pretty damn small.
Plus, if the falco doesn't approach, it just resets the neutral position, except marth now has less room. I mean, falco might not win the entire stage, but if he didn't approach at that moment I'm not sure what marth gains by:
-resetting neutral position
-losing ground
Honestly, all he does is cut off his options, because if he retreats even more, he FURTHER corners himself. I mean, sure it stuffs approaches, but if you don't approach it hardly puts marth in a good position.
How does marth not lose stage control? Maybe not on a huge stage like FD or DL64...
But let's say from a neutral position, 50/50 stage control. If marth short hops backward OoS and fairs, he's losing a pretty good amount, relatively speaking. I mean, you won't be on FD anyway, and FoD YS and BF are all pretty damn small.
Plus, if the falco doesn't approach, it just resets the neutral position, except marth now has less room. I mean, falco might not win the entire stage, but if he didn't approach at that moment I'm not sure what marth gains by:
-resetting neutral position
-losing ground
Honestly, all he does is cut off his options, because if he retreats even more, he FURTHER corners himself. I mean, sure it stuffs approaches, but if you don't approach it hardly puts marth in a good position.